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Henry T
16-07-2012, 10:13 AM
and cannot pay its debts, what can it do? :D

Other than austerity measures and raising taxes. :eek:

besitai2007
16-07-2012, 11:31 AM
Borrow money from IMF...

cml
16-07-2012, 11:33 AM
Pray harder?

cml
16-07-2012, 11:34 AM
Actually come to think of it no need. We are the chosen ones. We will not run out of money.

currymee
16-07-2012, 11:42 AM
Sell Southern Johor to Singapore (district by district) :D

jan tomaswaki
16-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Print more and more and more money......like Zimbabwe style....

ng
16-07-2012, 11:57 AM
Print more and more and more money......like Zimbabwe style....

And USA.

Then rm 1 = rm 10000 worth

Henry T
16-07-2012, 12:06 PM
Print more and more and more money......like Zimbabwe style....

I wanted to say that. All countries are printing fiat money. But its no use. Everything will just cost more, maybe RM10 for a loaf of bread. :laugh:

I read that Italy is mulling selling State assets.

besitai2007
16-07-2012, 12:17 PM
Print more and more and more money......like Zimbabwe style....

Just like the Japanese did during occupation of Malaya in WW2. After they kalah, money became worthless. Used to hear my mother lament, "Banana money. Not good for anything except for burning." Same fate awaits PR if they take over?

kuma
16-07-2012, 12:26 PM
Print more and more and more money.....


Like Today! ;)

http://smile-lover.com/start/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/note-baru_thumb.png

Kinda colourful, ain't it? :)....

New Banknotes Series Issued Into Circulation from 16 July 2012.....Link (http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=en_press&pg=en_press_all&ac=2577&lang=en)

Kinabalu
16-07-2012, 12:36 PM
I once show our Ringgit Malaysia to my US friend, they all laugh at the currency as it resemble the money from the monopoly.

kwchang
16-07-2012, 12:38 PM
As for printing money without the gold backing, I remember the Argentinian currency was at one time worth less than the paper it was printed on. If you check on the Argentinian peso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_exchange_rates_of_Argentine_currency) you will find that it was 98,500 pesos to US$1 (almost 100,000 !) in May 1983 and they removed the zeros the following month. In that wiki site, it says that the current Argentinian peso was worth 10 milion million pesos in 1969 (13 zeros!)... if I am not mistaken, 13 zeros = trillion. So it looks like the Argentinian peso devalued a trillion times !!

Anyone has info on other currencies that dropped so dramatically?

cml
16-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Its what happens when asses run the country. They get cleaned out and the country is left begging the imf for hand outs.

kwchang
16-07-2012, 01:05 PM
I once show our Ringgit Malaysia to my US friend, they all laugh at the currency as it resemble the money from the monopoly. To the Americans (USA), all the currencies of the world are like cartoon to them... the USD had always been colourless and unchanged. I have difficulties recognising the 1,5 and 10 USD notes - need to look at the value numerals - so much better with our blue, green and red notes.

cml
16-07-2012, 01:10 PM
When I went there many many moons ago, I was warned to be very careful about the denominations, otherwise we would end up giving them many many bucks as tips especially if you think you are giving a few dollars, you end up giving hundreds. Better to keep the bigger notes away from the small ones.

cml
16-07-2012, 01:11 PM
If we go places like vietnam or cambodia its not so bad, we give 50k its not so much. But if we give a hundred us its a lot of money for a tip.

Henry T
16-07-2012, 01:34 PM
Like Today! ;)

http://smile-lover.com/start/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/note-baru_thumb.png

Kinda colourful, ain't it? :)....

New Banknotes Series Issued Into Circulation from 16 July 2012.....Link (http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=en_press&pg=en_press_all&ac=2577&lang=en)


This is how the Gomen increase the money supply at the same time. Just keep the machines run for a few more days. :D

currymee
16-07-2012, 01:46 PM
Like Today! ;)

http://smile-lover.com/start/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/note-baru_thumb.png

Kinda colourful, ain't it? :)....

New Banknotes Series Issued Into Circulation from 16 July 2012.....Link (http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=en_press&pg=en_press_all&ac=2577&lang=en)

Very pretty leh :D .... now if only I can get my hands on a FEW MILLIONS of them ... JACKPOT where are you ? I am still waiting leh .... :D

kwchang
16-07-2012, 01:56 PM
This is how the Gomen increase the money supply at the same time. Just keep the machines run for a few more days... I think it is not so simple as printing. I believe currency must be backed by physical gold reserves or foreign currency reserves. So can anyone enlighten the rest of us how the Ringgit is backed?

Sure, the normal reaction in this forum is for the nay-sayers to bash the govt of the day with a lot of conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. Let's be objective and write with knowledge. If you do not understand the monetary policies then it is probably very dangerous to make spins on the way our currency is valued

Henry T
16-07-2012, 02:03 PM
I think it is not so simple as printing. I believe currency must be backed by physical gold reserves or foreign currency reserves. So can anyone enlighten the rest of us how the Ringgit is backed?

Sure, the normal reaction in this forum is for the nay-sayers to bash the govt of the day with a lot of conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. Let's be objective and write with knowledge. If you do not understand the monetary policies then it is probably very dangerous to make spins on the way our currency is valued

It is that simple. Go and ask Uncle Sam and do read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_Agreement

Henry T
16-07-2012, 02:15 PM
I think it is not so simple as printing. I believe currency must be backed by physical gold reserves or foreign currency reserves. So can anyone enlighten the rest of us how the Ringgit is backed?


Gladly. Go read up on what is fiat money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

That's what the Ringgit is.

kuma
16-07-2012, 04:46 PM
I think it is not so simple as printing. I believe currency must be backed by physical gold reserves or foreign currency reserves. So can anyone enlighten the rest of us how the Ringgit is backed?


Sorry Chang,....your believe went out the window 40 years ago :eek: Google 'Nixon and Gold Reserve'....[you should also find the info in the Wiki link in post above.]

ALL currency in the world today is FIAT!....


http://youtu.be/f3hjU58FEio

Henry T
16-07-2012, 05:06 PM
Kuma, on Sat morning I was sitting down to dim sum breakfast with wife and son. I told them that how nice it was to just give them some pieces of papers in exchange for a nice meal. Of course we must first earn those papers. :heheheh:

How things changed. The only legal tender of old were gold and silver pieces.

The way I look at it FIAT currency is only as good as the country issuing it.

Theoretically Uncle Sam (or any other country) can print X trillion overnight and pay off their debts in full but it would also mean you have effectively destroyed your own currency.

kwchang
16-07-2012, 05:26 PM
Sorry Chang,....your believe went out the window 40 years ago :eek: Google 'Nixon and Gold Reserve'... Yes, so I read in those links given ... thanks. That was why I asked and so I got educated on the current scenario of currency values.

But if you had seen the comments on FIAT, all currencies also started to refer to the USD as the reference currency and so long as everyone traded with USD, they have a basis to establish the value of each other's currencies. and that was why I asked about foreign currency reserves.

I am not in banking or trading ... but isn't it true that money doesn't grow on trees? What it means is that value did not exist as some base entity in the past and it "grows" as years go by. Money can't grow. But value can ... so if everyone traded, they build on the values created that way and with the exchange of currencies as the medium of exchange for services/trade, the currency value 'grows'. The corollary to this would be that a currency value will depreciate if the country does not have anything to trade

Henry T
16-07-2012, 05:42 PM
That is why one Zimbabwean dollar is not the same as one USD.

The only reason why the USD did not become worthless pieces of paper is because crude oil and commodities are still traded in that currency. You have to buy USD to pay for it.

And Uncle Sam borrow in their own currency. 1USD now is still 1USD in a hundred years and not subject to currency fluctuations. Clever flers.

kuma
16-07-2012, 06:52 PM
That is why one Zimbabwean dollar is not the same as one USD.

The only reason why the USD did not become worthless pieces of paper is because crude oil and commodities are still traded in that currency. You have to buy USD to pay for it.

And Uncle Sam borrow in their own currency. 1USD now is still 1USD in a hundred years and not subject to currency fluctuations. Clever flers.

Petrodollar ;) If it wasn't for the smartness [or is it shrewdness?] of Kissinger when he managed to convince the late King Feizal to make it mandatory to trade oil in USD, the world would be a different place now :)....back in 1973, during the 'oil embargo' [and just after the 'Nixon Shock'], it is believed that the USD had depreciated by as much as 400% in a short few months. OPEC had dictated that oil be traded in Gold.....the politics of how it all changed is vague, but the US managed to influence them to sell oil for USD, instead of Gold....the rest is history in favour of the the US :D

[Sorry, no specific link for source, but you can start here>1973 oil crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis)]

This is why all other countries need to have 'reserve currency'....and mostly held in USD. Up to a few years back, everything [commodities] was traded almost exclusively in USD.

Henry T
17-07-2012, 08:03 AM
So, these are the things a Gomen can do:

1) Sell state own assets
2) Austerity measures
3) Increase taxes
4) Print money
5) Increase pension fund withdrawal age :D
6) ?

Apa lagi? :confused:

currymee
17-07-2012, 08:07 AM
So, these are the things a Gomen can do:

1) Sell state own assets
2) Austerity measures
3) Increase taxes
4) Print money
5) Increase pension fund withdrawal age :D
6) ?

Apa lagi? :confused:

HISTORICALLY, go to WAR :eek: and conquer another country that is resource-rich .... nowadays, a bit difficult to do so :rolleyes: unless you are USA conquering Iraq .... :p

Henry T
17-07-2012, 08:11 AM
HISTORICALLY, go to WAR :eek: and conquer another country that is resource-rich .... nowadays, a bit difficult to do so :rolleyes: unless you are USA conquering Iraq .... :p

With their fertile mind some despots can always start an imaginary war with imaginary enemies but it wouldn't help the least bit. :laugh:

Rhiga
17-07-2012, 08:17 AM
I think it is not so simple as printing. I believe currency must be backed by physical gold reserves or foreign currency reserves. So can anyone enlighten the rest of us how the Ringgit is backed?

Sure, the normal reaction in this forum is for the nay-sayers to bash the govt of the day with a lot of conjecture and unsubstantiated opinions. Let's be objective and write with knowledge. If you do not understand the monetary policies then it is probably very dangerous to make spins on the way our currency is valued


Chang,

After I read the link on FIAT money, and the replies from Kuma and Henry T....
I think you have bring nay-saying to a different level !! :eek:

Maybe I can call it as nay-moderating !! :D


Cheers

kwchang
17-07-2012, 08:30 AM
...I can call it as nay-moderating !!...
The word is to MODERATE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate) and as you can read from the link, the word moderate as a noun, is someone who is not extreme, partisan or radical... and to moderate is to steer the discussion away from being partisan. That's my job. Now you see why we are moderators... cheers :) :D

Have a look at the wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moderate) too

fonzie
17-07-2012, 08:51 AM
Perhaps this forum discussion may helps folks to understand a bit more about financial turmoil affecting oneself...

http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/4651/what-happens-to-my-savings-if-my-country-defaults-or-restructures-its-debt

Happy reading..!!!

Cheers!

Henry T
17-07-2012, 08:55 AM
The word is to MODERATE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate) and as you can read from the link, the word moderate as a noun, is someone who is not extreme, partisan or radical... and to moderate is to steer the discussion away from being partisan. That's my job. Now you see why we are moderators... cheers :) :D

Have a look at the wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moderate) too


You are reading something in this thread that others couldn't. ESP, maybe? :D

zinglicious
17-07-2012, 01:23 PM
Dont worry be happy - Our RInggit is backed and protected by rubbers. And Fellda nearly makes history this year IPO of being second to facebook.com. Just imagine the power of rubbers. :heheheh:

cml
17-07-2012, 01:41 PM
Facebook should learn from us how not to let their stocks fall. They must get their own pension funds to subscribe to the shares and also some cornerstone investors with the caveat that they cannot sell the shares in 6 months so that their shares would not fall. How come they cannot think of that? Maybe it is because they do not have a supervising body like ours, so boleh wan!!

Henry T
17-07-2012, 01:54 PM
......... Just imagine the power of rubbers. :heheheh:

Ya, it always bounces back. :laugh:

zinglicious
17-07-2012, 01:56 PM
I was thinking that it would be a ballon if you blow it .:heheheh:

Henry T
17-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Facebook should learn from us how not to let their stocks fall. They must get their own pension funds to subscribe to the shares and also some cornerstone investors with the caveat that they cannot sell the shares in 6 months so that their shares would not fall. How come they cannot think of that? Maybe it is because they do not have a supervising body like ours, so boleh wan!!

Propping-up has its inherent danger. When you are weak the whole thing collapses on you and you turn into a hamburger. :heheheh:

All you need is another Soros or semi-Soros. They whack you when you are at your weakest.

cml
17-07-2012, 01:57 PM
It keeps the soldiers out of harms way.

zinglicious
17-07-2012, 02:05 PM
Propping-up has its inherent danger. When you are weak the whole thing collapses on you and you turn into a hamburger. :heheheh:

All you need is another Soros or semi-Soros. They whack you when you are at your weakest.

I think you are right!!;)

Nothing personal with TDM but Soros would be making his mark soon. And our currency may be turning into rubber cheques by other countries.:eek:

kuma
19-07-2012, 12:12 AM
Petrodollar ;)
This is why all other countries need to have 'reserve currency'....and mostly held in USD. Up to a few years back, everything [commodities] was traded almost exclusively in USD.

You might want to read this....
11 International Agreements That Are Nails In The Coffin Of The Petrodollar

Quote:
"Is the petrodollar dead? Well, not yet, but the nails are being hammered into the coffin even as you read this.
For decades, most of the nations of the world have used the U.S. dollar to buy oil and to trade with each other. In essence, the U.S. dollar has been acting as a true global currency.
Virtually every country on the face of the earth has needed big piles of U.S. dollars for international trade. This has ensured a huge demand for U.S. dollars and U.S. government debt. This demand for dollars has kept prices and interest rates low, and it has given the U.S. government an incredible amount of power and leverage around the globe."

"But times are changing. Over the past couple of years there has been a whole bunch of international agreements that have made the U.S. dollar less important in international trade."

"The following are 11 international agreements that are nails in the coffin of the petrodollar….".....READ FULL HERE (http://goo.gl/Ft71S)

Henry T
19-07-2012, 07:31 AM
I figured the Euro, when introduced, would sort of counter balance the USD in importance, which it did initially, but as we know now the Euro is mired in their own set of serious problems.

What would happen eventually to those countries holding trillions of USD bonds? Would the RMB, with Mao's picture on it, be the major world currency one day? Japan's economy has been in the doldrums for so long for one reason or another. All this would not help he local currency, for sure.

zinglicious
19-07-2012, 08:01 AM
The Bet is the Mao would be there as China is becoming the major bond holder and supplier to the American world of consumers. China have done where no other nations have done before in recent financial history. And the Americans cannot stop the financial fire which they have started from the first factory they set on China soil 20 years back. And it cannot be undone compared to the Japannese Invasion in the 80's where it was done only in selected major cities with cosmetic financial buyout.

You can see from the items in Walmart to Kmart, most items have "Made in China" branding from the American Flags to Uniforms designed by Ralph Lauren in the Olympics. Housing in major cities are bought and owned by Chinese. Chinese takeout foods are consumed by Americans where unofficially, it is one of the top 3 lunched daily by fragments of Chinese eatries joints.

The Americans have awaken the Sleeping Dragon of the East where it is flying high in all the corners of the world. From US to UK, Arab to African Canada to Brazil, From Australia to New Zealand. Indonesia to SIngapore, India to Malaysia. How to you stop the mythical Dragon where it has turned into financial beast which can spew financial fire with intense heat? :confused:

The Americans Cannot even use the "Wag the Dog" factor to divert or leverage to thier own angles.

Rhiga
19-07-2012, 08:21 AM
I figured the Euro, when introduced, would sort of counter balance the USD in importance, which it did initially, but as we know now the Euro is mired in their own set of serious problems.

What would happen eventually to those countries holding trillions of USD bonds? Would the RMB, with Mao's picture on it, be the major world currency one day? Japan's economy has been in the doldrums for so long for one reason or another. All this would not help he local currency, for sure.

Yes, it will..

With unbelievably huge foreign reserve, PRC is slowly expanding the political and monetary influence in their “backyard” i.e. Africa.. :p

Africa is the next frontier of world supplier in raw resources. Just to share, offshore Angola can be the next Middle East but you won't read this piece of news often in western media... ;-)

PRC has established a strong foothold in many of the Africa countries via their monetary aid in the form of RMB, and technical assistance in almost every area of development – mining, logging, agriculture, infrastructure, etc.

PRC has the advantage to deal with the war lords/dictators directly compare with US and Europe which hands are tight by the their own rules on dealing with these Africa countries..

To know more, just google : China-Africa development fund..

Do you guys know how huge is the PRC foreign reserve ??

As of April 2012, PRC has more than USD 3.3 trillion in foreign reserve !!

And do you know what USD 3.3 trillion means ?? Here are some interesting numbers..

• Global crude oil production in 2011 is worth USD 3.4 trillion
• The entire US agriculture output in 2011 is less than USD 1.9 trillion
• The combine debts of the European PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece & Spain) is less than USD 1.6 trillion
• The combine market capitalization of Apple+Google+Microsoft+IBM is less than USD 1 trillion

Henry T
19-07-2012, 10:28 AM
Yes, it will..

With unbelievably huge foreign reserve, PRC is slowly expanding the political and monetary influence in their “backyard” i.e. Africa.. :p

Africa is the next frontier of world supplier in raw resources. Just to share, offshore Angola can be the next Middle East but you won't read this piece of news often in western media... ;-)

PRC has established a strong foothold in many of the Africa countries via their monetary aid in the form of RMB, and technical assistance in almost every area of development – mining, logging, agriculture, infrastructure, etc.

PRC has the advantage to deal with the war lords/dictators directly compare with US and Europe which hands are tight by the their own rules on dealing with these Africa countries..

To know more, just google : China-Africa development fund..

Do you guys know how huge is the PRC foreign reserve ??

As of April 2012, PRC has more than USD 3.3 trillion in foreign reserve !!

And do you know what USD 3.3 trillion means ?? Here are some interesting numbers..

• Global crude oil production in 2011 is worth USD 3.4 trillion
• The entire US agriculture output in 2011 is less than USD 1.9 trillion
• The combine debts of the European PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece & Spain) is less than USD 1.6 trillion
• The combine market capitalization of Apple+Google+Microsoft+IBM is less than USD 1 trillion

Wow!

Africa is pretty much a virgin territory and unlike the Americans and some European countries, China doesn't have any historical baggage with them. This reason alone would make trade with them much easier.

What China is doing in Africa is no different from the Americans, Japanese or Europeans in terms of investments other than the fact that they are doing it with their own money. The modus operandi is I invest in your country to create jobs, lend you money on easy terms to build your infras and most important of all, to buy my manufactured goods. Africa certainly need all these.

Even at the risk of some future bad debts it is still better than sitting on the money. Money is only good when you make use of it. :)

besitai2007
19-07-2012, 02:14 PM
An upside is the latest report from Malaysia Insider: "Recent natural disasters in Malaysia’s regional neighbours (Thailand and japan) have perpetuated an industrial boom in Penang as global manufacturers flee to the Pearl of the Orient to park their businesses in a bid to spread risk, the Asian Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported today."

cml
19-07-2012, 04:54 PM
Actually they are going to penang because of the policies that have been put in by the bee end gomen for the last 50 over years. Now the pr gomen is reaping the fruits of their labour. The bee end gomen managed to negotiate with the great powers to spare penang all natural disasters and channel it all to thailand and japan.