View Poll Results: What Is Mandarin?

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  • Written Chinese script in Newspapers/Books

    4 44.44%
  • Spoken language in vernacular schools

    4 44.44%
  • Also known as Pudonghua in China

    6 66.67%
  • Official written language in China/Taiwan

    4 44.44%
  • Official spoken language in China/Taiwan

    5 55.56%
  • Ancient Chinese scholar

    4 44.44%
  • Ancient court official in Chinese royal court

    4 44.44%
  • Oranges/Tangerine

    7 77.78%
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Thread: What is Mandarin?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTCHONG View Post
    Mao is from Shaoshan, Hunan.
    There are many prominent Hakkas, like
    I just don't see the importance or special to one's origin like these individuals. If someone is fated to be someone great or some historical villain...so it be fated to be one at any point of time. Every country will have its share of outstanding people. Doesn't matter black white, blue, purple...isn't it? I'm sure in 1796, France didn't expect a shorty Corsican corporal to be their emperor 8 years later.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTCHONG View Post
    ...

    Taiwan: Lee Teng-hui (ex-President of Taiwan)
    This moron is a shame to Chinese.

    He declared he is a Japanese with a Japanese name, Masao Iwasato (岩里政男).

    For political self-interest, he has no qualm to sell Taiwan to Japan.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Teng-hui

    If there is a person I want to condemn and spit on his face, he is the one..

    大汉奸 !!
    Last edited by Rhiga; 10-09-2013 at 02:41 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bslee View Post
    I just don't see the importance or special to one's origin like these individuals. If someone is fated to be someone great or some historical villain...so it be fated to be one at any point of time. Every country will have its share of outstanding people. Doesn't matter black white, blue, purple...isn't it? I'm sure in 1796, France didn't expect a shorty Corsican corporal to be their emperor 8 years later.
    BS, please don’t get me wrong. I am not here to praise Hakka neither I am Hakka. It is purely to state the origin of these prominent Chinese (except Lee Teng Hui)
    有才而性缓定属大才,有智而气和斯为大智.

  4. #64
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    Not to worry htchong, you're not wrong in your post, just that I fully believe one's origin isn't of any great significance (or praise for that matter), perhaps mere coincidence at whichever time and place and what these individuals may have excelled in their own right and made themselves noteworthy in history.

  5. #65
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    I am Hakka and honestly, I am also not at all proud of them ... triad leaders, gangsters, corrupted, megalomaniac, etc ...
    Everyday is a good day for GOOD FOOD and a GOOD LAUGH

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by currymee View Post
    I am Hakka and honestly, I am also not at all proud of them ... triad leaders, gangsters, corrupted, megalomaniac, etc ...
    Mere coincidence again, every clan, group, type, color, etc, etc, have its share of macam macam types.. The world have been that for as long as its history. Therefore, its unfair to stereotype any kind of group or people to something looked upon as bad.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bslee View Post
    Mere coincidence again, every clan, group, type, color, etc, etc, have its share of macam macam types.. The world have been that for as long as its history. Therefore, its unfair to stereotype any kind of group or people to something looked upon as bad.
    100% correct ...
    Everyday is a good day for GOOD FOOD and a GOOD LAUGH

  8. #68
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    Waaa... since yesterday, this thread just ballooned into 5 pages.

    It started with some problems with "belittling" ... but I seem to read the pulse now that this is no longer an issue.

    Basically, the "problem" with texting on a forum is that we lack visual body language such as in a face-to-face discussion. On that basis, it is very easy for misunderstandings to occur. I shall stick to the middle ground here and will not say if anyone belittled anyone at all. Maybe Dervish is just carrying over sensitivities of past experiences.

    Let me tell you my experience. I have a cousin who studied up to Form5 in Chinese and he never hide his "disgust" at my zero ability to read or write Chinese. Do take note that we both came from an era when English was a ticket to better jobs. My cousin ended up jobless because of his lack of an English education and he became a school bus driver. I seldom meet him but when we do, there are no animosities. Blood is still thicker than water and language is only a trivial episode in our lives when we took different pathways in our choice of schools. I have high regard for his Chinese and I do not give him any chance to regard me negatively because when we meet, we speak our mother tongues ... which is Cantonese.

    And by the way, in my opinion to the poll above, Mandarin is a vocal language because it stands out on how it is spoken. Dervish may not choose to perceive that the written text is the same whether you read it in Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, ad infinitum. Even the Japanese can read Chinese script, yet they read it in Japanese. Nuff said? So my answer would be Pudonghua and official spoken language in China... nothing else.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dervish View Post
    When I was younger, (i.e. pre Astro days) I used to subscribe to Newsweek and National Geographic magazines. The "Letters to the Editor" page was something I never missed because if you're lucky, sometimes you get to read something interesting.

    For example, I read one day long ago, that when the Mongolian Horde swept across Asia Minor and conquered India, *Hulagu Khan was left behind to form the Moghul Empire. The writer submitted a picture of an old coin from the Moghul Empire. Hulagu Khan's face appeared on this coin. In truth, we may never know what truly happened all those years ago. Wasn't History written by the Victors?

    *Hulagu Khan, I think is one of the sons/grandsons of Genghis Khan.

    Anyway, that is not where I'm getting at. From this same source I read one day a long time ago, that during the Tang Dynasty the official lingua franca was Teochew. This came as a huge surprise to me. I had always thought that Mandarin was the official language in China from the beginning of their history. (My folks used to watch old costume drama where Mandarin is spoken so I might have got that idea from there.)

    If the writer is right, how and when did Mandarin first appear? That was the beginning of my interest in Chinese history. That was when I wished I had understood the Mandarin script. There is a world of information out there in cyber space and I did not have the key.

    And that is also why I paid much attention to the Mandarin threads started at this forum and especially the posts written by Rhiga. Unfortunately, the threads never went far enough.

    If you are reading this thread, is there anything you know about the history of Mandarin? How did it started? Where? When? Did it evolve from the Teochew of the Tang Dynasty as some claimed? If there are any Teochew among you, is there any prominent similarities between Teochew and Mandarin? I don't know ... the phonetics perhaps?
    __________
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Nan
    The Min Nan (or "Hokkien") language can trace its roots through the Tang Dynasty. Min Nan (Hokkien) people call themselves "Tang people," (唐人, tn̂g lâng) which is synonymous to "Chinese people". Because of the widespread influence of the Tang culture during the great Tang dynasty, we find today still many Min Nan pronunciations of words shared by the Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese language.
    ____________

    Wonder if it means the lingua franca then was Hokkien, or merely spoken mostly by the communities living near the sea (?)
    .

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HTCHONG View Post
    Wrong!
    Pudong = common or in Chinese is 普通 (not 不懂 or Bu Dong)
    Hua = language or in Chinese is 话

    So, it means common language in China.
    Oh, okay! Thanks. This is why I always insist that Mandarin is difficult to learn, real difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by HTCHONG View Post
    Mao is from Shaoshan, Hunan.
    But what dialect is he?

    There are many prominent Hakkas, like

    1. China: Dr. Sun Yatsen, Soong Ching-ling (second of the Soong sisters, Dr.Sun Yatsen's wife), Deng Xiaoping, Hu Yaobang (former General Secretary of the China Communist Party), Li Peng (fourth Premier of PRC)....

    2. Taiwan: Lee Teng-hui (ex-President of Taiwan), Ma Ying-jeou (current President)....

    3. Singapore: Lee Kuan Yew...

    4. Malaysia: Yap Ah Loy, Yap Kwan Seng...

    5. Thailand: Thaksin Shinawatra...
    Thaksin is a Hakka? Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiga View Post

    大汉奸 !!
    I think I know this word. The first word is "Ta" (Big) so I deduce that the other two must be Pern Tan! Direct Translation = Big Stupid Egg? (I hope I am right this time. )

    This word is used frequently in Shaw Brother Movies which my folks used to see. I never understood the word. Why call people a stupid egg?

    Quote Originally Posted by bslee View Post
    Not to worry htchong, you're not wrong in your post, just that I fully believe one's origin isn't of any great significance (or praise for that matter), perhaps mere coincidence at whichever time and place and what these individuals may have excelled in their own right and made themselves noteworthy in history.
    Debatable. Some people are so proud of Dato Lee Chong Wei being a Malaysian. There is a picture of him plastered on a wall in a bakutteh shop in Klang. (He was eating bakutteh there.) That shop became a tourist attraction. On certain weekends especially long holidays, you see tourist buses stopping there for BKT breakfast and you see them (especially Singaporeans) standing next to this picture to take photographs.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwchang View Post
    Waaa... since yesterday, this thread just ballooned into 5 pages.

    It started with some problems with "belittling" ... but I seem to read the pulse now that this is no longer an issue.

    Basically, the "problem" with texting on a forum is that we lack visual body language such as in a face-to-face discussion. On that basis, it is very easy for misunderstandings to occur. I shall stick to the middle ground here and will not say if anyone belittled anyone at all. Maybe Dervish is just carrying over sensitivities of past experiences.

    Let me tell you my experience. I have a cousin who studied up to Form5 in Chinese and he never hide his "disgust" at my zero ability to read or write Chinese. Do take note that we both came from an era when English was a ticket to better jobs. My cousin ended up jobless because of his lack of an English education and he became a school bus driver. I seldom meet him but when we do, there are no animosities. Blood is still thicker than water and language is only a trivial episode in our lives when we took different pathways in our choice of schools. I have high regard for his Chinese and I do not give him any chance to regard me negatively because when we meet, we speak our mother tongues ... which is Cantonese.

    And by the way, in my opinion to the poll above, Mandarin is a vocal language because it stands out on how it is spoken. Dervish may not choose to perceive that the written text is the same whether you read it in Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, ad infinitum. Even the Japanese can read Chinese script, yet they read it in Japanese. Nuff said? So my answer would be Pudonghua and official spoken language in China... nothing else.
    So sorry to disappoint you, Mr Chang. I can picture you sitting ever ready in front of your PC just dying to issue bananas to anyone who breached your sense of propriety; then hanging them up to dry at the Banana Plantation Gallery. Well, not so fast, Mister! Haven't you noticed latotupai sticking his head in here every so often to help lighten up the mood? IMO you should buy him a good lunch. I've noticed him (on several occasion) sticking his paws into arguments which were threatening to turn ugly.

    Back to the polls. Mandarin is a vocal language? The written text, the one you see on newspapers like Sin Chew Jit Poh, that isn't Mandarin? I am writing in English now. If I write in those Chinese written script, I am not writing in Mandarin?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by usj19 View Post
    __________
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Nan
    The Min Nan (or "Hokkien") language can trace its roots through the Tang Dynasty. Min Nan (Hokkien) people call themselves "Tang people," (唐人, tn̂g lâng) which is synonymous to "Chinese people". Because of the widespread influence of the Tang culture during the great Tang dynasty, we find today still many Min Nan pronunciations of words shared by the Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese language.
    ____________

    Wonder if it means the lingua franca then was Hokkien, or merely spoken mostly by the communities living near the sea (?)
    Min Nan = Hokkien? (It sounds like Ming people to me. )

    I thought Hokkien is Foo Jian Hua in Mandarin. (Pardon the spelling. I don't know hanyupinyin)

    When I was a kid, I always hear people referring to themselves as "Terng Nang" (Hokkien) or "Tong Yan" (Cantonese). I understand the second word. It means "people". Now I was a curious kid so I kept up with the questioning. (Used to annoy my mother silly with the unending questions.)

    Through the years I found two explanation:

    1. The "Terng" in "Terng Nang" means long. The "Terng Nang" originate from "Terng Sua". (i.e. Long Mountain - Perhaps the Great Wall of China?) And "Terng Sua" is China.
    2. The "Terng" means to "have an advantage over". A "Terng Nang" always "take advantage of a situation" and would not lose out to anyone. That's why they are called "Terng Nang".


    In reality I'm still dazed because I am handicapped by my non-Mandarin background.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dervish View Post
    ...The written text, the one you see on newspapers like Sin Chew Jit Poh, that isn't Mandarin? I am writing in English now. If I write in those Chinese written script, I am not writing in Mandarin?
    I do not know the history of Mandarin... but look at HongKong - they too read and write the same text as they do in Beijing/Shanghai/..etc but do you know that the HongKong people speak Cantonese in school? Maybe they no longer use Cantonese in HK schools since they are now under China.

    I don't know if it was a hoax but I read somewhere that China nearly chose Cantonese as their national language but Mandarin won the bid.

  14. #74
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dervish View Post
    Min Nan = Hokkien? (It sounds like Ming people to me. )

    I thought Hokkien is Foo Jian Hua in Mandarin. (Pardon the spelling. I don't know hanyupinyin)

    When I was a kid, I always hear people referring to themselves as "Terng Nang" (Hokkien) or "Tong Yan" (Cantonese). I understand the second word. It means "people". Now I was a curious kid so I kept up with the questioning. (Used to annoy my mother silly with the unending questions.)

    Through the years I found two explanation:

    1. The "Terng" in "Terng Nang" means long. The "Terng Nang" originate from "Terng Sua". (i.e. Long Mountain - Perhaps the Great Wall of China?) And "Terng Sua" is China.
    2. The "Terng" means to "have an advantage over". A "Terng Nang" always "take advantage of a situation" and would not lose out to anyone. That's why they are called "Terng Nang".


    In reality I'm still dazed because I am handicapped by my non-Mandarin background.
    "Min "is a short form of Hokkien and " Nan " mean Southern. Therefore Min Nan mean Southern Part of Hokkien. " teng nang " mean people from Tang Dynasty and " Tong Sua " (Tangshan) is a largely industrial prefecture-level city in northeastern Hebei province. Chinese always call them self as " teng nang " because of Tang Dynastry is the strongest dynastry in China History.

  15. #75
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    I am here in Xian at the tail end of a two week trip. Started from Kaifeng in Hebei, westward to Luoyang and Huashan. In the past two years I have travelled to many parts of China, from small villages to the big cities. My personal observation is that China is not nearly as homogenous in terms of speaking putonghua/mandarin. And there are even places where it disappears completely!
    If you expect the Chinese to speak putonghua/mandarin like TV series or on CCTV you are in for a rude surprise. Most people speak their own dialects or at most accented putonghua/mandarin. No wonder when we speak our Malaysian mandarin they often praise us for our clear pronounciations.
    It's funny in Malaysia where our mother tongue/dialect has been lost to mandarin, whereas in China it remains strong and in use daily.
    Btw, Chairman speaks Hunanese which you can barely understand. And even though the Chinese script may be the same, there are some special made up works in Cantonese to reflect how it sounds when spoken.
    Just my 2cents.

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