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jeffooi
26-03-2003, 08:38 PM
<font size="+1">Related threads:
<a href="http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2881">Only Touch 'n Go card for all toll payment</a>
<a href="http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3001&highlight=Touch+and+Go">There's a card that 'sotong' everything... </a></font>

jeffooi
26-03-2003, 08:44 PM
THE EDGE DAILY
Tuesday, March 25, 2003, 3.26pm

<font size="+1">Non-PLUS toll operators propose alternative collection system</font>
By Jimmy Yeow and Toh Lye Huat


Non-PLUS Expressways Bhd (PLUS) toll concessionaires have submitted an alternative proposal to the government on the implementation of the single electronic toll collection (ETC) system other than the proposed Touch n Go system.

<img src="http://www.theedgedaily.com/images/default/articles/20387/toll_pix_inside.jpg" align="left" vspace="10" hspace="10">
The new proposal, which came from Malaysian Electronic Payment Systems (MEPS), is believed to come with lower commission charges and lower cost of installation besides being backed by financial institutions.

Last year, the government announced that the Touch n Go system would be the single electronic toll payment system for all tolled highways in the country by January this year.

However, its implementation was postponed to June this year after the non-PLUS concessionaires failed to agree on the terms set by Rangkaian Segar Sdn Bhd the operator of Touch n Go system.

Toll operators affected by the move are Grand Saga Sdn Bhd, Kesas Sdn Bhd, Lingkaran Trans Kota Sdn Bhd and Sistem Penyuraian Trafik KL Barat. However, other concessionaires such as MTD Prime Sdn Bhd and Shapadu Sdn Bhd, which do not have any electronic collection system, will have to implement the single collection system.

Sources tell theedgedaily.com that the concessionaires have submitted the new proposal using MEPS as the clearing house to the Works Ministry, Finance Ministry and Bank Negara.

The latest proposal will use the expertise of a local technology company via the development of a chip-based ETC with MEPS. It is learnt that MEPS has demonstrated the ETC system on the non-PLUS toll highway to government officials.


FULL STORY:
http://www.theedgedaily.com/article.cfm?id=20387

xweird
27-03-2003, 10:21 AM
If i'm not mistaken, MEPS cash is contact-technology, not contactless like the touch-n-go... anyone can clarify on that?

jeffooi
27-04-2003, 12:19 PM
THE EDGE WEEKLY
Monday, April 21, 2003

<font size="+1">Green light for Touch 'n Go?</font>
No go for alternative proposal to use MEPS platform, say sources
By Khairul Annuar

Touch 'n Go is likely to be made the single electronic toll collection system (ETC) for toll roads in the country, with a final decision to come by the end of the month, sources say.

That should put an end to speculation on the system to be adopted after an alternative proposal was submitted by toll operators which do not now use the Touch 'n Go platform.

[...]

Last April, the Works Ministry announced the implementation of a single ETC to be based on the Touch 'n Go system. An alternative ETC based on the Malaysian Electronic Payment Systems (MEPS)' electronic purse was then put forward.

Sources tell The Edge that the alternative proposal has been shot down, and that MEPS is expected to be restricted to the retail sector. MEPS was incorporated in 1996 to operate a national electronic payment system for Malaysian retailing.

"Everything will be clear before the end of the month," a party familiar with the negotiations says. "There has been a flurry of meetings among the toll road operators in the past week or so to finalise details," he adds.

FULL STORY:
http://www.theedgedaily.com/article.cfm?id=21062

empress_julz
27-04-2003, 12:35 PM
you're right xweird... if i'm not mistaken as well, it's linked to your bank account. meps is that system which also enables us to withdraw from different bank accounts in the same group. i.e. if i have a bumiputra account i can withdraw from an RHB ATM.

what an illogical system. they should just shut up and agree to something. to link the tolls to one's bank account is ridiculous.

all the countries i've visited with tolls (england has no tolls) have *one standardised billing system*. you don't have this card for this toll, that card for another toll.

the government should force this down their throat. lest the millions of consumers pay the price for their inabilities to conduct business efficiently.

///Ej

xweird
06-05-2003, 01:52 PM
Actually, what's the latest on this issue anyway? Will touch-n-go be the standard?

JoeJaffar
06-05-2003, 02:43 PM
read in the papers today. forgot whether it was the star or nst. the deputy works minister i think, said that there will be no extension to the deadline for toll ops to change to TnG. they must stop using their own electronic tags and convert by june 1. but at the end of his statement, he did mentione that samy vellu will announce the actual implementation.

btw, why can't the just let fastrak, kesas tag etc to co-exist with TnG? kinda like, frequent user program. just like smartag at Plus tolls. unless, they're confused between TnG and smartag.

or install coin baskets like the ones i've came across in new york. for open toll system, the drivers just have to drop the exact amount into the basket. they still have manned-booth for those with not enough coins, but from what i saw, the unmanned coins baskets booth flows smoother.

jericho
06-05-2003, 02:49 PM
MEPS stands for Malaysian Electronic Payment System and its activities is not solely on inter-bank ATM transaction but includes e-commerce like E-Transaction, E-Purse and Multi Purpose Payment Card. It does not means the MEPS has to link into one's bank account. Therefore it makes good sense to have MEPS as the operator for the electronic toll collection system instead of introduce another cash card into the society.

In this issue, the government is taking a step back from it own initiatives for a single smart card technology and a cashless society. The new smart-card ID has the ability incorporate financial functions like ATM card and e-purse beside the driver license, passport and health card.

xweird
06-05-2003, 02:53 PM
I had the chance to use a MEPS cash card around 3 years back (pioneer users in Multimedia University Cyberjaya). It was kind of a hassle mainly because of 2 things:

1) It was a contact-card, as opposed to contactless. THings would've progressed faster had it been a contactless one such as TNG.

2) Lack of reload machines that link to MEPS banks. All we had was a manned counter that opened once a week for ppl to pay cash and manually reload the card.

So did it improve?

jericho
06-05-2003, 03:06 PM
xweird,

I think there is a general confusion on this issue. Touch n Go is still a contact-card, what makes it a contactless-card is the smart tag equipment.

And with MEPS as the alternative, the reload will be much more convenience since it can be done over the ATMs.

xweird
06-05-2003, 03:11 PM
Sorry jericho.. maybe i must reexplain the terminology i use :confused:

When i say "contact" i mean actual physical contact. When using the MEPS card, I had to shove it into this reading machine which was definitely a major bummer!

TNG is contactless because there is no actual physical contact. You basically hold it near the receiver, and the TNG is constantly transmitting information through its loop antenna embedded inside the card.

The Plustag amplifies this signal to enable it to travel further and through windows. It's a form of an active repeater I believe.

So, if MEPS card has not evolved from 3 years back, if we were to use it at tolls, we would all have to shove the card into the reader's slot instead of tapping it gently on the reader.

Hope that wasn't too confusing ;)

JoeJaffar
06-05-2003, 03:25 PM
Ah.. ok.. now i get it.

I always thought that if MEPS is used, it must swiped, just like at the cash register.

In terms of technological davance, which is the most up-to-date? TnG and smartag , or fastrak etc? TnG and smartag is convenient, cos I can take out the TnG card and used it on the LRT. But I thought in MyKad and MEPS have the e-purse feature that could be used for purchases, LRT, buses etc. Doesn't that defeat the intentions in the first place?

empress_julz
06-05-2003, 03:29 PM
how can any of these cards be considered 'easy cards' when for any particular system, we need another card... shouldn't there be a standard "one card for all"? or at least for the tolls, at the very least.

the constant inabilities to sort these issues out has resulted in us, the consumers, paying the price via inconvenience and extra costs.

wish these ppl could crack their heads and get one good card that can be respected, like the octopus card in hong kong. now that's one card that can tout technology and convenience!

///Ej

jericho
06-05-2003, 03:54 PM
xweird,

I believe the MEPS has a contactless system as well by using the smart card technology.

Do you remember the advertisement on the radio about one particular bank credit card with a touch n go incorporated into it as well ?

xweird
06-05-2003, 03:57 PM
jericho.. actually maybe we shouldn't say that meps has this and tng hasn't... it all boils down to the Card that holds these technologies. Maybe it so happened that the TNG cards are equipped with loop antennas, while the MEPS cash card didn't.

Maybe the issuing companies will decide to embed the antennas for both systems residing in the same card.

empress_julz
06-05-2003, 03:59 PM
antennas? do you mean transmitters xweird?

antennas are those pokey things that stick out... like from a cockroach's head...

///Ej

satish
06-05-2003, 04:03 PM
Above card now is "the only allowed card for toll collection!"

Only goes to show that the profit goes to one pocket!

If we can have your bank card usable to get money from other banks ATMs, I cannot see the reasons why this cannot be applied to toll collection.

All it needs is SOFTWARE!..not "pocketware"!

Hong Kong's Octupus uses translation
software to allow merchants to allow its use for so many types of transactions.

Its also easy to allow many types of cards/readers to be enabled
so that they can be allowed to be used for toll collection.

And we talk of being IT savy Nation!

No transparency here....

xweird
06-05-2003, 04:05 PM
OK I mean a transmitter and an antenna.

Basically the microchip stores all the info, and it can be connected to a transmitter

The transmitter can then feed the electrical energy into an antenna, which then converts electricity to electromagnetic waves.

EM waves are what travel from the card to the receiver at the toll booth.

Also to add, both components can perform both transmit and receive, hence they ought to be called transceivers.

empress_julz
06-05-2003, 04:09 PM
satish, you're right on the convenience side of things and the octopus card. how i wish for it to come into play in malaysia too!

on the meps card thing though, while i'm happy that we can have a card that's convenient for all, i am very sceptical and against tying a card i use to pay toll fees to my bank accounts.

my main worry is the security of the system - what is to stop someone with a wireless interface from sitting by the side of the road at the toll gate, stealing off bank account numbers and details?

in europe the banks here spend a tonne of cash on their IT security. there's a reason for that - all it takes is one, heck of a talented and greedy individual to find a weakness in the system and exploit it. and it has happened.

i think an octopus card like system where you can preload your card with an existing amount of cash is fantastic. why don't we have that instead of this beat around the bush nonsense, from one card to the next?

*sigh*

///Ej

kwchang
06-05-2003, 04:40 PM
EJ's argument...

i think an octopus card like system where you can preload your card with an existing amount of cash is fantastic
just described the Touch-n-Go system.
I think that supporters of the Octopus card can't argue against TnG.

By the way, the PLUS transmitter/receivers uses infra-red - as evidenced by people who can't use it if they had IR-screens to block out the heat on their windshields.

Bank cards aren't going to change to a trasmitter system to benefit everyone. If the MEPS were to remain as is, it would need an attachment like the one used by PLUS to do infra-red transmissions. Then we are not going to avoid having users to purchase the expensive transmitter/receiver. The fact that MEPS cards need to be swiped (assuming this is the defacto method for MEPS), it will be teriibly cumbersome to use for toll-gates.

jericho
06-05-2003, 04:54 PM
With the smart card technology (chip based), more than one application can be incorporated into a single card. For instance, the new Bankcard (http://www.bankcard.com.my) has the normal ATM application and also e-Debit and MEPS cash (e-purse) applications on it. The payment of toll will be from the MEPS cash and not directly from your banking account. Therefore you don't have to link your banking account for payment of toll.

If you really understand how technology works, then you would have faith in the system. Of course the system does goes haywire sometime, but tracing back all the transactions will be easy since it is all well recorded.

Mind you, not only banks in europe spend tonnes of money on IT security but the rest of banks in the world do as well. People outside europe is not idiots as you might had implied.

joker2107
06-05-2003, 06:46 PM
ej's quite right - if they can hit u thro the atm they can hit u thro eftpos and debit card systems which directly access ur account. smart cards r safe(r) only for the time being. chip writers will be a household item just like cd writers in the not too distant future. what then? new ics. more mega money. moves the economy.


Mind you, not only banks in europe spend tonnes of money on IT security but the rest of banks in the world do as well. People outside europe is not idiots as you might had implied.

jericho, the only idiots are the ones who have nothing better to do than to hack systems and create viruses etc. very much like medicine, antidotes can only be created after a problem is discovered. it systems, being sophicated and man-made as they r, r impossible to be infallible. as long as such idiots exist the onus is on the user to trust the elctronics they patronise. wherever u r, europe, us, africa, asia, timbuktu. everywhere.

empress_julz
06-05-2003, 07:09 PM
jericho i never said that banks worldwide do not spend money on IT, nor was i implying anything bout anyone being an idiot - please don't put words into my mouth.

if you're talking about those that spend the most, from what i know (i.e. i have a good friend who is the IT director of a big bank in malaysia, another friend who is the IT director of a major corporation, as well as a friend who is the IT director of a bank in italy) the banks in europe invest more than at least the banks in malaysia do.

in asia the only 2 countries that spend big on IT are japan and hong kong. japan notably after nomura bank suffered a major hit from a big theft.

one of the reasons is because hacking in europe is a big thing - ppl are more ambitious here to thieve into bank systems via computers than they do dig holes in the ground to reach vaults. malaysia fortunately does not have that problem.

it has nothing to do with idiocy jericho, it has to do with the state of criminal activity and security.

but still, it's just a matter of time before some guy gets a great idea and does a good hacking job. how sure are you that MEPS or the banks here are prepared?

sorry, but you can't tell me to "have faith in the system" when i nor you know what head or tails of the system they're using. for all you know they have a pre-ordered firewall in place protecting our bank account details from the "otherside", maybe even zonealarm. can you prove against it? you can't, i can't either. (if you could prove it i'd have even more serious doubts about the security system itself)

at this point, we do not know if the MEPS system that they were thinking of implementing encompassed solely cash-purse based cards, i.e. not linked to the bank account, or those that linked to the bank account, or both. i'll make my case for both ends.

i am not happy fusing my bank accounts with toll payments. i don't think the risk is worth the convenience. i would not do that in malaysia, in america, in europe, in timbuktu, anywhere.

if it is like what some ppl said, swiping the card, waiting for it to access the account, verify there is sufficient funds, then that's so cumbersome and hence we might as well reach out for the coins in our pockets.

on the other hand if it's via transmitters, what is to stop a very clever hacker from sitting by the side of the toll booths, flicking off bank account details via wireless?

i am all for the current touch 'n go system to be in place throughout, just like the octopus card in hong kong. it is safe and secure, if you lose the card RM100 goes down the drain, but your bank accounts don't get emptied.

and joker is right - to replicate chips would not be a problem in future. i don't believe it is at present either, it's just not as widespread.

and already at present, banks around malaysia issue warnings and notices on their ATMs to check carefully whether there are any devices attached to the ATM machine - what has happened is that the device is in fact something which copies the data off the magnetic strip, the thieves then duplicate the ATM card, and withdraw at will.

another strong point as to why it can't be a good thing to put these things on toll booths. also points to the fact that our IT sector needs gross improvements before they get adventurous and implement MEPS elsewhere.

(remember that other foray MEPS had, by trying to get ppl to pay with "MEPS Cash Card", supposedly launched in bangsar to start with, that never quite kicked off? how many ppl here actually have it?)

the security concerns about fusing bank accounts with toll payments (what, worth a mere RM0.70 at times) is just too great a risk. is it really that necessary that i would want to put several thousand bucks on the line for a mere 0.70sen transaction? or do i need to go through the cumbersome process of applying for a MEPS card, a new account with a small dingy sum in there to ensure my funds are safe?

if we go with the line that it is not fused with our bank accounts, it is a seperate system, this bank card thing, this means yet another account to be opened, with more money put in. back to my points again, that if it's a wireless based system, then it's hackable, if it's not a wireless based system, i.e. if we're going to swipe it, it takes a long time.

why do i have to get yet another card for all the convenience? have more money tied in here and there, pay different commission rates, etc. etc. etc.?

so many discouraging aspects bout this MEPS thing. let's just stick to touch 'n go!

note: i am not an IT expert, nor am i qualified to make such judgements. these are just my worries as a concerned consumer and an owner of a few wads of cash here and there.

///Ej

satish
06-05-2003, 08:29 PM
My contention....

Why allow only one T n G card ?

Why will they not allow the other toll operators issue their own
cards ?

If the other toll operators are allowed to issue universal cards
that can be used on other toll systems..then its "fair play"!

Mind you..we are talking big buckaroos here..deposit for card RM15..(costs less than RM5 to make), plus the reload amount, say RM50..total RM65..multiplied say 500,000 users..
equals RM32,500,000 buckaroos !

This same RM 32.5 million goes to one company.. to give them
cash in hand mah...

my 2 sens worth..

empress_julz
06-05-2003, 09:28 PM
yeah satish, yr right.

one reason why a lot of ppl i know did not want to get that plus tag thing that holds the card is because although it is convenient, they require a RM50 deposit. it wouldn't take a genius to tell you the plastic holder is worth maybe RM0.50 to manufacture en masse. RM50 is a lot! some greedy marketing guy thought up a good scheme.

and who's to say what their refund policy is on that as well... God knows if they give you a cheque that comes in in 4 months. you know how a lot of these companies say "refund on the spot", and do the opposite of what they say.

whilst i do think that it is only logical a company looks for ways it can make a profit, these sorts of things can't make me (and others) think that they are all out for the money, too far out in fact.

sounds like another "emperor package" deal...

touch 'n go it should be!

///Ej

CCY
06-05-2003, 09:52 PM
Smart card or maybe TnG is basically an embedded microcontroller or computer , small enough to be sandwich in plastic ,that act as a fierce gatekeeper to allow only authorised information to passed to & fro to a memory array that store whatever information needed for a transaction.
Smart cart also have 2 types .Contactless and contact.
Contactless card uses a loop antenae to generate enough electricity from the electromagnetic or simply call radio waves from the transmitting/receiving terminal to operate the embedded microcontroller and responses to whatever command that has been programmed to do . A contact card will derives electricity directly from the contact terminal. As radio waves is being used , it therefore exposes a very weak point and a field time for would be hackers. You can practically pick whatever information you want with sensitive equipment distances away .
You can practically emulate the exact responses from the card by programming another similar smart card . If the system used for verifying is standalone , there will be problem for the operator ... not you. If it is online verification , most probably the transation will be detected as frauldulent /invalid and the transaction will not go through. Therefore as long as hackers are able to tap into and get hold of information transacted between terminal and card , they can duplicate its responces and may be able to used it offline , most probably not online or closed loop transaction.

jericho
07-05-2003, 08:31 AM
ej,

i'm not putting any words into your mouth. but from most of your posting, you always post examples that implies everything is perfect or superior in europe and things in your motherland seems to be inferior and imperfect. this is really an insult to your country folks.

i believe joecool already addressed this issue before. i'm not here to look for an argument but rather to ask you to be more open minded on your opinions. europe is a perfect heaven or the place where only gospel truth can be found. i had travel and work extensively in europe before and i know the comparative standard over there and here.


if you're talking about those that spend the most, from what i know (i.e. i have a good friend who is the IT director of a big bank in malaysia, another friend who is the IT director of a major corporation, as well as a friend who is the IT director of a bank in italy) the banks in europe invest more than at least the banks in malaysia do.

another habits of yours is mentioning you know this big shot and that big shot. i still don't understand why in the other posts about bikes vs cars that your 2 billionaires friends and their details has to came into the picture. it really gives other people the impression that you are trying to show off about your circle friends. sometime you don't have to mention it at all but just be a bit more humble.

anyway back to the original issue. a lot of people has this wrong impression that things companies in US or European countries do tend be more superior because the amount of money they spend is much more than what a local company would spent.

Let me give you an example : A company in US/Europe and a local ones is using an exactly same product (eg. a firewall server), and the company in US/Europe spend USD1 million for both hardware and maintenance whereas the local company spent only USD500K for the same due to cheaper labour cost. so based on the amount spent, can we conclude that the local company is inferior to that of US/Europe ?

therefore you argument is not completely true as far as it is based on the amount spent.


in asia the only 2 countries that spend big on IT are japan and hong kong. japan notably after nomura bank suffered a major hit from a big theft.

Do you know how high the living standard and salary level in Hong Kong and Japan ? It is a few times higher than the rest of Asia.


but still, it's just a matter of time before some guy gets a great idea and does a good hacking job. how sure are you that MEPS or the banks here are prepared?

So if a bank in Hong Kong is spending more than a bank in Europe in the IT security, can we conclude that the bank in Europe is not as prepared as the one in Hong Kong for fraud prevention ?

The people working in MEPS or local banks is not idiots sitting at the desk and wait for people to hack their system. They are professional people who know their job functions just like their counterparts in the rest of the world.


sorry, but you can't tell me to "have faith in the system" when i nor you know what head or tails of the system they're using. for all you know they have a pre-ordered firewall in place protecting our bank account details from the "otherside", maybe even zonealarm. can you prove against it? you can't, i can't either. (if you could prove it i'd have even more serious doubts about the security system itself)

I really don't understand why you always think that everythings in local is inferior or sub standard. for once why can't you have the idea that a local bank might be using the same security as those in europe ? why it always has to be a substandard or inferior systems from timbuktu as far as local is concerned in your thought ? mind you, local banks got the consultation services from international consultation firm and not timbuktu.



at this point, we do not know if the MEPS system that they were thinking of implementing encompassed solely cash-purse based cards, i.e. not linked to the bank account, or those that linked to the bank account, or both. i'll make my case for both ends.

i will let you find out on your own at MEPS (http://www.meps.com.my) and BankCard (http://www.bankcard.com.my)

When they say e-purse, they mean a card store pre-paid monetary value directly on the smart card. Nothing more nothing less. Octopus card is a good example of an e-purse contactless smart card technology.

Transaction on MEPS CASH (an e-purse) operates in off-line mode just like Octopus and it is convenient for low value transactions. it just that MEPS now offer a 2 in 1 card which comprise of an ATM with e-purse application as well.

Open up your mind and see your motherland from a different angle and you might find heaven and gospel truth overhere as well.

xweird
07-05-2003, 09:00 AM
Thank you CCY for a comprehensive explanation on the smart card technology. I'm sure some of us here do not know what a smart card is.

But I suppose that the only people that will know the exact architecture of a smart card microcontroller would be people in the smart card industry. And knowing the exact program that the microcontroller runs on would require someone to have a smart card reader and the appropriate decyphering software.

Besides, it's true that using MEPS as a linking technology among the toll operators does not necessarily mean involving your bank accounts. MEPS stands for Malaysian Electronic Payment System. Nowhere in its acronym there's a word for "Bank". So unless the implementation is a direct debit from your savings/current account, there should be no problem in using it as a prepaid card (much like TNG). The only difference is that the revenue generated would not go to only one company, but to a centralized fund which then gets distributed in whatever fashion their SLAs dictate.

Finally, on the subject of the smart tag, I personally believe RM50 is too much for a plastic terminal and some amplification hardware. Lowering this amount would encourage more users to try them out. But I also believe that it costs some significant ringgit to manufacture due to its electronic components, assembly and QC at the factory. Sure the cost price of the raw materials may be 50sen, but going through the manufacturing process would undoubtedly incur some OPEX.

Overall the monopoly should not be shifted to one toll operator, which can then dictate how the monies are distributed up to their whims.

JoeJaffar
07-05-2003, 09:38 AM
The thing is, why can't the government allow the other non-Plus toll operators to retain their existing electronic payment systems, but add a TnG reader alongside their booths? At least, existing non-Plus toll users who rarely use Plus hiways can keep their fastrak, kesastag or whatever. Bear in mind, these tags, like Smartag for Plus, are meant for drive-thru toll payment, no need to open the window (or door depends on what type of cars we drive :D ).

Another thing, if the TnG is to be made the de facto card for toll, will there be additional dedicated TnG lanes? As those who frequent the Batu 3 or any other NKVE toll plazas can see, the queue at TnG lanes are as long as any manual lanes. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of faster payment?

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 12:46 PM
jericho, i couldnt be bothered to read your post, notably after your first line:


i'm not putting any words into your mouth. but from most of your posting, you always post examples that implies everything is perfect or superior in europe and things in your motherland seems to be inferior and imperfect. this is really an insult to your country folks.

just as a general note, we have established that joecool is not an authority on me, neither are you.

please don't put words in my mouth. somehow or other it's just a select few noisemakers who don't have the ability to digest simple facts as they come their way.

what, can't hit on the points so hit on the person?

please get back to the debate or open another thread in my favour. this is really tiresome.

///Ej

saml
07-05-2003, 12:46 PM
I used to work for a few multi billionaires. Wonder if I can call them my friend? We eat together, talk business and sometimes joke (if I am not being screwed by them!!!!). I also used to go surveying the naughty places with another who is the chairman of a main board company ( that was before he became the chairman and we were colleagues ) I think I should be able to call him my friend. I guess all of us have friends like that so we should not use this forum to tell the others which big shot we know. As far as I am concerned only insecure people do that.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 01:04 PM
what, is this the pcyeoh-jericho-joecool-saml-whoever else coalition again?

you guys sound more like primary school kids than you do grown men with good, proper, and strong opinions.

heh, sorry guys, but there's no credibility when you admit that you're in things just for the sake of taking a jab at me.

join a forum and look at causing a ruckus for the sake of it, instead of sticking to the good rule of the debate - i.e. respecting a person's experiences and not holding their personal life against them. and maybe picking on the points and not the person?

yes saml, i know that it's not important who you know, but who knows you. please don't think i'm so naive and stupid. and i'm not insecure either, which is why i can make the assertions and not worry about it.

this is the net - you don't know how rich or how poor i am, or whether i'm the king of russia or not. for all you know i'm a fat bearded trucker who goes by the name mickey or i could be princess anne for what it's worth.

are you so judgemental as to ppls experiences that you cannot take their word for it, you have to go around sounding like a distrusting wife who thinks her husband has a mistress? god get real, this is the net. my character is of no relevance to the topic at hand, nobody cares to listen to your nonsense so quit it please. you either take things at face value or you don't. don't believe me? fine. just move on man.... what's the deal with causing the big huff and the puff? not like you win a donut or something for your efforts.

here, have a donut: o

umm thanks for sharing your story on your chairman friend saml, touched my heart. what does it have to do with meps and tolls?

i know some things that ppl don't. i tell ppl my side of the story when i feel it is relevant to the issue, i.e. my opinions via my experiences or what i heard from ppl, without fear of prejudice, and i have yet to receive that save the lot of you. do i have to feel sorry for my experiences? do ppl have to feel sorry because you claim that they are insecure and god knows what else?

if you think you have a claim, please start a new topic. if not for that, quit derailing yet another topic and poking at whatever ppl say.

last i checked this topic was on "MEPS" and "tolls", not on me. so are you ppl going to be man enough to accept the topic for what it is, or are you going to continue causing more trouble for the sake of proving how idiosyncratic you can stoop to?

grow up boys!

///Ej

JoeJaffar
07-05-2003, 01:20 PM
somehow, wherever EJ posts her replies or debates, there will be all these exchanges. it's getting tiring to read all that... :(

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 01:22 PM
joejaffar is right.

he also had some good advice for me too, which i will apply. thanks for the positive note joejaffar!

i think from now on i'm going to make an active effort to NOT respond or bother with these responses. from what i have seen in other threads, just responding does nothing more than get more responses from them, which is certainly not in my interest and not in the interest of the forum.

ppl, i will make the active effort from now on to ignore these personal insults and grouses. i hope you do too.

hopefully in time they would give up and stop. if they don't, we carry on with our topic.

should the lot of trollers want to start a new thread on me, then maybe i will consider answering there, but if they're main preoccupation is derailing topics for the sake of poking at me, then that's a very selfish objective, one that does nothing but hurt this forum.

let's get back to the topic ;)

cheers!
///Ej

jericho
07-05-2003, 01:42 PM
ej,

as i said in my previous post, open up your mind and be a bit more humble. i think it is you who is the one that can't put personal grudge aside. as seen on many posting, when someone does not agree to your opinions you really get all work up.

all this while we do not have any arguments with fellow forumners not until you join this forum. no doubt sometime your arguments on topics can be interesting but just that sometime in between your argument you sounded a bit snotty or stuck-up with a standoffish manner.

just try to be a bit more humble and accept criticsm with open mind and you will find it more enjoyable here.

anyway with your unusual style this forum is much lively than before!

xweird
07-05-2003, 01:48 PM
Joejaffar:
The thing is, why can't the government allow the other non-Plus toll operators to retain their existing electronic payment systems, but add a TnG reader alongside their booths?

Yeah, why not? But then again that would incur much much more cost to ALL operators, and more likely than not this cost will get transfered to the end users... most likely we're going to suffer because of this...

Unless of course the Govt subsidises this exercise... NOT

:cool:

CH
07-05-2003, 01:54 PM
Resistance to change. Resistance to change. This is what I saw in this thread.

Everyone agree that Octopus card is a great concept to be implemented in our homeland, right? That will means that all other cards will have to give way to THE card right? Else, we will all keeping this and that cards for paying tolls !!! I am very much looking forward to the day when THE card is the ONLY card I need to keep. In fact, I have since cancelled my autoreload on FASTRAK just to prepare for THE day.

Don't argue, admit that you are not ready for the change, full stop. Tell the wave not to hit the shore, go the other direction instead.:)

Technology wise, no technology is perfect, that is why our technology is ADVANCING. We are trying to make it better. I will have to thank the hackers, because they are the one that helps better the technology. Imagine everyone is happy with what technology we have today and use it without thinking twice, where will we be, maybe still in the stone age (to be on the extreme).

jericho
07-05-2003, 01:55 PM
joejaffar, xweird,

that's where MEPS will fit nicely into the picture. what the government is try to do now is to create another type of MEPS just solely for toll collection!

TnG will collect all the money first and then transfer it to the relevant operators.

CH,

There is a MOTHER of ALL CARD (MAC) on its way. That's the new smart card ID (MyKad). It is capable of hosting multiple applications eg. ID, passport, e-purse, medical record and driving license (of course sometime you have to tell the police this is for real!)

JoeJaffar
07-05-2003, 01:59 PM
Isn't the cost for installing TnG readers will be upon the toll operators whether or not they're allowed to retain their current system? I'm not well-versed in accountancy terms, but I think that current systems are sunk into their initial costs, and they only need to add the TnG readers, which they are required to do anyway.

This TnG-non Plus tolls issue, as with the cars post-AFTA, are still vague. There seems to be no definite conclusion given by the government.

eg.
1) all toll must use TnG, but what about existing electronic tag users?
2) all car prices will remain eventho AFTA means lower duties, but by how much are the sales tax going to be?

My family have a fastrak tag for every car, so what happens after June 1? Money down the drain, or will be reimbursed? The party that is definitely going to benefit from this exercise will be Rangkaian Segar. And possibly Renong and the Gov't. But will the real benefits be felt by the users?

jeffooi
07-05-2003, 02:02 PM
<font size="+1">People,</font>

Echoing on JoeJaffar's post, here's my appeal to all and sundry
out there to pay some respect to the community.

If you have personal grudges, please use the Private Message
(PM) feature in this Forum to communicate.

Please don't throw stones in our community hall. I have to pay for
the furniture and apologise to the annoyed guests.

We have taken note of the one who cast the first stone. It
borders on harassment.

Lest you forget, this thread is:

<font size="+1">Non-PLUS toll operators propose alternative collection system with MEPS</font>

Please leave this discussion on focus.

If you disagree, always <strike>fell</strike> feel free to start and lead one
elsewhere in this Forum.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 02:10 PM
wah... i didnt realise there were so many posts! just walked off for a coffee and walked back.

anyway, i heard that samy vellu is going to issue a statement making it certain that all toll operators accept touch n go as payment.

anybody can verify?


///Ej

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 02:22 PM
joejaffar : you're right, there are a lot of things that need ironing out that unfortunately, i don't think were given much thought to.

for one, before you implement a system you think of it's long term benefits, and when you apply it you keep it in place.

the constant upgrades malaysians face with a variety of things - from roads to toll payment systems, to ICs, makes me wonder what kind of planning was put to it. these things should be long term, not introduced for 4 years and scrapped when a better deal comes our way.

other than the losing party, it is the consumer that pays for wasted money and wasted time.

///Ej

jericho
07-05-2003, 02:27 PM
ej,

I think you don't really know what you are talking about as far as the TnG system is concerned.

for a start, the TnG card is exactly similar to an e-purse (eg. MEPS e-Cash or BankCard) where it contain electronic purse with preloaded value on it. And I have already explain that there is no such thing as permanently link between your banking account and the e-purse. maybe the only time there is a linkage between them is when you want to top up the the value of the e-purse.

Any transaction done on the e-purse is through offline just like TnG. e-purse it is just merely another electronic cash card like TnG.

Now how can you accept TnG but objected strongly against the MEPS e-Cash or BankCard ?

CH
07-05-2003, 02:29 PM
Mother of all card or father of all card, does not matter. What matters is that it will help us. Do you think that when Octopus first introduced, there have no objections?

There are always growing pains, teething problem. But when the dust sets, please look back.

The deposits, who gets the most share, the commissions, the ever increasing toll rates, it is all human nature - greed. But you cannot deny that with a single card, life is easier and simpler.

I am not agreeable with what Rangkaian Segar is doing, that disabling auto reload feature, charging high commission rate and etc. By all means, complaint until they listen and do something. But consolidating all toll payment system into one, the act itself is worth supporting.

Just imagine this analogy. You bought a cake back home, your two kids ask for a piece, you give to each of them one slice, and the younger one is complaining that the elder one gets a bigger slice, what do you think? What is playing in your mind when you hear them complaining that? Or you bought a chicken and you have 3 kids, two of them gets a drumstick each, and the third one complaint why he did not get a drumstick, what is in your mind now?

In fact, all toll gates at Plus lanes are TnG enabled. Damansara Toll for example, every gate you go to, you can touch your card and go, without touching the lady's hand. Just that there are lanes "dedicated" for TnG users, or SmartTag users. It may be useful if PLUS will indicated that all their lanes are TnG enabled, than we can save some trouble queue at the shorter lane.

jericho
07-05-2003, 02:41 PM
CH,

To your delight, the TnG Auto Reload is back not long ago.

A few years back, one of my friend TnG card with auto reload function debited extra RM400 from his credit card. And this poor friend of mine has to wait for 3 months to get his refund!

I never trust auto reload or auto payment especially with credit card. Just imagine if for once there is a discrepancy with extra RM2000 billed into your Tenaga or Telekom bill and you have a credit card auto payment on it.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 02:56 PM
jericho: ummm... maybe you could try to phrase things in a less inconspicuos manner like "are you sure you're talking about the same thing" instead of "i really don't think you know what you're talking about"?

just for posterity, i have been a customer of touch n go for the past few odd years, using it from paying for LRT to cityliner busses as well as my toll fares. i pretty much know what a touch 'n go card is, and how to use it, what system they use, how to top up, etc. in fact i'm all out to get a new one for myself after as a happy customer, i decided to pass mine on to my dad when i left the country.

i do not see myself being a customer of MEPS because if you noticed from what i wrote, i was against there being yet another form of payment method. i just don't feel like having more money tied elsewhere, and lining my wallet with yet another plastic card. simple point. my grouse is the same as a lot of other consumers out there, that if we can keep the existing touch n go cards, why do we want to add yet another payment system.

i am not against MEPS itself, though the fact that MEPS's cash cards have not taken off as anticipated makes me wary as to whether i want to put my money with them. where your money is at stake, you cannot be too cautious especially where reputation is concerned.

just because i agree with one and not the other does not mean i dont know what it's all about. although they are in essential the same thing, i have my preferences as to what i can and want to buy, as do a lot of ppl. it is a personal choice - i may prefer the designs on the card, or the customer service, etc. etc.

just because i have a personal preference does not mean i am not aware of the services each offer. please *respect* that.

it's just like saying "i prefer visa to mastercard" and having someone tell you "well you don't know what you're talking about, they're all credit cards". heh.

///Ej

satish
07-05-2003, 03:02 PM
Jericho,
U forgot to mention that the auto reload was only for certain credit cards issued by not main stay banks?

Also if u lose yr card when some thief breaks into yr car, u lose all
the balance money in it..?

I m trying to advocate more varied smart cards that can be used at all toll gates. This way..more "pockets" can get lined, nn we do not have to kowtow to one card company..!
All it needs is SOFTWARE to get it all done..not hardware..!

3 sens now..
ps..i m in possesion of TnG nn Fastrack hardware..

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 03:07 PM
auto reloads are a very dangerous thing. some ppl set their auto reload function for every month, regardless on usage, and when the card goes missing like what you said satish, a whole lot of cash goes out the drain.

not only that, but if you're faced with difficulties cancelling the auto reload, you still foot the loss if the card is gone.

and touch 'n go is known to take ages to refund money... i had a friend who waited 3 months for his cheque to arrive- it wasn't a big sum, just maybe RM200 or so. but i can imagine if it was a big amount.

i would prefer on my end to reload as and when necessary... not tie any cards to my bank account in anyway. and preferably i'd keep the value in the touch n go card to below RM150 in case it gets lost.

///Ej

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 03:17 PM
speaking of cards and transport, i noticed the LRT cards have a major security defect in them. (i've tried it a few times)

i'm not advocating stealing in any way, but this is a major defect with the putra lrt system- not sure if they've fixed it.

if you buy a RM10 (or more) card from Putra LRT, you can run negative amounts on it.

so let's say you've used the card for quite a while, and now have RM0.20 left in your card. you go from taman paramount to masjid jamek for RM1.70. nothing happens when you go through the other side.... credit is RM0.00 . it just can't read negative numbers! you save RM1.50.

you buy another card, do it again.

so if you save RM1.50 on one card, if you buy 100... well that's a lot of money saved, and a lot of money lost on putra lrt's side.

i wonder if they've fixed this bug yet...

so you see my point, malaysia needs help with security issues as such. makes ppl like me wonder whether they rigorously tested things, or whether it's just implemented for the sake of it.

///ej

saml
07-05-2003, 03:18 PM
The problem with all the operators is that each of them want to go their own way and when they are asked to streamline their operations, none of them are complatible with each other. As usual, the operator with the most muscle will get their way and the others will have to toe the line or run the risk of losing their business. At then end the prospect of losing their pie will put the fear of god in them and they will accept it unless they can come up with some scheme whereby they will get an exemption. Just like what happened to the consolidation of the banks. Initially there were six, then it became 10. Now there is more, i think. Are those that are called Bank Mualamat, banks? I am not sure.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 03:26 PM
actually saml, consolidation/mergers of banks is actually a completely different and separate issue- in an economy running into grave difficulties, banks are always the first to be merged in order to gain efficiency, pool resources, as well as lower labour and management costs .

apart from anything when banks merge the pooled funds would enable wider investment measures to prop up the economy and hopefully lower interest rates (if desired by the central bank)

usually banks merge with smaller banks that are unable to sustain themselves, who are at times on the verge of collapse - small fish are always the first to go in any economy.

japan is another such country (as well as hong kong) that exercised very strong mergers and consolidation exercises following the 1997 crash.

not quite the same as products... money is one currency that is compatible throughout.

but i do see your point saml. on this end i think that it would have been good if the government had sat down, streamlined those who run tolls in the country, and come up with a standardised method of payment. somehow their inability to sort these problems in an efficient and suitable manner draws criticism and really makes ppl think twice as to whether the country is better managed - or whether it's just a matter of the business going to the big guns. who are those who lose out? the consumers.

///Ej

jericho
07-05-2003, 03:46 PM
ej,

i thought one of the strong main reason on your reservation of the MEPS as an alternative to TnG card is the issue of discomfort feeling of tying the card with bank account. you mentioned it not long ago that it is the main reason you are sticking with TnG and not any other form of card.

and that's why i explain the similarity between MEPS e-cash and TnG to you.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Blood's rule no 4 - Write each entry as if it could not be changed; add to, but do not rewrite or delete, any entry.:eek:

saml
07-05-2003, 03:46 PM
ej, I beg to differ on your assertation that the small banks are always the ones that get into trouble. If some of you can still recall, philoe allied bank that was run by tong kooi onn was one of the most it saavy and progressive bank in the market and it was one of the better ones and it was making money. Similarly for Hock Hua bank, a east malaysian bank, it was also a profitable bank. The bank consolidation exercise was one whereby the people with the stronger links could maintain their independence ala bank utama taking over rhb so my drawing a parallel with the toll operators are not entirely off the mark. That is how business is conducted in malaysia.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 03:51 PM
saml - i thought hock hua bank was swallowed up by public bank, and maybank acquired phileo?

actually, i'm very sure hock hua bank was merged with public bank in 2000. in that exercise they issued PB 721 million shares, increasing PB's stake in hock hua to 85%, making them the principal owner. public bank then made a general offering for the remaining shares.

phileo btw was taken over by maybank... their commercial banking as well as securities divisions. i'm not quite sure about the details of that one.

hence they merged, small guys got swallowed.

///Ej

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 03:58 PM
jericho, if you read my post carefully, i said, that since it was not clear whether the MEPS service would encompass tying it to the bank account, or whether it would just be cash card service, or both, i would argue for both sides, which i did.

anyway that is so long ago, i dont see the relevance now.... the topic has moved on so far from there.

///ej

CH
07-05-2003, 04:00 PM
I hold TnG card since 1998.

I lost my card once. But, I did not lost any money from the balance in the lost card.

Why? Because I take the hassle and go to the Rangkaian Segar office in Old Klang Road and request for a new card. While I were there, the officer merely check for the card details - I keep the serial number of the card at home - and confirmed the details, than transfer the balance from the lost card to a new card. All within 20 minutes I with them. I didn't even need to pay the deposit for the new card.

Moral?

1. Keep a record 0f the serial number of the cards you hold - they are the key for you to recover or at least secure a transfer when you lost the card. Even though now they can trace too via your name, but serial number will be a faster and more accurate.

2. Take the trouble to visit them in the office. You have lost the card, you will have to take the trouble to cover your lost. By visit them in person, you can get a lot of things done within the time you visit them, instead of waiting for 2 - 3 weeks and get fras.

3. Be careful with your cards. They carries your hard earn money and you do not want to lost them.

In sum, take care of the details. If you think you cannot record the serial numbers, keep the receipt for the card, in a seperated file or container or drawer or whatever as long as it is designated for keeping these things and you know where to look for it when you need it.

Than you will not lost the RM 200 or more or less when you lost the card.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 04:01 PM
i didn't know that CH... is that a well publicised fact?

i think they should make it more known, it certainly is a good selling point.

always like it when customer service is one up!

///Ej

xweird
07-05-2003, 04:07 PM
Kudos to CH for your comments. So often we have been so reliant on other people to initiate things, but we tend to forget that we play an important role in carrying out our responsibilities too. If we, out of our own negligence or carelessness, lost our own things, it is only naturally our own obligation to seek rectification and to ensure that we can safeguard whatever we have lost.

CH
07-05-2003, 04:07 PM
They did not mentioned it anywhere.

I just called them up and ask whether is there anyway I can recover my unused amount on the lost card and they said, please come to our office and I will see to help you out ...

Another moral here, if you are not sure, please ask.

I hold to that principle and I save quite a lot of money on purchases I make thru the Internet, but that is another story.

empress_julz
07-05-2003, 04:09 PM
yes xweird, CH did a good thing and it is an example for all to follow.

unfortunately i think that a lot of these companies do not publicise refund policies, because if there is a possibility you will buy a new card, they earn more.

but on the consumer side of things we have to start to get more aware of what we are entitled to get back.

///Ej

jericho
07-05-2003, 05:22 PM
I remember reading an official reply from Rangkaian Segar Sdn Bhd (RSSB) in a local daily about this refund issue. It did mentione about the ability of refunding the unsed balance if the serial no is available.

But under the TnG card term and condition, it is stated cleary that
1 The Cardholder is solely and fully liable for the loss, theft or unauthorized use of the Card.
2 RSSB shall not refund any deposit or the remaining balance on the lost, stolen or fraud Card. (http://www.touchngo.com.my/term&con.htm)

I believe there was a change of heart in RSSB then because this refund issue was a hot topic in local dailies.

CH
07-05-2003, 05:30 PM
I am fully agree on 1. as the card is issued to you and you cannot blame other people if you lost the card.

For 2. I would say it can be bended. I am not asking for a refund, but requesting for a replacement card and transfer unused balance to the new card.

And how about the card become faulty, cannot be read, etc.? A request to transfer the balance to a new card shall be entertained as the customer did not cancel his / her account and thus, no loses to the company ...;)

jeffooi
27-05-2003, 06:54 PM
THE STAR
Tuesday, May 27, 2003

<FONT SIZE="+1">Government firm on June 1 deadline for Touch 'n Go</FONT>

PETALING JAYA: The Government is standing firm on its decision that all highway concessionaires must use the Touch n Go electronic toll payment system from Sunday and those not using it will have to collect the tolls by hand.

Works Minister Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu said the Government would be de-gazetting the other electronic toll collection cards and the concessionaires would not be allowed to use them.

[...]
Samy Vellu said the Government had decided on the single electronic toll payment card to ensure that road users were not burdened with numerous cards.

"If we didnt have this system, then if we had 55 highways, the motorists would have to carry 55 cards. We dont want this to happen," he said. He said the Government had given ample notices and also two extensions to the concessionaires to comply with the directive, which was issued in 1998.

[...]
Samy Vellu said those holding other cards could either get reimbursement for the balance on their cards or credit it to the Touch n Go card.

FULL STORY:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/5/27/latest/12151Government&sec=latest

jsu
28-05-2003, 08:34 AM
When we lose our money, we don't get refunds, do we?

Please don't throw rotten eggs at me :cool:

joker2107
28-05-2003, 08:35 AM
If we didnt have this system, then if we had 55 highways, the motorists would have to carry 55 cards. We dont want this to happen :confused:
but samy well,loo, isn't that exactly what u had been allowing? r u admitting in other words that u hv been stupid n irresponsible all the while? u have created a pot if feaces and now u r worried that others will follow ur footsteps. how noble ur tots. :D :rolleyes::D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

lord
28-05-2003, 09:01 AM
Joker.

Samy vellu: stupid? yes. Irresponsible? err.. I dunno!

CH
28-05-2003, 09:48 AM
UPDATE.

Recently I went to Rangkaian Segar (RS) office to reload my card because I was in the area, and I have take the opportunity to ask the staff there about the replacement policy. The answer as below.

Touch and Go card is a cash card, and once it is leaving the sales point, there is no way that the system can revoke the amount of cash loaded in the card, except the card is presented again at the sales counter.

Which means, if you lost your card, you lost your money. RS cannot revoke the card and reload the balance to another card, though thru their system, they will be able to tell you, how much is the balance in the card.

In my earlier case, I was told that the lost card is still operational which means, whoever pick up my card, will still be able to utilize the balance in the card (that was RM 60++). Also it means whoever that wants to abuse RS, then they can load a card with RM 500, used RM 100, report lost, get RM 400 back, and continue to use the card until it finished. I think that is why they stop doing so.

Now, RS has stop from providing a replacement card for lost cards. You lost your card, you lost your money. Full stop. You will need to purchase a new card and reload in order to continue using the facility.

Very INTERESTING.

CH
28-05-2003, 09:52 AM
Just want to add one more point, the above is not true with touch and go card built into a credit card.

It can be revoked, replaced, etc. Bottomline, it is a credit card with touch and go facility. Not the other way around.

hishalis
28-05-2003, 10:04 AM
hmm Just wondering can i get my refund after I return my FASTRAK?