Punishment

[ahtal68]

How would you punish a lower primary pupil for not having his exercise book for a certain subject?
Would you, 1) tell the pupil to copy the exercises down in a piece
of blank paper?
2) ask the pupil to standup or stand outside of the class during
the subject period?
OR
in my child's case, tell the pupil "go to hell" throw his bag on the floor of the class and drag the poor kid to another class by the child's shirt collar and humiliate him in front of another class of his peers.
All this from a teacher who teaches "Moral" and to a student who scores A in the subject.
I am boiling in frustration/anger/dissapointment on this matter, that I could not go to sleep, thinking that, for the time this teacher took to do all this, she could easily asked for a reason why there was no book (prank by fellow classmate, who returned his book after recess) instead putting the pupil through such humiliation that my child is asking me, if I could school him at home.

I am going to school tomm to demand an explanation on terms/degrees/types of punishment meted out to 2nd year primary students. If there are any legal eagles out there, I need to know if I have the right to confront the said party personally or go thru the head of school (which I know will come to nothing)?

[empress_julz]

usually, teachers don't play any "punishment" roles these days. they do tell the kids off, but when things get out of hand, they inform the parents and allow them to deal with the child appropriately.

but i'm so sorry to hear this happened to your child... if i were the parent i would be furious!!!

you should look at contacting a newspaper about this. i think this is really bad ethics, and if teachers in malaysia are acting this way it should come out so we can assess what the education ministry is doing, what kind of training and assessment teachers get, etc. etc. etc.

///ej

[jericho]

ahtal68,

sorry to hear what happened to your child.

lodge a complain with the state education department. and they will carry out an investigation on it.

good luck

[CASSA318]

The Consumers Association of Subang and Shah Alam, Selangor (CASSA) deeply regrets to hear of this matter.

Since we have dealt with similar issues before in a fair and equitable manner, we herewith advise ahtal68 to please contact CASSA President & Legal Adviser Dr. Jacob George for some pertinent input and advice.

He can be contacted on mobile phone - 012-3664444


J.Govind
Legal Officer (Hon)
CASSA SECRETARIAT

[ahtal68]

EJ/Jericho, thanks for the sympathy. EJ the teachers of those days are indeed becoming extinct. The love for teaching by positive reinforcement is rapidly diminishing I went to school today to see this teacher with a heavy heart since my boy was almost in tears begging me not to.
This is exactly what happened. It seems the teacher had asked the pupils to take out their exercise books, one child who did not bring his book. got up to tell her so, she in turn said (so she says)
"ok, siapa tidak bawa buku keluar dari kelas saya, saya tak mahu ajar kamu"
Children being themselves, some stood up and started walking out and this teacher was so frustrated, she jumped on my boy who was nearest to her.
She told me she did not do the things as my son claims, but I being a mother, went early and talked some of his classmates who concur with what happened and then some.
I confronted her saying that is not true and would you please explain the logic in acting as she did and what lesson did she think my son has learned from this experience. To this I got not only an unsatisfactory reply but also a somewhat forced apology.
I then left her with a question "would you stand for it if this happened to your child" (BTW, she is a 'Cik").
I plan to take this to the PIBG, not to focus on my case but generally to make the teachers understand and a punishment that consists of humiliation/degradation does not bring positive results.
As for my son, he will always think twice before approaching her for anything and remeber this incident whenever he sees this teacher, which , I think is the heaviest punishment a child could have.
I am still very upset over this and forever mar my respect for of the teaching profession.:mad:

[xweird]

I'm sorry to hear what happened... during my schooling days, there were a fair share of terrible teachers who seem to take punishment out of hand. But not to this extent of humiliation and degradation. I believe a physical punishment (such as a simple rotan cane) on the hand will suffice (just as a symbolic gesture).. but to shame and show tantrum in front of another class (can you imagine that!!) is really out of hand.

If these teachers have kids of their own, they will think twice before embarking on such ambitious disciplinary action...

[kwchang]

This is outrageous. I have school going kids myself and if that incident had happened to my kids, I will demand nothing less than a transfer of that teacher. Children are highly impressionable and the role of the teacher is to promote a eagerness to pursue knowledge with the idea that school is fun.

[fonzie]

Don't get mad, get even....! ;)-

On a more serious note...
I am inclined to summise that the teacher has some emotional problems....a case of low self-esteem...

I think the teacher has lost a momentary control seeing his/her "star pupil" now not following rules/convention. In short, teacher just pop a fuse somewhere....

Over to some more qualified views out there....!

Cheers!
FonZie

[joker2107]

i'm with kwchang. get the teacher transferred out. this is not only to "punish the offender". the fact that the teacher is gone will go a long way in helping the victim overcome the trauma.

i wud believe that the principal has already been informed. then be prepared for some ding-donging formalities such as reports to the jabatan and investigations etc.

what's missing in our edu system today, no not the pri n sec sch, but the edu in teachers' training is child psyhcology and the evolution of minds. kids today are of a totally new breed. my own 8 yr old is proving a great challenge, not just her but the similar thinking of her peers with whom i am close. and they are just a decade behind my nephews and nieces who see things in yet another different light. honestly, keeping pace with them is making me much more than a jeckyll and hyde - i need a different personalitiy to intergrate with each different age group even it is well within my own extended family.

if ever there is a course on understanding and reaching out to kids, i'd nominate xweird. for all your empathy, i'm surprised that u can still propose the rod for not having a book (perhaps the first offence at that!).

with regards bringing the matter up to the pibg, fine, but i think one must also define what one expects from such a reference. is it just a formal complaint to be registered? is it to get the sch to take action? then the next big q is to understand the confines within which a pibg is bound. there is such a thing as constitution in a pibg. and the clauses are very much dictated by the jabatan, regulating what a pibg can and cannot do. that means yr expectations may not be within the ambit of the pibg's role.

for me, i made sure that i get into the pibg board. as a team we provide motivation courses for the teachers. if there are short courses on child psychology or the likes, pls let me know - i will definitely get the teachers in my kid's sch to attend. thats the best i can do to preclude unpleasant actions by teachers who cannot "behave like a kid".

[xweird]

joker2107:

if ever there is a course on understanding and reaching out to kids, i'd nominate xweird. for all your empathy, i'm surprised that u can still propose the rod for not having a book (perhaps the first offence at that!).

perhaps it's the way i wrote it, or perhaps it's some misinterpretation,,,. i was merely sharing my school-going experience.. i've been caned/punched lots of times by my class teacher for simple wrongs: not bringing book, coming late, not finishing homework.....

pardon the slip-up :P

[thelaw48]

Ahtal68, I am with you. Don't hesitate to do what you have to do. We are living in a pespectable society, this teacher is a 'mis-fit' to our soecity & should be barred from teaching.

Very often you find moral teachers having similar behaviuor. The only reason that I can think of is that these category of teachers are the 'mis-fits' kind that can't teach anything else & are sidelined to take charge of the "seems to be less important subjects like MORAL". By doing this our children future has to suffer.

The schools do not reliaze that MORAL subjects are the most important & cannot be dropped for any alternative subjects like we do in any other subjects. Moreover, moral can only be tough by good leadership examples, otherwise why waste time; we can teach our own kids with our little knowlege that we ve learned from our school days. At least they are not spoit becoz of somebody's fault.

The school has to be made responsible for keeping such teachers.

[CH]

I would like to share my personal experience.

During my primary school years, around standard 4 or 5, it was a English spelling issue and some of us get the answer wrong, below the passing marks, includes yours truly.

We were asked to crawl out from the classroom, not walk out, and do the corrections outside the walkway next to the basketball court, under the hot sun (that was around 11:30 am).

I will never forget this incident because I felt so bad. The teacher is lucky, because at that time, our parents thinks that punishment from the teacher is good for us ...:(

Yet another incident, a temp English teacher was crying and run back to teachers room, because I refused to crawl out of her class and the reason is that I questions the mark she gave me for the exam - she failed me and another classmate pass because she TAUGHT him during the exam ...

The result is obvious. My command of English has never improved since until now.

Please, punishment will only damage ones life, NOT helping.

[joker2107]

no offence meant, xweird. i actually doubted yr intentions to use the cane.

there's no way one can compare the yesteryears with today. in those days, discipline was a job for the school and teachers. parents just sit back and reap the rewards of the teachers' bad names. case of lembu punya susu sapi punya nama.

the experiences quoted here r nothing compared with the humiliation i've gone thru.

i come fr a financially deprived background. when i did not pay my sch fees, i was ordered to stand outside the class while my classmates, none of whom in their innocence understood poverty mocked me to depression and isolation. in my first year i cut the pieces of paper for art too large for the teacher's liking. the bitch peeled it off the art block and glued it on my face and paraded me in class b4 appointing me door sentry for the next hour or two. the hm on his regular rounds saw me in the disgusting mask and added some decorations to my bottom there and then. double punishment for an offence a 6+ yr old mind could not comprehend. my hokkien friend once told me how to say penis in his dialect. i related it to an indian friend. he in turn told the teacher. it ended with six of the best for me - the others got off scot free. i was only 9 yrs old then. as a 12 yr old, i had a crazy pe teacher who succeeded to get an obese male student with enlarged breasts stop schooling out of humiliation. i got his two palms connecting my ears in a vice like grip in one furious blow for unknown reasons. i thought he was intent on mincing my brains in recording breaking speed. at 14 i had a teacher slap me real good right across the face until my specs flew, i mean really flew, away, in front of the whole class - for not knowing how to make a public presentation - the topic was "cigarettes". i was hardly a quarter in the school which traditionally had public speaking, without training, in its curriculum. and by default of my birth name being alphabetically superior, i had the misfortune of being given the pleasure to spoil the day for the whole class and end the session prematurely. the only humiliation i missed out on is probably public caning.

in my sub conscience the horrors inflicted on me did retard my progress but i'm lucky to hv pulled thru even if i hv to be a late starter. but my days were the 60s and early 70s. and we had no recourse then.

my stories may sound very like story book stuff. i swear they are true to the dot, every bit of description. and thats why i bent on not allowing history to repeat itself. at least not where my family is concerned. and despite my less than satisfactory financial standing now i still try very hard to provide financial aid to the needy. and be very much involved in the school where my kids go to. no human being deserves to get what i got.

[empress_julz]

i am against using the cane. i don't think i could even use it on my kids. in europe no one uses canes on kids, and most are quite well brought up, (well ignore the big cities like london) and don't have problems with manners.

in school there was no caning. i had an excellent education, my high school especially was fabulous. we really loved our teachers and what they thought us. and we listened because they motivated us to get educated - they didn't beat the smarts out of us.

get her transferred. go to the malay mail in fact, and see what you can do. kick up a ruckus ahtal, your son and other kids deserve better than this crap excuse of a "teacher".

///ej

[Joecool]

I remember in my school days students were demeaned into behaving. They were made either to stand on the chair or worse hold the chair above their head. Once my entire class was punished for being late in shuffling back to the classroom after the assembly. The entire class was asked to stand in the hot sun carrying a chair above their head. Quite funny actually. Instead of feeling the punishment, we were happy we did not have to attend of all things the "Civic" class. After that we were permitted back in the class for the next lesson and we could not concentrate because we were all sweaty. Were we bad boys? Maybe but most of us turned out to be surgeons, doctors, engineers, general managers and one famous one worked for a small electronics company in the US after graduation which later is now called CISCO.

[kwchang]

I believe that kids are not really 'bad' in their natural state, especially primary school kids. They are just hyperactive. Generally, those that make a lot of noise in school are not 'empty vessals' - thay have such high levels of curiousity and stuff to share, that's why they become uncontrollable.

We were in the 'A' class in Std 6 and once our class teacher asked us, out of frustration, why we can't be quiet like those in the 'D' class. A few smart alecs answered almost unanimously that it is because those in the 'D' class had nothing to talk about (meaning, that they were so blurr about everything that they preferred to keep quiet).

The solution to hyperactive kids is to keep their inquisitive minds busy with educational pursuits. In a class of 40+, and a curriculum deadline to meet, I do salute the teachers for their patience and tolerance. Unfortunately for our kids, our educational system may not be able to keep up with them, thus disciplinary problems may be perceived by bystanders like us now discussing the 'problem' in this thread.

[chookyan]

It would be good to let us know the name of the school concerned- be transparent - we support you all the way!

[eleez]

Ahtal 68,

sorry to hear about the horrible incident..

Going through childhood memory lane.. I was 8 years old then when the same thing happened to me.. it was my Math teacher.. it was all because I answered 6x6=12... I got the most painful 'pinch + twist' on my stomach because of that.. and I cried in front of the whole class.. it doesn't stop there.. I felt further humiliated when the teacher teased me in front of everybody saying I was crying like a baby and somebody to give me a 'botol susu'.. I can't stop sobbing till school ends.. but I dare not tell my parents about it.

But know what? because of that incident, I was more alert and I tried my best to answer questions correctly... (though I was scared to death with the teacher) and at the final exam I did Superb..

Well.. the morale of the story is.. sometimes bad experience teach us to be a better person..

Good luck..

[empress_julz]

either way, i think spurring kids to think better via humiliation and cruelty is not going to get them to love learning - it's only going to get them to fear punishment. they will never grow to enjoy what they study or what they do.

///Ej

[ahtal68]

Thank you all for your concerns and suggestions and mostly for sharing bad experiences. I have been contact with parties involved and one PIBG member assures me investigations are on going.

[empress_julz]

a few years ago my cousin had a bad experience like that in sultan abdul samad high school, pj. got the teacher transferred out. it seems he was also a bit "funny in the head", how exactly i'm not so sure.

but i'm confident you can get it done. make sure this goes on the woman's record as an example for the rest of the school.

///ej

[ganfami]

I believe the school in question is the Chinese school in SJ. This type of punishment is nothing new in that particular school. A quick check with the parents waiting for their kids outside the school in the afternoon will tell you that most of their children have similar bad incidents with over zealous teachers. Students are punished and caned for very small mistakes and some teachers have the tendency to punish the prefects or class monitors for a small mischievous act from their classmate. Several parents have brought it up with the teachers and even the head mistress but always end up their kids being victimised by the teachers. I know one student was totally ignored by his teacher in class after his mother went to complaint after the unfair punishment. I have questioned the school once whether the teachers have the right to cane students, but I did not get a satisfactory answer from the school.

[Joecool]

Are you referring to Lick Hung? I was in the school on day to pre-register my daughter. I saw a particular teacher waving a large cane around in class. He is teaching Bahasa Malaysia. But one thing for certain - everyone in class was paying careful attention.

[tupai]

Ahtal68: i sympathised with u. Now that u hv opened the can, u hv to keep looking into it. U must make sure that the investigations by the school do not take months or years! Get a time line or else take your next course of action.

this is to prevent yr kiddo from being penalised when things hv gotten quiet down (typical malaysian lah...short memory). don't 4get that yr kiddo will be there for a few more years...

NOW, i support chookyan 100%. NAME the school! don't pussy foot around this matter...the investigations might take forever and public/parents pressure must be maintained.
With such teacher-bully misbehaviour exposed, u can prevent other kids from going thru the same abuse.

if u r afraid to name ther school, then u only become part of the problem. think about it.

tupai.

[yablato]

yakitiyak,yakitiyak...so now what?:mad:

Name the school...else shut up and don't complain anymore.

1 up to bully-teacher
1 down to NATO parents!:mad:

NAME the school

Yang Akan Berusaha Lato

[ahtal68]

As I have said earlier, inquiry into this matter is on going.

I shall not name the school since I believe the NAME of SCHOOL is not the issue but the THE PUNISHMENT METED OUT BY THE TEACHER is.

To all who have sympathized or otherwise, thank you, will keep you posted.

[empress_julz]

totally agree with you ahtal, naming the school and defaming them is the wrong way to go about it, though if you did wnt to let us know, you're welcomed - but that is your choice and no one should have the prerogative or audascity to push you to compliance.

i hope above all, your son has not suffered too much psychologically from this incident. children will be children, they will slip up once in a while- but even so, push them positively, not beat them to agreement!

//Ej

[kwchang]

Just to balance a equation a bit...

In all such matters involving kids, we as parents should resort to thorough investigations. Kids tend to distort the story when they tell it.

I was in Std.1 when I fell from my becha (trishaw) that took me to school. The reason I fell was I jumped up to get off before the becha was ready to stop. It was entirely my fault. However, when my father questioned me later that evening, I blamed it on the trishaw man and accused him of being negligent, causing me to fall. I was only 7 then and was afraid of being reprimanded by my father for being careless, hence I blamed the poor trishaw man. The next day my father confronted the trishaw man ... Well, I got punished for telling a lie.

Hence we see an incident of apparent teacher agression. Was it true? Was the kid naughty, being punished and later blew the story out of proportion so as to save his own skin?

To be fair, in a court of law, no one is guilty until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[empress_julz]

yes, that is true.... kids can be real naughty, and real liars too.

i used to tutor this brat of a 7 year old who had no discipline whatsoever. when he did not do his homework, he blamed the maid and said she misplaced his book! i sent him to his room to look for it again, and the maid came to me and said "buku dia dalam beg" which i found sure enough. but when he sat back down, with the bag on the table, and i asked him to check the bag, the book was "not there"! this went on several times till i got fed up and pulled the book out.

needless to say i told the parents, and i think he got punished for it.

but i think that in certain cases like this one, the kid is not lying. even if the kid was naughty, to be subjected to such treatment is appalling! i will never allow my children to study and learn out of fear... they will not love nor crave knowledge.

///Ej

[sinleong]

how times have changed.

nobody used to question the teachers. Teaching was then a very superior profession. Teachers used to get all the respect they deserve.

today, few want to be teachers. result is, we get a whole bunch of people who look like they are being forced to do something they don't like.

at the same time, it doesn't help when we have these new age parents who pamper their children so much. i agree that harsh punishments are too much for a child to bear. sometimes, some degree of punishment is required to shape a child. if parents have so much tendency to march up to the school every time their children come crying home, it will erode the authority of the teachers. this will have a much more negative effect on the children.

i like to use the examples of britain, merely because i was educated there. government schools (or "comprehensive schools" as they are called) have long banned corporal punishments. many of them have a huge problem to maintain discipline. the private schools who still maintain their autonomy have a much better record in terms of discipline mainly because they have a very strict (although traditional) regime.

[empress_julz]

sinleong, funny you should mention british schools. i was in london last week and was reading the newspapers on education. there is a big hoopla there concerning the situation at this point and the government's moves have been questioned.

historically, britain has never been a country where there has been good discipline throughout with all their youth. there have always been the hooligans, the "yobs" as the english themselves put it, since time in memoriam. most of these people did not receive and education, but when it became compulsory after the industrial revolution the schools saw an influx of very badly brought up, brusque individuals who did not care for an education let alone increasing their intelligence. generation after generation, the ill traits passed on. england unfortunately has not had the privilege of a large middle class, they've been predominantly feudal and rife with class distinction throughout.

plus, it was made worse because in the past few years the government has been making it policy to mix both good and bad students in government schools. in the past only the best qualified, these days it's a bit different - they have to have that mix of evil and good. so it will inevitably seem like the standards are slacking.

i hated my primary school life. they were always strict, caned the students, and acted like real arses. i have been caned once, it was humiliating. that made me hate school and learning. it really affected my self esteem terribly.

when i arrived in secondary school however, things changed. i was taught to love my work, love my studies, and crave knowledge. we were encouraged not only to pick up our text books and read, but to gain an understanding in other things in life. we were active in sports and co-curricular activities, and the teacher's were no less than 100% supportive.

you don't need to be a straight-A student to be a good student. i praise and thank my teachers for teaching me the importance in being a good and useful individual in society. and they did not ever walk around waving a cane to induce fear or a sense of compliance. those people are still my friends till today, and i will not hesitate to call them and meet up for a drink or two when i'm in town.

which is why when i do choose a school for my children one day, i hope they will be privileged enough to study in an institution where they teach them to appreciate knowledge. only then will their quest be never-ending, and not stop the moment they finish their SPM.

but you're right sinleong, such wonderful teachers are a dying breed. i think a lot has to do with the fact that society is becoming more materialistic, the women less maternal, there is just no economic sense in teaching anymore.

///Ej

[sinleong]

the government schools in britain, which are called "comprehensive schools" have banned corporal punishments a long time ago.

on the other hand, private schools still carry out corporal punishments and have a very strict regime. they have a very good record against truancy, bad discipline etc. you may have been confused with the term, "public schools" when reading the newspaper article. For some reason, private schools in britain are called "public schools".

there's another type of government school in britain called grammar schools. they are partly or wholly funded by the government and they maintain some level of autonomy and they are selective.

the yobs and all those other social problems you mentioned represent a very small minority of british youths.

depending on which newpaper you read in britain, you will get a different view. the telegraph, times and daily mail are pro-tories while the guardian and sun are pro-labour. the labour party in government and the conservatives in opposition have different approaches to education. labour opposes the grammar school and the assisted places scheme that allows poorer students to attend private schools. there was a big hooh hah some years back, when it was revealed the hipocracy of prime minister blair who chose to send his eldest son to a grammar school.

[empress_julz]

sinleong, i don't know where you got your facts from but corporal punishment has been banned throughout the UK in schools for donkey years - refer to the Children Act 1988 if you will, which states that only the parent has the authority to enforce reasonable corporal punishment on the child. it is illegal for schools (or anyone other than the parent) to punish students in that manner.

the newspaper article i read (i can't remember which one) was basically about the government revamping the exams for primary school students, setting them at school and not national level. this has brought criticism from tory, labour as well as liberal-democrat quarters of government.

i certainly did not confuse "public schools" from "private schools".... what made you think that?

private schools in the UK are even worse than public schools - i don't know what made you say that they're better. four private schools have been burnt down in the UK by students in the past 3 years alone. most parents, both abroad and in the UK pay good money to get their kids into public schools because of their academic performance as well as discipline.

my historical analysis of the education system in the UK was based on my understanding from the legal perspective of the powers of the local and education authorities pertaining child's education and welfare, which requires a strict analysis of history, problems, solutions as well as methods of enforcement pertaining children and education systems. for a good analogy, refer to bromley on family law.

///Ej