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jacksonlim
10-06-2014, 10:01 AM
First they stop a marriage:
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/06/03/Bride-Im-a-practising-Hindu-Jais-detains-Muslim-woman-during-her-wedding-ceremony/

Then they stop a funeral proceeding:
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/06/10/Dead-womans-funeral-aborted-over-religious-status/

I feel that this kind of dispute should be handled in a more sensitive manner, religious officer should take action BEFORE the actual ceremony, not midway and disruptively.

Naka
10-06-2014, 10:46 AM
...............

........................

Then they stop a funeral proceeding:


I feel that this kind of dispute should be handled in a more sensitive manner, religious officer should take action BEFORE the actual ceremony, not midway and disruptively.

From what I know as they happened many times in the past in Sabah, Muslim converts and their families can not claim they do not know that they have to be buried according to their new religious rituals when they die.

Often times, the religious body will claim for the dead bodies if they happen to know even at the LAST MOMENTand then bury them accordingly.

And often times Muslim Converts' families play hide and seek and they do get away with it very often.

I feel the blame should not be directed elsewhere other than themselves

Chia Hak Soon
10-06-2014, 10:58 AM
The soul and spirit of the deceased have left the body, let them do what they want and at no cost incurred.

tupai
10-06-2014, 12:27 PM
The soul and spirit of the deceased have left the body, let them do what they want and at no cost incurred.

SOKONG! imagine free afterlife service with money (basic Rm8888 to RM7th heaven!) saved for other more useful things to be spent by the living kins...

THE BONUS? ching Ming done in manicured cemetary close to city sumore!

apa lagi lu mahu?

Yang Beragama Practikal TIUxlatotupai:cool:

jacksonlim
10-06-2014, 01:18 PM
I feel the blame should not be directed elsewhere other than themselves

Enforcement is being carried out by them, the law maker should make the process less intrusive.

For example:
The body is at the hospital for postmortem, base on personal experience the family need to apply for death certificate before the body can be claimed by the family. Why not stop them there?

ng
10-06-2014, 01:29 PM
There won't be any more Ching Ming for their family.

tupai
10-06-2014, 01:42 PM
Do these people know of all the implications when they convert to Islam ?

There won't be any more Ching Ming for them.

really? I'd thought muslim ching ming is done on 1st day of their raya lah~ sans jossstik, hades$, mercun only lah.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" ~ shakespeare, a wise man indeed.:heheheh:

Yang BerChingMing in BIG plot ToonIstimewaUtamaXlatotupai:cool:

Naka
10-06-2014, 05:07 PM
Enforcement is being carried out by them, the law maker should make the process less intrusive.

For example:
The body is at the hospital for postmortem, base on personal experience the family need to apply for death certificate before the body can be claimed by the family. Why not stop them there?

First question, did the family inform that Religious Body that a fellow Muslim is dead?

If the answer is "Yes" this problem would not have occur.

If not, you can't blame them coming at the eleventh hour to claim for the body.

Why do they have to follow your time?

jacksonlim
10-06-2014, 05:39 PM
First question, did the family inform that Religious Body that a fellow Muslim is dead?

If the answer is "Yes" this problem would not have occur.

If not, you can't blame them coming at the eleventh hour to claim for the body.

Why do they have to follow your time?

Fundamentally, why the family need to inform to the Religious Body that a fellow Muslim is dead? What if the deceased family genuinely doesn't know that their family has recently converted? Is there a process in place to catch that?

Secondly, how did the Religious Body know that a fellow Muslim is dead? Can this process be faster and less intrusive?

Lastly, it is a common decency to respect the dead, and most importantly to care for the moaning family member, in regardless of religion or race, if common decency is not a factor, then one can do however, whatever, whenever they want as they please.

bslee
10-06-2014, 05:55 PM
As I see it..non muslims see it as some violation. If the deceased was indeed a Muslim, then a Muslim preparation and due burial is right.
The trouble here is the way it was handled and seen as intrusive, insensitive, possibly rude and disruptive. Its the enforcing people to blame here mostly.
I dunno lah..they're getting into the news for the wrong reasons. WHY CAN'T THEY BLARDI DO THINGS RIGHT WITH TACT AND EXTREME CARE?
That's why I could perceive our civil behaviour and mannerism in this era is VERY QUESTIONABLE! CIVILIZED AND HALUS konon!

aursong
10-06-2014, 06:08 PM
SOKONG! imagine free afterlife service with money (basic Rm8888 to RM7th heaven!) saved for other more useful things to be spent by the living kins...

THE BONUS? ching Ming done in manicured cemetary close to city sumore!

apa lagi lu mahu?

Yang Beragama Practikal TIUxlatotupai:cool:

Best perks... you consider converting???

Naka
10-06-2014, 07:46 PM
Fundamentally, why the family need to inform to the Religious Body that a fellow Muslim is dead? What if the deceased family genuinely doesn't know that their family has recently converted? Is there a process in place to catch that?

Secondly, how did the Religious Body know that a fellow Muslim is dead? Can this process be faster and less intrusive?

Lastly, it is a common decency to respect the dead, and most importantly to care for the moaning family member, in regardless of religion or race, if common decency is not a factor, then one can do however, whatever, whenever they want as they please.

You did not answer my questions

ng
10-06-2014, 07:47 PM
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/family-of-chinese-woman-in-race-to-stop-muslim-style-burial

Now her mother is considering legal action to get back her grandchildren.

ng
10-06-2014, 07:49 PM
Best perks... you consider converting???


Do you think he can get his hands off Hokkien Mee and fast for one month every year ? :rolleyes:

read

http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?37188-The-Best-Hokkien-Mee/page2

tupai
10-06-2014, 08:46 PM
35073508350935103511

With sane mind, I is proud to declare this loudly : That I is a firmed believer of Buddhism from the neck up...a staunch beading Christian at heart.. and to cap it all, a highly satisfied Muslim from the waist down.:heheheh:

apa lagi mahu???:confused:

Yang Beragama TIUxlatotupai:cool:

p/s plooof in pix lah...HAHAHAAHAH! Eat ye heart out!:heheheh:

bslee
10-06-2014, 08:58 PM
apa lagi mahu???:confused:


KENOT!!!!!...Your 1Gahmen dun allow religious hybrids! Kereta Hybrid boleh! Your Mykad oso don't allow such declaration. Its a funny thing that YOU MUST CHOOSE to believe in known religion as its entered as MyKAD data.. Freethinker not accepted! Tak suka boleh keluar.. apa lagi mau??? :heheheh:

tupai
10-06-2014, 09:02 PM
KENOT!!!!!...Your 1Gahmen dun allow religious hybrids! Kereta Hybrid boleh! Your Mykad oso don't allow such declaration. Its a funny thing that YOU MUST CHOOSE to believe in known religion as its entered as MyKAD data.. Freethinker not accepted! Tak suka boleh keluar.. apa lagi mau??? :heheheh:

AHHAAHHAH! .. I also believe that Ram & Hannah tried to register their baby's race as Malaysian...also kena rejected!:eek:

I think Baby was listed as Chindian?...or was it Inchin?..I am not too sure But Malaysian definitely kENOT!

So, i will drink to that ! HiC! :p

Yang Bakuteh makan kawkaw TIUxlatotupai:heheheh:

ng
10-06-2014, 09:25 PM
With sane mind, I is proud to declare this loudly : [/COLOR]That I is a firmed believer of Buddhism from the neck up...a staunch beading Christian at heart.. and to cap it all, a highly satisfied Muslim from the waist down[/B].

Once you're caught doing unIslamic acts like eating pork, not going to mosque, drink alcohol etc, you're going to be subjected to Islamic laws penalty and even hudud in the future.

There's no such thing as hybrid religion in Malaysia.

jacksonlim
10-06-2014, 10:12 PM
You did not answer my questions

Answer to your question is another question, why the family need to tell? If they don't know the deceased converted, how?

Naka
11-06-2014, 06:31 AM
Answer to your question is another question, why the family need to tell? If they don't know the deceased converted, how?

Put it this way, if the family do not know it does not mean the R. Body do not know too.

If they conveniently forgot about his conversion, it does not mean the R. Body forgot.

If they play innnocent, you think the R. Body play dumb?

If they play hide & seek as in most cases, they also can't get away with it.

Do you know of a case where a convert body was exhumed years ago in a particular district & reburied according to the religious rituals?

BTW, not all Non Muslims see it as some sort of violations.

jacksonlim
11-06-2014, 09:27 AM
Put it this way, if the family do not know it does not mean the R. Body do not know too.

If they conveniently forgot about his conversion, it does not mean the R. Body forgot.

If they play innnocent, you think the R. Body play dumb?

If they play hide & seek as in most cases, they also can't get away with it.

Do you know of a case where a convert body was exhumed years ago in a particular district & reburied according to the religious rituals?

BTW, not all Non Muslims see it as some sort of violations.

That is exactly my point, if the R. Body knows about it, why didn't they take action faster? As far as I know the postmortem process will normally take a lot of time. Since they are the law enforcer, can they take a more proactive and less intrusive approach to the matter?

I can't generalized what all Non Muslims feel and think, but to take the more proactive and less intrusive approach to me is the most decent thing to do.

Naka
11-06-2014, 10:33 AM
That is exactly my point, if the R. Body knows about it, why didn't they take action faster? As far as I know the postmortem process will normally take a lot of time. Since they are the law enforcer, can they take a more proactive and less intrusive approach to the matter?

I can't generalized what all Non Muslims feel and think, but to take the more proactive and less intrusive approach to me is the most decent thing to do.

I had already answered your point earlier maybe I should have say:-

"It's a matter of time before the R. Body discover a funeral of a convert that is not in accordance to their religious rituals."

I also know of a case when one of the daughters decided to inform a R. Body at the last minute when the body was already in a Buddhist temple. Everything was smoothly done in transferring the corpse.

Do you like the idea of exhumation after a week or so?

aursong
11-06-2014, 11:44 AM
The soul and spirit of the deceased have left the body, let them do what they want and at no cost incurred.

Hope such dont happen to anyone you know...
having it done free dont justify what the family having to go through...

bslee
11-06-2014, 12:43 PM
Its the responsibility of any Muslim convert to inform family (especially those who seem reluctant to accept anything) of all implications, issues, and complexities of Islamic enforcement in this land.
In NO way I'm warning nor implying Islam is bad in any way, but there's regulations and laws that govern and enforce the requirements in matters of life and death. Islamic values are upheld with insistence here. Live with it! I will not discuss custody issues as this is unclear to me. How matters are eventually resolved, tackled and enforced is another story, please don't pick on me about it. I'm not any authority on this neither nor siding anyone, merely my own view.
Converts must do their part to clarify and iron out controversy and complications. Its pure responsibility, strange or not.

aursong
11-06-2014, 01:05 PM
Not picking on anyone... just picking on comment that "Let them do whatever because is Free"...

jacksonlim
11-06-2014, 01:50 PM
I had already answered your point earlier maybe I should have say:-

"It's a matter of time before the R. Body discover a funeral of a convert that is not in accordance to their religious rituals."

I also know of a case when one of the daughters decided to inform a R. Body at the last minute when the body was already in a Buddhist temple. Everything was smoothly done in transferring the corpse.

Do you like the idea of exhumation after a week or so?

Duly noted, all I am saying is the speed of discovery. R. Body need to have better process in place.

Now with MyCard, one scan they should know the religion of the deceased. Why need to wait for daughter to inform R.Body?

Naka
11-06-2014, 05:21 PM
Duly noted, all I am saying is the speed of discovery. R. Body need to have better process in place.

Now with MyCard, one scan they should know the religion of the deceased. Why need to wait for daughter to inform R.Body?


'Speed of discovery', yes, maybe the R. Body get their info from 3rd or 4th party & you can't fault them for that. 1st party should be the deceased family.

That daughter informing the R. Body case is about 5 years old.

Who is going to scan the millions of MyCard for your faith & why?:confused: You think the R. Body have your MyCard details? :eek: Anyway, this is another matter.

Who know who kick the bucket if you do not inform them? :rolleyes:

aursong
11-06-2014, 08:29 PM
'Speed of discovery', yes, maybe the R. Body get their info from 3rd or 4th party & you can't fault them for that. 1st party should be the deceased family.

That daughter informing the R. Body case is about 5 years old.

Who is going to scan the millions of MyCard for your faith & why?:confused: You think the R. Body have your MyCard details? :eek: Anyway, this is another matter.

Who know who kick the bucket if you do not inform them? :rolleyes:

Hospital or the Funeral service peep (if died of natural cause) would help register and get a death cert
When registering for the death cert, you need the myCard and prove from either a Doctor (any clinic) or some case any police will actually do (close one eye)
I would think during registration is where all the online stuffs take place and R.Body got notify...

If you do the funeral yourself then you "can" don't need to inform lah... but funeral service peep need to have the death cert to conduct the funeral... usually...

jacksonlim
12-06-2014, 08:50 AM
Who is going to scan the millions of MyCard for your faith & why?:confused: You think the R. Body have your MyCard details? :eek: Anyway, this is another matter.

Who know who kick the bucket if you do not inform them? :rolleyes:

Who is going to scan the millions of MyCard for your faith & why?
They want to enforce the law, they need to find a way to do that, no?

You think the R. Body have your MyCard details?
They don't need to have the detail, scan the MyCard, auto raise the flag in the computer system in R. Body.

Who know who kick the bucket if you do not inform them?
Hospital will know, because they need to identify cause of death, that is the process.
Police will know, because you need to get the death certificate, that is the process.

Naka
12-06-2014, 09:06 AM
QUOTE=jacksonlim;582047]Who is going to scan the millions of MyCard for your faith & why?
They want to enforce the law, they need to find a way to do that, no?

Are they that efficient? Maybe in another 10 years

You think the R. Body have your MyCard details?
They don't need to have the detail, scan the MyCard, auto raise the flag in the computer system in R. Body.

So you are talking involving a 3rd party? Again how efficent??

Who know who kick the bucket if you do not inform them?
Hospital will know, because they need to identify cause of death, that is the process.
Police will know, because you need to get the death certificate, that is the process.[/QUOTE

So now Hospital & Police are also involved

So how many party is involve now 5 or 6?

Why are you introducing MORE BUREAUCRACY (when 1 can send you crazy) to a simple solution??

Naka
12-06-2014, 09:17 AM
QUOTE=aursong;582041]Hospital or the Funeral service peep (if died of natural cause) would help register and get a death cert
When registering for the death cert, you need the myCard and prove from either a Doctor (any clinic) or some case any police will actually do (close one eye)
I would think during registration is where all the online stuffs take place and R.Body got notify...

I do not think both these Departments are link on-line

If you do the funeral yourself then you "can" don't need to inform lah... but funeral service peep need to have the death cert to conduct the funeral... usually...[/QUOTE


Let me tell you another case ie >20 years ago.

A convert died & there is this 'DIY' complete services in a district.

They cremated the body on the same day & spread the ashes into a big river.

Then they reported a death few days later.

jacksonlim
12-06-2014, 10:31 AM
Why are you introducing MORE BUREAUCRACY (when 1 can send you crazy) to a simple solution?

Because simple solution doesn't always works. If it does, we won't be having this conversation. By trusting the end user to abide to the Law without proper processes in place, one will introduce inconsistency and discrepancy in the enforcement of it.

Chia Hak Soon
12-06-2014, 10:36 AM
It would be a good idea to convert to Islam when you know that death is near and you and next of kin are poor. Today's funeral expenses are so expensive and you also save your friends from giving "pak kam". No hustle and everything done in one day.

aursong
12-06-2014, 11:51 AM
Let me tell you another case ie >20 years ago.

20 years ago...

ng
12-06-2014, 01:13 PM
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/06/12/Mum-court-order-return-of-body/

Does the mother have any say on this ? After all, she is her daughter.

aursong
12-06-2014, 04:52 PM
It will be returned...

Naka
12-06-2014, 05:26 PM
20 years ago...

Is there a problem?

ng
12-06-2014, 09:05 PM
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/penang-shariah-court-says-teoh-not-a-muslim

She is now declared a Buddhist. So much confusion and drama

Naka
13-06-2014, 02:56 PM
KENOT!!!!!...Your 1Gahmen dun allow religious hybrids! Kereta Hybrid boleh! Your Mykad oso don't allow such declaration. Its a funny thing that YOU MUST CHOOSE to believe in known religion as its entered as MyKAD data.. Freethinker not accepted! Tak suka boleh keluar.. apa lagi mau??? :heheheh:

Please clarify if RELIGION is listed in the DATA CHIP of the brand new MyCard. TQ.

Ref

http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?37325-New-High-Tech-MyCard

Naka
13-06-2014, 03:08 PM
Duly noted, all I am saying is the speed of discovery. R. Body need to have better process in place.

Now with MyCard, one scan they should know the religion of the deceased. Why need to wait for daughter to inform R.Body?

Can you advise if the brand new MyCard that is being issued now have listed RELIGION of that person.

Where can you scan to see all this??

Do you have a photo of the DATA CHIP?

REF:-

http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?37325-New-High-Tech-MyCard

jacksonlim
13-06-2014, 03:42 PM
Can you advise if the brand new MyCard that is being issued now have listed RELIGION of that person.

Where can you scan to see all this??

Do you have a photo of the DATA CHIP?

REF:-

http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?37325-New-High-Tech-MyCard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyKad


For Muslim citizens, "Islam" is printed on the card below the picture of the holder. This is to help the enforcement of Shariah law which is applicable only to Muslims.

Naka
13-06-2014, 04:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mykad

This is only available in the NEW MYCARD but NOT in the old Mycard even if you are a convert after confirmation with my friends.

Thanks

jacksonlim
13-06-2014, 04:57 PM
tqvm.............

Most welcomed.

kwchang
13-06-2014, 05:33 PM
This is only available in the NEW MYCARD but NOT in the old Mycard even if you are a convert after confirmation with my friends...
Naka, I guess you have not been to the registration department.
As far as I can remember, the "old" MyKad already stores your religion in its electronic chip. However, it does not mean that data will automatically change once you change your religion tomorrow...You need to go to the registration department to request the change to be made. I have done that for my kid when he became a Christian...the registration department does not ask you for any evidence, just your consent (if your kid is below 18).

But of course, if your data in the chip says Muslim, I am sure it will be a major issue if the card-holder request it to be changed to a non-muslim religion

Anyone who goes to the registration dept can go to a card-reader and check what is the content recorded

Naka
13-06-2014, 05:52 PM
Naka, I guess you have not been to the registration department.
As far as I can remember, the "old" MyKad already stores your religion in its electronic chip. However, it does not mean that data will automatically change once you change your religion tomorrow...You need to go to the registration department to request the change to be made. I have done that for my kid when he became a Christian...the registration department does not ask you for any evidence, just your consent (if your kid is below 18).

But of course, if your data in the chip says Muslim, I am sure it will be a major issue if the card-holder request it to be changed to a non-muslim religion

Anyone who goes to the registration dept can go to a card-reader and check what is the content recorded

Your explanation is the best.

When I had my New MyCard done 2 wks ago, this thread was not here or else I would have scan my brand new 2 photos mycard for my data

But now I am clearly in the picture after spoken to a friend in Sabah

Thanks

tupai
13-06-2014, 07:59 PM
They have no respect for some of us who are Atheist, Naturalist, Agnostic, Nontheis, Cognivitist, Noncognivitist, MightyNibokanizeist, Lamaist, Unaffiliatist and closer to home, more uncommon is Taoist (you ever seen one before?):confused:...

Yang Berbilang agama ToonIstimewaUtamaXlatotupai:cool:

bslee
13-06-2014, 10:10 PM
In short, they will never recognize any of those mentioned...period! No Islamic country will do so..As said, any other belief is branded as infidel.. its been like that since ages and currently still adhered to. Thats a fact..live with it.

ng
14-06-2014, 03:36 PM
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/penang-offers-legal-assistance-in-tussle-for-body-of-chinese-woman

According to some articles, the first child is born to a chinese man, so the first child is buddhist.

But the other 3 children are born to a malay man, so shouldn't the other children be muslims too ?

How can she give birth when she's not legally married to the malay man ? can anybody clarify ?

Naka
14-06-2014, 03:48 PM
Refer to the Court & let the Judge decide loh

bslee
14-06-2014, 03:54 PM
Children are nearly always caught in the middle of controversy because either parent think they're right on insistence. Still lucky there's the court to rely on. But at the end of the day, one party is the looser, and that someone is going to be very disappointed and blame miscarriage or flawed justice. Damn lucky this is Malaysia, if it were some other Islamic country..YOU HAD IT! no tok kok, no tok 1 tok 2. The world is full of unfairness...live with it and adapt if you can. You can't have your way all the time, eventhough everyone wants it. You want, everyone oso want! :mua-haha:

tupai
14-06-2014, 04:42 PM
seriously why tussle over something that the recipient/'beneficiary' cannot come back to report??:confused:

What is so wrong to have free burial services, preferential discount in housing buy, special guaranteed high ROI unit trusts, all sorta non-returnable grants, silver-plattered half-baked-bizz/AP opportunities, almost zero meritocracy, where corruption under table money can be conveniently switched to perfect 'upah', 4 legit wives (for the men) and best of em all: just by saying the magic sentence 3X, 1 can chuck the complaining naggy and OLD one out, and get a fresh young wife at a snap of fingers.:p

In my next life, gimme half of those benefits above (latter is compulsory) and watch me build on & SOAR like a Space Eagle!:heheheh:

Apa lagi mahu?:confused:

Yang Beragama TIUxlatotupai:cool:

ng
14-06-2014, 08:35 PM
In my next life, gimme half of those benefits above (latter is compulsory) and watch me build on & SOAR like a Space Eagle!:heheheh:

Yang Beragama TIUxlatotupai:cool:

You believe in a religion for spiritual growth and not to have materialistic gains which is short lived.

Sentinel
16-06-2014, 02:06 AM
You believe in a religion for spiritual growth and not to have materialistic gains which is short lived.

But if you profess the wrong religion, you don't get Blue MyKAD... how?

Naka
16-06-2014, 08:10 AM
Wah:eek::eek: Blue MyCard??:confused:

Henry T
16-06-2014, 11:02 AM
-- deleted --

Wrong thread. :)

Heritage
16-06-2014, 11:11 AM
.. The world is full of unfairness...live with it and adapt if you can. You can't have your way all the time, eventhough everyone wants it. You want, everyone oso want! :mua-haha:

Don't know why you laugh out load !!

The world can only be better when there are people who want to make it better.

Apartheid will still be practiced in South Africa if without those who fought hard to stop the discrimination. Negro will still struggle at the lowest strata of society if without those who fought to demolish this unjust racial policiy in US.

Chia Hak Soon
16-06-2014, 11:48 AM
Thanks to Jais for highlighting the Alkitab (bible in malay ) ,for without their action I did not know it exist. Now you can download the Indonesian version. Just google it and you have multiple versions . God works in a mysterious way ,indeed.

aursong
16-06-2014, 05:53 PM
Given a choice... they would ban "A" word from Internet...