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dilemma
09-05-2003, 10:38 PM
i really need everyone's opinion on tis...
now, wat does a non-muslim gal do if she's in love with a muslim guy?
she definitely do not wan to convert to islam when she marries him.
is there an alternative for her besides breaking up with him?
can they migrate to another country n then get married there?

she doesn;t wanna lose him...
pls advise asap!!!

uchangeng
09-05-2003, 10:44 PM
From what I can gather, you can go and get married in Palestine. Arafats is a Muslim, but his young wife is a Christian. So, anyone could figure it out, if Arafats can do this in Palestine, you should have no problem. In Malaysia, if you do this, you will be an outcast, not so much by the law, but by you know who?

empress_julz
10-05-2003, 02:22 AM
uchangeng has a point.

i have several friends who are married to muslims with no problem. but these are extremely open minded muslims who are not quite the practicing type.... you'd probably never see them in a songkok in your lifetime.

i've dated 2 muslim guys - no problems with the religious part. they just turned out to be assholes :) in fact the only guy i did dump because of religion was a christian guy, who did not respect my beliefs and kept trying to convert me.

it's quite sad that religion in malaysia has become a government and a state affair. i remember having a conversation with johan abdullah (NST journalist) and he was telling me how in the 60s, malay women would wear sexy outfits with no issue - many would don bodices and halter tops with ease. these days they seem to have standardised the outfits too much for anyone's liking.

funny if you think about it... shouldn't people be opening up more than closing up? then again, it's their choice.

if it were kept as secularist as possible, i think a lot of people wouldn't face these problems. somehow religion does not factor into politics, society and economics as it did in the 1500s.

but dilemma, just ask yourself this question, and do it with any man you meet - is he worth the sacrifice? if you find yourself hesitating, he's obviously not the one. if you find he's the one, all else will fall into place.

///Ej

saml
10-05-2003, 09:10 AM
In our country if one marries a muslim it is taken for granted that the non muslim would have to convert but in actual fact according to the provisions of the law it is not the case. However the muslim would have to renounce the religion and basically severe all ties with family and friends who are muslim. I may be wrong but from the muslim point i think that is how it works. If there are any muslim brothers out there, we hope that they can enlighten us. For non muslims it is good for us to understand the religion better.

uchangeng
10-05-2003, 04:48 PM
Echo what our prime minister said yesterday, I hope Muslim will come forwards to give their point of view and take the opportunity to explain Islam to non-Muslim.

empress_julz
10-05-2003, 04:58 PM
but we don't have many muslim members in this forum, sadly....

even so, how the religion is practiced is very different from how the individual practices. so in a way it does boil down to the person, ultimately.

///Ej

dilemma
10-05-2003, 05:26 PM
hey guys, i am really grateful for the time u all spent in replying.

uchangeng, wat about singapore? do they hv tis kind of law as well? whereby the non-muslim must convert when they tie the knot? wat happens when they get married elsewhere, like in palestine ;), n then come back here? will they be acknowledged as a married couple here?

empress_julz, i'm interested in knowing more about ur frens who are married to muslims. did they convert? how did their lives change after marriage? how did their family members react?

tat guy is also an open minded person, partly because of his dad, who is an indian. moreover, his granma's chinese. my point is, his way of life is certainly not very 'islamic' but when she marries him, she'll hv to convert. even if they eventually divorce, she'll still be a muslim till the day she dies. am i right?

u ask whether it's worth the sacrifice?
her family hs given her the ultimatum; it's either him or the family... after saying something like "u r an embarrassment to tis family" in disgust, they would totally disown her.

saml, i so wish tat wat u said is true but i believe it isn't as simple as tat. hs anyone ever heard of a muslim renouncing his or her religion here? if tat happens, i would say tat it's a miracle.

the way i see it, she only hs these options:
1) marry him n converting but lose her family entirely;
2) migrate elsewhere n then tie the knot there but wat r the chances of tis happening?
3) break up with him n hope she'll meet another nice guy ( any single gals can tell u tat it's an extremely difficult thing to do these days)

are there any altenative???

btw, hs anyone ever heard of 'tangkap basah' which involves a non-muslim n a muslim?

dilemma urgently needs more help...!

empress_julz
10-05-2003, 05:30 PM
dilemma you can be married anywhere in the world, but you have to be married by an authority that is approved by the malaysian government - for example a malaysian embassy or consulate. so you can get married wherever you want, you are bound to the laws of malaysia.

unless the two of you/the guy have/has citizenship/ pr elsewhere and want to rescind your malaysian citizenship... hence you are bound to the laws of the new country you reside in. (move to new zealand, it's easy)

my friends who got married to muslims have no problems. but you see they went out for many, many years and they were sure of what they were doing. but then again that's them, and the outcome of their relationships can be the total opposite of another's.

and for those ppl, their husbands/wives were not so religious, in fact they're quite open minded free thinkers.

btw you can be a muslim in black and white, or whatever religion, but whether you choose to believe it or not is entirely up to you.

but yes it is a big sacrifice because if i'm not mistaken you'll have to be a muslim for life... but then again, check with the authorities! we're probably not the best ppl to give you legal advice on your life.

i don't know what is 'tangkap basah'. if you're talking about the malay religious authorities busting you, (like JASIN) well i'm not quite sure on that... usually they don't come unless someone calls them over...

but then think it through. you could have extreme happiness with him, but if you have doubts, make a decision. it is afterall, your life.

best of luck!

just a question... but how old are you?

///Ej

dilemma
10-05-2003, 05:52 PM
thanks again for the reply empress_julz.
why u asked? i am gonna be 21 in august n am still studying.

i would wanna get to noe him better, like u said 'many many years' before deciding tat he's the one but my family is so very totally against it, wouldn;t even wan me to meet him.

it's not because he might turn out to be an @$$**** but because he is a muslim, period.

wat do i do?
see him secretly? listen to my family?

empress_julz
10-05-2003, 08:44 PM
your family may care for you, but where your life is concerned, if you're old enough, think it over and decide for yourself. at the end of the day it is afterall, your life.... but you will have to live with your own decisions. but it's unfair of your family to put their foot down because of his race or religion... he may be a perfectly nice guy. if they did not bother to get to know him but are judgemental on that... then they're not being fair to you.

21 is still young, why you worrying about marriage.... just go through the normal motions of your relationship. if it's going to happen one day it will. eitherway you will find out the outcome of your relationship based on what goes on. maybe you'll find he's a very disagreeable guy by your standards... give it time.

my advice is to go out and start working first before you think about marriage. while you're studying, there isn't an inkling of responsibilities with money and life. people change when they get out there and experience what it's life to pay bills, have to be responsible and accountable for 101 things. if you still feel that way after the both of you have passed this aspect of your lives, then go get hitched.

until then, don't worry and enjoy your carefree single days.

///Ej

uchangeng
10-05-2003, 09:42 PM
I would suggest that you talk to someone from Sister In Islam. They can better advise you on the "syariah" or "hudud" law stand point.

Remember, you are only 21, you have time and please take care of yourself, "jangan nanti kena tangkap basah". Spend your time on the relationship, never be blinded by infactuation!

At 21, you are entitle to choose how you want to live your life. Whatever the outcome, the decision you make, remember, love yourself first!

In Singapore, you may stand a chance. There was case, where a famous Muslim female singer married to a non-muslim Indonesian. He died some years ago.

empress_julz
10-05-2003, 10:21 PM
uchangeng that is really not true... even if she gets married anywhere in the world she is still subject to malaysian law as she is a malaysian. unless she changes her citizenship it is a waste of time asking her to get married wherever singapore or god knows. if you get married in countries XYz and you are malaysian, the respective govt reports back to the embassy who reports to the malaysian government. this is mainly to stop bigamists... i.e. ppl who marry 101 wives. in some cases even tax evaders.

either way, the malaysian authorities will find out if you elope without permission. bad bad idea.

apart from anything, i dont think it's good advice to tell ppl to run away from their problems... if you want to stay in malaysia, make it happen... if you want to move do it for good reasons, not over these sorts of things!

but come on dilemma.... 21 is still young... a long way to go. worry bout career and other things first like making sure you can earn enough money to not be dependent on any man, before you do about marriage.


///Ej

kwchang
11-05-2003, 01:01 AM
EJ is right about making a strong footing on your life. With that any lady will be unshakeable - a good career means not being tied to your man forever. As you had not discounted a failed relationship, then go all out for your professional career.

I congratulate you on saying that you would want a long relationship before getting married. Time will decide a lot of things. It will give your family time to learn to respect your choice for one thing - remember that the initial shock to your parents will elicit absolute denial. Then time will really let you see if the guy is really the one for you. Let time show his true colours. Then time will also tell you about yourself, if the rosy perceptions you have now are really a passing thing - marriage is more than just a handsome guy and sensual relationships. Time will allow you to test both your emotional relationships and perspectives of impending family life.

Courtship is fun. Your relationship can be difficult if it demands an immediate launch. Develop your career and look back after 2 years and see if you 2 are still serious.

empress_julz
11-05-2003, 05:13 AM
kwchang is right. but not only is courtship fun, it will determine whether your relationship has the strength to work out. for all you know after a few years you would have grown out of each other. better find this out sooner before committing yourself to unnecessary pain. and yes, have fun in the midst of discovering it. if your relationship becomes anything less than happiness, then leave.

as a woman who has other female friends, i noticed this about them.... they seem to think that "domestic bliss" is the main purpose in their lives. no offence, but where do they get these sorts of thoughts from? and it seems to be custom to my malaysian friends. the foreigners i know never speak of marriage, they think of career, or in terms of the strength of the relationship than superficial bonds.

i'm a firm believer that you have to empower yourself before you hope to rely on others for love, shelter, money, food, whatever else you need. at the end of the day, the man can walk out on the woman. the man can die... i saw that happen with some of my friend's families... in all 3 cases the woman was a homemaker. all families ran into severe difficulties. i don't ever want to be in that position.

i've also noticed that men who have women who are capable of handling themselves feel more secure about the relationship. some may take advantage of a strong career or standing, but if you're with the right guy i think he'll appreciate you more for the fact that you can *think*in a level headed manner and solve your own problems without having to rely on him.

as for me, no marriage till i can afford as many shoes as i please...

///Ej

saml
11-05-2003, 08:58 AM
In Malaysia I think it is legally possible but now the question is not about legality. It is about acceptance by both your families. I think that is a bigger hurdle than the law as you have to live with them and their mindsets for as long as you all live. You are still young, take a bit more time to know each other and at the end of the day one of you will have to make the ultimate sacrifice and hope that over time your families would accept the both of you for what you are and stand for, love.

JoeJaffar
12-05-2003, 01:43 PM
Muslim and non-muslim getting married. Now, this is from my understanding, of what was taught to me. I may not be well-versed in the current Syariah laws in this country, but I shouldn't be too far off . I practice Islam as best as I can, but I am not the authority to help you in your decision. It would be better if you check with JAKIM, the Malaysian Islamic Development Council, or drop by any of the mosques in this country. They should be able to clear things up.

From what was taught to me, a muslim <b>male</b> can marry a non-muslim female, provided that the non-muslim partner is from the people of the book, i.e. Jew or Christian, in its truest sense. The non-muslim can opt to convert to Islam if one chooses to do so. On the other hand, a muslim female <b>can</b> only marry a muslim male. Whether the marriage between a muslim male and non-muslim female is legal in this country, that I'm not so sure. But I think it is practised in Indonesia and some parts of the Middle East.

Whether a person marries a muslim in this country or overseas, one still has to register their marriage with the respective state Islamic council. This is to legalize the marriage according to Malaysia's Syariah Law, and especially helpful in the future, namely for birth, and God forbid, divorce and death.

Again, this is from my understanding. So it's better to seek counsel with JAKIM.

empress_julz
12-05-2003, 05:21 PM
are u sure joe......

i have a friend whose parents are: mother is muslim (malay), father is chinese (was a buddhist)

i have another friend whose father is muslim (malay), mother chinese (was buddhist also)

i think non-muslims and muslims can inter-marry whether or not the other party is christian/jew... it's just whether they have to convert that's another question...

then again i'm not sure. better check with jakim.

then again why check, just go on having fun in your relationship and worry when you want to marry. which is probably far in the future...

///Ej

JoeJaffar
13-05-2003, 09:00 AM
Well, that was what was taught to me. Again, I could be wrong with my not so in-depth knowledge. For personal practice, I'm fine. But to teach others, well.. better go to the imams and ulama' :)

JoeJaffar
13-05-2003, 09:07 AM
Oh.. ok.. I forgot to add. A muslim male or female can marry a converted non-muslim, whether he/she was Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc. If the non-muslim is willing to convert, than it is a non-issue with the state religious council. Just follow the procedures provided by them.

What I wrote was meant to be, if the non-muslim female is Jewish or Christian in it's truest sense, the non-muslim female can chose to convert or not if she wants to marry a male muslim. But a non-muslim male, be it Jewish, Christian, Buddhist etc can not marry a female muslim without first converting to Islam. I guess, I wasn't clear enough in my first posting.

Again, a disclaimer. Check with the more knowledgable authority :D

dilemma
14-05-2003, 04:55 AM
it's not tat i'm yearning for 'domestic bliss'. i'm one of those people who hav little faith in marriage. marrying someone is definitely not on top of my 'To Do' list.

u see, my family asked me a million Qs tat i cannot answer at tis moment. they're pestering me to make a decision- family of him? i've always put my family first in terms of priority but to think that i might lose a potential 'soul mate' because of family objection is like watching the movie: "The Biggest Regret of My Life....coming soon to a cinema near u.... 2004". after all, it is my life n everyone's gonna die off at the end of the day...

so, ladies n gentleman, i've therefore decided to tell my family i've broken up with him. tis way, i not only get to escape the lectures n the guilty feeling but also end the cold war between me n my family. until they find out about the truth, i'll try to enjoy the relationship n find out more about him.

last but not least, i wanna thank u guys n gals for ur advise n information. it hs been really helpful. anymore opinions/suggestions are most welcomed =)

empress_julz
14-05-2003, 07:02 AM
don't get us wrong dilemma, we have regard and respect for domestic bliss and happy marriage. which is why the older members of the forum have given advice (which i will take myself) that it is important to discover yourself and your partner without even considering the question of marriage.

but if you're already worrying about how to marry the guy without being caught by jakim, etc., then then you have gone beyond questioning to considering. everybody here has thought of marriage from a young age, but not everyone goes further than thinking about it.

but dilemma, your decision to lie to your parents, i cannot agree with. why should you lie?

you can only expect parents to lecture and worry. they do that because they are your parents and want the best for you. have they met the guy yet? what do they know about him? if i was a parent i would ask the same questions, it comes with the job, it comes with being a parent who cares.

perhaps they're asking you many questions because you've not been as open as you should be?

why my father is accepting of the man i'm going out with is because 1. i've been honest, 2. i introduced him to him. all those questions that my dad had before went away. as a general rule i've always been honest to my parents about what i'm up to. if i have nothing to hide, i will say so. if i want to do something, i will say so.there is no question on honesty or accountability.

i'm always for truth and open communication. if i were your parents i would prefer it if you were open to me and told the truth, rather than lie and deceive. at the end of the day they will lose their trust for you, and if they have thoughts that you cannot be trusted/your actions cannot be trusted, you are proving them right. only through the truth can you hope to convince them that you can take control of your life. how do you expect to convince them that you are able to take care of yourself if you can't take responsibility for authority?

i am not a parent but i can imagine the concern and the care they would have for their young ones - they only want the best. if your parents are not happy with your decision, prove it like an adult. fight it out with them if you have to, face the punishments and repercussions. that way they will know that you've really grown up and that your relationship means *that much* to you. even if they truly disagree with your decision, they will accept inevitably, if they are your parents and truly care for you.

you have to think about what's going through your parent's mind. at the end of it, you are their daughter, and when you get married there is nothing they can do if you've ruined your life with the wrong way. which is why it is totally acceptable for them to be a bit fussy.

being an adult is about facing up to things, being honest. if you have to lie about your relationship, i.e. if you can't be open about it because of fear, or if it's really not that worth fighting for, then think about whether it's even worth it in the first place.

We are the people our parents warned us about.
- Anonymous

///Ej