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Cool Hand Luke
18-03-2004, 06:01 PM
Let me play the Devil's Advocate here for a moment. Okay. So I vote for the Opposition. Now, please tell me what they can do and are going to do for the benefit of all the residents in USJ and SJ.

:D

topguru
18-03-2004, 06:51 PM
thats acadamic now brother if you haven't noticed - with the blatant 'walkover' at state level we will have to wait another 5 years!

the mp stake - that irrelavent what is this fellow gonna say in parliament about state matters?

.... but for conversation sake at least they may not facilitate the controversial building of serviced apartments that are abandoned, threaten a green lung, nor allow a local council to run roughshod over residents, curtail the ever present and growing corruption that is widely prevalent in all sectors and in local government for starters!

now subang jaya is been run by a few well connected warlords and their machais strategically placed in several 'community based groupings' to give a 'feel good agenda 21 feeling'.

but **** happens .......

Mason
19-03-2004, 10:44 AM
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Well just to see where Malaysia is...READ below

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Cool Hand Luke
19-03-2004, 11:08 AM
Mason - I am an old man with a migrane. What exactly is your point?

:)

pywong
20-03-2004, 03:01 AM
In reply to Cool Hand Luke's question about what Keadilan can do, this is what Keadilan will not do:
1. Be corrupted
2. Put up the Millennium Square
3. Siphon money meant for road resurfacing to other areas
4. Put up elaborate lamp posts at exorbitant cost.

And how to achieve that?

By devolution of power to the local residents through elected local government. Currently, the law does not provide for elected local government because the BN cancelled local government elections in 1976. Many people attribute a lot of our problems with MPSJ is due to lack of accountability.

What else can Keadilan do?

Clean up the drains and upgrade it. Go after the restaurants to make sure that they install grease traps for all their waste water.
Direct the local council to refund all rate payers for the money they have paid to IWK for sewerage charges. This service is the responsibility of the local council. If a law is passed to create a centralised sewerage service body, the charges due to this body should be borne by the local council. And not by the rate payers who are made to pay twice.

Hey, Luke. It is 3:11am now. I can go on and on. But I will stop here.

Cool Hand Luke
20-03-2004, 06:42 AM
Keadilan would not be corrupted? That is a brave or foolish statement. I have yet to believe that. There is corruption from managing a grocery store to the Vatican. Let's get real and live in the real world. I would believe it f you tell me that Keadilan would strive and try its very best to have a clean administration. But as to your proclamation of that Keadilan WILL NOT be corrupted? Sure. And I look like Tom Cruise.

orchipalar
20-03-2004, 09:25 AM
Hi good neighbour:) - Do yourself a favour;) Tom Cruise is not as macho, certainly hasn't got the humours, n isn't even a good lovingman compares to ya old chap:D

Finicking aside - pyWong :) what do you suggest Tuan Syed n fellow keADILans' manifestos would do about bringing changes to the understaffed n mostly corrupted Police Force.:confused:

Last night while driving around the neighbourhood, we're lost, counting the numbers of stolen steel manholes, draincovers, garbage compartment doors, n sooner of later, our neighbours would eventually find even their steel gates to be stolen.:mad:

What do you propose about bringing positive changes to overloaded overdozed addicts problems, incest, n other so-sial problems? Last but not least what would you have done for raped or sexually abused victims.:rolleyes:

N relevant to this topic, what would they go about solving the problems faced by abandoned house/propertiy buyers?:o

Like we mentioned in a related topic, we understand everyone who're rebelling for a good cause.:)

NonUSJ
20-03-2004, 10:35 AM
Why don't all USJ folks held a referendum & cede USJ to Singapore?? I can bet all my MONEY that USJ will nolonger have traffic congestion, Transport system will be no 1 the the world, crime rate was low & everything was superb...except Kiasu & job stress.

orchipalar
20-03-2004, 12:24 PM
Hi NonUSJ:) - Let me thank you for your kindhearted gestures n intentions. Since I am out of touch with Singaporeans, the following piece could be outdated:-

http://sg.rd.yahoo.com/search/web/s/x/2/corruptions+in+Singapore/*http://www.sfdonline.org/sfd/Link%20Pages/Link%20Folders/Human%20Rights/appealforjustice.html

Just a suggestion from me privately, you could consider to invest your money wisely.:)

kwchang
20-03-2004, 02:31 PM
That's what most things really are.

I am sure there are some very dedicated people in the coming elections. There will be people who sincerely believe in what they do and have no corrupted intentions whatsoever. I wish that they may lead us to an even better future for our children.

Will we eradicate wrongdoings (note - "wrong" in our eyes) if we voted for a specific politician? Look at the whole picture - although a party may hold the mandate to make political decisions, they operate with the existing people that make up their operational team and multiple layers of services all the way down to the brick-layer and the guy who spreads tar on the asphalt highways. Are we going to scrub out the rust and oil the gears by selecting this Mr/Ms Clean ? Mind you, this has happened before. I remember some very "dedicated" politicians holding fort but the situation remained.

Cleanliness and honesty must come through within the fabric of society. Let us not put the onus on the leader alone. Ask ourselves, have we tried to maintain the clean society that we so demand? This is like some people blaming the school for the poor performance of their children. Have they tried to bring up their children properly with the right virtues themselves?

Let us vote. But remember to tell ourselves that we are the ones that make the change. Perhaps we start by not paying that RM30 bribe to the cops when we commit a traffic offence. That will be a small step but if everyone did it, we will eradicate one source of corruption.

pywong
20-03-2004, 03:08 PM
Luke, I don't blame you for being cynical. After 47 years of abuse (or heaven on earth, depending on how you look at it), one does become hardened. But in life, we should always be open to our fellow men and receptive to sincere ideas. Check out the ideas. If it does not make sense to you, then drop it. Don't cut it off out of cynicism alone.

Orchipalar: In reply to your points.
Police force: Raymond Tan has done a great analysis on the police staffing. He showed that we have a police to population ratio of 1:250, meaning to say that in Subang Jaya we should be having nearly 2000 policeman. Drop by at the police station in SS17 and the pondok at USJ and tell me whether you find anything remotely near 2000 people. Feel free to include the spouses and children of the police, and even those in the lockup, as well.

We have 85,000 policemen. That is a first world standard. I mean by numbers, not quality. You may recollect that last year, Badawi was going on for weeks on end that we were short of policemen and that we need to increase the police force. Until someone pointed out to him (and reported in newspapers as well) that he has got the numbers wrong. Next he came out with this wonderful idea of a Royal Commission. We don't need a Commission. We need the police to be focused and do the job that they are employed to do, and not to be used agents to carry out the BN agenda against their opponents.

The real issue is of deployment. Where are these people? Are they in the Special Branch. Are they in the FRU? Are they used to chase after the BN opponents when they conduct ceramahs instead of preventing or solving crime? Or are they phantoms?

Corruption of the police force: Before we can tackle this issue, we have to solve the corruption at the cabinet level first. To see whether we can expect anything from Badawi, I suggest we look back 22 years to the time of Tun Hussein Onn. To my mind, he was one of the most honest Prime Ministers in our country and a person I had the greatest admiration for. He was the only one who jailed a corrupt mentri besar. He was so efficient in his work, that the UMNO warlords got nervous and it was believed that they colloborated with his deputy to force him out. I remember how he announced his resignation, ostensibly for health reasons, with tears in his eyes.

I am sure Badawi has learned the lessons of history well and he will not be too enthusiastic about cleaning up corruption in UMNO. His position in UMNO is not secure in the first place. We can expect a few ikan bilis here and there to be thrown to the wolves to keep the masses happy. Then it will be back to the good old days. Again, I apologize for sounding cynical. I look at events in blocks of 10 years and the picture that comes out is crystal clear.

Coming back to the Police force, we need something like the Hong Kong CIAC or maybe we can eat humble pie and ask for help from Singapore. They have proven success in this area. While we are about it, we could drop that S-bridge over the Johor causeway. It really irks me to listen to some of the dumb reasons that the previous PM trotted out to justify it. He must really think we are idiots. For that matter, he treats us as idiots anyway. So I shouldn't complain.

Stolen manhole covers: People steal only if there is a market for it. We need to identify who are the buyers of the stolen goods. Make it an offense to own such items unless they are able to prove that it was bought from a legitimate source, such as manufacturers or hardware suppliers. And then enforce the ruling. It is pointless having all those beautiful laws if they are not enforced. The other solution is to use material that cannot be recycled.

Social problems: Sorry. Not my area of expertise. Will need to refer to the experts.

Abandoned property: I was burnt badly myself on this. A piece of land I bought at Emville was put up by the developer to the bank as collateral. I paid up fully and ended up with nothing. From what I can see, there are enough laws to protect the house buyers but they is not enough political will to enforce it. I don't want to speculate on the reasons behind this, as I will end up sounding cynical again.

Rebel: I don't see myself as a rebel. I see myself as a stake-holder in this country. I see the BN as the board of directors given a 5-year contract to run the country. I don't take kindly to the board of directors using all sorts of intimidating tactics to get me to renew their contract. I merely wish to exercise my right as a shareholder to vote for a new management of my choice, without coercion from any party. So the question of rebelling does not arise.:D

orchipalar
20-03-2004, 05:23 PM
Hi pyWong:) - Seeing that you have started on the right foot here about several related issues, n have taken the trouble to highlight some of your plights, what about the higher up people/politicians that you're going to stake your support to?:)

Having said that allow me to thank you before I forget to do so about you taking the trouble :) As newbies ourselves, we're feeling welcome already. Not sure about Mr. C H Luke though, thinking he is coming down with a bigger headache:D

KWChang - we see n appreciate your points...but if we hadn't bride the policemen so very often...to compensate their big spender wallet...they might have to resort to other means of getting the extra bucks, sorry we use this excuse for our own stupidity, but quite often we find instead the policemen being the masterminds of serious crimes in our country:D

Now back to pyWong, kindly enlighten me n me wife this, when perhaps we didn't explain our earlier question enough in the other related topic, who are you fighting for?:) Are you saying that by casting our votes to ke ADIL an running candidates, we're giving offering the chance to fight their own causes or the peoples' causes:confused:

How did this parti ke ADIL an derived from? What was the real intentions? Where're they before? What causes were they fighting for back then?

NO. This is not about racial issues that we are trying to raise or touch. Rather we're are trying to be certain of their credentials n credibility, n them championing for what causes.

Before we get more confused, is ke ADIL an as transparent as what you have hope for? Behind closed doors, just what are they planning to achieve? Are you personally aware of their real intentions?:)

Cool Hand Luke
20-03-2004, 05:41 PM
Pywong - You have missed the plot. I am not being cynical. I am being realistic. I gave up believing in the tooth fairy and unicorn when I was seven. BN may not have done a job to everybody's satisfaction but BA is a million light years away when it cannot even get its act together between the so-called partners where the marriage is one of temporary convenience. It is always easy to talk about solving problems ACADEMICALLY but try doing that in real life. I watched Philip Dick's 'Miniority Report' and 'PayCheck' and the happenings there are more real than BA's simplistic and naive proposals at solving problems. You are the one who is getting cynical by shooting from the hips at our PM and just about everything else BN has done. Fair enough, BN may not have done a fantastic job but it sure doesn't mean that everything they have done are crap. A bit of extremism is creeping up. I remember that yesterday we were all condemning one particular individual for posting 'violent' languages against BN and you yourself have told him off. Now, personally, I do not see any difference between his comments and yours. His comments are rude and to the point, yours are concealed under a veneer of polished good English. Now... what is the difference? When a bullet hits you, it hits you, it doesn't matter whether the bullet is coated with dung or coated with honey. You still die from the bullet.

Orchipalar - I do believe you have point about the transparency via your quote: "Behind closed doors, just what are they planning to achieve? Are you personally aware of their real intentions?"

:)

orchipalar
20-03-2004, 07:05 PM
Hi good neighbours:) - Allow us to highlight our ignorance n foolishness. Years gone by, we saw the nation's gross national per capita income(GNP?) from being mere over 1000+ ringgit to 15000 +- ringgit. Economics was one of me F subjects, so not sure how that means now?

If all polulations including babies are accounted for, we should be getting subsidies for cheaper hospitalization, basic utilities, housing, road taxes, n more benefits from EPF, n Income tax, n a share of the nations' wealth.:confused:

But ever since we got kicked out of our parents' home or schools, we sweat blood n shiit bricks, to get where we're today, earning from our own hardship to get what from our nations weath?

Today, we're made to pay for roadtax to operate our cars then pay tolls everywhere we go in our own hard paid cars, we have no good public transport, we consume sewer water, we get blackouts at night for prompt payments, we get to keep our garbage for at least 4 days in a week, got summoned for chopping down a tree that posed a hazard to our house, got thieves snatching our women's handbags, got damaged n clogged drains, got robbed in broad daylight, our women raped n murdered, our sons n daughters sodomized by own daddies, got our woman wacked by their husbands, got smacked by oppositions fanatics, got our kids overloaded with drugs n alcohols, got law n enforcement officers robbing, got bills piling up from government agencies, got income tax order claiming short paid taxes, got to pay even after being cheated by property developers, got scrud n fired for claiming we are the actual masters over our boss n ruler.:D

Last but not least we got the politicians? When're we going to see peace n harmony? Do we have to go hell or heaven for that?
:confused: OR,

We may be nuts thinking this, if no one votes tomorrow, we imagine the general populations don't turn up to cast our votes :) What happens? So, you have x numbers of members from A party only, n you have another x numbers of members from B party only, n you have another x numbers of members from C party only, then you have x numbers of members from D party or E party, let the politicians vote against themselves.:D

What is going to happen? Sorry just one of me crazy imaginations.:o

pywong
20-03-2004, 09:46 PM
Ochipalar, in reply to your questions:

1. Who am I fighting for?
Not interested in fighting. Trying to engage an alternative group to the BN, to help them develop policies that is fair for all Malaysians. For my children, so that they can have an equal place in the Malaysian sun.

2. Keadilan's intentions:
Your guess is as good as mine. All we can do is watch them carefully and if they don't perform, vote them out in the next elections. I believe what is important is to determine what is UMNO/BN's intentions. That is clear for all to see. If you are happy about what they have done and intend to do, continue voting for them. If, as suggested in your last posting, you are unhappy, why don't you give Keadilan a shot. What is the worst thing that can happen? Maybe denying BN a 2/3 majority. Which if I may add, would prevent the BN from amending the Constitution to confirm Mahathir's Islamic State Declaration.

Luke,

Shooting from the hips: Please look at the points raised by me. If they have validity, accept them. If not, reject them.

Cynicism, realism, whatever. I don't wish to get drawn into a debate on that. Let's agree to disagree and leave at that.
:)

Cool Hand Luke
20-03-2004, 10:38 PM
Pywong - You have failed to convince me that voting for Keadilan is the way forward for my country and my children. Thank you but no thank you. Three blind mice...... anybody remember the lyrics of this song?

:D

cre8tif
20-03-2004, 11:24 PM
:cool: hi ch luke

u got a point there, but how sure are you that if the current status quo being left unchecked will bring a BETTER future for the country and its people ?

In spite of the hefty RM20,000 deposit payable by a candidate to the commission to secure a chance to contest for the respective seats, which political movement will have such vast amount readily available for its candidate's disposal for the upcoming election ?

I'm sure the answer is oblivious - with the limited resources possessed bt the non-BN parties, it cannot afford to put forward one candidate in every contestable area and thus the obvious answer is that the tip of the scale lies in favour of the sure-winner ...

Some seats has already being won uncontested which will bode well for the land-slide victory for BN ...

So in any case voting for the non-BN parties will not result in the overtaking of the goverment by the Opposition since they have no such man-power / scale to challenge the status quo against them ...

Look at Terrenganu and compare to USJ / PJ for instance, since the last general election wherein the state has fallen to PAS, the ruling government has been trying hard to win back every votes it has lost to PAS ... It is in this course that they have to fulfill their pledge and keep their promises made in the manifesto ...

Without any pressure for change, to what extent has the MPSJ local authority done for its constituents ?

This is the general problem of the local authorities in Malaysia - the tidak-apa attitude ... given the complacent attitude that the there is no pressure put upon them, they will not buck-up to do a better job for its rate-payers ...

Further, if you look at the effort of the Yang Berharap from the non-BN side, changes although might not take place overnight but this will serve as a strong reminder for the authorities to buck up or otherwise to continually lose support from its constituents ...

i would want the country to prosper under the but without major detour from the mandate/will of the electorates ...

orchipalar
21-03-2004, 01:58 AM
Hi pyWong:) - Thanks again for responding to us ignorant couple, we're sure no one is out to try change or influence anybody's mind about how they would see things.:)

In one of your suggestions though is trying to ask us to observe n watch or check BN's politics, sorry, we feel we have other more important agendas in our lives, that being trying to survive against all odds under the circumstances that we're faced with.:(

YES if we feel we can make a difference, then we join politics, but that is a different game everybody knows so well, so politic is not our cup of milk for us to be able to feed our kids with.:)

What we imagine is not far out, let the politicians beat up each other ala Taiwan's politicians, thus no need to get the people's mandate to run the country as the backbone of excuses, save the tax n rate payer people the time n billions of money spent on elections campaigns, instead of to build more better n cheaper medical facilities, cheaper n better local educations, so we don't have to waste our parents' monies, to get unnecessary alphabets behind our names overseas, n get everything the people wishes for done.

In the end we don't give a hoot, if the ruling politicians makes some for themselves, since they got almost everything going well, why we bother to complaint.:)

So, if you want A party to win n rule, you have it in you, join A party, be a politician, n do your bit for the people. But, if A party didn't do so well, you can join B party to make up more majority to win, you are still the politician, then what is wrong with that?

Of course, other politicians could form C party or D party, no problem, with thier own money too, treat it as an initial investment, you win you get the returns, we don't mind at all.

So, the winning party decides, who they want to elect as PM, DPM, n who they want to elect to lead each n every states in the country, n who they want to manage all the various ministries/departments/divisions/municiples/communities/kampongs/etc. They get to elect or change for their own judiciary systems, judges, laws n policies. Sigh..they have been doing the same things, so what is the difference? At whose expense for the last 10 GE.

We did observed in the past 7 or 8 elections, what is the statistics of voters turning up to vote? 60% to 70% roughly so, that being millions didn't turnup n were not voting to give any mandate or excuse for the past politicians ruling or otherwize to fark up or bring about much difference for any good anyway.

Just wonder what would have happened, if only 50% or less turned up to vote, what then, the same isn't it, n who benefits from the inevitable majority poll? Who got suckered? The total polulation instead.:D

NO. This is not communism. You still have rights to choose, but no need for the people to elect the politicians, let the politicians elect or fight among themselves to win, n you are free to join or not to join politics.

BUT, sorry, then the elections take place once every 2 years, instead of 5, so the ruling political party would have to do good with their management of the country within a shorter period of time, thus no time to mess up, or they would be kicked out by another challenging party in the next mandatory election in the renewed constitution. How is that for politics?

YES, we sound silly, not only that we are stupid, last time we tried to understand politics, people told us, in plenty other developed countries, the rich become politicians, to bring about changes, or to make more money, or to get an impeachment for a President to leave the oval office.

In our case n many other developing countries, you know darn well what has been happening. Sure we now got businessmen as running candidates, but these being failed or bogus businessmen, for all we know?

Therefore, just what are the real causes of our politicians today? We don't have natural enemies like Sad Dam Hussein on the other sides of the borders? We don't have earthquakes n devastating hurricanes? No tidal waves either? We have been building not rebuilding? We have even climbed Mount Everest?

So, where has all our nation's wealth gone TO? To the peoples of this nation, surely NOT. Who then has got them n who has done it. The Politicians or course.:D Not all, but plenty.

Cool Hand Luke
21-03-2004, 08:50 AM
Cre8tif - To your question: "How sure are you that if the current status quo being left unchecked will bring a BETTER future for the country and its people?" No. I cannot be absolutely sure and nobody can be absolutely sure. There are no guarantees in life. But what I do know is that I do not think BA can do better. If I have the choice - and indeed I have, by voting - to choose between an enemy that I know and a possible friend that I do not know, I choose the enemy.

cre8tif
21-03-2004, 12:02 PM
:D I think bob k has a very good submission in another thread as follows :


Originally posted by Bob K
I do not disagree with the fact that certain strategies ...
(snipped)
...
this is the same principle which is being applied; albeit more subtly; in Malaysia by the BN coalition.

There will come a time when my vote will go to its opponent to give them a reminder that government is for the people and BY the people ... buck-up or i'll vote for a *barking* squad to give them good grilling in the Parliament / State Senate ... The time is now ...

Admin note -
A complete quote is unnecessary, the hyperlink is
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?postid=25837#post25837

cre8tif
21-03-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Cool Hand Luke
Cre8tif - To your question: "How sure are you that if the current status quo being left unchecked will bring a BETTER future for the country and its people?" No. I cannot be absolutely sure and nobody can be absolutely sure. There are no guarantees in life. But what I do know is that I do not think BA can do better. If I have the choice - and indeed I have, by voting - to choose between an enemy that I know and a possible friend that I do not know, I choose the enemy.

I think the *dillution* of the whole electoral process spells for trouble to our near future ...

My agony comes every GE is that since the electoral process has been so tainted, I dunno whether I'm doing the country a dis-service if I participated in voting for someone that I wouldn't want to represent my right / interest ...

What if my right / interest does not coincide with the majority's preference / status quo ? whom do I ran to ? It seems the light at the end of the tunnel is rather vague in the distant future ...

Without any dissenting voice in Parliament / State whom do we complain to for the misfortunes / plight / whatsoever ?

orchipalar
21-03-2004, 07:28 PM
Hi cre8tif:) - Welcome. Sorry if we sound silly n naive in politics n reality. Seriously we're confused, while we be stupid hooting our crazy ideas to this virtual space, with probably only a handful of fellow space travellers turning on their antennas listening to our rantings about stolen manhole covers, n lost of our egos after having been smacked by an overloaded dejected BA phantom supporters, likewise who're probably be thinking that we're wasting everybody's time n memory bits in their computers.:o Remarkably, at the same time we got expert political analysts probably with strings of alphabets attached to their credentials, doing the same things as we're doing, wasting ours n everybody's time, reminding ourselves of fantasies, stale news, in difficult to understand n out of this universe kind of speeches.:confused:

Wakeup:rolleyes: Now that the erection is over, n after all the hoo haas n hootings are finished, we got tonnes of toxic n bio undegradable garbage posters, fliers, poles, wrappers, bags, inks n strings, rushing down to the sewer mixed up with our drinking waters.:(

In our case, immediately after we wake up from our dreams or nightmares, we also know what we gonna get, or what we have to be faced with n do.:), subject to the same conditions.

As for the good neighbours:) n politicians with your ideology n dreams on the other side of the realistic world, may we suggest that you should be contemplating on to refresh n reinitiate your new campaignings efforts to champion for the right causes for the next GE2009 or sooner.

That being your permanent job for 24/365.2654+- of days x A nos. of years x B nos. of GEs x C nos. of parties in betweens.:)

Notwithstanding any divine intervention, we may get to stick on a bit longer, just to see if there would be any better changes materializing. :D

Cool Hand Luke
21-03-2004, 07:40 PM
Cre8tif - Somebody posted a joke about paradise etc in one of the recent political threads. Need I say more that it reminds me of quite a number of people and a political party or two. Now that the election is over, real work has begun. Now walk the talk and only real men and women would do that. No more rhetorics and beating of chests to swear about abolition of corruption, getting rid of traffic congestion and erecting dull lamp posts.

:)

cskok8
21-03-2004, 08:59 PM
I do not know whether a BA govt will be corrupt or not (if voted in). But I am sure that the present BN one is corrupt to the core.

cre8tif
21-03-2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by cskok8
I do not know whether a BA govt will be corrupt or not (if voted in). But I am sure that the present BN one is corrupt to the core.

hi kok:D

let's talk about corruption at the police force level lar ...

the simple solution ? tambah gaji - their renumeration is so pathetic at times i wonder why a developed nation like us which can afford to have a Twin Tower / Sepang F1 circuit / Commonwealth sport stadium cannot afford to pay these law-enforcers good money ?

Even working as a teacher / other civil service also better so how to heed the call of our dear PM to work for the police force / etc ?

I also pity one of my fren's father - let's call him uncle ...

uncle has served during the 60-80s as a young lad in the army - opted out for early retirement and what had happened to my dar uncle here ?

sigh - these are good men - they have literally sacrifice their youth/future in defending the country against the external threats / communism [over liao since 1990s with Chin Peng surrendering] ... most of these good men can probably work as security guards or jaga as we know them ...

what happen exactly in the real world ? with all the commercial competition by security companies to give the best rates to their corporate customers for security ... my dear uncle jaga probably gets paid RM300 flat per month ...

it is not surprising as to why there are so doubts in the national servicemen faith in their future - true enough that the government is kind enough to give these good men defending our country a longer loan servicing period to finance a perodua / proton but still where to find the money to service all these things ? not that it is being given free ...

so in a nutshell = to solve corruption in the public / national service - we need to look seriously in the way they are being treated pre and post retirement from the force ...

cre8tif
21-03-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by orchipalar
Hi cre8tif:) - Welcome. Sorry if we sound silly n naive in politics n reality. Seriously we're confused, while we be stupid hooting our crazy ideas to this virtual space, with probably only a handful of fellow space travellers turning on their antennas listening to our rantings about stolen manhole covers, n lost of our egos after having been smacked by an overloaded dejected BA phantom supporters, likewise who're probably be thinking that we're wasting everybody's time n memory bits in their computers.:o Remarkably, at the same time we got expert political analysts probably with strings of alphabets attached to their credentials, doing the same things as we're doing, wasting ours n everybody's time, reminding ourselves of fantasies, stale news, in difficult to understand n out of this universe kind of speeches.:confused:

hi orchipalar - no lar u guys's ada u punya doubts / beliefs / scepticism ...

i began to think that with so much restriction with freedom to speak our ideals / wants / criticisms / etc in the *free press* where else can we turn to voice our clammer for action / inaction ?

*poof* the http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload (forum)

but if u reflect carefully, without even bother to say/write anything ... how to get things done ?

orchipalar
22-03-2004, 08:36 AM
Hi cre8tif:) - Thanks for listening, now that we understand each other in pasar malam languages:) , we could start to work together to help out in any needy community neighbourhood problems n suggestions, rather than talking politics only.

Some people may not like it, but what happens in Paliamentary levels happens, some policies could be bitter pills to swallow for people like us - a couple of old fools but life goes on :)

Some people may not like it also, now that we still got YB Lee Wah Beng on our local front still would be beating the drums for people in this neighbourhood.

Certain things we're not so sure, but he was instrumental in putting up a chinese school - Chee Wen - for our 2 young rascals, hoping this school would teach our kids good values about growing ups n getting them to pass the lowest levels of academic examinations in the process.:)

Then hopefully, by the time they're about to head to a secondary school, our YB would have got one secondary SM(J)K cina, to welcome our kids.:cool:

Meantime, we still get peanut butter, jelly beans, n jams for breakfasts in the morning, 'chap fun' for lunches, n instant noodles for dinners.:D

Hopefully, that be enough also to keep us surviving on, until one of us say 'Adios Kimosabe' to our other half.:D

Timo
22-03-2004, 01:31 PM
This reply encompasses two discussions, this one and the one in the thread titled "On preserving a secular opposition".

I have a few points to make.

I feel it is important (if not imperative) to always have a strong opposition party. I am pro competition, and I believe competition brings out the best in everyone and in that sense, the opposition is required to keep the ruling party in check. To gain (some) power, opposition parties need seats, which we provide them via voting. So, to keep the ruling party from total domination, it is always a good idea to vote some of the opposition in.

Having said that, the idea of voting for the opposition only works if the opposition is worth voting for - it is clear that malaysia does not have a real opposition. DAP and Keadilan are praying on 'pity' votes, and PAS is playing the race (religion rather) card. So, instead of saying, "please don't vote for BN", why doesn't the opposition go out and give us a reason to vote for THEM. They haven't provided us a good reason for voting for them. They have not even got it together party wise - come on opposition, at least get your internal matters all sorted out. So, for the opposition, instead of feeling sorry for yourselves, go out and do something about it!

On another note, being realistic, I believe the opposition is handicapped. BN definitely has more resources than the opposition, and in a country like MAlaysia, so media oriented, you would kid yourself if you said that the fact BN controlled the media doesn't matter. However, is this a good reason to vote BA?

The elections are over so there is no point trying to convince who to vote for whom (who?), however, if I was given the choice between a young inexperience party with great potential vs a experienced party which has been consistent, I would choose the former. The problem is we don't have one (potential opposition) yet, and as its turning out, I don't think there will ever be one.

cre8tif
22-03-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Timo
...snipped by administrator...
[/B]

Admin note -
You have this incredible urge to quote EVERYTHING that was written. For goodness sakes, the post that you quoted is just the one above. No need to make any quotes man!

hi timo

nicely written tapi ada satu *titik* which is puzzling ...

political parties unite under different ideology ...

the DAP left the Barisan Alternatif front for one reason ... the bigger *brother* ideology on the Islamic fundamentalism is very much different on DAP's ideology on freedom of religion / justice / noble values ...

I sincerely hope that although Wan Azizah might have retained her seat with a minute majority to take seriously the *kerajaan reformasi* slogan ... not for his husband but for its fan-base / grass-roots ...

I do concur with dear neighbours' view such as CH Luke on one very simple point only :D [without prejudice to difference of mine and uncle's understanding of the democratic jurisprudence] ...

free anwar ? i think the answer is quite obvious -

to be truly *reformasi* fundamental - some part of the manifesto must be forgone ...

orchipalar
22-03-2004, 11:07 PM
Hi good neighbours:) - TheStarOnline posted Datin Seri Dr. WanAzizah is declared as the winner by 590 votes in Permatang Pauh. Oh my, she n her family have been through unimaginable pains in their crusades, yet wins this battle with considerably small margin of majority. Personally though she deserves every bit of respects from the both of us.:)

On the other hand we see Kelantan having parliamentary majority seats won by BN, but people of the state have voted for a majority of state assembly men from PAS.:confused: So how now?

joker2107
23-03-2004, 11:20 AM
pywong (aka A Nation Without Any Ringgit???):D
i don't see where chl associated the opposition with keadilan. and the results also show that THE opposition is NOT keadilan. dap has resumed that role.

my guess is that chl was soliciting opinions on what happens if bn loses, not to any particular opposition party, but simply that bn obtains less than 1/3 of the p seats or a minority in the dun.

wishful thinking that, but not an impossibility. but the 1st step will be 4 u n i n everybody else, dun/mp aspirants included, to review the following:

we hv 3 levels of govt - federal, state and local. federal and state govt are elected during the ge. local govt are appointed. what r the duties of the respective govt? does the local govt hv a responsibility. is the local govt subservient to duns and mps? what do election candidates campaign 4?

we r now just over a dozen yrs from the 2020 that the nation is trumpeting about. what r we going to showcase then? more klccs and klia? the biggest port in the world? the largest roti channai in the world? the filthiest rubbish dump in the world?

a couple of days b4 polling day, on my way to dinner, a convoy of flag bearing motorcyclists cut across my path as they beat the red light. once in a green moon eupherism, i assumed. as i downed my mee goreng, another bigger convoy roared by. the scales were definitely not balanced with riders ranging in age from 30+ to obviously minor (who r not qualified to ride a motor bike). this group did not use crash helmets.

this scenario prompted me to put my tots into public domain.

what is development and what is govt is we do not hv rule of law? a mockery of our rukun negara. do we hear politicians pledging improvement in the delivery of law enforcement? do we review and propose resolutions to issues like lepaking, run-away foreign workers, illegal immigrants, child labour, child and getriatic care, agenda 21, blah blah blah? heck, duns don't even bother about parking of stalls and tables/chairs on public roads even as the cops issue summons to motorists double parking out being frustrated by ill used parking lots.

it so easy to pluck a figure from thin air and proclaim that we will hv 30b in foreign investments if bn retains power. the latter is a foregone conclusion, the 30b an illusion. instead of running down the opposition and attacking opponents, do we see positive mentality and approaches such as proposals as to how the elected will generate jobs for our unskilled locals, how they will retain our global competitiveness even if the rm is traded at usd2.80, how ydps will shiver and piss in their pants each time an elected rep calls on them, how temples churches shrines and mosques can be built without political inteference, how ahloongs and their misdemeanours will be eliminated, how road reserves will remain road reserves and not have some edifice erected thereon, how govt authorities will be responsible for all property under their care and control esp the abandoned ones bought by danaharta ..... and an endless list of macro concerns.

who do i want in an elected federal and state govt? who do u want? its hard 4 me to continue here - not when i'm suffering from an attack of once in 5-years depression. not bcos my choice lost. not bcos bn won. not bcos of the margin of victory. simply bcos i do not hv a choice. simply bcos we r so near 2020 but we r still so far from maturity. simply bcos after 10 ge we are still electing a govt to be our slave to haggle with mpsj.... sigh. i need my paracetomol now.

jericho
23-03-2004, 02:10 PM
Basically I will vote for the opposition since I believe there should always be a balance and check in the Dewan Rakyat. But I dread to vote for BA because I'm sceptical on their causes.

To those BA supporters, here is a letter I found back in 1998 published in South China Morning Post which I still keep until today. The writer might sounded racist but basically he is telling the true scenario and of course the true Anwar.



Saturday October 3 1998

Sceptical


What reforms is Anwar Ibrahim shouting about?

Is he calling for everything to be on the basis of meritocracy in Malaysia? That all Malaysians, regardless of race or religion, will be treated equally?

Does his vision of reform mean that Malays will not be accorded an unfair advantage over Malaysians of other races in education, employment, banking and other forms of business?

Does it mean that Chinese, Indians, Dusuns, Kadazans and people of other races in Malaysia will be allowed to build their own universities and that admission will be based on merit and not on race with no 50 per cent quota for Malays? I am a Malaysian-Chinese and I am afraid of Anwar, whom I see as being too pro-Islamic. He is not championing genuine reforms, but is only trying to save himself.

He says that everything is wrong with the present government and yet it was not so long ago that he was a part of that same administration.

FREDERICK HUANG
Nottingham, UK

Cool Hand Luke
23-03-2004, 03:27 PM
Jericho - You are absolutely right. I have always been a rebel with a cause (or without cause). I was very active in student union activities when I was in the UK. I did not vote for BA not because I love BN but because BA has not provided a viable alternative. As I said before, personally speaking, if I were to choose between an enemy that I think I know and a possible friend whom I do not know at all, I would choose the enemy.

lord
25-03-2004, 09:45 AM
Guys, just to sidetrack a little.

I was with a buddy of mine last nite, gulping chill beer at a sidewalk cafe. For an Indian, this guy is an ardent supporter of PAS, GOD knows why!! During the last election, he even had a PAS flag flying from his balcony in Bangsar. After a few days, PAS supporters were outside his house and had a wild shock when an Indian joe was walking out smilling and inviting them in for tea!! When they left, they gave him the latest copy of Harakah and some bumper stickers and all. They would have given him an honorary membership if it was not for the reason that this guy is a Catholic!!:) I thought that was cool, man.

Ok, this time, he had the flag and all but the BA candidate against Shahrizat was a Keadilan guy. So, what this guy did was, on polling day, he went to the polling ctr at Bukit Bandaraya, Bangsar and like the rest casted his votes. But since the ballot paper only had BN and Keadilan, he wrote the word PAS at the bottom, drew the PAS logo at the side and put a cross next to it:) :) !!! I laughed till my stomach was paining and almost dropped off my chair.

I thought I was bad until I heard this wild story!!!

pywong
25-03-2004, 11:23 AM
Jericho,
A swallow does not a summer make. That means we don't judge on the basis of one article or incident. We should treat this as a chess game. Look at all the moves, the positions of the pieces on the board. Gather all information and then make your judgement. In your office, would you make a decision on the basis of one piece of information and would you get as much info as possible before deciding? Even then, you have to take a deep breath and trust in your instincts. Same thing in life.

joker2107,
First things first.
1. We secure our flanks. Make sure that financially the family is well provided for. That is our basic responsibility.
2. Then we can look beyond that into the larger needs of society. In other words "Charity starts at home!"

Most people are stuck in the rat race trying to take care of step 1. That is the reality of life and sadly, most people have come to accept that is the only reality for them. The sadder thing is that most of the people caught in the trap are highly intelligent and capable people.

But if we are prepared to lift the veil that is covering our eyes, we will be able to see that there is a brave new world out there for us to conquer. But the 1st step starts with us.

Sorry, joker. Moaning about it won't help. Taking too much paracetemol is not good for your kidneys. Try meditation.:) It is a wonderful form of mental training.

You have 3 options:
1. Accept the status quo. Reconcile yourself that everything is honky dory. Maybe even try to get a few crumbs for yourself.
2. Give up and shut up! I don't mean this in an offensive manner. Many of my friends have adopted this option. Meanwhile they try their best to make as much money as they can and stick to their principles of honesty and integrity. Although, I may not agree fully with this approach, I still respect them for what they are trying to do for their families.
3. Do something about it.

So! Which do you choose?
:D

joker2107
25-03-2004, 12:53 PM
the swallow has lost its flock, i.e jericho stated very clearly at the beginning - just to sidetrack a little. nice piece of gossip (real s it may b) 2 ease the bitter tastes of reality.

pywong
securing our flanks is s u said very rightly our own responsibility. how does one's choice of dun or mp picture in "Make sure that financially the family is well provided for". unless of course i'm printing their election paraphenalia.:)

u may be still groping wihtin the confines of your "charity begins at home". but for one to stand for election, it is a public declaration and an implied oath that the candidate's charity is for the people. who u vot e4 has nothing to do with where u put yr good heart. in the votin gprocess, we r scruntinising where the candidates are putting their good hearts (and brains, if any).:cool:

the paracetomol stuff, ugh... surely u couldn't hv really believed that i was on a pill popping spree?

re yr options :
1 - status quo - i might as well stay in bed instead of sweating it out at the polling stations. i'm really really very very very short of sleep.
2. no offence 2 me. but give up and shut up, hey man, i ain't no coward like a dog with its tail between its hind legs yelping in fright and scampering like satan was after it. having been around for almost half a century and being involved in so many things in so many places (such s this forum) , i swear 2 u that that's life and its fun no matter how horrible the backdrop may be. call it no pain no gain if u want. wahtever, its definitely one huge leap away from making a statistical history of oneself. sorry, yr option 2 is just s gd as 1 - snuggle yrself under yr comfy blanket.
3, what am i in this forum 4? why did i travel 50 km in sweltering heat for? u said it damn right here.

let me share a poem of henry wadsworth longfellow here. its titled "a psalm of life".

tell me not in mournful numbers
life is but an empty dream
for the soul is dead that slumbers
and things are not what they seem

life is real life is earnest
and the grave is not its goal
dust thou art to dust returnest
was not spoken of the soul

not enjoyment and not sorrow
is our destined end or way
but to act that each tomorrow
finds us farther than today

art is long and time is fleeting
and our hears though stout and brave
still like muffled drums are beating
funerl marches to the grave

in the world's broad field of battle
in the bivouac of life
be not like dumb driven cattle
be a hero in the strife

trust no future however pleasant
let the dead past bury its dead
act, act in the living present
heart within and god overhead

lives of great men all remind us
we can make our lives sublime
and departing leave behind us
footprints on the sands of time

footprints that perhaps another
sailing over life's solemn main
a forlorn and shipwrecked brother
seeing shall take heart again

let us then be up and doing
with a heart for any fate
still achieving still pursuing
learn to labor and to wait


and the lyrics of "the rose" reminds us that it is
the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live

jericho
25-03-2004, 05:48 PM
pywong,

You are so right, I based my judgement not on the basis of that 'letter' alone but also from the horse's mouth. Quote Dr Wan Azizah on her recent victory :


“This victory is not about (Datuk Seri) Anwar (Ibrahim) alone, Anwar is a symbol of Keadilan but my victory represents a voice for the party and its struggles,”



So, do you mind telling me what are the other struggles (I mean REAL struggles) that Keadilan is fighting for beside Anwar ?

:)

pywong
25-03-2004, 07:10 PM
Jericho,
Keadilan's other struggles besides Anwar:
The name Keadilan says everything - Justice, Human Rights! The injustice to Anwar is just one of many injustice to many Malaysians who are detained under the ISA or in jail for fighting for freedom of speech and expression. He is a more high-profile example, that's all.

If the Keadilan name is not so potent, how else do we explain the ROS's refusal to let the merged entity of Keadilan and PRM to be called Keadilan? The ROS's stance defies all logic!

A few days back, my 19-year-old son, who is usually quite quiet about anything, suddenly blurted out, "Pa, we shouldn't be talking about Malay rights, Chinese rights, Indian rights. We are in the 21st century and we should be talking about human rights without consideration of race." Coming out from a 19-year-old, that floored me. I never realized that those stuff were going through his head. I commented with amazement to my eldest daughter about it. Her response was "Maybe his following you round over the past few days and seeing things as they really are had an impact on him."

His response gave me hope. Hope that the future is not that bleak after all. If the younger generation are becoming more aware of the actual situation, then change will come about eventually.

Joker,
Nice poem but not my forte.
What's that travelling over 50km all about?

Financial responsibility has nothing to do with supporting your DUN or MP. I suggested that we should make sure that we have taken care of our financial needs before running off to help in politics or we end up as the Cantonese use to say "Two sides cannot reach the shore", something like we end up in a mess.

I meet many party workers who were helping out during the election campaign, although they were jobless and have no income of their own. I just cannot help admiring their dedication and I feel so humbled in the face of their spirit.