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Thread: EPF 2016 dividend

  1. #31
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    That is a curry paste where I copied and paste the links which is the expressions of the "experts" as they are from the The Star and other credible publication. there is another publication from Malaysia Chronicle on EPF but the link could not be curry paste with headlines EPF BOOKS SHOCK RM8.17BIL LOSS DUE TO PLUNGING ... http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/ep...-share-market/ Why is it a problem to your goodness?

    It is up to the readers to decide and for me to know if the expresso is foamy. If it is not good , kindly clarify. As far as I know I am not cooking stories.....just raising the issue which is beyond my comprehension After all, I am one of the stakeholder of Pomzi mutual fund. The free expression is within the rights to express what is going on board.

    The forum is for those less learned and for those who are good enough to korek it. I dun have a problem to learn what is wrong and right with EPF is doing.
    Last edited by zinglicious; 20-02-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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  2. #32
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    These info are from kwsp website.
    This is such a negative surprise for me. Gross income was 46.5 bio but dividend payable only 37 bio.
    Investment assets stood at 731 bio, while members' claim is 704 bio. Keeping a buffer of 27 bio. Isnt this robbing peter (contributors now) to pay paul (future contributors)?

    5.7% is a huge disappointment. Now wondering if should withdraw it out and investment directly.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinglicious View Post
    That is a curry paste where I copied and paste the links which is the expressions of the "experts" as they are from the The Star and other credible publication. there is another publication from Malaysia Chronicle on EPF but the link could not be curry paste with headlines EPF BOOKS SHOCK RM8.17BIL LOSS DUE TO PLUNGING ... http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/ep...-share-market/ Why is it a problem to your goodness?

    It is up to the readers to decide and for me to know if the expresso is foamy. If it is not good....
    For the sake of my reading pressure, I sincerely hope you do not post and/or reply in thread started by me. I believe you have an incredibly unique way in expressing your thoughts that ordinary average folks like me find it difficult and challenging to comprehend.

    I'm sorry that I'm not in the same class with you. Hence I can't understand your posts and I seriously think I should not waste your time.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by opulant View Post
    My expectation is 6.1%. I think the net impairment of 8.17 billion is the main reason of lower dividend. Of course, in anticipating of a worse 2017, keeping some of the 2016 income as not to look terribly bad in 2017 dividend payout can be the reason too.

    " As at 31 December 2016, a total of 48.58% of the EPF investment asset was invested in fixed income instruments and 42.33% in Equities, while the remaining 4.03% and 5.06% were in Real Estate & Infrastructure and Money Market Instruments respectively. Therefore, it is natural that the EPF�s investment performance to be skewed towards fixed income returns. In accordance with the Malaysian Financial Reporting Standards (MFRS 139), the EPF is required to recognise net impairment amounting to RM8.17 billion, compared with RM3.07 billion in 2015 to reflect the lower equity prices, particularly in the domestic banking sector and oil & gas sectors in both the domestic and foreign markets. "


    http://www.kwsp.gov.my/portal/en/new...etailPage=true

    When I read the KWSP press statement on Sunday, my immediate concern is the so-called "net impairment" of RM8.17 billion mainly contributed by the under-performing local equities notably in the banking and O&G sectors. I think this year will be equally bad or even worse for local equities. As reported, close to half of EPF investment is in equities and big churn of them are in local market. Hence, next year dividend payout will not be good and this prompt me to think they are keeping some of this year money for next year.

    Although withdrawing the savings in EPF and invest in other instruments seem to be a better option at this moment as the dividend is not as attractive as before but the problem is --> it is difficult or almost not possible to find another fixed-income instrument that can yield return as good as EPF in 3-5 years period. Bonds have a long locked-in period and the yield is flat, not compounded.

    From the past 30 years, I was told all sort of negative comments of EPF when I was 20s, 30s, 40s and even now, such comments are still around. Yes, they are politicians who tried and still strying to treat EPF as their personal ATM but the political influence can't shake the EPF in big magnitude if one really look at the fund size as witnessed from the time of apanama in the 80s until now.

    I always advise my younger relatives and colleages to keep their money in EPF whenever is possible. I firmly believe if one is not too ambitious, money in EPF should remain there to reap the benefits of long term compounding. Money in FD should find a new home now either in bonds or other instruments as the FD rate is getting too low.


    and last but not least, I noticed (just my personal opinion) those who enjoy making tons of criticism on EPF normally are those who belong to a group of people that no matter how high the EPF dividend rate, it doesn't have any meaningful impact on them...

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by opulant View Post
    When I read the KWSP press statement on Sunday, my immediate concern is the so-called "net impairment" of RM8.17 billion mainly contributed by the under-performing local equities notably in the banking and O&G sectors. I think this year will be equally bad or even worse for local equities. As reported, close to half of EPF investment is in equities and big churn of them are in local market. Hence, next year dividend payout will not be good and this prompt me to think they are keeping some of this year money for next year.

    Although withdrawing the savings in EPF and invest in other instruments seem to be a better option at this moment as the dividend is not as attractive as before but the problem is --> it is difficult or almost not possible to find another fixed-income instrument that can yield return as good as EPF in 3-5 years period. Bonds have a long locked-in period and the yield is flat, not compounded.

    From the past 30 years, I was told all sort of negative comments of EPF when I was 20s, 30s, 40s and even now, such comments are still around. Yes, they are politicians who tried and still strying to treat EPF as their personal ATM but the political influence can't shake the EPF in big magnitude if one really look at the fund size as witnessed from the time of apanama in the 80s until now.

    I always advise my younger relatives and colleages to keep their money in EPF whenever is possible. I firmly believe if one is not too ambitious, money in EPF should remain there to reap the benefits of long term compounding. Money in FD should find a new home now either in bonds or other instruments as the FD rate is getting too low.


    and last but not least, I noticed (just my personal opinion) those who enjoy making tons of criticism on EPF normally are those who belong to a group of people that no matter how high the EPF dividend rate, it doesn't have any meaningful impact on them...
    I share almost the same sentiments.
    epf is about the largest institutional buyer in Bursa. They blitz in, buy/sell/buy and make a few big buck spread. When 1 have such volume to play with, i can't smirk at even a paltry 2-3% daily gain.

    Admitedly, 'short term' 3-5 yrs Bond will command a premium. But in situ the 6.1% coupon is looking to be an eye candy indeed.
    The recent retail one i posted, bond over 7 yrs is now almost fully subscribed(based on rumors) . The option of taking some hard earned moolah outta epf and redirect to this 6.1% coupon is fast running out as an option.

    Your calc /comparison is based on a 5.5% compoundable versus a fixed 6.15 non compoundable. And with the current scenario , i have my doubts on epf giving out 5.5% for the next 2-3yrs. They might be able to do this if upon gomen (of course, they will deny it) instruction, they cash out, bring home all those o/seas properties they have bought last 2 yrs. The prop gain of which might just be thru sheer slide of the Shringgit.
    So, if say even at 5% compoundable, the net will still be less than the noncompoundable 6 in total. Unless my calc is off tangent lah.
    So iF i have the moolah I will go for the latter option. With possible opportunity cost arising outta the paid coupon. no?

    I also agree that those who criticised or continue criticising epf are those with either too much or too little in there The inbetween, just twiddle their thumbs... No confidence in epf?? Well, Fat chance those Little Red Dotters or LOS invaders or even the Kominis Cina gonna be overruning & sapu all the epf...so Yes, currently it is still a gomen endorsed ponzi, esp benefitting for those enjoying life at 50 onwards...
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tupai View Post
    I.... So, if say even at 5% compoundable, the net will still be less than the noncompoundable 6 in total.

    Unless my calc is off tangent lah...
    Yes, your calculation is correct.

    Refer back to the hypothetical number of 2.1m as initial sum ... and 30% goes to a 6% coupon.

    The total gain after 7 years is 863,038. If all the 2.1m stay in EPF, the gain is 854,911.

    Over a 7 years period, the loss of 8k is pretty marginal.

    I am willing to take the risk that the EPF dividend is at least 5.5%... and even is between 5.0-5.5%, the compounding will be able to cushion the loss.

  7. #37
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    Today news ... https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nati...-next-january/

    " The Employees Provident Fund (EPF) has "enhanced and simplified" its policies to enable members aged 55 and 60 to make partial withdrawals of any amount at any time beginning next January. This is opposed to the withdrawal policies that allows members to withdraw a minimum of RM2,000 once every 30 days. "



    People at this age group (above 55 and above 60) are the worst members for ponzi scheme because they only reap dividend but do not contribute anymore !!

    Mega ponzi scheme needs to have many many young contributors (especially the statutory ponzi scheme) to continue operating. Hence, it is better these old folks withdraw all their money earliest possible as they are more liability than asset to the ponzi scheme.


    Another free advice from me to the blurred blurred simpletons....
    滔滔逝水 , 急急流年 。

  8. #38
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    EPF with MY monies to make Donald Trump and Uncle Sam great again. https://www.thestar.com.my/business/...ects-says-ceo/
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinglicious View Post
    EPF with MY monies to make Donald Trump and Uncle Sam great again. https://www.thestar.com.my/business/...ects-says-ceo/
    I don't bother where they invest/how they invest... they can go to Timbuktu to invest in diamond or go Toowoomba to invest in bat shits ....

    Btw, answer already provided loooong time ago. Please reread post #10

    Quote Originally Posted by opulant View Post
    I think is good to make life a little bit simple. ..

    They can invest in 1MDB, 2MDB, 3MDB.. etc, etc or they can take a bombardier private jet from KL to Ipoh every week just to eat chicken rice there .... it's all ok for me as long as the dividend rate is good.

    I don't think you can question your angmoh bank or the chinaman banks from the small red dot where they invest your money or how they invest your money... the same applies to EPF and I'm sure same for CPF as well...
    滔滔逝水 , 急急流年 。

  10. #40
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    for those who is worried that EPF may be a ponzi scheme (I mean a real ponzi scheme or even 1% chance it maybe), just use the indicator of total withdrawal vs contribution. As long as contribution exceeds withdrawal, why worry?

    in all earnest, everything is still ok for next 20 years. Singapore's CPF case is very different. In fact, singaporeans should be really worried. Malaysians working in singapore as well. They are doing everything they can to stop people from withdrawing. They have extremely fast aging population with very old management workforce. This part will create its own issues.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanQ View Post
    for those who is worried that EPF may be a ponzi scheme (I mean a real ponzi scheme or even 1% chance it maybe), just use the indicator of total withdrawal vs contribution. As long as contribution exceeds withdrawal, why worry?
    Yes, why worry when the contribution is more than withdrawal... and the contribution mandatory.

    On the subject of ponzi scheme... here is my post earlier (post #14)


    Quote Originally Posted by opulant View Post
    Ponzi scheme... Yes absolutely correct.

    ALL public pension schemes in this planet are ponzi schemes. As a matter of fact, government pension/retirement fund is the mother of all ponzi schemes.

    It started from Europe and grew exponentially with the baby boomers era after the WW2. Like what you said, the key is the never-ending new contributors to support the older ones. Your Malaya gomen inherited this from the Brits and your present 1gomen is harvesting the fruits now as the demographic here are predominantly young people now..

    The European governments are not so lucky. With very low birth rate and low employment rate, their younger contributors to the state pension fund are at the record low but the retired old folks who enjoy generous benefits are at the record high. So, their state ponzi scheme is going to fail and in fact, some of the person schemes had failed like in Greece.
    滔滔逝水 , 急急流年 。

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanQ View Post
    ...in all earnest, everything is still ok for next 20 years. Singapore's CPF case is very different. In fact, singaporeans should be really worried. Malaysians working in singapore as well. They are doing everything they can to stop people from withdrawing. They have extremely fast aging population with very old management workforce. This part will create its own issues.
    It will be tougher for Singaporeans than Malaysians especially when the Malaysians have the options to retire in Malaysia.

    I look at the numbers from both the rate of return and the fluctuation of the local currency. Let’s take the numbers for the past 10 years

    Epf & MYR
    - Average dividend rate for Epf in the past 10 years is 5.85%. This effectively generates 75% return after 10 years.
    - MYR weakended 22% vs the USD from 3.33 to 4.08.(Dec 2007 vs Dec 2017).

    Cpf & SGD
    - Average dividend rate for Cpf in the past 10 years is 3.45%. This effectively generates 40% return after 10 years.
    - SGD strengthened 7% vs the USD from 1.44 to 1.34 (Dec 2007 vs Dec 2017)

    From the numbers, I can safely and comfortably say the MYR in Epf grew faster than the SGD in Cpf in final quantum.

    Of course, simpletons and those “neither-here-nor-there” will moan non-stop about purchasing power of MYR, the increase of living costs, etc. Actually, this should not be the topic that someone should worry about when approaching retirement or at retirement age. If these are the major concerns, then even you live in the richest country in the world or the country with the best social welfare net, you will still moan non-stop because the root of the problem is not the external factors...
    滔滔逝水 , 急急流年 。

  13. #43
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    Two-thirds of members aged 54 have RM50,000 or less in their accounts according to EPF official statement. That amount is likely to be used up within 5 years of retirement provided the cost of living is at RM1 kangkung price. And how many have more than RM500,000 on thier account where many have had withdrawal syndrome for child education, home refinancing and medical bills in thier account 2 before 55? Retirement age for these simple folks .......Now that is a big question ????? .

    N ow Rakyat can hardly afford to eat our own durian. What next ?
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinglicious View Post
    Two-thirds of members aged 54 have RM50,000 or less in their accounts according to EPF official statement. That amount is likely to be used up within 5 years of retirement provided the cost of living is at RM1 kangkung price. And how many have more than RM500,000 on thier account where many have had withdrawal syndrome for child education, home refinancing and medical bills in thier account 2 before 55? Retirement age for these simple folks .......Now that is a big question ????? .

    N ow Rakyat can hardly afford to eat our own durian. What next ?
    Zing, I hope you don't spin the topic to other irrelevant issue...

    My earlier post is to illustrate a point that Epf is actually a good instrument for retirement planning. Even after taking into consideration the depreciation of MYR, one will still get more money than Cpf due to the compounding of higher dividend. For example, RM1000 in Epf 10 years ago will give you more USD now compares to SGD1000 in Cpf 10 years ago.

    The fact that majority of Malaysians (the aged Malaysians especially) are short of savings in Epf is a different topic with different underlying reasons. Disparity of income is everywhere, not just here. In US, the top 1% own more than 40% of the country entire wealth. Over here, it was reported than 0.4% or 29,000 of the 7.2 million Epf members own 52% of all the Epf money.

    They are people who are prudent in $$$, they are people who are not prudent and wasted their money on the wrong things. Some have the opportunities to enhance their wealth, some don't have such opportunities no matter how hard they work. You can start another thread to share your thought of why people don't have money... but please do not blur the focus here.
    滔滔逝水 , 急急流年 。

  15. #45
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    This is a relevant topic on EPF where it should coverage is on both small and big contributors unless the topic is Singapore and Malaysia pyramid investment scheme.

    Most Malaysians are short of savings for retirement if based on EPF where the current salary is concerned and we use the yardstick of mantaining current lifestyle and owning a property for now and possibly worst in the future. Current graduates entry salary is less than RM2500 in civil sector which leaves little room for any savings leftover to maintain a decent lifestyle.

    Yes, just 0.4% or 29,000 of the 7.2 million Epf members own 52% of all the Epf money whereas 96% of rakyat probably have less than 200K to retire.

    Just my thought when you have said simpletons who are neither here and there will moan about rising cost of living and IMHO Malaysians can hardly cope up with retirement with EPF savings. And this is confirmed by MY official figures. Singaporeans can retire more comfortably by buying homes in Malaysia. And that can be the reasons many of them are buying homes from the CPF. Unfortunately for Malaysians to retire either in Thailand or Indonesia is simply impractical.

    I am sorry I am blurred on your thread topic that your EPF is just based on model of investment. Will try to cook stories in different kitchen thread coming soon in USJ.com.my because I am the parts of the majority who are spare parts of the bottom segment with savings of less than Rm500k.
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