poverty we never see.

[uchangeng]

My job takes me to many "low-cost-countries", LCCs..

The last one year, I have been in and out of Indonesia and I have come to realised one thing. Indonesia is a very very poor country. I believe many of u also know this, but how many really come into contact with such desperately poor people.

Let me provide some insight into how desperately poor those Indon workers that I have come across. In Batam Island, an average hard labour working in a construction site is paid an equivalent of less RM12.00 a day. A semi-skill, is paid less than RM15.00 a day.

It is common to see young indon men work without shoes at construction sites, carrying concrete.

In manufacturing, average wages for a non-skill worker is less than RM300 a month all inclusive. A college graduate manager is paid an average RM2,500 a month.

I walk the street and young people(woman and man) often come up to me asking for " Sumbangan untuk makan".

This is a country poverty striken. People are desperate and unemployment rate is no where to be known. Too high.

In a situation like this, the country is always in a "volatile" stage. Her people are hungry. The gap between the haves and the have-nots are far too wide. In this sense, as a Malaysian, I am glad that our country has set the right policy 30 years ago to narrow the gap in the New Economic Policy. Although many Ali Babas are created along the way, the policy still works in some modes way.

These same poor people who come to our country will resort to stealing and even daylight robberies out of desperation. Are we save living in a regoin of such poor country? What shall we do? Do we have the resources to enrich our neighbour?

[osama]

Hav'nt we seen the poverty in our own country? or do we refuse to see them? or are they being succesfully blocked from our view?
Kuman seberang laut nampak tapi gajah depan mata tak nampak!
Please do something.

[joker2107]

uchangeng, u opened a bar of chocolates but i'd say that u did it to put in some worms.
quote:
"... narrow the gap in the New Economic Policy. Although many Ali Babas are created along the way, the policy still works in some modes way. "
unquote.

using this issue to compare msia and indonesia is like comparing oranges and lemons. the poverty there is undeniably extreme, and the eg u provided are hardly insightful of the greater majority of take home incomes.
as i see it the nep is not a vehicle to narrow the income disparity gap. it was an instrument of parliament to redistribute the nations resources "more equitably" among the different major ethnic groups. this it may have achieved but bridging poverty takes much more than ali baba and his barrels of oil.
the ugly side of nep has is that it created a power base in politics to enrich to mega rich status slightly more than a handful of bumis. as u rightly put it, ali baba propogated countless offsprings through the nep opportunities.

if u want to talk poverty in negara ku, u must travel beyond the concrete of putrajaya and usj and penang and jb. go back to mother nature and weave thru the foliage of the estates/plantations which once used to provide the mainstay of our economy when they "tumpah darahku". even to this day there are "employees of public listed co" seeing less that rm300 per month. not much different from yr indon eg but in a very different cost of living milieu. and thats only the richer of the poor, that we can see because of the news. beyond the commodity bearing trees where our senses do not traverse lie livelihoods which depend on river water, firewood, and if they ar elucky, paraffin for light at night, all for the want of knowing what a red local currency note is.

the nep is a monumnet of the cities only. it did not really juxtapose the economic classes, rather built humongous economic pies so that urban dwellers had more to eat. but the share is almost proportionate among those who got their hands to it.

if u wanna talk poverty, travel to china. even beijing. the sight of poverty may make u resolve to go on a diet. to refrain from luxuries.

yes, poverty is everywhere. but to compare the geographically diminished msia agst the extensive land masses of other countries, to compare a population of 22mil agst more than 100 mil - that is comparing coca cola against the chendol man in his sarong on his tricycle under the tree beside the main road.

[TepenPucong]

Uchangeng,
I do agree with what joker and osama wrote. Why do you want to compare Malaysia with other poverty stricken country?

You ask :

Are we save living in a regoin of such poor country? What shall we do? Do we have the resources to enrich our neighbour?

Let me ask you, are we rich enough to enrich our neighbour? What are their administration do on settling this problem?

Let me take closer back here to our Negaraku. If we are rich enough, why do we still have people living in unhealthy condition, squtters, people begging for money for operation or medication (we see this everyday in the newspaper either chinese, malay or indian).

Why the heck do we need a foreign prince to sponsor the separation of the siamese twins or a handicapped Briton that initially helped in bringing out the issue?

Then again Mr. Uchangeng you quoted :

My job takes me to many "low-cost-countries", LCCs..
The last one year, I have been in and out of Indonesia and I have come to realised one thing. Indonesia is a very very poor country. I believe many of u also know this, but how many really come into contact with such desperately poor people.

I think you should as your employer to cut short your trip more often to Indonesia. Suggest them to send you to travel to inner area of Kedah,Perak, Pahang, Terengganu, Kelantan, or even the nearest that you can visit on your own time, Kg Datuk Harun, Kampung Kerinchi, Chinese Kampung around Cheras or Balakong.

You have the opportunity to see other country poor condition, but what about your own?

[Joecool]

Hmm. Poor people. They are everywhere. Just we don't see them because we don't frequent the places they are in. My last trip to India's Hyderabad was one example. I was ushered in and out of hotels and offices and would have thought that everyone in India was having enough to eat. But since I had a weekend there, I ask the driver to work overtime (paid him RM 200 for it, his 1 month salary) to drive me around his usual hangouts. I saw for myself what I feel must have moved Mother Theresa's heart. People lying on the street. Too weak to swat the flies that is on them. The car inched along the whole trip as we are always surrounded by extremely skinny boys and girls whose livelihood is determined by how much they managed to beg. This city is supposed to be the "Silicon Valley of India" but slums are everywhere and there is no running water. Unfortunately I am not mega rich and cannot help them all. Nor am I going to dedicate my life towards full charity work. I guess I am a bit selfish? I need to take care of my family? Fast forward to the next week. I go to Mumbai. Drove along some of the houses of the mega rich that have houses that makes them look like maharajahs. With expensive gleaming cars. The rich and poor disparity is always there. I think India is trying to use education to hopefully bridge the gap in the future. By selling overseas their one commodity - the knowledge worker. Sorry. I digress.

[patrick]

I am not for any side in this debate. But I do want to share my own experience. I thought I was poor when I was in school in Kedah. Until I went to the kampong to provide free tuition ,as a Rotaract Club Member, to poor children during our school holidays. Such was the experience that everytime I recall them, tears still well up in my eyes. And my heart still aches for them. I would never have imagined how poor these poor Malay families were until I had stayed with them. And I fully appreciated why Dr M was in a 'Dilema' when he wrote about the padi kuncha system etc.

It was then as a student that I realised that though I did not benefit the 'handouts' that my Malay classmates and friends received, it was the right thing to do. They deserved it more than me. I might have been poor but they were much worse off.

I strongly believe the NEP is the right thing to do to help our poor countrymen. But I dont want to get into a debate whether it has achieve it's end and how well it has been organised. That is for you to decide.

Just to share with you folks my two bits worth. Whatever, always be thankful for what we have, and let's try to help those who are less fortunate.


Regards.

[xweird]

I was wondering.. what is the purpose of the NEP? If it's to bridge the poverty gap, then what does ethnicity have to do with the bigger picture? As we see it now, there are already many well-to-do Malay families, as there are still poor non-Malay families.

I would think that the next step in the NEP would be to gear it toward a non-racial policy that would allow all Malaysians who fit the criteria to benefit from it.

I believe this is the next best thing to do, lest the NEP becomes a free feeding ground for already stuffed-to-the-brim vultures.

[uchangeng]

I come from Kedah, from a small kampung nelayan (fishing villege) called Tanjung Dawai, just opposite of Pantai Mederka. And I know what it was being poor in Kedah back in the 60s. BUT, it was never like what I witness in Indonesia today. Those Indon I saw was dirt poor.

Back in the 70s, NEP was a noble new idea, it was intended to help the down trodden poors. BUT I must agree that it is a racial divide policy that favours a chosen ethnic group. Like all man made policies, NEP is no where near perfect. It's implementation is so badly politicised and abused and I do not intend to indulge in debating on it. Despite all that, I still believe it does achieve a modest good in keeping the particular ethnic group within the coalition government.

Imagine, what would be the present scenario without the NEP.?

An ala-Taliban Malaysia?

Another Indonesia?

A Philipines style of government, 5 presidents within 15 years and plenty of coups?

We should be thankful to our PM. for what we have today.

[clfoo]

Take your time to think ...
Something that Mother Teresa said before her death.
Please take time to read and reflect to oneself.

When I pick up a person from the street, hungry, I give him a plate of rice, a piece of bread. But a person who is shut out, who feels unwanted, unloved, terrified, the person who has been thrown out of society - that spiritual poverty is much harder to overcome.
Those who are materially poor can be very wonderful people.
One evening we went out and we picked up four people from the street. And one of them was in a most terrible condition. I told the Sisters: "You take care of the other three; I will take care of the one who looks worse."
So I did for her all that my love can do. I put her in bed, and there
was such a beautiful smile on her face. She took hold of my hand, as she said one word only: "Thank you" - and she died.
I could not help but examine my conscience before her. And I asked: "What would I say if I were in her place?" And my answer was very simple. I would have tried to draw a little attention to myself. I would have said: "I am hungry, I am dying, I am cold, I am in pain," or something. But she gave me much more - she gave me her grateful love. And she died with a smile on her face.
Then there was the man we picked up from the drain, half eaten by worms and, after we had brought him to the home, he only said, "I have lived like an animal in the street, but I am going to die as an angel, loved and cared for." Then, after we had removed all the worms from his body, all he said, with a big smile, was: "Sister, I am going home to God" - and he died.
It was so wonderful to see the greatness of that man who could speak like that without blaming anybody, without comparing anything. Like an angel - this is the greatness of people who are spiritually rich even when they are materially poor....

Life
Life is an opportunity, benefit from it.
Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realise it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is costly, care for it.
Life is wealth, keep it.
Life is love, enjoy it.
Life is mystery, know it.
Life is a promise, fulfil it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it.
* Mother Teresa

[uchangeng]

clfoo,

i am touched indeed by your input. never blame anyone, not even God.

[kwchang]

Putting things in perspective, I believe uchangeng was simply sharing what he has experienced in his Indonesia visit.

However, Joker's comments about comparing coke with cendol is very valid. In a populous country like India or Indonesia, poverty is very obvious. That is simply due to the exodus of people to large cities to try their luck in making a living. When too many people try to get a slice of the pie in the cities, you get masses of the people who are totally unprepared to survive in another world which has higher costs of living.

We are very lucky to have a relatively small population. We also should not forget the foresight of the authorities in encouraging developments in other parts of the country to spread out the distribution of job-seekers so that we do not have the hordes clamouring for the crumbs at the Klang Valley.

Just a note here to tickle your thoughts on this discussion...

When I was in Langkawi. I was captivated by the almost life-like gekkos (house lizards) which were made from cloth (with reptilian skin patterns) stuffed with sand. They not only look like the real thing but also had sufficient weight (due to the sand-filling) to make others cringe if you dropped it on their laps! I asked the helper in the souvenir shop if the little lizards were made by the kampong folk in Langkawi - I was agast to note that they were all made in Thailand, just like the colorful t-shirts for tourists. It made me think why our locals were not so resourceful to start such cottage industries when the Thais across the border can tap on our tourist industry by just being extra imaginative. Can someone tell me I am wrong, that there are resourceful Malaysians in our midsts who had been creative enough to do something to overcome their poverty on their own steam?

[uchangeng]

kwchang, thanks for your input.

I was 'terrified' by the degree of poverty I witnesses in rural Indonesia and feel compelled to share it with our fellow forumers. People practically do not eat rice there, they ate roots! And we know from our geography lesson that Java produces good crops of rice. Anyway, mine being sadden by what I witness, my contention here is : Poverty of such degree is a fertile ground for ala-Osama terrorism breeding. That is why my asking of "Are we capable of a safe living in a neighbourhood of abject poverty?"

Would OIC with all their oil money help out with a practical plan?

[osama]

Imagine, what would be the present scenario without the NEP.?

An ala-Taliban Malaysia?

Poverty of such degree is a fertile ground for ala-Osama terrorism breeding.

Ello kawan, apa lu cakap ah...what are u trying to do? Poverty is the product of the greedy kapitalis,the cruel money lender. Better watch your step man!!!

[Joecool]

Is not Indonesia a member of the OPEC? Did the country get robbed of its riches by a greedy president? Did Saddam not rob its country of its riches as well with the opulent palaces while his own is starving?

Did the NEP help? I think so. Did it work as planned? To some degree I think. I think it should be continued until poverty is "eradicated" although I think 100 percent eradication might not be possible.

My opinion on Osama bin Laden : He is championing what he believes in but is he doing it the right way? I guess the right way is subject to intepretation. Does having no rich people in the country mean everyone is going to be happy? Does living in a lifestyle similar to the middle-ages suit everyone? Does it make this whole world a better place if we have no need for electricity? After all, if there are no capitalist I bet there won't be any electrical products either. We should all live off the land. Let's see. If Osama bin Laden successfully get his hand on atomic weapons as he intends, we might just have to do that.

[osama]

Does living in a lifestyle similar to the middle-ages suit everyone?

The lifestyles of people nowadays are worst than the stone ages.


Does it make this whole world a better place if we have no need for electricity? After all, if there are no capitalist I bet there won't be any electrical products either.

You seemed yo forget the time when the whole world flock to Andalusia to learn knowledge.

Joecool,I supposed its time for you to have a 'Matkool':D

[Joecool]

Seems to me you seriously think you are bin laden's son. With a single thought - those who are not with me are against me. I guess maybe without electricity, without propagation of knowledge, without books, without capitalism - you think you can then instill the fear of your god to the people. What a misguided person this Osama bin laden is. Or maybe he wants to rule the world?

[clfoo]

Osama:
Looks like in this thread you have the habit of taking cheap shot at 1 or 2 sentences of those who disagree with you with your shallow thought, allow me to practice what I just learned from you on your good self.

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lifestyles of people nowadays are worst than the stone ages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the modern lifestyle is so bad, you sure got a choice to continue live like in stone age don’t you? So, I suppose you are not driving any car or being a TNB customer now, then I wonder how you manage to post your message here without PC and internet?
Or you merely a follower of: Follow my preaching, ask not my doing??? If so, watch your step too, almighty is watching.

I know this is bad taste, but just let you have a chance to enjoy your own style and growing up. Btw, I don’t plan to response to any of your attack if there is any. Make my day, Vrrroooooommmm …..

[osama]

those who are not with me are against me
this is what your godfather says!

you think you can then instill the fear of your god to the people. everybody should be godfearing!


Or maybe he wants to rule the world? It is your godfather who is behaving like the sheriff of the world trying to rule the world!

[Cool Hand Luke]

Some posts do not deserve a reply. When I was young, my mother used to tell me that to argue with a fool made you a bigger fool. As I have said, some posts do not deserve a reply. So let's move on. There are other things in life which are more important. Joecool, Clfoo and others - I raise a glass of red wine to you; a toast: TO LIFE.

[uchangeng]

OK... Ok.., fellow forumers, this thread is intended to raise our awareness that we have neighbours who are dirt poor in Indonesia and that we should be thankful for what we have. To this end, we thank our PM for 22 years, Dr. M.. Unless he changes his mind next week?!

We are not here to outwit each other, run down our fellow forumers or raise deviationist arguement.

Let's look at a larger picture, for the larger goods of our fellow neighbours. The question is what can we do? Let me say this, in the EU., citizens are allow to work cross border without any immigration restriction. To tap into the vast labour supplies from our neighbouring countries that are obviously cheaper so that we can be as competitive as China, do you think it is a good idea to also allow cross border work permit among the ASEAN member countries? This means, people from Indon. and The Philipine can come to work here in Malaysia. This way, you and I will not have hiring and firing maids problem, factory and construction sites will have ample supplies of labour.

Give this a serious thought, who knows, this may work for us.

[jericho]

uchangeng

your suggestion on creating a borderless working permit within ASEAN will definitely won't work (as least for now). All the labour forces in the poorer countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Laos and Indonesia will flock to the richer countries like Thailand, Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore. Thus you will have a problem of mass migration of people from poorer countries to the richer one leaving their poorer countries to be much poorer.

The EU is a bit different since most of the economic of these EU members countries are quite balance in a way and not like these in Asean.

[mlin]

- When I was young, my mother used to tell me that to argue with a fool made you a bigger fool...

CHL,

My mum used to tell me that people who got angry only make themself look silly...!

[Cool Hand Luke]

You have a wise mother, Mlin. All I know is that when I get angry, it takes time for me to cool down and in that time I would have upset many other people and make them angry as well. It has a snowballing effect. So it is not worth it. I got some good advices (yes, even an old man needs reminding now and then) from some friends in Jakarta and especially from Lady-O. And that is living your life to the fullest. Take a day at a time and live your life to the fullest.

:)

[lleetze]

There is this couple Mr. A and Mrs A. They started their family with a hut (in a rubber plantation), a pot, coconut shell as bowl, blanket, a straw mat, a few pieces of cloths and some rice. They don't own the hut neither the land. They earn a living by working as a rubber tapper. Over the years, they also work as labourer at construction site, as farmer, as clerk.
Mr. and Mrs A is determine to own a piece of land. At times, they works from 5:30am to 2:00am. Eventually, they own a piece of land and a house, the life has not improved a lot for the first 10 years, they never gave up.

B was born into this poor family, in a house that has no cement flooring, no treated water and no electricity. During his early years, there was a disaster that affected the family, they were in heavy debt, salted eggs and Chai Por is his family's regular food. There are times he was kept standing at his uncle's shop when he wanted to loan food from his uncle. He never had new cloths (except school uniform) until he was about 12 years old.

At 7 yrs old, he works in the farm from 1:30pm to about 6:30pm daily. When he was older, he cycled for about 5 to 7 km to help the parents in other farms.

B is working very hard at school, at home and in the farm. He sometimes had less than 5 hours of sleep in a day. His mother always reminds him to excel in his studies. He was determined to excel and always did his best.

Today, the once poor A has assets worth > a million Ringgit. The once poor B obtained a degree and works as a manager. Most of B' brothers and sisters are either doing quite well or very well.

The moral of the story is
A PERSON WOULD LIVE A BETTER LIFE, IF HE HAS RIGHT VALUE AND RIGHT ATTITUDE.
To help a person, teach him the right value and attitude.

As Dr. M said, to certain extend he has failed, failed to instil the right value into his people. The Chinese proverb says, even a mountain of gold can be exhausted, what more handouts?

In my opinion, in another country, the government is in the best position to help their citizen - by instiling right value and attitude through education.

[uchangeng]

A lazy man is a poor man. How true is this.

No point to debate about handouts. You and me, who do not have a "bin" in between our names, will never get any of it. Might as well work hard, work smart and make the best out of whatever is left for us to work on.

[osama]

Yes, mahadir has has failed miserabaly to control his cronies from grabbing all the hand-outs. when the cronies gone bankrupt he bailed them out with the rakyat money and the mountain of golds and he shamelessly blamed the rakyat for his own failures!

[uchangeng]

Dr. M has one consolation prize: at least those who are still lazy and and refuse to improve and remain poor can no longer blame him for not doing enough.

For the past 22 years, the BN did everything a contry could to provide the opportunities, handouts, even free moneys, name it and you have it and if you still don't make it, sorry lah "bruder", if these don't work, nothing can.

But to those at whose expense the NEP was built on, be equally proud that you make it after 22 years. You are not dead, but emerge ever stronger and ready to compete with anyone there is to compete. In this respect, do not blame these people for not interested in joining the arm force and the police, they have to fence for their stomach 1st!

[osama]

For the past 22 years, the BN did everything a contry could to provide the opportunities, handouts, even free moneys, name it and you have it They were given to cronies and barua's. These people have no xpertise in business.so they will pass the project to whoever can bribe them the most. so in the end it's not the poor people that get the benefit from NEP but the leeches businessmen.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Preserving Malaysia’s style is Dr Mahathir’s Wish

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia must ensure that it keeps doing things its own way to maintain the progress achieved so far, said Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad. The Prime Minister said that it was his hope to see the people continue to live in comfort after his retirement as a result of the nation's progress.

“We have succeeded in building a country that has given us a good life, that has given us pride, that is respected by everybody. “We have done all this our way, and we must always try and preserve this way of ours so that in coming years Malaysia will continue to develop and progress and its people will continue to live in comfort.

“This is the wish of all of us. This is also my wish when I step down from the political arena,” Dr Mahathir, who is retiring on Friday, said yesterday when opening the 50th general assembly of the People's Progressive Party (PPP) at the Putra World Trade Centre here.

He said Malaysia had done many things that were not done in other countries, like making every festive celebration a national celebration to strengthen unity among the people. “It's our way of fostering ties among the communities, among the followers of different religions,” he said.

Dr Mahathir said that as a result of the country's success, Malaysians were able to make a living abroad but were also proud to be Malaysians at the same time. “There are 3,000 Malaysians in Papua New Guinea where previously there was none. They do business there, they are successful, they don't forget that they are from Malaysia. “They are proud to be Malaysians. This is a new thing – pride in being Malaysians wherever they may be,” he said.

He added that this was the result of Malaysia's success, which in turn stemmed from the ruling coalition's unselfishness in sharing power. “The Barisan Nasional's way is through sharing. We're not greedy, we don't take everything for ourselves. We are willing to give a share to others who are also entitled to it, and they in turn give us what's due to us.

“We share, and share fairly so that everybody can have their portion of the wealth and well-being. This is our way,” he said.
Dr Mahathir also reminded Malaysians to lead a noble life because ability and knowledge alone could not ensure success for the nation. Without a noble culture, he said, the knowledgeable and the capable could abuse their skills.

“We may study until we obtain a doctorate. That's our ability. But if our culture is bad, we will use our prowess to plan a bank robbery, for example. That's why we need not only knowledge but also a good culture that can do us good and bring us success,” he added.

The Prime Minister also said he was puzzled that despite the country's success, there were some Malaysians who still opposed the Government's efforts to foster unity, the cornerstone of this success.

He said the Government's effort to get the non-Malays to study in national schools to promote the spirit of unity was initially misconceived as an attempt to sideline the vernacular schools. The Government's move to set up Vision Schools, which housed the three types of schools under one roof, was also misconceived as an attempt to eradicate the mother tongue of the other communities, he added.

“Only in Malaysia do we have schools where the language is not the national language. In other countries in South-East Asia, it's not allowed. In the United States, there's none. In Australia, there's no Chinese school funded by Australians. “I don't understand the reason for this attitude when our country gives us all a good life,” he said. – Bernama

[uchangeng]

"Malaysia must ensure that it keeps doing things its own way to maintain the progress achieved so far, said Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad." Translate into : 60% Quota for Bumi. in all government contracts because they can not live without it.

Bilakah kita nak boleh hidup senang?

[osama]

Translate into : 60% Quota for Bumi. in all government contracts because they can not live without it. mana awak tahu???