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USJ27Resident
27-05-2010, 05:39 PM
guys - for the past decade or so, I have been burning and keeping most of my pics ( including negatives and scans ) on CDs and then on DVDs and recently to HDDs.

but yesterday I watched a BBC documentary that indicated that these media tends to deteriorate/disintergrate after a few years... worst part is, the documentary also mentioned that even BRANDED discs are subjected deterioration and eventual loss of data. :(

if thats the case - are we risking losing our past/memories, keeping them in this format/media... :(

what are the alternatives... apart from printing hardcopies...

patrick
27-05-2010, 05:47 PM
guys - for the past decade or so, I have been burning and keeping most of my pics ( including negatives and scans ) on CDs and then on DVDs and recently to HDDs.

but yesterday I watched a BBC documentary that indicated that these media tends to deteriorate/disintergrate after a few years... worst part is, the documentary also mentioned that even BRANDED discs are subjected deterioration and eventual loss of data. :(

if thats the case - are we risking losing our past/memories, keeping them in this format/media... :(

what are the alternatives... apart from printing hardcopies...

I learnt from an IT expert that the safest media available now is still pen drive.

currymee
27-05-2010, 05:48 PM
guys - for the past decade or so, I have been burning and keeping most of my pics ( including negatives and scans ) on CDs and then on DVDs and recently to HDDs.

but yesterday I watched a BBC documentary that indicated that these media tends to deteriorate/disintergrate after a few years... worst part is, the documentary also mentioned that even BRANDED discs are subjected deterioration and eventual loss of data. :(

if thats the case - are we risking losing our past/memories, keeping them in this format/media... :(

what are the alternatives... apart from printing hardcopies...

Hardcopies are still the best - I have already lost a hell of a lot of work from the last 6-7 years that were kept on floppy diskettes, magnetic tapes, CD-R - you name it .... and none of them "chokia" ones - all super branded - HP, Iomega, IBM ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

currymee
27-05-2010, 05:51 PM
What I do now - try to keep everything to only 1-2 DVDs - and then make 2-3 copies, and every 2-3 years retest and then make new copies .... esp LHDN tax forms etc .... got to keep for 7 years .... beyond the lifespan of current storage media.

DarkNite
27-05-2010, 06:01 PM
HDD have NOT fail me yet, since 1993. After 4-5 years I just transfer the files to newer HDD.
Now, I'm on my 4th HDD of personal data/photo/movies. It is much more easier to handle and manage than mutiples of CD or DVD. Anyway my data has exceed 1TB.

Firefly
27-05-2010, 06:34 PM
Everything fails me. I am paranoid and I keep multiple copies of everything. It use to be only CD, then those verbatim fail to read. Thankfully I still had them in my HDD. I reburn them into DVD only to have my RAID SCSI HDD died shortly after.

Now I have 1 X 1TB HDD desktop and 1 inside my PC, 4 X 500GB in various different PCs and I carry 2 X 500GB portables. I am PARANOID.

Hiliary
27-05-2010, 09:48 PM
Everything fails me. I am paranoid and I keep multiple copies of everything.

You are not alone :D

DarkNite
28-05-2010, 09:13 AM
I reburn them into DVD only to have my RAID SCSI HDD died shortly after. RAID? 0 or 5? Isn't that already copies - the acronym for redundant array of independent disks.
As far as I can recall, RAID divides and replicate data among multiple hard disk drives thus, ensuring that important data is not lost in case of hardware failure.

azman0123
28-05-2010, 10:02 AM
Learned about this many years back, when we were looking at Disaster Recovery Planning.

All about the advance of technology.

There were the punch cards, magnetic tape, 8" floppy. Then the 5.25" floppy, the Winchester drives (I remember it cost RM1,000 for a ONE Megabyte! Winchester drive, in 1983). Then came all the others in between. Then the CD, DVD, BD, SSD and all the rest that's coming.

Whatever you had stored on punch cards or magnetic tape or the 8" disk, is most likely unreadable now. Why? There's no reader to do it! No hardware, no software. Same thing goes with the others.

I was doing FORTRAN programming on punch cards in the 70's. It's only just been one generation, and whatever was stored in those cards are almost no longer useful. What's the point of storing that for 5,000 years?

With new technology coming out almost every month, you think in 5,000 years, our descendants will be able to work out what to do with silvery disks or finger-sized pieces of plastic.

The only real safe back-up is the hard-copy. If possible print it on stone. At least you can see the raw data, if not the information or knowledge.

If the ancient Egyptians had left thumb drives, or other non-solid state data devices for us, I'm sure we'd still be figuring out what the heck it is. Thank god for hieroglyphs.

bslee
28-05-2010, 10:57 AM
The Glass CD

http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/22/near-perfect-glass-cd-hits-stores-in-akihabara-shibuya-for-831/

Not within our reach yet.

DarkNite
28-05-2010, 11:41 AM
... What's the point of storing that for 5,000 years?

With new technology coming out almost every month, you think in 5,000 years, our descendants will be able to work out what to do with silvery disks or finger-sized pieces of plastic.

The only real safe back-up is the hard-copy. If possible print it on stone. At least you can see the raw data, if not the information or knowledge..
storing that for 5,000 years? That's the extreme and I dun think most of us have the technology and resource to do that, after all we're dun have the hundreds of thousands of slaves that those Pharaohs have. ;)

Whilst to some extent hard-copy is relatively safe as a backup but it is damn cumbersome, laborious and messy!
Believe me I have a room 12'X12' with mountains of boxes of documents, manuals and books.
It is so much easier to catalog, access and manipulate data on the PC.

And as storage technology moves on and becomes convenient for the man-in-the-street, we just migrate all our info and data to it.

fRaNkY
28-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Just saw an adv 1TB for RM299 in The Star. Get two to backup each other! :D

No choice lar... technology obsolete our memories... thumbdrive also can crash... I have one suppose to be lifetime warranty!

Firefly
28-05-2010, 02:15 PM
RAID? 0 or 5? Isn't that already copies - the acronym for redundant array of independent disks.
As far as I can recall, RAID divides and replicate data among multiple hard disk drives thus, ensuring that important data is not lost in case of hardware failure.
Tried 0 and 5. Both have their pros and cons. It was on a 4 HDD scsi, split and mirror. One of them died and the whole thing crashed.

Now, I am having 1 TB mounted inside my desktop casing and 1 portable for mirror. I also carry 2 different 500GB portable for my daily back up. rotating them week by week. So I have a copy of everything. I still periodically burn to DVD and those are then stored in a airtight container.

So I am paranoid.

azman0123
28-05-2010, 03:13 PM
storing that for 5,000 years? That's the extreme and I dun think most of us have the technology and resource to do that, after all we're dun have the hundreds of thousands of slaves that those Pharaohs have. ;)



Sorry, I was thinking more in terms of archiving. Anyway, the pharaohs needed slaves coz they didnt have automation.

Our present civilisation looks like they're storing everything into electronic devices, or some sort of PROM devices. They're practically useless to historians in 500 years, let alone 5,000. When they dig out our history from the ground and discover bits of plastic and metal, what should they do?

Why did NASA send out a hard-copy engraving of ourselves with the Pioneer space-craft? You would have thought that hyper-intelligent alien beings would be able to decipher our greetings if it were put into a solid-state device.

Of the 'modern conveniences', I would think that the LP record (the black vinyl record, that was killed by the CD), and the micro-fiche are the best ways to go. They both dont require much electronics to get to the info stored in them.

USJ27Resident
28-05-2010, 04:29 PM
sheeesh... so my fears does have substance... am not alone in worrying that all my fav pictures and data going POOF! digitally... :eek:

Tong
28-05-2010, 06:57 PM
Thanks for the heads up .. It must be the quality of the CD's produced these days .. I have just checked some of my CD's going back to 1997 and they are OK I also have some 31/2" floppy's from that time and they are OK too but the floppy drive is past its use by date!! So you just prompted me to dump the floppys onto DVD before it dies and hope for the best .. My work requires me to keep data for 10 years .. I think the solid state drives are probley the best suggestion and will be busy copying my disks for the next month or so. The message is not to rely on one method and have backup of your backup backup

Just when you thought it was safe .. :) :)

kwchang
28-05-2010, 09:27 PM
.. I think the solid state drives are probley the best suggestion ...
There is always Murphy's Law.
I had some data and lectures stored in my tiny thumb drive and in one lecture setup, I had the little thumb drive plugged into the PC which was placed on the ground and the thumb drive was sticking out just below knee level.

As I was seated next to the PC, I crossed my legs and kicked the thumb drive off its slot ... and the plastic casing broke, exposing the little circuit board. To my horror, the circuit board was bent due to the force of the sudden kick. As a result, the thumb drive was not accessible ... everything in the chip was still intact but I could not read the data because the circuit board was damaged.

Moral of the story - your data can still be lost, even if you kept it in a thumb drive. Just get paranoid and have multiple copies. However, if your stash is in Terrabytes, how many copies can you make?

Firefly
29-05-2010, 12:11 AM
... However, if your stash is in Terrabytes, how many copies can you make?
That is starting to worry me. So far I have yet to touch the 700GB level. In the next few years, it would..then what?? :confused:

expat1609
29-05-2010, 10:11 AM
from our experience at work, DVDs are self destroying much faster than the good old CDs
what is the best way :confused:

bslee
29-05-2010, 11:00 AM
There's a price to pay for anything, nothing really ultimate nor perfect yet. I still believe a hard copy photograph seems good for now and maybe a couple of generations down the road. Lets not get silly thinking of keeping pics for next few hundred years or into the next millineum.
I still have a rare collection of dad's pictures dated 1935 in my photo album, although I did digitize them for own archive.

USJ27Resident
29-05-2010, 11:57 AM
hahahaa... guess the saying is true (to an extent ) nothing lasts forever... :p

guess we gonna have to copy copies of our memories - from one media to the next - periodically...

Tong
29-05-2010, 11:59 AM
There is always Murphy's Law.


That Murphy is no friend of mine!!! :rolleyes:

Firefly
30-05-2010, 11:59 PM
from our experience at work, DVDs are self destroying much faster than the good old CDs
what is the best way :confused:
Noticed that. If I stick to backing them to 700mb disk, I would need a really huge rack just to hold 700GB of pictures..and sorting through them would also be another problem. :eek:

anitamoh
31-05-2010, 10:28 AM
I recently had a very bad experience with a newly bought portable harddisk. All the while I been storing my digital photos and home videos in my computer HD and burn into 2 copies of DVD for each batch according to date. However I caught the idea of easy to use portable HD and starts transfering those plus some movies and ebooks from my computer into the new 500GB tapi the HD crash with 2 months. Though I will get a one to one replacement for the HD but the data are gone forever.
So now I am reverting back to DVD, I'll burn 3 copies (first, 2nd and 3rd backup) into DVDs of different brands. Something like putting eggs into separate baskets. Also I think dont waste money on big capacity portable/external HD coz the bigger capacity you have and you'll intend to store more data into it and thus much higher risk.

kwchang
31-05-2010, 10:46 AM
Noticed that. If I stick to backing them to 700mb disk, I would need a really huge rack just to hold 700GB of pictures..and sorting through them would also be another problem. :eek:

I recently had a very bad experience with a newly bought portable harddisk....the HD crash...
I believe the best solution is still a working harddisk which allows you to index for quick search and retrieval (note that Google Desktop is a great free application, especially if you have a huge harddisk ... but needs a bit of extra space for the indexing). Then you back it up to either a 2nd harddisk of similar size OR DVD's for the eventuality of any crashes of the harddisk.

Terrabyte harddisks are getting cheaper ... I don't have one yet but it will be the way to go eventually. If it is a portable harddisk, spend a little bit more and get one that parks the reading head(s) in a safe track when not in use. It is also useful if the harddisk has drop-sensors to protect against data loss when you accidentally drop the device. Of course, if you dropped the harddisk from a height higher than a meter, say goodbye and then pray you can recover something .... that is why you need DVD backups.

kwchang
31-05-2010, 10:53 AM
...I would need a really huge rack just to hold 700GB of pictures...
Of course, one should not just keep everything ... I am also a hobby photographer and I take a lot of shots, especially if the camera can fire off multiple shots on a single press of the shutter button. I normally pick the best to keep and remove all the extras. I also avoid taking RAW because these are really huge pics ... unless one is a pro (and Firefly's passion is in that direction, I know) one should avoid RAW - ask yourself, would you be doing a lot of post-production work? As we get older, I don't think we even have the time to review our millions of shots taken in our lifetime.

bslee
31-05-2010, 11:13 AM
As we get older, I don't think we even have the time to
review our millions of shots taken in our lifetime.

If anyone got this latest set top video decoder box (something like whats been brewing on another thread), playback all your pics on a separate HDD for the purpose on your LCD TV loh!..
Another story about terrabytes getting cheaper... I heard Western Digital factory at Sungei Way is having great times and expanding their manufacturing facilities here. HDD's will get cheaper in future I reckon.

kwchang
31-05-2010, 11:46 AM
I believe the best solution is still a working harddisk which allows you to index for quick search and retrieval (note that Google Desktop is a great free application, especially if you have a huge harddisk ....
Speaking of freeware (legal open source ones la) ... do get Picasa because once you have installed it, it will search out all your photos on yr harddisk and give you a database (automatically) of all the pics in that harddisk..... However, do get ready to be surprised ... if you had been surfing the net for questionable pics ;) , and you had not cleaned the cache, you will find some very embarassing pics in that database, so be pre-warned ... check yr Picasa database before you proudly show it to yr family, HaHaHa... :D :)

bslee
31-05-2010, 11:51 AM
if you had been surfing the net for questionable pics ;) , and you had not cleaned the cache, you will find some very embarassing pics in that database, so be pre-warned ... check yr Picasa database before you proudly show it to yr family, HaHaHa... :D :)

Thats true about some software which memorize that last folder you viewed.
I use a freeware program called Faststone picture viewer and you can change the program to always start at a default directory, that is the root directory. Just don't have questionable pics in your root folder...hahahaha!..

Opppps!.. BLUSHHH!>.. ;) ;)

P.S.. Yes, browse and customize the program options to your liking..its quite neccessary.

DarkNite
31-05-2010, 11:54 AM
If anyone got this latest set top video decoder box (something like whats been brewing on another thread), playback all your pics on a separate HDD for the purpose on your LCD TV loh!..

Or if you can afford, get one of those small 'LCD Photo Display'. Dump in all your digital memories and let the slide show roll.
Sometimes a nostalgic photo pop up and set an avalanche of feelings! ;)

bslee
31-05-2010, 11:57 AM
Those LCD photo displays are still pricy lah!.. I even think the current prices are unrealistic...but then thats why it isn't a popular thing to buy.
Personally. I still think its quite a pleasure the good old way.. Photographs in a nice album book.
Of course, these days just because it costs next to nothing taking digital pics, thats why many have thousands of pics in their collection. Think back of the good old days of film camera, 12, 24 and 36 pic rolls. Anyone would only capture most memorable moments, not snapping away like no tomorrow...

AllUrban
31-05-2010, 12:55 PM
hahahaa... guess the saying is true (to an extent ) nothing lasts forever... :p

guess we gonna have to copy copies of our memories - from one media to the next - periodically...what about online storage? Im sure that cloud computing is going to become a big thing soon, and the amount of available online storage is going to be huge.

Strangely enough, this issue doesnt affect me - I havent even come close to filling up by 60GB disk drive in my laptop, and my new HandyCam is actually 80 GB! (25 % more than my computer - imagine that)...

I honestly could not imagine keeping that many items in storage and needing that much memory .... 10 years ago when I bought my first 256MB disk drive ...

Cheers, m

kwchang
31-05-2010, 01:29 PM
what about online storage?..
In the world of instant access and also privacy, I doubt very much cloud computing will appeal. Furthermore, unless one have fast online connection anytime of the day, this isn't going to work out. We are talking about storing Gigabytes of data, if not Terrabytes ... tell me, which depository is going to give that space to you at a lucrative rate? We all want it for the price of a terrabyte HDD ... and at the rate prices go, online storage will get too expensive by comparison. And each access of video/photo/audio is in terms of megabytes .... none of us here will be willing to wait even 5 minutes for a download (it is many times slower for upload). Ahhh....the fibre broadband ought to be great for this but then one day, TM cap the bandwidth ... how?

Stan
31-05-2010, 02:21 PM
In this day of digital technology it is easy to be overly dependent on it. Nowadays, with digital cameras it is easy to just click away which means we now take more pictures than ever of any event. However, only a handful areimportant records of the memories you want. A lot of the others are 'fringe' images that will not matter much down te road.

For these importan memories, I still think it is important to rely on good old fashioned technolgy - the printed photo. Nowdays, photo lab paper is touted to lat 99 years.

Whatever digitla format we use now, I dont think any of them will still be around in 10 years time, let alone 50 or 100 years. Hard drives, flash, DVDs may be gone in a few years when newer technology replaces them.

Remember 5 1/4 in floppy disc, the 3 1/2 inch discs...CDs are also going hte way of dinosaurs. Who knows how long hard discs and flash memories will last.

ALso, reminiscing old memories on the computer, TV or LCD picture frames will never beat flipping through an old photo album.

fRaNkY
31-05-2010, 05:17 PM
what about online storage? Im sure that cloud computing is going to become a big thing soon, and the amount of available online storage is going to be huge.

Strangely enough, this issue doesnt affect me - I havent even come close to filling up by 60GB disk drive in my laptop, and my new HandyCam is actually 80 GB! (25 % more than my computer - imagine that)...

I honestly could not imagine keeping that many items in storage and needing that much memory .... 10 years ago when I bought my first 256MB disk drive ...

Cheers, m

Wait till you have kids!

fRaNkY
31-05-2010, 05:19 PM
Of course, one should not just keep everything ... I am also a hobby photographer and I take a lot of shots, especially if the camera can fire off multiple shots on a single press of the shutter button. I normally pick the best to keep and remove all the extras. I also avoid taking RAW because these are really huge pics ... unless one is a pro (and Firefly's passion is in that direction, I know) one should avoid RAW - ask yourself, would you be doing a lot of post-production work? As we get older, I don't think we even have the time to review our millions of shots taken in our lifetime.

Ha! now you admit taking photographs... how about sharing some of your works with us? :D