Rude Malaysians!

[empress_julz]

today i went to mid valley and had the shock of my life. is it me or are malaysians getting ruder as time goes by?

i bought an ice cream at baskin robbins and took a seat. grandma came up with a child and pulled a chair out at my table and asked the child to pull a chair out for himselt to sit.

no one asked me whether it was ok, no one asked whether i was expecting anyone. the fact that she could order the child to sit on a chair that's on someone's table without asking the person first shows the rude values she's inculcating.

next the mother came with another child. and the both of them sat down at my table!

i got annoyed and got up and left. and the cheek of the lady to say "oh look, she's so upset". of course i was! i paid money to have a quiet ice cream to myself. i did not do so to share the table with rude noisy people.

it has nothing to do with sharing the table, in fact. i wouldn't mind sharing if someone asks first.

the funny thing is..... there were other tables there, but they could not be bothered to make their way there.

it was the fact that they were rude and could not be bothered to (1) get their own table, (2) ask.

i'm sick of the rudeness. i've heard all this talk about politeness, asian values, and all the usual... i'm starting to believe it's all just a show.

///ej

[saml]

Why don't you ask them to buzz off. I may be a banana but when i see things like that i make my noise and people may stare at me but i couldn't give two hoots. It happens when people cut queues and interrupt me. Two weeks ago i was sitting in front of a bank customer service staff. This woman, all dressed up i suppose she is the working lady sort just stood infront of us and started talking. I gave her a stare and looked at her from head to toe but i did not say anything. She quickly excused herself and stood quietly at the side. I have been told that my stares do have this influence on people and now i realise this is true. If she had carried on I was prepared to tell her off. By the way I am above the average malaysian in size but i don't think it was my size as i was sitting. As recent as last week whilst waitng to be served in a bank i told off the tellers as they closed off all the counters except for one and the queue was till the door couldn't be closed. Everyone in the bank looked at me and one officer apologised and quickly they reopened another counter. Sometimes i wonder when i would get whacked!!!

[empress_julz]

i don't lose my temper in public. whatever it is, i think that picking fights with people are not my thing. i may tell the person off if it means something to me, but i think my pissed off/annoyed face would send enough of a message.

whether they want to take it or not is another question. some people are incorigible.

i was so annoyed at a maybank. i was doing my banking and this stupid man walked right up to the counter and stood on my right. it's private banking, i deserve my privacy!

in that case i told him that i would "appreciate privacy". he said "oh i just want to ask a question", to which i told him to wait his turn and not interfere.

for things like that, where they really matter, i'll open my mouth.

another thing i noticed about malaysians.... the word "excuse me", "thank you", or "sorry" is absent from their vocabulary.

i was in times square a few weeks back. a mcdonalds waiter dropped a tonne of trays, one of which hit my friend on his ankle. instead of saying sorry the guy went off. i told him off, said "excuse me, but do you think you could say sorry for your mistake?" to which he apologised.

even when i get knocked into, it's rare to get a "Sorry" in kl.

at the expense of getting bashed i'm going to say this..... i have never had to put up with this rudeness in england, france or italy. or even the US.

///ej

[vsat]

Banks are the worst places to see inefficiency and rudeness. The bank tellers would represent the inefficiency and the customers would represent the rudeness.

I've been thinking about this...Imagine this..long queue...but somebody just wants to ask one question...he/she walks up to the counter and stands next to the customer in the middle of the transaction... halts the transaction and proceed to ask the teller her questions. Be it, "where do I queue up for home loans?" or
"Where is the toilet in this bank?"
I hate that. Even if the question is a brief one...it is irritating.

[empress_julz]

why can't they just ask the customer service person or the security guard?

i have no problems if someone walks up to the person at a mcdonald's and asks a question, but in a bank where someone is doing their *private* banking, that's different.

///ej

[ginaphan]

Don't start me about service in a bank! You will see the ugly side of me!

Yes, people are getting ruder. Not sure where it comes from - it's definitely not Asian!

I have a few methods to deal with it:

a) Ignore
b) Be upset and show it
c) Be especially nice and suddenly the other guy becomes extememly ashamed

This ugliness in Malaysians is getting worse. It's a syndrome that combines the ugliness of progress and the increase of kiasu-ism and the warped sense of 'personal right'. Everyone seems to think that they have the right to do many things and then have to exercise it all the time. They don't seem to think that rights (or what they *think* is their right) does not need to be exercised ALL the time. "Not losing to you is my right" is where they come from.

Many foreigners say we are very friendly and all - their standard must be really low. But then, most of us have found them to be polite when we visit their country (barring some nasty ones that we meet). So perhaps, there's rude ppl everywhere but I do agree the problem is more acute in Asia and especially in this forum recently.

I think it's our education - we only focus on the hard skills - not soft skills. How many of us concentrate on how much our children score for 'Moral Education'? We send our kids for religious classes but do we know if the classes teach much about how to teat fellowmen as a good stewardship of the religion?

And of course, how we behave in front of our kids? I have to admit that I am not always conscious about this. God help us all.

This 'rudeness' shows that people have extended their personal space/territory beyond what it is supposed to be. I am actually sometimes afraid of speaking up becuz I may get beaten up! Because the other guy may think I am being rude! and inconsiderate!

[empress_julz]

ginaphan.... the foreigners who say that malaysians are nice are usually those who merely visit. they get the five star tour guide treatment, or they have malaysian friends or host who show them around.

foreigners i know who have lived here for many years, some of whom are already malaysian citizens, beg to differ. i have an english friend who fought in malaya. he speaks fluent malay, works hard and even does charity work. he calls malaysia home. he went to the petrol kiosk to pour some petrol, and this rude malay guy got out of his car and said to the attendant, "you serve me first, i'm local", thinking the guy did not understand.

i think foreigners who drive in malaysia especially are astounded by the rudeness of malaysians on the road.

ginaphan.... i really respect your views on how the malaysian education system concentrates too much on academic and not people skills. the lack of sex education in school and the overemphasis on "women's place in society" has made males look at females as sex and material objects. the way the men talk to the women is astounding.

i think all women here have had to suffer the wrath of cat calls, those stupid squeaky sounds that guys make on the streets at us when we walk by.

where does all this rudeness come from?

///ej

[jericho]

Just look at how driver on our road behaves and you will see the ugly side of Malaysians.

[saml]

You will see the even more ugly side when there is a jam and people start jumping queues and creating 4 lanes instead of 2 and some will even go on the opposite lane. That's rudeness and when you are coming from the opposite direction and flash your lights at them, they will give you the finger.

[Timo]

I too find it strange that people say that foreigners think Malaysians are polite, when most foreign visitors I know have never said that (or if they did, they were being polite - Go figure!).

Anyway, from my perspective, Malaysians are extremely rude. I go back to Malaysia usually once a year to visit the gang back home and if for example, you could not read signs - the one way you'll know that you've arrived in KL is that no one queues up for anything. Waiting for the skytrain? Better not stand 'too far' (by that I mean outside that blue danger line) or else you may need to wait for another train, and then this process is repeated. Last year I was astonished as this couple was carrying all the luggage and pushing a baby on a tram - we missed one train and decided to wait for the next one. We were thus the only people there at the start but by the time the shuttle arrived we were surrounded by people, most of them who pushed in front of us! And when the train doors open - whoosshh... the flood of people pouring into the train cannot be described - it is almost like a herd of antelopes being chased by lions. By the way the couple did not manage to get in as it was too full within seconds.

And it does not stop there. Next stop : Duty free. Guess what? Two ladies chatting away at the counter at the shop, and when I go there to say hello, they turn to me grumpily and one of them coldly grabs my purchase while the other one waves her hand (in a come to me fashion) "Passport? PASSPORT?!". And when I say Terima Kasih they just turn their heads and start chatting away again. If I was a visitor here I that would spoil my holiday already.

By the way, another thing I noticed is that many westerners say that 'asians' are polite and we interpret that as Malaysians. Perhaps we are being too 'perasan' here? I have heard great stories of indian villagers collecting food for their guests and Iranian nomads loaning one of their camels and opening their houses to tired and thirsty foreigners who are in fact total strangers. Would we do the same?

[pcyeoh]

I am indeed utterly shocked to read that empress_julz could not tolerate to share table with a poor old lady and her grandchild. I know the Baskin Robbin ice cream does not come cheap but the price she paid for does not allow her to pass all those uncalled for comments on the poor old lady. Ginaphan has rightly pointed out that one has 3 options to react in such a situation when it is considered rude not to ask if one can share table in order to eat decently. In EJ's situation, she should have considered option 3. Just inform the poor grandma politely that she could have the table all to herself and move to the next table. What is so difficult about this? In fact, her gesture would be considered a benevalent act on her part. I was in a similar situation and I did just that and it was I who felt embarrassed when the old lady thanked me profusely!! What is there to get pissed off over an poor old lady who may be ignorant. Who is she to pass that kind of judgement on the old lady. Please remember that the old lady has consumed "more salt than EJ has eaten rice." I always remember this saying when dealing with elders - respect the elders at all times. To go against this teaching is even ruder! Just remember that not everyone is well educated and polite. Just learn how to tolerate. Even the most educated man or woman will find it hard to have this virtue.

[Timo]

If I was EJ in the same situation I would have reacted in a much more aggresive manner. And if the lady says something similar to "oh look that lady is upset" I would tell her to **** off. Let's see who gets upset then.

Also, I do not tolerate ignorance. It is not an excuse. Especially with old people who should know better since they have lived longer and I assume, learned more from their experiences, which I admit is not always the case.

And it is not about being educated or not, politeness is about looking at the other person as a human being - acknowledging the other person's humanity. Would it be so hard for the old lady to say "Excuse me, may I sit here?".

[empress_julz]

pcyeoh, i beg you to read my story again properly before you launch your raids.

on the topic of rudeness, isn't it polite to properly grasp the story of the individual before launching into scathing remarks?

or is this just the perfect oppurtunity to do so, to paint a picture that i am this evil person who takes great pleasure in assaulting old grandmothers?

i said, that i found it a bad example that a grandmother, an older person, would encourage her grandson to take a seat on a person's table without saying "please" and "thank you", i.e. asking politely.

if it is in elders that we look toward for respect, i felt that as a person this grandmother had failed her grandson and set a bad example for him to follow.

i am not going to cut her slack because she is an old lady. i have too much respect for the older people to look at them as weak and meagre things who cannot defend themselves. they are not freaks who need pity pcyeoh, they are human beings who are capable of carrying themselves properly like the rest of us should.

just because they are old, it does not give them the right to be rude or inculcate rudeness in the young.

in fact, if you had read properly, you would have noted that i did exactly what ginaphan said i should have done... i got up and i left without picking a fight with anyone or saying anything to anybody.

even when the younger woman started complaining that i got up to leave and did not look happy they crashed my table, i chose to ignore it and walk off.

talking about respect, is it polite to confront a person who is not happy that you crashed her table in such a rude manner? no it is not.

i don't get your point pcyeoh, and i don't think that you're interested in analysing the situation objectively either. nor do i think after your judgemental, harsh and scathing post about me, that you do get the true meaning of the term "respect".

i am going to say this honestly because i'm not the sort of person to hide behind a facade - but what is the *real* point you're trying to make about me?

///ej

[saml]

ej, why is it that people like to take pot shots at you. First it was in another thread, now pc yeoh is taking shots at you. From their postings i notice that their postings reflect a response that does not fully commensurate the action.

[empress_julz]

good observation saml - especially since the topic of this thread happens to be "rude malaysians".


So perhaps, there's rude ppl everywhere but I do agree the problem is more acute in Asia and especially in this forum recently.
-ginaphan

if i have the answer as to why someone would take such perverse pleasure in such trivial, meaningless bullying, i'll give it to you.

but i'm afraid that i'll never be able to comprehend, nor do i care to. i always thought that as adults we could have respect for differences and learn to disagree with tact and respect. but some people cannot appreciate that perhaps.

as a child i could never understand bullies. just because you don't like someone's face/hair/race/colour/background/etc., why be mean to them for that difference?

as an adult, i still don't understand bullies. in fact, it puzzles me even more as to why after so many years of life, would one want to resort to such primal, archaic behaviour.

///ej

[Joecool]

Baskin Robbins in Mega Mall? They do not have enough seats. Often customers have to share a table. Let's put it this way - if she asked if she can have the seats, there is a 90 percent chance the answer is a no. So why not just barge in and assume that is normal to do. Not that I agree with this time of behavior. For example if you want to change lane on a road and trigger your turning signal - 90 percent of the time the car will tighten the gaps and you will not be able to change lanes. Happens to me all the time. Do I condone this type of behavior? No but the society does encourage it though.

[empress_julz]

joecool....... i don't know where you got the figure "90%". frankly, i would let people have the chairs at my table in the restaurant, even share the table with me. unless i'm expecting someone/ other people. i think most others are like that too.

i also mentioned there were other tables that were free, they could not be bothered to go far. (i.e. two tables away)

they just plonked themselves there like they had every right to.

what if there's someone i'm expecting? what if i wanted the privacy? they should have respected that.

i am a paying customer who got a table to myself. people cannot decide on my behalf whether i should have company or not, that is my choice, like it or not.

if you're saying that it's ok that they did it because "90% of the time people would say no", then the next time i go into a restaurant of any kind that is full, i'll plonk myself at someone's table. because i know they'll probably say no, i won't bother to ask.

that's no excuse to be rude, that because one thinks they will not be allowed to sit, therefore they just plonk themselves there.

as a child i was taught that you cannot have everything you want. if you want something, you ask politely, if the answer is no, you live with it.

children know it, why can't adults?

that is the exact reasoning that people with bad behaviour you see out today use. the ones who don't signal, don't say excuse me, don't say thank you, don't bother to queue, don't say sorry, etc. etc. etc.

a few weeks ago i went out with some friends to a mamak. a guy just walked up to our table and pulled out a chair. my friend said to him, "excuse me, but that chair is taken. you could have asked first", and he looked awfully embarassed. serves him right.

if those people had asked i would have definitely said yes, even though there were *other available seats*.

and after they plonked themselves at the table, they were more than annoying, they were loud, rude, brash. they should have respected the fact that i had allowed them to sit at my table, and at least give me the oppurtunity to enjoy my ice cream in peace.

when driving, i signal at all times, no questions asked. and i only allow people through if they do signal or put their hand out and ask for way. i do not give way to people who barge in on the other hand, it is unacceptable.

just because the majority want to act uncivilised, does not mean i stoop down to their level. if it means more difficulty, i will gladly put up with it.

///ej

[Joecool]

I am not saying I agree with the behaviour. I am just saying what is the possible root cause which bred this type of behavior.

[jericho]

Originally posted by Joecool
For example if you want to change lane on a road and trigger your turning signal - 90 percent of the time the car will tighten the gaps and you will not be able to change lanes.

Yes, it always amused me to see a poor fella signals to change lane only to have the other car speed up to close the gaps.

[empress_julz]

joecool... i know you were being hypothetical. that's why i said "if you're saying..... "

jericho... that's why i drive a kelisa. when the beemer/mercedes tries to close the gap and sees me coming, the cheapo wouldn't want to bash his car up on mine and have to pay and trouble himself.

but i don't bother with taxi drivers. they will never let you go, even if you're an ambulance ferrying their mother to the hospital.

cheers.

///ej

[jericho]

In Hong Kong especially at crowded restaurant you can actually plonk yourself at someone's table and the other fella won't give a look as if you are invisible to them. And sometime there might be 3 strangers or groups of stranger sharing one table and sitting shoulder to shoulder !

But I still can't use to the fact that I have to share a table with strangers.

EJ,

Kelisa is not cheap though, can be be more expensive than a 10 yrs old Beemer/Merc :D

[empress_julz]

jericho.... then the guy would think twice about hitting my car, since he's probably broke and wouldn't want to fork out the damages on his prized antique!

i found hong kong to be the rudest spot on the planet. if we hit their level we are doomed.

especially store keepers.

i asked a store keeper whether i could see this jacket. he said "are you buying it? if you're buying it, i'll take it off the rack. if not don't waste my time".

i walked off.

///ej

[kwchang]

:p Hey EJ, you are so right about HongKong shopkeepers.

In Chinatown London, there's a great Chinese restuarant (I think it was Wong Kee or some name like that). We used to recommend everyone try it just for kicks. Would you know how the waiters control their clients? They have worked it to an art so that no one makes life difficult for them. All customers have to order from the menu with no special requests. I have seen it personnally and I thought it was hilarious....

Customer comes to an open space on the many tables. He takes a seat - there's no need to ask about sharing tables because everyone shares, no questions asked.
He gets a menu and has to make up his mind in 2 minutes.
2 minutes later, the waiter asks in one word "What?"
If the patron hesitates, the waiter walks away and comes back 5 minutes later, even when the shop is not having any more new customers.

5 minutes later, waiter comes back with his "What?.."
Customer - "Uhhh, can I have this Wonton mee but make it less oily..."
Waiter - (looking annoyed).. "cannot make changes.. you order from the menu...what do you want?"
Customer - (looking sheepish) "...Uhhhh.."
Waiter walks away and does not come back to the helpless customer for the next 10 minutes.

At another table, a customer questions a waiter about the bowl of mee. He actually wanted sauce and not soup with his mee.
Waiter says "You want the soup or not?"
Customer hesitates "...Uhhhh..."
Waiter retorts "You don't want soup?" and walks away with the soup and mee. Waiter never came back to the customer (who now has no food) while I finished my meal, paid and left. I never knew if he was ever served again. Poor sap.

Look, I'm not saying that this is typical HongKong stuff. EJ just reminded me about it. I think London should make this place one of their tourist attractions. All the students loved it because food was cheaper plus entertainment from watching the bitchy male waiters. Most times that place is packed! Despite the rudeness.

[saml]

I still remember when we took a guy who just came over. In Klang his old man was somebody. Basically we did it just for kicks. When we sat down, the waiter came and this guy as usual was taking charge. He asked the waiter what they have and you know what the waiter said. We have everything, what do you want to eat? This guy was so furious that he wanted to walk off but we managed to convince him to stay and eat. I did not really experience it but when tips are left behind these waiters would tell the customers to take it with them, they did not want their tips. This is what i was told. Could not verify it.

[Joecool]

Same goes during my time in Toronto at the Chinese restaurants on Young street. You get your order by writing on a piece of paper supplied. If you don't write Chinese don't eat there. If you tip less than a certain percentage, they will run after you and shout profanities at you. I guess the tips though making a big portion of their salaries are expected and not earned.

[jericho]

kwchang,

You are right about the Wong Kee restaurant. The waiters there are super rude but still it is always packed.

I remember during the high of Mad Cow disease, I went there with a friend and both of us had "ngau lam" noodle!! We only realised our silly mistake when we were watching news on Mad Cow disease back in the hotel room.

On the issue of rude HK shopkeepers, it is totally the opposite way now after the 1997 financial downtown. In fact if you go to HK and shop nowdays, you will find majority of the shopkeeprs extremely nice. They even thanks and wish you goodbye eventhough you leave their shop empty handed!

Actually it is not that HK people are rude, but the fact that everything is so fast paced in their life that they don't have time to dilly dally with you on politeness. Time is so precious to them.

The next time you shop in HK, just time the duration of a transaction at the cashier from the moment you hand over your stuff to the cashier and the end of the transaction when you received your change and purchase. It is super fast unlike over here where most of the cashiers took their own sweet time to complete a transaction as if like you are a burden to them. Just check out the cashiers at Fajar or Giant.

[Left 4th Finger]

Hi peeps,

My opinion on why some/most people do not ask politely for chairs at eateries...

I think some/most M'sians do not ask politely due to being hurt and pride.

Why "being hurt"? Typically, along the years of politely asking for chairs in eateries, have we observed a similar pattern? I think people do not react the way we hope for. We may have been taught from young that if we ask for something, we'll have to do it politely. And more often than not, we always expect to be responded with a polite answer and perhaps a smile! When we ask politely and do not get the polite answer and smile, we feel awkward and embarrassed in that very short instant. In our heads we might be thinking, "bugger lah this person".

Why "pride"? Well, it may be that after we were hurt from the "being hurt" episode, we realised that when we act a certain way, we may not get the "expected" reaction. Therefore, we may have consciously relearnt and retrained ourselves into thinking that if we always get such reactions despite our many attempts to be polite, might as well not be polite.

I am not providing reasons to justify to be rude but rather drawing from my own experiences. Perhaps, it would be nice that we M'sians should smile more to other M'sians. It takes two hands two clap and also to tango. So, let us all try to reward others who asked politely with a smile. Perhaps, that will encourage them on.

Smiling may not be in our culture especially with people that we do not know. Recently, I was at the Ayer Keroh Overhead Bridge and smiled at some women as I was coming out of my car, they smiled back. Interestingly, a smile begets a smile unless it is a smirk. My darling happened to notice me smiling to them and was saying that i was flirting with them. Believe me, I am no Casanova and my pure intention was to smile. Basically, it may not be normal to smile at total strangers for M'sians.

Why I'm saying this is due to several past experiences. I never really accustomed to smiling especially when i had my braces which was decades ago... ok, make that 1 decade ago. Finally, I decided that one day I should smile more and it really helped get thru a day easier. I smile more when I see the person with a grumpy face, boring face, sad face but more importantly, when they person smiles at me. As the saying goes, "Smile and the whole world smiles with you."

Of course I have encountered the ocassions where my smile was not reciprocated but hey, it never hurts to smile unless it is a smirk.

Everyone... :D

p.s. I think if we smile more especially when people asks politely, we may inadvertently fuel more politeness and friendliness.

[Timo]

I have been told once that people don't smile because others may think you are crazy or a weirdo, or even a pervert. I try to smile often but most of the time I get funny looks back.

[empress_julz]

i think they're just plain not bothered, that's all.

come on, who *logically* thinks that if you smile you'll be labelled a weirdo or lose your pride?

that may be the view of the minority, but over all, people are just not bothered.

///ej

[saml]

Basically we do not have a hospitality cullture. In places like thailand and indonesia, it is an inborn thing, they are by nature gentle people and that's for the majority. In the more developed countries, when people are in the hospitality/customer service they are very professional. Even if they smile and offer to help you know it is not sincere but they at least make an attempt to do it. You cannot fault anyone for not being sincere, how can you accuse a person of not giving you an insincere smile. Over here even those in the hospitality industry do not even attempt to give an insincere smile. Again i am talking of the majority. Even the lower rank and file staff of 5 star hotels are guilty of that. The supervisors and managers are very good at it.

[empress_julz]

saml i worked in hotels for years in kl, and i can tell you the hospitality staff are very good. even the door men, waiters and waitresses, and the bell boys smile at all times. it is a quality standard that has to be observed.

in the hotels i worked in, protocol dictates that you greet the customer within the first 40 seconds of their arrival to your establishment. their order has to be taken within the first 4 minutes.

those you noticed working as waiters and waitresses? many of them have degrees who are doing their internship. many hotels have programs as well where by the managers have to work as waiters/ cleaners / bellboys for one day a week.

///ej

[osama]

having an ice cream at Baskin Robin?it is a public eating place and anybody can sit anywhere they like. Tables are not reserved for anybody.Its just like taking a seat in public buses. In fact the one who do not give way to the elderly is actually the rude one.

If anybody want to show their ego and glamour,just go to somewhere exclusive where a cup of ice cream can cause u fortune.There you can have the whole table to yourself!

Anyone else is also a paying customer and the tables are not the property of any customer.

[Joecool]

I remember Maybank some years ago launched a "Smile" campaign. Maybe it has something to do with their raising of the corporate profile but it was on TV almost every day for weeks. Today, that is forgotten. I remember the song they used was a song I used to sing during my camping times as a kid. It goes something like this :

A Smile is such a funny thing
It wrinkles up your face
And when it's gone it's hard to find
It's secret hiding place

But much more if what a smile can do
You smile at one
She smiles at you
Then one smile has made two.

I am sure the lyrics are wrong in more than one place. Perhaps some of the people here can correct me?

[empress_julz]

osama, the subject is on "politeness" and not on "rights". those are two very different things.

you have rights, but you can be polite when exercising them.

i know that to some people (like how you admitted, you yourself) they go around barging their big egos around because they have the "right to" therefore they "can". they don't bother to say "please" or "thank you" or "excuse me, but would it be okay if i...."

who would say no to that? who would fault them for wanting to be nice?

this is about people taking the time to be "polite" to "ask nicely" first, concepts which run a little bit deeper because they cannot be forced, and only the big hearted would be willing to give.

the rest just demand.

///ej

[jericho]

i agree with saml about the inborn thing nature of the thailand and indonesia. another good example is the vietnamese, which i really respect. even with the past wars and economic hardship, they are really friendly and their smiles are genuine.

[empress_julz]

notice this thing about thailand, indonesia and vietnam.... they're poor, and they probably value the little things in life more than the more developed.

///ej

[empress_julz]

If anybody want to show their ego and glamour,just go to somewhere exclusive where a cup of ice cream can cause u fortune.There you can have the whole table to yourself!


on the subject of "rights", i was just wondering osama....

are you advocating that only the rich who can afford it have a right to be treated with dignity and respect, the rest of the world has to deal with being shoved around?

that's the implication i get, and if that's true then it's not a very nice reality.

and i don't know about you, but baskin robbins is expensive - it is one of the priciest brands of ice cream in the market today. if paying ten bucks for ice cream is not a lot, i dont know what is.

///ej

[empress_julz]

kwchang... i only just read your post...

where is wong kee? is it somewhere near loon fung grocery store?

if i do go for chinese food in london, i usually go for duck rice on wardour street, chinatown in a small little dingy place, or at bayswater.

either that or i go to kam fung at red lion street... you can even custom order anything that's not on the menu.

why the guys at these places are rude? most of them are from hong kong anyway :D

god i miss london. the chinese food there is D best.

///ej

[saml]

where did you get the idea that thais are poor. i agree that there are poor thais and i do know quite a few rich thais, they do not look down on the poor thais and when they speak to them it is with humility. Over there age is a overriding factor when it comes to respect rather than wealth. Even when a rich dude buys something from a street vendor , the rich dude will be very humble and offer thanks when given what they purchased. As i said it is a cultural thing. Similarly javanese are extremely polite, in general i mean. Forget about those robbers/thieves that we hear so often, in their country the majority of the people are not like that. I can walk the streets of jakarta at night whithout much fear unlike jb where every other person is like a thug/kidnapper. No offence to the jb folks.

[empress_julz]

saml, you are talking about the major cities like bangkok and jakarta. chances are you visited tourist spots outside the area too, none of which are representative of the general situation in the country.

the average thai and indonesian is poor. the fact that there is a booming trade in both prostitution and child prostitution is testament to that fact. malaysia and singapore do not have this problem, but the poorer countries in south east asia (and the rest of the world) do.

i do know a lot of rich thais and indonesians. i also know a lot of middle class thais and indonesians too, but they are not representative of the majority of the population.

///ej

[empress_julz]

Taken from the World Bank website:

Indonesia
Population : 213.6 million
Surface area : 1,904.6 thousand sq. km
Population per sq. km : 116.2
Population growth : 1.5 %
Life expectancy (2002): 66 years
Population below national poverty line % (1999): 27.1
GNI per capita : 680US$
GDP : 145.3 billion US$

that's 57.89 million people living below the poverty line in indonesia. mind you that does not take into account the *poor*, the poverty line is the absolute minimum level one can survive on.

and this was a decline from 60% a few years back.

i can't seem to get the data on thailand, but there are some sources that say that it was pretty good till the economic crisis kicked in.

///ej

[Left 4th Finger]

Smile, smile, smile :D :D :D

Even when one smiles to a baby, they smile back.

Smile, smile, smile :D :D

[dr_luv]

kam fung at red lion street ?? ....hee *smile* ....talking about rude and crowd malaysians ..haa try to go Thaipuzam at batu cave.

[saml]

When a country is poor it does not make for happy citizens and when they are poor they do not necessarily have to be prostitutes. Look at china and india but you don't see prostitution as prevalent as in thailand. BTW i was working in kalimantan for some years and generally the people are poor, they do not have nice hotels and the hospitality industry is not developed at all yet the people are friendly, always with a smile.

[empress_julz]

prostitution not prevalent in china and india? you're joking.... read the recent scandal involving a whole lot of japanese businessmen over on official business...

apart from that, child and women trafficking in china is huge....

http://www.cwa.tnet.co.th/vol13-2&3/cv14n32.htm

Estimates range from 200,000 to 500,000 children. It is believed there is an increasing number of young girls entering the local sex industry and lured to surrounding countries. Girls from the pastoral villages of the minority tribes in Yunnan province in south western China are being tricked by phoney offers of jobs and then being sold into prostitution in Thailand. According to the Chinese police, since 1989 about 5,000 Chinese girls have been lured across the rugged Burmese mountains that separate the two countries and sold as prostitutes. The majority of kidnapped girls are members of the Tai or Akha tribes who inhabit the border region. The Akha are also known as Hani in China. In 1994 the Peking People's Daily reported that more than 10,000 women and children are abducted and sold each year in Sichuan alone. It went on to state that "more than one million prostitutes are serving affluent businessmen and visitors from Taiwan and Hong Kong".

if you know where to go, there are a tonne of prostitutes in china and india. all selling their bodies for 50c USD at times.

china has the fastest growing AIDS rates in the world.

///ej

[kwchang]

Hey people, EJ especially (who asked) -
I have found a write up on the net about this rude restaurant -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A261019

That is the exact description of that place. Thanks EJ for mentioning Wardour Street - that rang some bells for me as my memory is failing as the years progress.

So, anyone going to London MUST make this one time visit. But follow the recommendations in that website above unless you want to be abused !

Man, I do miss London. But EJ, it don't have the best food - HongKong still has the best.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I believe that almost all of us are speaking from representation. In other words, we represent and tell a story from a) personal actual experiences, b) personal observations, c) as told by others, and d) what we have read/seen from the mass media. If we are going to raise a hypothesis whether smiling has to do with people in poor countries, we would need to do a research with studies into existing social theories as well as studying in depth the country’s economy, political structure, religions and social structures. Which, I am sure, none of us are doing or prepared to do. Thus – forgive an old man for rambling on – back to my contention that we all speak from representation. And in representation there are no absolutes. There is no right and wrong. I have never been in Indonesia until an opportunity came in October when I stayed in Jakarta for five days. I stayed in a moderately good hotel, Hotel Santika in Jalan Aipda. My knowledge of Indonesia is thus confined to Hotel Santika, the immediate surrounding areas and the company in which I have business dealings with. I can only speak from this extremely limited availability. I cannot speak for Indonesia and its 200 million people. I can only speak based on my personal interaction with some 20 people I have the good fortune to meet.

I love the Indonesian people. Contrary to what has been painted in our local media, Indonesia is not a ‘fanatical’ country when it comes to religion. The civil unrests in the past were caused by politics and not racial per se. My business acquaintance is Indonesian Chinese. He is proud to be an Indonesian. He told me about his financial loss suffered during the riots but he was not bitter. He blamed it on hatred cleverly manufactured and maneuvered by politicians and carried out by vicious henchmen. He is a very kind and knowledgeable man. He treats his staff much better than I have seen Malaysian counterparts treating their staff in my 28 years of working life in many different companies. When we were out for lunch – simple lunch in a shopping mall, one of his sales staff has her handbag stolen. She lost her handphone. This great man took out his wallet and paid for the handphone. All his staff, including his driver, all ate on the same table as us. I observed my surrounding in the shopping mall. It was packed with shoppers. Not a single woman wear traditional dress. It was all blouses, denims, office wears and short skirts. In fact in my five days there, I have yet to see a woman wearing traditional attire.

But are they religious? Absolutely. During our meetings and exhibitions, the female staff would ask to be excused to go to pray. One of the ladies – let’s call her Didi – for the sake of our story, noticed my quizzical look. She told me: “Pak CHL, wearing short skirts and heavy make-up has nothing to do with our religion. Our religion comes from the heart, not the exterior to put up a front that we are holy”. At last, I understood. Well, more stories to tell at another time, as I do not want to bore all of you with my little snippets of stories. And oh yes, before I forgot, the taxi drivers (if you ask for the Blue Bird Cabs) speak reasonable English, they are friendly and polite and yes…. read my lips, they always use the meter. Now, at this early juncture, if you tell me how can I use this limited experience to generalize the whole of Indonesia. Of course, I cannot and I am not generalizing. I am speaking from specific experiences – which I am sure you all are. I am just representing my story of what I have personally experienced and from this experience, I come to the conclusion that Indonesian people are very friendly people, always polite, always smiling, always eager to serve.

More than I can say if I were to take the same 'sample size' in the Summit, Subang Parade, Giant or Pyramid Shopping Malls. More than I can say for all my 28 years of work in different companies.

[kwchang]

More links for you about Wong Kei at Wardour Street -

http://www.geocities.com/kevinrwells/wongkei.html
This one has a lot of comments from people that had visited the place. Brings back sweet memories. Unfortunately, someone said that place has burnt down - Aarrghhh !!

http://www.wguides.com/city/1/95_113.cfm
short mention here

http://www.london-eating.co.uk/2971.htm
Lots more customer experiences

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&pc=W1D6PY&cat=res
Map of chinatown with red circle for Won Kei

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/cityguide_travel/city_guide/wong_kei/_review/250715/
One more anecdote for those who still need more reading

[ng]

Joecool,

It is yonge street and not young street. Anyway, when I was in toronto chinatown, I did not experience anything bad even when I did not tip. Maybe I went to the cheaper restaurants....

[GwaiLO]

I am a bit suprised that Wong Kee's reputation has travelled so far! Wong Kee's became something of an institution for us Londoners

As kwchang reports, there was indeed a fire there. It has now been refurbished and has reopened. Sadly the management seems to have changed and the waiters are now very polite, so the place has lost some of its magic in a way.

Believe it or not we always went to Wong Kee's because the waiters were rude and took great pleasure in being rude back and messing them around.

[GwaiLO]

o

[kwchang]

Gwailo,
It is more fun if you understand Cantonese as the waiters will pass remarks and talk amongst themselves.

I'm shattered to hear that they are now more polite. That takes away all the fun. Someone ought to tell them to do business as usual. Maybe they offended a triad member and the triads burnt it down? How sad.

[Joecool]

Yes. I stand corrected on the spelling of the street. In fact I never found out the spelling of the name of the street as I always refer to it in Cantonese. Toronto is such a lovely place to live in and would be my dream retirement city. Only if I can afford to retire there though.

[uchangeng]

Talking about food in the UK..

no offence here, but let me relate my side of the story. I went to London some two years ago. My kind English host drove me there all they way from Bristol and ordered a Peking Duck dish with plum source. It taste terrible.

On the same business trip, I was brough to an Indian restaurant in Bath. The curry look pretty but it was so hot that it numed all your taste buds on contact. You couldn't feel your tongue hanging out after eating it. May be that has something to do with the Englishman measure of manhood?

Lastly, the Scottish food. It was volumuos amount of mashed potatoes and a large piece fried chiken, so hard I could not tear it apart not to mention chewing it down. Then came the haggis, sausages with blood and everything from the pig that you could not eat outright inside. No good.

I just love my sambal belacan with ikan goreng asam!

[patrick]

Wong Kee....terribly rude place! Throw the cups, plates etc. I much prefer the nice Chinese Rest in Bayswater...think it's call China Palace or something.

EJ, I think I know which duck rest you are talking about! Have been there myself! That's the one with the long queue isnt it?

There is another very decent and reasonable rest in Greenich. If I remember correctly it's called Big Bowl Noodle or something. Not exactly the best of Chinese food but it's very reasonable by London standard. And the portion is really BIG!! Cant miss it if you head towards the riverside where they have the old sail ship on exhibition.

And as for Toronto, I never had any problems either in Chinatown. On the contrary, they were pretty friendly all the time. Actually, I rarely come across rude service staff overseas.....maybe just my luck. Oh...except Wong Kee of course! ;-)

[GwaiLO]

kwchang, I do understand some cantonese. However, my experiences of Wong Kee's is all a long long time ago. I think my last visit was at leat 20 years ago.

I am married to a Chinese Malaysian and a large number of my friends are Chinese, so if we eat at Chinese places we tend to go to less well known places where the food is more authentic.

uchangeng, no offence taken. There are many places where you can get very good food of almost any nationality in London, but equally there are a lot of poor restaraunts too.

Curry is a different matter I'd say. Lots of Brits, me included, like thier curries very very hot. Not very authentic I'd agree, but there are more and more indian restaraunts opening up that do make authentic South Asian food. There really is no doubt that compared with 15-20 years ago, when eating out in London was awful, things have improved beyond recognition.

Patrick, the only place I have eaten recently in Greenwich is the Peninsula which is on the ground floor of the Holiday Inn near the dome. They do great dimsum and you get queues of Chinese families there every sunday.

Actually one of my favourite places is Malay House in Paddington. A favourite of Mahathir I am told although I have never seen him there. We have even discovered a Nonya place in Croydon would you believe?

Must go now....I am suddenly feeling hungry.