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tupai
12-03-2003, 06:58 PM
Is it true that new primary student in popular chinese schools or even any 'in-demand'Chinese school in say, PJ, needs to pay 'under table money?' A kind of 'forced' contribution to whose pockets? The school principal's ? The administrators? the PTA, the Building expansion plan funds?

Is this allegation true Or is the Chinese community too afraid to bring this allegation to the front?

If this allegation is true, how do we set a trap (with ACA, perhaps) to bring this shameful act of corruption & extortion to a stop?



Tupai.

ng
13-03-2003, 12:43 AM
I heard that this is truly the case.

Blame it on the excessive demand for chinese schools and the very limited seats available.

If the supply of good chinese schools increases, then this "under table" money will disappear.

cpchin
13-03-2003, 12:53 AM
Are you guys sure or not, Chinese school take 'Under Table' monies.

Which particular Chinese school you have in mind. Get some solid evidence, if you have, and put them to justice.

Don't just hear say only, and if the information is wrong, you can really put innocent people into big troubles.

Find out the real pictures before you comment or if you are not happy, work on it and investigate to convince others you are right.

tupai
13-03-2003, 11:42 AM
Like I have mentioned.. Its a hearsay (about PJ Chinese Schools) from my friend. He is too chicken to create an issue and paid RM1,000 for his son's admission last year.

My firstborn will, hopefully, be going to a Chinese School in SJ in 2004. So i wouldn't know if this allegation applies to ALL Chinese school. I will have to wait and see if I get solicited to secure a primary 1 place for my son.

I know,for a fact, that the school my son is registered (entry confirmation only by Aug 2003) has some 800 new registrations but only 600+ vacancies for P1.

This Chinese school is barely 1km from my house (own property) so I will wait and see...

I agree.Unconfirmed hearsay/rumour can only do untold damages to the innocent party/ies...I am merely preparing myself to face this so called 'under table' $$$ situ. And I am also prepared to stand up and be counted to correct any wrong doings...I only hope that most parents are NOT like my chicken friend! He is still my friend but I still called him Chicken in his face!

Tupai.
P/s Shortage of Chinese school is a polical issue. Bribery/corruption is a moral and society issue. I am no angel but corruption goats me!

cpchin
13-03-2003, 03:08 PM
If your friend has paid RM1,000.00 to that subject school, he / she should be given an official receipt. Study the contents of the receipt and see what it is. He has the right to say 'No'. Do not just pay blindly.

For your information there are 2 more Chinese School in USJ vicinity, namely
SJK (C) Tun Tan Cheng Lock ( Sekolah Wawasan) located in USJ 15 and SJK(C)
Chee Wen located in USJ 1 ( Schedule to open in Mid 2003.

Since your son will be going to Chinese school in 2004 , I believe you must have registered in either one of the three Chinese school in SJ.

If your child happen to be registered in SJK (C) TTCL, I may be able to assist you to check his / her registration as I am one of the PIBG committee member.
This assistance is absolutely free , of course.

Sometime we may have to pay some contributions to school such as PIBG contribution, extra tuition, extra curricular activities, etc...... All these contributions are only small amount of monies, like RM30 to RM50, ad they are absolutely for the students' welfare in school.

One thing you must also know, most of the Chinese School in our country are built based on donations and contributions except Sekolah Wawasan
which is fully financed by The Government as it is the brainchild of The Government.

The school's teachers' salary are paid by government and each school is given certain amount of allowance depending on the number of students.

Try to get yourself involved more in the school activities, talk to the PIBG and HM if you have any doubts, you will then understand more the difficulties in running a school.

PIBG members and HM are mostly approchable and friendly people.

tupai
13-03-2003, 03:33 PM
Mr Chin

Thank you for the assuring words. I fully understand the situation and fundings of the Chinese schools in our beloved country. I have and is still doing my part in for e.g. making donations (with official receipts) to Chinese school needs.

My friend is guilty as charged. He took the easy and corrupted way out...he was not issued a receipt...I will let this sleepingdog lie as my friend was both chicken and DUMB enuff to pay up without creating a racket.

Barring any 'funny' rulings, my child WILL be admitted in 2004, to the registered (in 1999) school. In the unlikely event that we fail to be admitted, I will make it a personal crusade to know the A-Z of why not?? And I will play a part in the PTA...

Tupai a.k.a. Keith Khoo

cpchin
13-03-2003, 04:08 PM
It is good to have active parent like you.

I also hope other parents will follow suit and be actively involved in their children's school activities.

Scrap all the 'Tidak Apa' attitude.

Look forward to good future for our next generation.

JoeJaffar
13-03-2003, 04:30 PM
First of all, I'm not trying to create frictions or anything. But I'm wondering, why do we have 3 different type of schools, i.e. SK, SJKC and SJKT?

ginaphan
13-03-2003, 05:05 PM
why not?

cpchin
13-03-2003, 05:48 PM
The concept of Sekolah Wawasan is to have three schools SK, SJKC & SJKT together headed by three different HM, building blocks,sharing common facilities like canteen, field, Hall, assembly dataran to work on the principle of Economy Of Scale ( Synergy, economically speaking).
Besides, this also encourage and strenthen unity among the three different races in order to harmonise our future society further.

If you want to experience the Concept of Sekolah Wawasan, go to USJ 15, pay them a visit and talk to the HM or PIBG members to make you understand more the concept of unifying education among 3 different races.

uchangeng
13-03-2003, 06:55 PM
When my son was denied enrollment into Lick Hung for the obvious reason : OVER CROWDED, I was told I could try "donation" and may be I could get a place. I asked and was politely admonished by a teacher. Good on her.

The crux of the problem is in the unfair government policy of NOT building enough SRJK (C) in USJ. to meet the increasing demands.

I remember Lee Hwa Beng came around USJ 9, 6 or 7 years ago asking for my signature on his petition to build a new SRJK (C). Two elections later, Chee Wen is still "to be open". Both my sons have to be sent to Sg. Way.

Frankly speaking, Lee Hwa Beng's reputation is now seriously eroded, beyond repair, by his failure to deliver Chee Wen on time as promised. That again, normally, an ADUN like Lee is only given two terms and he well knows that the chances for him to be the 3rd term USJ ADUN in the coming election is remote, so, I have this feeling that there is not much we can expect out of this man. May be MIC can help us this time, Nijar is only in his 1st term and Samy has just became the longest serving MIC president, a record 7 terms!

sfliew
13-03-2003, 10:29 PM
Try to enrolled my son years ago in a SJKC in Subang Jaya, but was told no more place and if could donate RM5000 for school development , may be can get a place. My 2 kids is in SJKC Sg way now. !!!!!!:(

ppleong
14-03-2003, 01:07 AM
To SFLiew, it will be a great idea to transfer your kids to either SRJK (C) Chi Wen or Tun Tan Cheng Lock next year. I passed thru Chi Wen the other day and found that it is indeed a nice and presentable building. It will be ready by the mid of this year. You kids will safe a lot of travelling time.

To be fair, both Chi Wen and TTCL are made possible by YB Lee, the adun for Subang Jaya. We must realised that the building or relocate of Chinese schools is a very long process. Someone must take the first step and implement the transfer or building of Chinese schools. I salute the effort of Lee Hwa Beng, the PIBG of Chi Wen and PIBG of TTCL for the success of the present Chinese schools in Subang/USJ, not forgeting Lick Hung also.

I expect next year intake of std 1 pupils will be
A) Lick Hung - 10 Classes
B) Chi Wen - 6-8 Classes
C) TTCL - 4 Classes.

With this, I hope under table will not be an issue anymore.

joker2107
14-03-2003, 08:36 AM
this may not be the right thread but since joejaffar asked ...

I'm wondering, why do we have 3 different type of schools, i.e. SK, SJKC and SJKT?
the more pertinent question should have been why are there two types of national primary schools - the conventional and the so called smart schools which have a different curriculum? going by the book, residential address is the first and primary criteria for admission to a govt sch. but is this the case with the hot sch like st mary's and seri bintang? the fact remains that only very few, as a percentage, get to enter these sch. now i m looking at 12 yrs forward. the yr one students of today hv just finished their stpm / form 6 (if the edu structure is not changed - again - by then). the battle for limited local u places begins. no prize for guessing who has the advantage and who has the handicap. is it written on the wall that if yr kid is not in a smart sch u should start saving enuf for their tertiary edu in pte inst / overseas? for that matter, for all we do to get that place in a chinese sch, and knowing that the poor kids hv to go thru an additional yr in reform during transition from primary to national type secondary edu, where do they stand in the long run with this malignment? we simply play the keeping up game - send the kid to pte language classes, extra tuition, computer classes. thats all in addition to the art and ballet and swimming and music and martial arts and sunday sch and public library time. what are we trying to make of the kids today? and in the process of stressing them and polishing them for the suicide plunge what do we do unto ourselves if not desserts reversed? theres a price for everything but sometimes we have to ask ourselves is it all worth it? and we ponder too, so what if i do not get it - is it the end of the world or will it create such a perilous handicap or really r there any less stressful cheaper nonpolitical alterantives?

ng
14-03-2003, 05:08 PM
To JoeJaffar's question,

First of all, I'm not trying to create frictions or anything. But I'm wondering, why do we have 3 different type of schools, i.e. SK, SJKC and SJKT?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would also like to ask god
1. why are there different races in the world, negro, mongoloid, caucasoid, arabs etc.
2. why are there different languages in the world,
3. why are there different cultures in the world,
4. why are there different religions in the world.
5. why are there different likes/dislikes in the world.

Why didn't god created everything the same ???

Being educated in the same language and practising the same culture/festivals does NOT guarantee unity and harmony. Look at the indonesian/chinese riot in 1998 and the white/black riot in detroit ! Respect and tolerance towards each other differences is the key to harmony !

Malaysia is a unique country in the world with large minority races.
Malaysia is also different from singapore although they look similar on the surface. So we cannot apply singapore's policies here.

There are other countries in the world that also practise more than one medium of instructions. If I am not mistaken, canada has two medium of instructions, one in english and one in french. That is because, the two biggest ethnic groups are english and french.

pcyeoh
14-03-2003, 06:05 PM
Just for your information, yesterday my friend went to register her kid for the 2004 session and her registration number in 0246. If they have a plan to open only 3 and not 4 (that was what she was told by the school authority) then the Std 1 seat has been 2.15 times oversubscribed assuming there 38 students to a class. Even the 2003 session for Std 1 has 42 pupils on thewaiting list. I remember a year ago there was a great concerted effort to discourage parents from sending or transferring their kids there. This actually lead to the school postponing twice their academic session to mid last year due to poor enrolment. Many who listened to them are now in a fixed as every SJKC schools in this community are "oversubscribed" Lick Hung, Chee Wen and Tun Tan Cheng Lock schools are exemplary schools with good facilities and dedicated people running it. Let us not talk about under table money unless you and I are prepared to work with the ACA to put an end to it.

On a happier note, I passed by Chee Wen School last week and I believe that it is possible for them to open for business according to schedule. I don't understand why people still keep bringing up politics to cloud the whole issue. We should be looking forward to its opening.

xweird
14-03-2003, 06:10 PM
I was not a product of chinese schools. I was a product of national type schools. Hence I may not have had the advantage of superior academic training, hardworking and enthusiastic teachers & management, and peer pressure to keep me on my toes.

But what have I gained? The appreciation of different cultures, races & religions. The acceptance of multilingual conversations during recess.

Most of all, the moderate stance of disciplinary action as compared to chinese schools.

I believe chinese schools are advantageous in a sense it really pushes people to succeed in academia. But I also feel that the rigid discipline and tough workload will eventually tire a primary school kid.

We must ultimately answer the question: are chinese schools DEFINITELY better than ALL national type schools?

RM0.02

tupai
14-03-2003, 07:31 PM
BoyOboy! We do have a couple of hardliners here. My opening this thread was merely to verify an allegation...a mere poser to those who might have had the unpleasant encounter with the corrupted demon...its merely to mentally prepare myself to fight corruption even at the expense of my child's chinese education. Yes, I am prepared to go to the ACA if need be. Yes, I am also prepared to enrol my child in a National school but thats my second choice as I'd then need to send her for Mandarin tuition!

I am also a product of national school. I have and still is having a bunch of BEST friends who are Malays. I am all for moderation, understanding and tolerance.

My child will have more to gain by being multi-lingual. She should not suffer the humiliation of what I went thru when I was in student overseas... a non-Londoner Englishman asked me for directions in Mandarin and ... PLUS a very successful uncle of mine is now taking up Mandarin as he needs to trade with China...It took him 1.5 years to master 2,000 characters.

No, should my child turned out to be an average student, I will still be proud of her as I hope she is TRULY literate & conversant in Mandarin, Malay, English, Hokkien and Cantonese... And I would have given her at the very least, a language skill.
No, I do not need to see strict discipline, mountains of homework and straight As from my child.

National unity, tolerance and patriotism can also be inculcated by the parents AT home. We fly the national flag at home in EVERY National occasion. And my child, with a Mandarin schooling, is still a proud Malaysian who can at the least be a translator to earn her keep...

Many thanks for so many POVs.

Tupai

p/s Anyone knows how the powers-that-be choose the new student intakes? By vincinity of home to school? By sibling in same school? By...??

joker2107
14-03-2003, 07:56 PM
who talking big bucks here? what 1k compared to the grumblings i got today. my friend from cbn wanted to get her std 2 kid moved to the smart seri bintang sch. actually the latter is very near her house, don't know y she actually applied for cbn in the first place.
this is no bluff, honest, swear, go check out the going rate for moves to smart sch at the edu dept yourself.
the application was rejected, she was dejected, she was requested, to have ejected, from her pocket, a 5k budget.:mad: :mad: :mad:

sinleong
16-03-2003, 12:47 AM
To be honest with you, I wish my parents sent me to a chinese school. It's extremely embarassing, being chinese and have to speak to fellow chinese in english. I am also handicapped - not being able to get the job i want simply because I speak no chinese.

Undertable is a Malaysian culture. Unfortunately. There is no written or fast rule about it. It's in our kiasu attitude. We have people who wish to buy the choiciest unit of house in the best location or wanting to get their Proton Waja in 1 month instead of 9. I don't think culture can be changed. I'm sorry, but I think, we Malaysians are all pretty F***** up people.

uchangeng
16-03-2003, 10:11 AM
Let us creat a scenario here, if every citizen of Malaysia speaks and write only Bahasa Malaysia, nothing else, by all intent and purposes, we turn this nation of ours monolingual. Just give yourself 5 minutes of rational thinking, figure out what would happen to our economy, our politicl system and our internaltional acceptance in the eyes globalization.

The answer is we will become a pariah state overnight!

If we fall into the trap of the politikus and make an issue out of this language issue in our education system and brood racial hatred. As an average citizen like you and me, we will evetually end up suffering the gravest of consequance. We have nowhere to go, for we do not have millions stashed up in foreign banks, we are never qualified for PR in a ferign country like some of our politikus do. We were born here, breed here and wish to die here.

Therefore, for one to ask the question of why we need three different types of school is even naive.

ginaphan
16-03-2003, 08:19 PM
I send my kids to SJKC. Do I need to explain why? No.

tupai
09-04-2003, 10:24 PM
Great! My congrats & happiness to you. Its jolly good for those who already have children in chinese school. Maybe u have the luck or the right intro & connection or the right address or the right contributions to enrol your FIRST kid into the school in the FIRST place.

Me? I do not know (nor want to know yet) any politician/powerful pple nor have I lotsa spare money but I am still awaiting the enrolment result for my first born into a SRJC, not 1km from my house, for the first time.

So I am seeking guidance, clarifications or help from the experienced parents about the alleged corruption in paying 'unofficial' enrolment fee.

I didn't get any 'solid' answers but a gentleman did offer to help me in enrolling my kid in the SRJC in USJ. For that , I thank you.

So, back to my initial question: Is there an expert to point me to the right direction in the event that my child fails to get into the SMJC Lick Hung ss19? I will only get to know in August 2003 if my child can get in for 2004.
(Somehow, this is bugging me...as I still do not have the answers to the HOW the power-that-be select the 'qualified' children. Is the selection done by the school committee or it is done by the ministry of Ed people somewhere in KL or wherever? Or is this one of those OSA kinda thingy?)

Those who can't clue me to the right direction, please, please shaddup and not turn this 'appeal for help' into a language or race issue...I don't need to know anything else other than the HOW to get into a chinese school.

Thanks again.

tupai

p/s 1 year from now, I might look back and say what a jackass I was for being so anxious! But until then I simply can't help it...its like when my wife was pregnant...I was half a wreck and gain 10lbs!!

empress_julz
10-04-2003, 12:01 AM
i didn't go to a chinese school.

but both my primary and secondary schools had mandarin classes. we had tamil, japanese and french at one point too.

my mandarin is not bad, though i have to say i cannot communicate one bit with my mainland chinese comrades.

in my school, things were multi racial, a lot more than at chinese schools, i have to say. i hate to say this about my cousins who went to chinese schools..... i've heard a lot of racist comments from them about the indians, malays and even blacks. most of my friends from chinese schools only have chinese friends.

what kind of an education is that?

i got my grade one for SPM, went on for my a levels and am graduating not long from now. my more disciplined friends went on to cambridge and oxford, but the great many of us went on to top notch universities in malaysia and abroad, and landed pretty decent jobs.

if i had a choice, i would send my kids to a national type school. if parents bothered to put in enough effort to disciplining their children, there wouldn't be a problem with them slacking behind in studies.

and tupai is right, so what if they're average students. if they're trying their best, i think they've done their job, and so has the education system. not everybody is an einstein.

but i don't think the solution is to send them to a strict school. teachers that do nothing but hammer in homework do nothing to the child other than make them hate their education even more.

ever noticed how the top scorers for math at SPM level may be the chinese, but the best mathematicians in the world are... the indians. anyone who doesnt believe me can take a look at cambridge's math department. other than the odd chinese and french guy, the majority are indians and armenians.

///Ej

tupai
10-04-2003, 10:11 AM
Mr CPChin

Thank you for your kind words and advice. I will follow your advice and see where it leads.

All the best to you,

tupai

p/s nope, the call wasn't that late. 'Owl' is my middle name :-)

pp/s. I really hope to meet up with u someday...one of USJ.com gatherings perhaps.

xweird
10-04-2003, 11:20 AM
julz:
ever noticed how the top scorers for math at SPM level may be the chinese, but the best mathematicians in the world are... the indians. anyone who doesnt believe me can take a look at cambridge's math department. other than the odd chinese and french guy, the majority are indians and armenians.

you know why ah? coz chinese olwiz looking for $$$, like 2 start business and get r$ch :p:p:p

uchangeng
10-04-2003, 01:57 PM
In todays world, you look for the best lawyer, the best doctor, the best engineer and the least corrupt council president(although you know you never get one). The best of everything.

So, if you send your kids to school, logically, you look for the best school. Apparently, in todays Malaysia, the relatively best of what you can get out of our school system is to send your kids to a Chinese School. Go ahead to debate on this however much you want.

Now, on the ground of racial integration, we are told the best way to integrate our kids of many races is to send them to a National School. Let me says this, whitout fear or favour, the best way for racial integration is to treat all citizens equal in the eyes of political right. It is a noble truth to help the poors, the economically disadvantaged, but, if the government continues to exercise what the politikus call "positive discriminations", there is very little rooms for racial integration.

How to tell my 13-year-old son that he has only less than 30% change of ever entering into a local public university because he is a "bukan bumiputra"? And I am sure, as he grows up, he will ask more questions.

empress_julz
10-04-2003, 05:21 PM
i know a few mathematicians, ppl who publish new discoveries, professors and scientists.

the chinese are very good at repetitive mathematics.... but they are not as capable as the indians, armenians and europeans at coming up with new, groundbreaking ideas.

and these ppl are rich xweird. governments pay them good money for their expertise.

and as for the bumiputra thing, unfair as it may seem to us, look at the US as an example. the blacks don't have much leeway, they never did get the extra push the malays did. they're still at the bottom of the social ladder.

i do think things are "carried away" in malaysia. but there are a lot of fine universities you can send your son to locally without worrying about the bumiputra thing.

for instance, you can get him to study externally via the university of london. it is much cheaper than studying in a local university - and he will be in higher demand because it is internationally recognised.

http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/

private universities in malaysia are in abundance, there's monash, nottingham university, etc. and they are not even expensive... they cost almost the same. better quality students, if you ask me.

why bother with the local unis.

///Ej

joker2107
10-04-2003, 07:16 PM
seems like many sjkc proponents want their kids to be the best when they are grown ups, not merely to have the best (which is too subjective). somethings not quite rite - me humble opinion is that if u r the among the best in ur field, u should be a nutty professor gowned in white ankle length overalls cooped up in labs doing research for the betterment of mankind. research does not deserve the second best. does our dear homeland have the facilities to support such a career path for super smarts? where r all our extreme brains now? or r parents waiting to export their kids even b4 they have started formal schooling?

ej, as for pol, if thats what u r referring to, they have reintroduced it, but with a condition that there must be at least 15 students per class. my daughter is deprived of the opportunite cos in her sjk there r less than 15 chinese each in std 1 and 2
and probably 3 and 4 too).

if i want her to learn chinese, its gonna have to be outside private classes. i m not gonna let social peer pressures descend upon or fragment the fragilities on an 8 yr old so she'll be picking up the bits and pieces of her mother tongue from me and her friends for now.

and at the rate she's progressing academically, i dont see how she shud not get a tertiary edu and qualify as some decent professional in 20 years time.

empress_julz
11-04-2003, 12:45 AM
i loved my extra mandarin classes on saturday. it was so engaging, and brought me away from my formal studies. i was only 6 when i started attending. i was in a national type school.

i don't think that sending a kid to a sjkc should be done solely because the parents want him/her to learn mandarin. there have to be other concrete reasons too.

at the moment, i feel the pressure exerted on students at chinese schools is too great. driving the love for math and other subjects out of school kids is not the best way to make them leaders. they'll go mad before they hit uni years.

from the incessant drilling comes the drop in creativity amongst kids - is it really correct to stem out differences and come up with such a uniform, orderly society from such a young age? i do believe in discipline, but kids are kids.

another aspect as to why sjkc schools may not be the best choice is the fact that their command of english and malay is poor, or at least poorer than that of national type schools.

how do these kids integrate?

these are just sweeping statements. i do know that there are the exceptions to the rule, but they are the exceptions to the rule.

///Ej

cpchin
11-04-2003, 10:39 PM
'SJKC's studens' command of English and Bahasa Malaysia is poor'

You can say that again. This is not at all necessary true now.
My nephew scored A1 for English and Bahasa Malaysia in his SPM , A1 for his Kertas Am in STPM and Second Class Upper for his UM Telecommunication Engineering degree and he is a typical Chinese educated student.
I am not boosting and there are many chinese educated students did well in their universities studies. They won't excel if their langguage proficiency is poor.

He is just an average student, but he put in tremondous amount of effort to achieve his goal. It is all hard work.

I met many English educated parents who send their children to SJKC, who told me that most of them had many embarrass moment, especially when non- Chinese speaks mandarin to them.

They know the importance of Chinese langguage as 20% of world population are Chinese.

Afterall, SJKC students spend only six years in their education to learn Chinese and at the same time they also learn English and Bahasa Malaysia in SJKC.

In the case of my son's Chinese School having 434 students, and the non-Chinese make up of 6% of the total, and the Standard Three student who scored top in the class is a Malay. Now do you see the importance of Chinese langguage.

Chinese is our mother tongue, it is good to spend six years to pick up the langguage which will benefit you for the rest of life.

This explains the increasing demands for SJKC.

empress_julz
11-04-2003, 10:54 PM
i do think that it is possible to do well in english and malay if you're from a chinese school, but i'm not sure whether that is the exception more than the norm.

and although paper qualifications say one thing, written and command of english and bm is another. i know ppl who got A1 on their BM paper who can't speak it for nuts. and getting an A1 in english in malaysia is no big deal. (i'm sure most of us have seen the sample SPM papers)

which is why foreign universities insist prior to admission that one does a general paper with cambridge a levels, or toefl, 1119, etc. the standard of SPM english is a joke.

for one i'm not open to sending my kids one day to a particular race-type school, any race for that matter. i think they are seriously out of date. i do think they should have a broad an education as possible with as many races bonding. on a personal note, i do not appreciate the way in which the majority in chinese schools, being chinese, dominate the centre field. i do not believe in particular racial dominance - in today's world there should be as broad a mix as possible. hence my choice is for something more neutral.

learning an extra language should be encouraged, but if that is the sole reason as to why one should send their kids to a chinese school, i implore you to think a little bit more and consider things in a deeper perspective.

the overall experience of the education should focus on a host of other things, not just the acquisition of an additional language.

you can learn another language with extra classes, or by simply mixing around with ppl. the hokkien and cantonese i speak is picked up solely from family and friends.

learning another language is not all that tough. i've spent some time here in italy picking up on italian, whether it be conversing with the maids, doing workbook exercises, or just reading catalogues. i go out and about on the streets with no problems.

would i need to go to an italian school all over to learn the language? no.

similarly, mahadzir lokman speaks brilliant french. i dont think he went to a french school.

and on the note with regards to why this topic was opened, i too have heard a lot of stories from relatives and friends about chinese teachers asking the students for "donations", "jogathon donations", this and that donations.... i think it is ridiculous. how can an educationist impose that kind of necessity on kids?

but the main reason why i won't send my kids to a chinese school.... the use of fear. i'm against teachers being too strict with kids, walking around the class with a large ruler, cane, shouting about. psychologically this is scarring and painful - i have a cousin who used to wet her pants at night because of fear she did her homework wrong! for god's sake, she's only seven!

kids will be kids, they will grow up one day. but they should have fun learning, and learn to love work - not be petrified out of their wits to finish the 200 odd math sums by the end of the day.

the focus on one's education should be on the whole, as to whether he or she will grow up to be a well rounded citizen, and not his or her paper results.

///ej

humvee
12-04-2003, 05:08 AM
The Malaysian education system as far as language proficiency is concerned is totally screwed up.The standard of English is so poor that the government is scrambling to put it right.For one whole generation of children,this is too late.

The situation is that the average kid is not totally proficient in any one language.This is especially true of the Chinese and/or Indian child.The Chinese kid may be instructed in Malay in school and then converses in broken English or Chinese with their parents at home

This may not be a problem at home in Malaysia but when they get on to the world stage they at a severe disadvantage. The average Malaysian in Canada is proficient in English whereas their educated counterpart from HongKong and China is totallay literate in English and Chinese

One year I wathched a Miss Universe or Miss World competition and the Malaysian representative,a Chinese girl spoke totally bad English Compared say the girl from say Brazil who spoke so fluently in her native language

It is therefore important tha parents ensure that their children are totally proficient in at least one language ,especially English.

uchangeng
12-04-2003, 09:55 AM
Talking about Miss Malaysia speaking bad English. I remember Lina Teoh speaks a perfect English. Are you sure you are not mixing this up with Miss China Town (or Miss Chow Kit)? in which, if the contestant does not speak English at all is not even a surprise. No offence to all pretty faces.

Back in 1984 or so, I witnessed Miss Hong Kong answered questions in real bad English, that was understood, students in Hong Kong speak Cantonese at School, even in their English school!

ng
12-04-2003, 10:25 AM
empress,

First of all, the proficiency level of spoken hokkien/cantonese among the non-chinese educated in malaysia is EXTREMELY poor when compared with people from taiwan/hong kong respectively.

At one time, one non-chinese educated manager tried to speak to me in cantonese but he got all the tones incorrect and there was a lot of broken grammar and he thought he could speak cantonese well ! For all those words that he did not know the chinese words he would use english words instead which is almost 70% of the total words used.

I had to switch to english to avoid my ears from being battered.
I usually converse in english with non-chinese educated malaysian chinese and they got the impression that I cannot speak cantonese/hokkien at all ! However, they do not know the real reason behind my "incompetency".

Your argument is that you can learn to speak cantonese/hokkien from friends/family. Ever heard of the phrase "the blind leading the blind " ? My uneducated mom picked up malay the same way you did, and all she learned were some very basic "pasar" malay.
And the pronounciation is off. Eg. pandai becomes "panai" which is incorporated into the malaysian-type of cantonese/hokkien spoken here.

As for the argument that you can pick up chinese just by some "extra" classes, that was what happened to me when I was educated in an english medium school (before malaysia converted to malay), and I hardly learned anything from him for many reasons. Most are not dedicated to teach well and there isn't a single test given to make sure that the students actually learned the language.

When I saw the chinese primary school level textbooks from my nephew/nieces, they were of much higher proficiency level than that of the secondary school level "extra" classes.

So after a few embarassing moments trying to converse in chinese with people from hong kong, I resolved to learn chinese myself through dictionaries, reading chinese newspapers etc. And after 20 years of learning it, I find that there are still a lot to learn as the chinese language is as old and complicated as the english language.

If you think that your chinese proficiency is of "acceptable" enough level, I can test you if we ever do meet and you may be surprised to learn that you have been saying the wrong things all along.

I have spoken to a lot of malaysian chinese who are chinese educated and found that their level of chinese/english is acceptable. (though not to the level of english in western countries or to the level of chinese in china/taiwan). But the level of chinese for "malay" educated chinese is horrendous and their level of english is only acceptable.

You have every right to send your kids to "neutral" schools, after all, this is a free country ! But other people think differently and it is also their rights.

empress_julz
12-04-2003, 02:08 PM
about bad chinese, sure... my cantonese and hokkien sucks. but if you're implying my relatives speak bad cantonese, hardly - many are from hong kong. but yes, malaysian cantonese is riddled with a stupid accent. i can hear the difference.

hokkien btw is a dying language, and UNESCO is thinking of considering hokkien within china distinct from what you hear abroad because the disparities are growing wider.

but well i've not spoken chinese of any kind in at least 6 years.

as for my picking up of italian, it is really not that difficult. and unlike the way malaysians corrupt languages, italian is quite intact. so there is not much question of deviation.

this manglish/ corruption of languages thing is nothing to be proud of, it has put us in a totally different world from the rest. i despise the way radio djs put manglish on a pedestal as though it is god sent. it is not ! it is foul and crude.

what's the point in learning english if you can't communicate abroad?

yes i've heard many malaysians sound absolutely embarassing on an international level. what a wasted education.

i had a teacher i got into an argument with when i was ten. he said "peahen" was pronounced "pi-hern" instead of "pi-hen", because it is different from "hen". what an idiot! and this guy was teaching english to a bunch of kids. now there are probably 1,000 or so adults going around with the wrong pronounciation of the word "peahen".

even malay is so corrupt, nothing like what it should be. there's all these slangs that come in from god knows where. i tried to read a few personal malay sites from malaysia online, i could not take the chelocial nature of it all. absolutely atrocious command.

the education ministry has messed up our system to the max. they should get some help from abroad, proper professors who are competent in helping out with the english, math, as well as BM.

the education ministry needs a big slap in the face. like what humvee said, they have ruined a whole generation of malaysians' command of language, thanks to their incompetence.

now these ppl can only hope to speak bad english, bad malay, and maybe bad mandarin.

///Ej

tupai
14-04-2003, 05:08 PM
...which is why foreign universities insist prior to admission that one does a general paper with cambridge a levels, or toefl, 1119, etc. the standard of SPM english is a joke...ej
----o0o----
To the kwaiLoh, one Chinaman from WangsaMaju looks the same as the one from WanChai, Warsaw, WestVirginia or Wales :-)

For a good few years, I was a hired-gun English 'testee' in london, i am who-u-pay-me-2b. i AM the mega-buck canto-speaking student. The real Cheng/Cheong/Chan/Chang McCoys are loaded, & they pay BIG in pound sterling...

Need another reason to study another GLOBAL marketable language?

tupai

empress_julz
14-04-2003, 08:21 PM
To the kwaiLoh, one Chinaman from WangsaMaju looks the same as the one from WanChai, Warsaw, WestVirginia or Wales

I guess you could say to the Chinaman, all gwailo look the same whether they be from Mont Kiara, Michigan, Monaco or Munich.

I think the importance in learning the English Language is obvious. Money making things aside...

//Ej