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Jey
06-01-2010, 10:14 PM
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48697-home-ministry-to-allow-protests-against-allah-ruling-

Isnt this just "nice"? Why would they want to allow a protest on an issue so blown out of proportions? What is the intent? :D

Jey
06-01-2010, 10:17 PM
Why allow if you know its a security threat?


“There is a balance that needs to be addressed. We (the Home Ministry) have faced this situation before. Right now, if you do not allow the protest, it will cause a lot of emotional reaction. But if you also allow it, it might turn into a security threat,” explained Hishammuddin.

The Home Minister asserted that the core issue was the issue of safety of the country, and that the group had already been advised against the protest.

umadavid
06-01-2010, 10:20 PM
And the whole world will come to know that some section of people in Malaysia do not know the difference between language and religion.

Jey
06-01-2010, 10:22 PM
How about allowing Hindraf protests for the same reasonings? :eek: :confused:

isarahim
06-01-2010, 10:27 PM
Surah 29, Ayat 46
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow."

No need to say anything more.

StonTemplePilot
06-01-2010, 10:29 PM
How about allowing Hindraf protests for the same reasonings? :eek: :confused:

We all know that that will get a diffferent response...let's just leave it at that. They will be JUDGED one day

bugbear
06-01-2010, 10:56 PM
I knew it and I am prepared for this judgment. Too much pressure on the poor judge. Remember, whoever remove anything from the Bible will have their life remove from them too. Enough said. I will leave this matter to God for His divine judgment.

ivanhow
06-01-2010, 11:58 PM
What does it mean?
To allow people to hold a street demonstrate against a High Court ruling?

So, in future, whenever a certain group does not like a ruling by the courts, they could hold a demonstration or a street protest?

Can there be another group to counter protest against the demonstrations against the court rulings, just like the Anti-Protests against the ISA?

USJ27Resident
07-01-2010, 12:47 AM
Why allow if you know its a security threat?

just goes to show the mentality of the Home Minister :o .... I thought the previous one was bad... now we're stuck with this fella,.... hopeless! :mad:

sheeeeeesh!!!!

zinglicious
07-01-2010, 03:16 AM
I dont think God would mind if I call him Super Hero or Amazing Hero if and when I pray to him. It is useless to invoke his name when my heart is not sincere and my prayers are not done with the right mind. :) :cool: :)

zinglicious
07-01-2010, 03:51 AM
Now we are in the world spotlight for the wrong reasons - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704842604574641654054959272.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

USJ27Resident
07-01-2010, 08:48 AM
Now we are in the world spotlight for the wrong reasons - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704842604574641654054959272.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

What do you mean "now".... no thanks to those "yiddiots!-yin-yoffice", we've always been in the SPOTLIGHT.... for ALL the wrong reasons..... then again, we can always blame 1REASON instead of the 1MALAYSIA concept...

bugbear
07-01-2010, 08:56 AM
Please read this article http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2010/01/allah-and-tuhan-in-bible-translation/ posted here. It will enlighten you a whole lot.

hezron
07-01-2010, 10:53 AM
What does it mean?
To allow people to hold a street demonstrate against a High Court ruling?

So, in future, whenever a certain group does not like a ruling by the courts, they could hold a demonstration or a street protest?

Can there be another group to counter protest against the demonstrations against the court rulings, just like the Anti-Protests against the ISA?

double standard is 1Malaysia culture... :D

jimmyay
07-01-2010, 11:13 AM
extract from WALL STREET JOURNAL

Prime Minister Najib Razak called the A-word controversy a "sensitive issue" Sunday. But by allowing his party to continue curtailing freedom of speech, he is only stirring tensions. What a disappointment for a man who ran for office promising to create "One Malaysia."

usehead
07-01-2010, 01:02 PM
I like our MB in Selangor. He is the best leader, really. His stand is sensible, fair, clear and intelligent.

Sad that there are people who are not working on really important issues; but only politicising around.

isarahim
07-01-2010, 01:25 PM
I like our MB in Selangor. He is the best leader, really. His stand is sensible, fair, clear and intelligent.
I agree on that. Khalid rocks!!!!

bobkee
07-01-2010, 01:47 PM
extract from WALL STREET JOURNAL

Prime Minister Najib Razak called the A-word controversy a "sensitive issue" Sunday. But by allowing his party to continue curtailing freedom of speech, he is only stirring tensions. What a disappointment for a man who ran for office promising to create "One Malaysia."A lot of A-words are sensitive to the man .. I tend to remember only one main one .. Alt.......ya :D

firefox
07-01-2010, 03:10 PM
Najib: We can't stop people from protesting.
Anwar tells supporters not to join protests

Here our PM say its okay to protest after Fridays prayers.

The future PM says its not okay.

What is your say?

mick123
07-01-2010, 03:17 PM
Here our PM say its okay to protest after Fridays prayers.

The future PM says its not okay.

What is your say?


it depends on which camp you are in that particular point in time.......right now, if you are from the opposition side, then better don't protest lah otherwise you could be ISAed. on the other hand, if you are from the ruling side, then you could be emotionally disturbed if you don't join in to protest :rolleyes:

Jey
07-01-2010, 06:25 PM
look at the latest.... http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48805-now-hishammuddin-says-it-is-up-to-cops-to-decide

hahaha... what a cow-head mentality! :eek: :D

19resident
07-01-2010, 06:59 PM
thank you isarahim for sharing ur koran part - 'your allah is my allah', just like for the call for 1malaysia - and therefore '1 allah' only, to start sharing with. Or could it be that for bumi they still require the stake of 80% or more!

currymee
08-01-2010, 07:41 AM
OMG :eek: - has Malaysia degenerated into religious chaos?

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/8/nation/5435794&sec=nation

http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29463:malaysia-church-torched-amid-allah-row&catid=21:special-reports&Itemid=100135

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

News is confirmed even in The Star :(

QuietStorm
08-01-2010, 07:55 AM
OMG! :eek: Be scared. Be very scared.


OMG :eek: - has Malaysia degenerated into religious chaos? Is this true? I cannot confirm it through any other reports online.

http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29463:malaysia-church-torched-amid-allah-row&catid=21:special-reports&Itemid=100135

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

isarahim
08-01-2010, 08:19 AM
Here our PM say its okay to protest after Fridays prayers
Even more disheartening, the topic of protest is actually anti-Quranic, as per the Ayah referred above.

silver_bird
08-01-2010, 08:31 AM
Re-direct "KL Church Torched" to this link :-
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=29160

firefox
08-01-2010, 08:35 AM
But then Isarahim, this is no more a religious issue anymore its become a political one even the unmo govt supports all this and with this blessing a church was torched.

How is this all going to end?..only the Cathoilc Bishop can end all this for the sake of some sanity in this country.

The whole gist of this issue is to unite all the Malays.

Jeyanthy
08-01-2010, 10:47 AM
Interesting article here on who how the word "Allah" actually came about? Historical evidence are incredible.

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29446:who-owns-qallahq-&catid=18:letterssurat&Itemid=100129

kuma
08-01-2010, 11:08 AM
OMG! :eek: Be scared. Be very scared.

I disagree!

If it happens at midnight and is reported in MSM by morning, than it is something someone wants us to know about....so nothing to fear :D ....its all under control...or shall I say 'controlled' :)

darylchan
08-01-2010, 11:42 AM
on the contrary, none of us should be scared. just stop the fighting and stand up for unity.

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 11:54 AM
I agree on that. Khalid rocks!!!!just wish he would stand up more for Selangor...especially in the next few weeks & months when BN mounts their attack.

Cheers, m

bugbear
08-01-2010, 12:16 PM
I disagree!

If it happens at midnight and is reported in MSM by morning, than it is something someone wants us to know about....so nothing to fear :D ....its all under control...or shall I say 'controlled' :)
Totally agreed with you kuma. I do not know about you out there but to me I will never be cowed into submission when faced with the prospect of violence and bodily harm. We as christian will not retaliate in the face of such provocation because Jesus is against it. What Christian must do is to pray. Our church will be organising a prayer session at noon today and i hope that all Christian out there will do the same.

zinglicious
08-01-2010, 12:24 PM
It is just too bad that the situation came into this. Right into where some politicians wanted it to dance to the tune of "Wag the Dog" after the Cow Head incident failed to acheive to deflect the many issues which are confronting Malaysians. :mad: :mad: :mad:

bugbear
08-01-2010, 12:55 PM
Interesting article here on who how the word "Allah" actually came about? Historical evidence are incredible.

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29446:who-owns-qallahq-&catid=18:letterssurat&Itemid=100129
Wow, blow me away. Do you mean that historically, Allah is actually in reference to the Hindu Goddess Durga (the moon goddess). :eek:

StonTemplePilot
08-01-2010, 01:26 PM
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)

bslee
08-01-2010, 01:34 PM
Right this moment, this Friday sermon (heard over the mosque loudspeaker) at USJ9 Masjid Al Falakh, is strongly stressing and urging on all umat against any voilence, quarrel or revenge against other religion here, and let the justice system settle the current issue, and in accordance to what is enshrined in our constitution.

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 01:47 PM
Wow, blow me away. Do you mean that historically, Allah is actually in reference to the Hindu Goddess Durga (the moon goddess). :eek:The pagan arabs used to worship many gods including the one called Al-Lat (also called Siva), Uzza, Manat and others.

Elements of their pantheon (assembly of all gods) could have come from the north (Judea, Rome and Greece) or the east (India and Persia).

Allah was the name they gave to the Chief God or High God. Perhaps that name did refer to the moon goddess at one time. But the one they called "Allah" was not the same as the one called Durga by the time that Muhammad was born.

The intervening years and religious practices (such as the influences from the Romans and Greeks and Judeans) would have shaped that change.

Muhammad also shaped/reshaped the concept of Allah from what it "was" to what it "is" and the Malaysian government is trying to do their own "shaping" of the word too.

But read to the end ... where it really gets interesting....


JD: My immediate question is to ask the Christian Community, as to why the sudden change of heart? On the one hand, Christian websites claim that “Allah” is a Pagan Moon God with irrefuttable proof. Then, the next moment, you claim to have “Historical Right” to use the Word Allah, even though it directly conflicts with all Christian Websites which insist that “Allah” is a Moon God. And they all seem to be able to provide “concrete evidence” of this; despite the fact that the Koran claims otherwise. Did you discover something that we all do not know of to have this sudden change of heart?

If not, then Please remove ALL Websites with all these so-called “evidence” that Allah is a Pagan Moon God.

My advise to the SIB, as clearly stated, please DO NOT USE the word "ALLAH" in reference to describing the Christian God. It is inappropriate, and theologically wrong, although (for a brief period) you may be Historically correct.

The “interpretive” word for God in Bahasa Malaysia is “Tuhan” (ie, Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan)

The “interpretive” word for Lord in Bahasa Malaysia is “Tuan” (ie, Ketuanan melayu)

The ArchBishop needs a netter Translator, and definitely a more competent Historian.

On the same note, BN might want to change the Selangor State Anthem,

“... Allah lanjutkan usia Tuanku...”, since you insist that no one else can use the word. Or, instruct non-Muslims of Selangor to sing every other word, and keep silent when the song reaches the word “Allah”.

And also:


The truth is, India (Aryan and Dravidic) had a very huge impact on the World. The oldest known Indian cultures existed in Mohenjodaro and Harappa. Evident in Language, customs, and culture. In fact, its' influence stayed in Asia for circa 15 centuries, and is still prevalent in Austronesian (formerly known as “malay”) Cultures today. Most notably in Bali, Indonesia.

Further reading of: “Influence of India on Malay Cultures” can be found here:

http://indiainteracts.com/members/2007/12/24/Suvarnabhumi-Influence-of-India-on-Malay-cultures/

And finally (I wish it were 'finally' but it won't be)


In Summation:

Religions, Language and Cultures are much more integrated than most would like you to think.

That's one of the main reasons we all ask for inter-faith harmony instead of shouting "My God is better than your God".

Cheers, m

ivanhow
08-01-2010, 01:58 PM
double standard is 1Malaysia culture... :D
I am beginning to wonder if 1Malaysia is really going to be ONE and not "WANTAN".

This morning news says some churches were being attacked by arson, but the top leaders in the garmen only asked the police to beef up security. I have not heard them bring those involved to book yet. :confused:

isarahim
08-01-2010, 02:07 PM
But then Isarahim, this is no more a religious issue anymore its become a political one even the unmo govt supports all this and with this blessing a church was torched.
Yes it's political. But the political issue is a creation of a fictive religious one. The fictive religious issue is swaying a lot of gullible muslims to believe it's a real one; to the point of taking a position which is clearly anti-islamic.

The above referred Ayah can only be interpreted as encouraging all the People of the Book, i.e. all the Abrahamic faiths, to use the word 'Allah' for the common God.

As a muslim you believe that the Quran are the words of God communicated via his Prophet.

Hence these gullible muslims have been manipulated into a position where their actions totally deviate from the words of God. That's why it's deviationist in nature.

umadavid
08-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Right this moment, this Friday sermon (heard over the mosque loudspeaker) at USJ9 Masjid Al Falakh, is strongly stressing and urging on all umat against any voilence, quarrel or revenge against other religion here, and let the justice system settle the current issue, and in accordance to what is enshrined in our constitution.
I like this :)

bslee
08-01-2010, 02:13 PM
I like this :)

A sermon serves only as a message and reminder to all. Nevertheless, anyone can do otherwise or against whats been preached the very next minute. There always lurk the bad amongst us all.

ivanhow
08-01-2010, 02:55 PM
Najib: We can't stop people from protesting.
Anwar tells supporters not to join protests

Here our PM say its okay to protest after Fridays prayers.

The future PM says its not okay.

What is your say?

Just when was the last time he ever said it's OK to protest (in the place of worship) ? Does that apply in all places of worship in 1Malaysia? Is this the universal value of 1Malaysia he is trying to propagate? Shouldn't he be leading by example in the concept of 1Malaysia he so expounded on? How is he going to explain the concept of 1Malaysia?

At least Anwar is in the right mind compared to Najib.

cskok8
08-01-2010, 02:59 PM
http://rights2write.wordpress.com/

Please visit my friend's blog. He is raising money to donate to the church.

kuma
08-01-2010, 03:07 PM
BBC: Malaysian churches fire-bombed ahead of demonstrations

We did it again. M-Boleh :D ...Top Asia Pacific story and No.3 'Most Read' & No. 1 'Most Shared' Globally on BBC right now.
[The 'No1 Most Shared' is Sad....this means people worldwide are sharing either by email or social sites this News right now]

READ HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8447450.stm)

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 05:03 PM
I refused to go for Jumaat prayers today.

Instead, I did zohar prayers at the surau in silent protest ... and prayed that the One called Allah would guide people out of their ignorance.

Cheers, m

gtl
08-01-2010, 05:11 PM
I refused to go for Jumaat prayers today.

Instead, I did zohar prayers at the surau in silent protest ... and prayed that the One called Allah would guide people out of their ignorance.

Cheers, m

my hats off to you bro!!

kuma
08-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Just read this on Asia Sentinel...AND...I don't like what I'm reading......now I'm concern.:eek:

Quote:
"By Friday evening, at least 150,000 protesters have signed onto a Facebook protest, with the numbers continuing to grow. "...[Although it doesn't clarify if the Protesters are FOR or AGAINST.]

Also what they wrote 'quoting well-placed source' is disturbing to me.

You can read HERE (http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2228&Itemid=199)

Jeyanthy
08-01-2010, 07:54 PM
Wow, blow me away. Do you mean that historically, Allah is actually in reference to the Hindu Goddess Durga (the moon goddess). :eek:


Shiva has a moon crescent on his head. You will find this symbol in the mosques as well. His consort is Durga. Somehow the moon on his head must have caused people to think he is the moon god and Durga the moon goddess. There are 3.3 million gods that are in controllers of the different elements in this universe. There gods specific for fire, wind, ocean, directions, planets, wealth, obstacle remover, etc. One of the gods is the moon god called Chandra not Shiva.

See Shiva's image here:
http://www.topnews.in/files/Lord-Shiva.jpg

Our universe is under the control of Durga. Durga means fort. We are all trapped here in a fort with no prison bars. Depending on our karma we get the body we deserve and continue this journey life after life. Once we know the process of how to get out, that is to chant, sing, dance and glorify the names of the Supreme Godhead, then we will eventually get out to the spiritual world where there is no death, old age or disease.

Now even Shiva reports to a higher god. We call Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. Another word for Krishna is "Kristos". In the Greek dictionary there is the word "Kristos" which means "Christ". Now isn't that interesting? ;)

USJ27Resident
08-01-2010, 08:13 PM
I refused to go for Jumaat prayers today.

Instead, I did zohar prayers at the surau in silent protest ...

:(

would you agree... thats is sometimes the problem is when - the silent majority(?) minority (?) by keeping quiet.... (in silent protest) - somehow allows and legitimizes those unGodly actions taken by the extremists....

BMW9700
08-01-2010, 10:57 PM
my neighbours are muslims and they are really very very good people..we always look out for each other and there is never a time when anyone in the neighbourhood is divided by race or religion..i don't believe that our malaysian people will react in this way..we all respect each other and thats what has carried us together as a beautiful country we know and love as malaysia...the horrendous incidences are instigated and carried out by the minority who are petrified of losing their grip on the country and are striving to keep bleeding a dying economy for their personal gains...believe me its all to do with this selfish minority


"today i am proud that the majority of true malaysians that avoided the trap set by these bloodsucking minority groups and in avoiding the situation escalating to a disaster"

ivanhow
09-01-2010, 01:39 AM
:(

would you agree... thats is sometimes the problem is when - the silent majority(?) minority (?) by keeping quiet.... (in silent protest) - somehow allows and legitimizes those unGodly actions taken by the extremists....

It may be true of what you say, but the problem is the silent group is peace loving, and does not wish to cause further confusion or 'disharmony' to the vocal group that's being condoned (by the top national leaders) to protest (against the High Court ruling) and hence, feel intimidated somewhat. Does this make any sense? :p The act of condoning to the protest (even under the guise that it is a religious right) can be view as interfering or intimidating the judicial system, that, would you agree?

StonTemplePilot
09-01-2010, 08:44 AM
A muslim friend advised me against going to the church service this sunday. If he's not a good friend of mine, I would probably have given him a good tongue lashing and a banana to boot.

Thanks for the advice but even in light of the security issues, I will still attend church service as normal.. and I do hope the same of all christians in USJ.

besitai2007
09-01-2010, 08:46 AM
Allowing the protest and the subsequent torching of three churches are part of a wider master plan. Don't be fooled or become complacent. Read RPK's webpage http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29485:kelantan-1977-revisited-to-understand-selangor-2010&catid=22:the-corridors-of-power&Itemid=100085. By creating a disturbance similar to that which happened in Kelantan 1977 and brought down the PAS government then, the present disturbances are part of a wider plan. Is it possible that the High Court judgment was done on purpose as the torch that lit the fire of more things to come? Remember Najib's promise to bring down the Selangor government by January 2010?

Jeyanthy
09-01-2010, 09:22 AM
Shiva has a moon crescent on his head. You will find this symbol in the mosques as well. His consort is Durga. Somehow the moon on his head must have caused people to think he is the moon god and Durga the moon goddess. There are 3.3 million gods that are in controllers of the different elements in this universe. There gods specific for fire, wind, ocean, directions, planets, wealth, obstacle remover, etc. One of the gods is the moon god called Chandra not Shiva.

See Shiva's image here:
http://www.topnews.in/files/Lord-Shiva.jpg

Our universe is under the control of Durga. Durga means fort. We are all trapped here in a fort with no prison bars. Depending on our karma we get the body we deserve and continue this journey life after life. Once we know the process of how to get out, that is to chant, sing, dance and glorify the names of the Supreme Godhead, then we will eventually get out to the spiritual world where there is no death, old age or disease.

Now even Shiva reports to a higher god. We call Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. Another word for Krishna is "Kristos". In the Greek dictionary there is the word "Kristos" which means "Christ". Now isn't that interesting? ;)

On this planet, Shiva is worshipped in this form by the Hindus:

http://www.avaneeswarar.com/images/sivalingam.jpg

Fang Su
09-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Allowing the protest and the subsequent torching of three churches are part of a wider master plan. Don't be fooled or become complacent. Read RPK's webpage http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29485:kelantan-1977-revisited-to-understand-selangor-2010&catid=22:the-corridors-of-power&Itemid=100085. By creating a disturbance similar to that which happened in Kelantan 1977 and brought down the PAS government then, the present disturbances are part of a wider plan. Is it possible that the High Court judgment was done on purpose as the torch that lit the fire of more things to come? Remember Najib's promise to bring down the Selangor government by January 2010?

This is a highly inflammatory statement. It is irresponsible to fan a concorted story.

bugbear
09-01-2010, 10:30 AM
The pagan arabs used to worship many gods including the one called Al-Lat (also called Siva), Uzza, Manat and others.

Elements of their pantheon (assembly of all gods) could have come from the north (Judea, Rome and Greece) or the east (India and Persia).

Allah was the name they gave to the Chief God or High God. Perhaps that name did refer to the moon goddess at one time. But the one they called "Allah" was not the same as the one called Durga by the time that Muhammad was born.

The intervening years and religious practices (such as the influences from the Romans and Greeks and Judeans) would have shaped that change.

Muhammad also shaped/reshaped the concept of Allah from what it "was" to what it "is" and the Malaysian government is trying to do their own "shaping" of the word too.

But read to the end ... where it really gets interesting....



And also:



And finally (I wish it were 'finally' but it won't be)



Cheers, m
Yes I do agree with your assessment that it is correct that the original word of Allah is for the pagan moon god and how muslim has reshape the meaning of the word. My question is if the Muslim can do it why can't the Christian? For your info, to the Christian Arab, Allah is not the Allah of the pagan (moon god) or the Allah of Islam. Do you catch my drift? Beside, Allah predate Islam and how could Islam now claim full exclusivity to that word?

dragonfly
09-01-2010, 10:54 AM
Yes I do agree with your assessment that it is correct that the original word of Allah is for the pagan moon god and how muslim has reshape the meaning of the word. My question is if the Muslim can do it why can't the Christian? For your info, to the Christian Arab, Allah is not the Allah of the pagan (moon god) or the Allah of Islam. Do you catch my drift? Beside, Allah predate Islam and how could Islam now claim full exclusivity to that word?

It is not Islam that is claiming exclusivity..........it's the malay muslims in Malaysia only. As far as I know this is a non issue in other muslim countries of the world including our bigger muslim neighbor, Indonesia.

USJ27Resident
09-01-2010, 12:14 PM
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48697-home-ministry-to-allow-protests-against-allah-ruling-

Isnt this just "nice"? Why would they want to allow a protest on an issue so blown out of proportions? What is the intent? :D

I have been surfing the Net for unbiased and unrestricted coverage and news of the 'attacks' on the christian churches.... and what is interesting/heartenings, is written in the comments sections, are about the embarrasements, the apologies, the remorse and the disappointments written by some of the muslim/malay readers...

if ever this issue got BLOWN OUT OF PORPORTION ~ it was done by the UMNO bums... and then aggravated by the HOME MINISTER/MINISTRY for allowing/sanctioning the protests.... it is like allowing a twit to carry a can of kerosene to dance at a bonfire... How stupid can one get.... :mad: :rolleyes: then again, if one have had a history of fanning racial fires (the UMNO/kris incident...) one would have the tendencies to repeat one self.... no?

I wonder....

besitai2007
09-01-2010, 12:25 PM
This is a highly inflammatory statement. It is irresponsible to fan a concorted story.
It is not inflammatory and not concorted. I take offence to that. Read RPK's website, Malaysiakini and Malaysia Insider. Depends on what you perceive to be inflammatory. I'm just summarising what these websites have to say.

Jeyanthy
09-01-2010, 01:20 PM
I came across this interesting video:

Long ago when I was living in India I had a very dear friend who was an 85 year old man. He was a Hindu, devotee of Lord Rama, and his best friend was a Muslim.

And they used to have inter-religious dialogues between themselves every few days and I would go and discuss with them.

And one day while sitting on the bank of the Ganges I asked him "In a country where there is so much conflict, and so much suspicion between Islam and Hinduism, how is it that the two of you are such good friends?"

And he gave me an answer which I've never forgotten.

He said "If a person has a dog, if that person stands before the dog in a three-piece suit, or in a t-shirt, or in pajamas, or in underwear, or if he stands before the dog naked, the dog will always recognize his master even in different clothes, in different settings."

He said "If we cannot recognize our God when He comes in different dresses, in different forms, in different ways, and teaches through different traditions..

..if we can't recognize our God in these different ways, then we have so much to learn from a dog."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfY7iJMcHDI :cool:

mick123
09-01-2010, 01:38 PM
me think that if the A-word is exclusive, then our gomen should stop being jaguh kampung and stop wasting time going to your Court of Appeal and take it to the International Court (if there is one to hear such case) to get an order that will apply to the whole planet earth for the exclusivity of the A-word.

so dear Mr. PM, gather your thoughts and the brightest of your attorneys to go international on this one.

Fang Su
09-01-2010, 01:49 PM
It is not inflammatory and not concorted. I take offence to that. Read RPK's website, Malaysiakini and Malaysia Insider. Depends on what you perceive to be inflammatory. I'm just summarising what these websites have to say.

I am not saying you concorted the story. I said it is irresponsible to fan a concorted story. RPK does not represent the absolute truth in everything. And neither do Malaysiakini, Malaysianinsider, NST or The Star. My view is that unless those so-called reports were based on factual events, they are but to me, just concorted stories. Of course you may have a different view and that is your right. But let me quote you:


By creating a disturbance similar to that which happened in Kelantan 1977 and brought down the PAS government then, the present disturbances are part of a wider plan. Is it possible that the High Court judgment was done on purpose as the torch that lit the fire of more things to come?

You are implicating that the High Court Judge was part of the conspiracy to cause unrest in the country. That, to me, is a concorted story and is highly inflammatory.

I am just disagreeing with you. No need to feel offended so easily.

firefox
09-01-2010, 01:57 PM
As i said before, this is no more a religious issue its an umno agenda to unite the Malays against the opposition..Just hope the GE was sooner.
The popularity of umno right now is rock bottom.

Go and register now and make a difference, if you want drastic changes, otherwise these sort of incidents will continue.

Actually majority of the malays are not bothered about this issue..its only a handful of them who think there are some kind of heroes who are pleasing some politicans so as to distract the ppl of the many appalling corrupt issues of the country.

The gomen is squandering billions of our national wealth and theres nothing we can do about it.

May i say this is my views of this drama you may have yours.

isarahim
09-01-2010, 03:06 PM
It is not Islam that is claiming exclusivity..........it's the malay muslims in Malaysia only. As far as I know this is a non issue in other muslim countries of the world including our bigger muslim neighbor, Indonesia.
I'd say it's a fraction of malay muslims in Malaysia only. A loud fraction.

And as you can see above the Quran is pretty clear on the matter.

Hiliary
09-01-2010, 03:14 PM
Don't you just hate people who manipulate the masses?

History teaches that they get what they deserve in the end.
It just takes way too long!

Sentinel
09-01-2010, 03:15 PM
I'd say it's a fraction of malay muslims in Malaysia only. A loud fraction.

And as you can see above the Quran is pretty clear on the matter.
You have been missing for sometime, Isa! Anyway your "re-appearence" is timely to add some clarification to this "fiery" issue ongoing.

Thanks for the verse from the Al Quran. I find this translation, quoted by Jeffrey Kitingan of Sabah in an article is a much 'easier to grasp' and I quote:

He cited a 'surah' (chapter 29, verse 46) from the Holy Quran: "... and do not debate with the people of the book (Christians and Jews) except with decorum, except those who are belligerent among them, and say to them we believe in the books/scriptures that had been brought to us and unto thee; my God and your God is one; and only to Him do we submit."

tupai
09-01-2010, 08:00 PM
i mix with many many many many malays. And many are under 30yrs old. they are from all stratas of the society. College kids, despatch boys,executives, professionals, teachers and even retirees etc...

Guess what? They are all more level headed and matured than those politicians! They can all see thru the ploy! :)


Yang Berkawan ramai ramai latotupai

Nick Chia
09-01-2010, 09:16 PM
To me it is political that the gomen allow this to spread. However, if you play with God /Allah be prepared to face God/Allah 's wrath. It can come in many forms.

Sentinel
09-01-2010, 11:23 PM
To me it is political that the gomen allow this to spread. However, if you play with God /Allah be prepared to face God/Allah 's wrath. It can come in many forms.If I were to say it was from the beginning and I were to quote from RPK's blog, my return to this forum might be shortened, so I won't.

I personally think it was a game plan to garner support for the ailing ruling party through a united Malay support but it went out of control. I don't think the Church-burning part was part of the script but things got awfully wrong. And when the news of "Church torching" became the top hit in BBC Online and every online news portal worldwide, "they" got cold feet and made a U-turn.

ivanhow
10-01-2010, 12:18 AM
Allowing the protest and the subsequent torching of three churches are part of a wider master plan. Don't be fooled or become complacent. Read RPK's webpage http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29485:kelantan-1977-revisited-to-understand-selangor-2010&catid=22:the-corridors-of-power&Itemid=100085. By creating a disturbance similar to that which happened in Kelantan 1977 and brought down the PAS government then, the present disturbances are part of a wider plan. Is it possible that the High Court judgment was done on purpose as the torch that lit the fire of more things to come? Remember Najib's promise to bring down the Selangor government by January 2010?
Well, that may be another so called 'conspiracy theory', but the court ruling would not have been necessary if the religious freedom of others were not interfered with which seems remote from politics, dun u agree? Perhaps, the situation was seen by 'some' as an opportunity for inciting polarisation, and hence seen by some as an attempt.

Sentinel
10-01-2010, 12:41 PM
Malaysians lekas lupa. The man who first made the decree / order to ban the use of the word Allah in the Herald newsletter was the ex-Home Minister - the one people referred to as Botak and who put an innocent Chinese-daily journalist under ISA and also Teresa Kok too. Can't remember his name - Syed Hamid Allblur or something like that.

USJ27Resident
10-01-2010, 01:28 PM
i mix with many many many many malays. And many are under 30yrs old. they are from all stratas of the society. College kids, despatch boys,executives, professionals, teachers and even retirees etc...

Guess what? They are all more level headed and matured than those politicians! They can all see thru the ploy! :)


Yang Berkawan ramai ramai latotupai

Whattodo.... people like Mukhriz and his father, the ex-PM... still thinks that the Malays can be easily confused and duped by other religious beliefs/faiths... goes to show their own mentality... amazes me how the ex-PM managed to hold on to power for 22years... then again, mebbe he's right... he managed to hold on to 22years because he and his goons managed to confused and duped the bumiputras for so long.... now that everything is unravelling.... they get desperate - even willing to risk burning the very same boat that they themselves are on.... :mad:

Nick Chia
10-01-2010, 03:25 PM
I am surprised that Bernama still reports that a madarasah school held a protest today. Why can't they ignore them,? Do they want to fan the issue further ? What is the home ministry doing ? They interviewed people who wants it to be settled out of court. So what is the constitution for ?

Mr home minister , please show your leadership.If everyone wants it their way, better abolished the constitution and the court. Do not forget that if they can do what they want you are not spared too.

USJ27Resident
10-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Seriously, sometimes you wonder how the ex-PM thinks.... one minute he is ranting about the issue... then he goes on record saying although Christians and Muslims enjoyed a harmonious relationship, there were “immature minds” out to cause havoc....

I seriously wonder WHO ARE THESE "immature minds".... :confused:

All I can say is - all these incidents, suddenly bursting out in the open - seems to my like a PLOY to distract MALAYSIANS from the bigger sh!t that is about to hit the fan... :eek:

tupai
10-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Whattodo.... people like Mukhriz and his father, the ex-PM... still thinks that the Malays can be easily confused and duped by other religious beliefs/faiths... goes to show their own mentality... amazes me how the ex-PM managed to hold on to power for 22years... then again, mebbe he's right... he managed to hold on to 22years because he and his goons managed to confused and duped the bumiputras for so long.... now that everything is unravelling.... they get desperate - even willing to risk burning the very same boat that they themselves are on.... :mad:

hmmm, funny how his sister is like a maverick in the family...Or it is also another piece of jigsaw to a bigger scheme of thing :confused:

Yang Blur sotong latotupai :D

silver_bird
10-01-2010, 04:57 PM
Dear KWChang,
Since contents of "Home Ministry to allow protests against ‘Allah’ ruling" & "Court say yes to Allah" are quite similar, how about intergrating them into one thread. Thanks.

Jey
10-01-2010, 06:17 PM
Seems its now in Miri also... http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121594

Taking the count to 10. What is the authorities doing about it? :eek:

Excerpted from MalaysiaKini;


Some ten churches have come under attack in Sarawak, Perak and Melaka, revealed the authorities.

tupai
10-01-2010, 06:37 PM
Seems its now in Miri also... http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121594

Taking the count to 10. What is the authorities doing about it? :eek:

Excerpted from MalaysiaKini;

In a way, the monster is getting out of control...

but the flip side is that the PM, ministers & politicians of all manners/kinds/colours/races and religions ARE visiting churches (never mind that after its firebombed!)...now, isnt that kinda a 'step forward' to inter-religion understanding? :confused: Last time where got these 'leaders' visiting enmasse?

Yang Bersembayang Tuhan saves all latotupai :)

Jey
10-01-2010, 06:45 PM
The visiting part is just "damage control" and PR exercise... remember that the before this whole thing erupted, who were "fanning" the fire?

Read the title of the thread for clues. This is a country that couldn't even tolerate peaceful candle light vigils yet these protests were not only allowed but were subtly fanned. Sudden change in policy? No prizes for guessing...
:p

silver_bird
10-01-2010, 07:07 PM
Six Muslim NGO offered their help to prevent any further attacks on churches begin in KL and Selangor but could expand to other states as well with the help of volunteers and RELA.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/10/nation/20100110190611&sec=nation

silver_bird
10-01-2010, 07:16 PM
" Have any surau or masjid been fire-bombed?
Yet amidst all the burning and fire-bombing of churches, you claim you are threatened ? "
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121585

USJ27Resident
10-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Six Muslim NGO offered their help to prevent any further attacks on churches begin in KL and Selangor...

I want to see the UMNO youth coming out of their 'tempurung' and help protect all these churches and chapels... only then I will believe that Khairy Jamaluddin speech.... :rolleyes:

isarahim
10-01-2010, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the verse from the Al Quran. I find this translation, quoted by Jeffrey Kitingan of Sabah in an article is a much 'easier to grasp'
Hi yes it's good to be back, albeit for short time only. I just couldn't help popping in to check how the USJ crowd were reacting to this story....

I agree with you. I think that's Shafie's translation, which is far more modern than my 'Shakespearean' Mohd Picthall translation.

bobkee
10-01-2010, 08:37 PM
Six Muslim NGO offered their help to prevent any further attacks on churches begin in KL and Selangor but could expand to other states as well with the help of volunteers and RELA.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/10/nation/20100110190611&sec=nationThese groups were the same groups that were agitating prior to the church attacks and were the main organisers of the post Friday Prayers demonstrations last Friday. Should we harapkan this pagar or wait for this pagar to eat the paddy?

Sentinel
10-01-2010, 11:47 PM
Hi yes it's good to be back, albeit for short time only. I just couldn't help popping in to check how the USJ crowd were reacting to this story....

I agree with you. I think that's Shafie's translation, which is far more modern than my 'Shakespearean' Mohd Picthall translation.
Where can I purchase a copy of the Shafie translation of the Al Quran, Isa?

BMW9700
11-01-2010, 12:00 AM
Where can I purchase a copy of the Shafie translation of the Al Quran, Isa?


good to hear from u sir!

Sentinel
11-01-2010, 12:57 AM
good to hear from u sir!Thanks... maybe you yourself should be more active in the motoring section :D its already dead without your input.... :mad:

keny
11-01-2010, 07:35 AM
NST 7/1/10 PAS fully supports the government's decision to appeal against the high court decision hat allows Catholic weekly Herald to use the word "Allah" and want the ruling reversed.

isarahim
11-01-2010, 07:44 AM
Where can I purchase a copy of the Shafie translation of the Al Quran, Isa?
Oops I blew that one!

I meant Yusuf Ali, not Shafie. See here:
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/index.htm

Shafie did a translation to Bahasa, not English.

No clue where to buy, I don't buy books anymore...it's too complicated for a person like me who cannot live in one place more than half a year...

isarahim
11-01-2010, 08:01 AM
NST 7/1/10 PAS fully supports the government's decision to appeal against the high court decision hat allows Catholic weekly Herald to use the word "Allah" and want the ruling reversed.
Keny, what is your agenda? This posting is your own concoction. There is no such statement from PAS. Else, give a link.

firefox
11-01-2010, 08:04 AM
Life goes on, and the Christians are not deterred by the force of the evil one.
We were in full force in our Churches.
Just prayed, forgave and blessed them for they do not know what they do.

bugbear
11-01-2010, 08:10 AM
" Have any surau or masjid been fire-bombed?
Yet amidst all the burning and fire-bombing of churches, you claim you are threatened ? "
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121585
They the Muslim need not fear reprisal from the Christian because God the Father do not allow us to do that. We must forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. We are also told to leave whatever revenge to God and not take up retaliation on our own. Along with the above the true mark of a Christian is love, and to love thy neighbour as thy self. :)

keny
11-01-2010, 09:49 AM
some malay guys sent me these. i fear both extreme religious malays and alcoholic malays.


http://mstar.com.my/berita/cerita.asp?file=/2010/1/4/mstar_berita/20100104184356&sec=mstar_berita


http://pas.org.my/v2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2596:pas-kecewa-mahkamah-benarkan-perkataan-allah-dalam-mingguan-herald-the-catholic&catid=20:kenyataan-rasmi&Itemid=99

Nick Chia
11-01-2010, 10:47 AM
This country have gone through so many controversial incidents over the last 50 years. First it was the Independence (Merdeka) that unite us, then we were facing the communist threats, we suceeded in staying united.

Then came the infamous may 69. we are divided
After that the following;-
Nep
bumiputra
the royalties
Nep again
ketuanan melayu
and now Allah

Whats next?

silver_bird
11-01-2010, 03:21 PM
Dear All,
Could we post the above topic to thread "Court say yes to Allah"
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=29098&page=1&pp=15

The above is to avoid confusion.
Thanks.

Nick Chia
11-01-2010, 03:41 PM
Whats next ? We should stay strong and united irrespective of race and creed and let this to passed. Malaysia Berjaya.

bobkee
11-01-2010, 04:14 PM
Dear All,
Could we post the above topic to thread "Court say yes to Allah"
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=29098&page=1&pp=15

The above is to avoid confusion.
Thanks.I quite disagree. Merging might cause confusion. This thread is to highlight the instigation of violence by certain quarters. The other thread deals mainly with the right of non-Muslims in Malaysia to use the national language as they see fit, including for purposes of religious worship.

kwchang
13-01-2010, 12:40 AM
I suggest we stop going around in circles. I believe everything that need to be said had already been said.

I just read Marina Mahatir's blog (http://www.rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/) ... you all should go see what she wrote about her Muslim friends coming together to help. I think it is heart-warming. Go down the page and read what she wrote on Friday 8 January.

JollyRoger
13-01-2010, 01:47 AM
A church in Indonesia


http://is.gd/629ox

usehead
13-01-2010, 12:13 PM
And the whole world will come to know that some section of people in Malaysia do not know the difference between language and religion.


.........also confuse about being rational and not reasonable!

usehead
13-01-2010, 12:15 PM
This country have gone through so many controversial incidents over the last 50 years. First it was the Independence (Merdeka) that unite us, then we were facing the communist threats, we suceeded in staying united.

Then came the infamous may 69. we are divided
After that the following;-
Nep
bumiputra
the royalties
Nep again
ketuanan melayu
and now Allah

Whats next?



the road to maturity takes lot of compassion, tolerance and wisdom.... long way to grow mal

firefox
13-01-2010, 02:15 PM
A church in Indonesia


http://is.gd/629ox

"You cant compare an apple with an orange" quoting a ministry official who said this to some head of missions lately,
and these are 2 muslims countiries but have different idealogies!.

I dont think our apple is rosy but.......

simon_tan
13-01-2010, 03:18 PM
Here's an article someone sent to a mailing list today:

http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?mid1=763&&ArticleID=26207&&name=n&&currPage=1

Sentinel
13-01-2010, 03:32 PM
"A rose by any name smells as nice" William Shakespeare.

To me God is God, its between the beliver and HIm, its personal. Too many people are too emotionally worked up over the name to call Him. Thats what is prolonging this issue. I am not belittling any party on either side of the divide but my question is, will it make you a more special person if you get to refer to Him by a different or exclusive title? Is the damage to people, the faith (both), the society, the country and the world worth the fight to refer to God by an exclusive title?

God is still the Greatest and Almighty by any name.

jan tomaswaki
13-01-2010, 03:43 PM
Then came the infamous may 69. we are divided
After that the following;-
Nep
bumiputra
the royalties
Nep again
ketuanan melayu
and now Allah

Whats next?
I should say bak kut teh,after hoo haa they will argue,haram teh,babi teh,takut teh will be a better name to put. :D :D :D

kwchang
13-01-2010, 04:05 PM
When the discussions get down to bah kut teh, we know the content is exhausted. :( I know I am exhausted checking and reading all the usual rhetorics ... the threads on this issue should be closed soon.

AllUrban
13-01-2010, 04:15 PM
"A rose by any name smells as nice" William Shakespeare.

To me God is God, its between the beliver and HIm, its personal. Too many people are too emotionally worked up over the name to call Him. Thats what is prolonging this issue. I am not belittling any party on either side of the divide but my question is, will it make you a more special person if you get to refer to Him by a different or exclusive title? Is the damage to people, the faith (both), the society, the country and the world worth the fight to refer to God by an exclusive title?

God is still the Greatest and Almighty by any name.
When the discussions get down to bah kut teh, we know the content is exhausted. :( I know I am exhausted checking and reading all the usual rhetorics ... the threads on this issue should be closed soon.
Amen to that. (Or Ameen if you prefer)

Cheers, m

trex92
13-01-2010, 10:31 PM
i'm watching the youtube video of "Inside Story" from Aj-Jazeera (refer to Malaysia-Today). In one scene with the video footage of the protest, it shows one poster written as "Treat Others In the Way that THEY wish to be treated" :D :D

Also, it's very entertaining to hear the young speaker making a proper fool of himself, very clearly reading from his stack of A4 papers (pointed out by the news host as well) and then talking himself into a corner and then stammering more softly "... can I stop from there?" :D :D if you can't stand the heat, don't step into the kitchen in the first place, my dear boy... bet you will be laughed at from this moment onwards for making a fool out of yourself and malaysians on an international news network. Go watch the video... entertaining indeed! :D

totoro
13-01-2010, 10:55 PM
I think it's sad that a lot of embarrassing, senseless drama is being brought into the media spotlight.

one asks the question why, and the first answer would be that those that feel victimized or oppressed saw no other choice, but to get backing from the public or court. the second answer, the one i detest, are due to (1) selling news, disregarding ethics and their impact to society, (2) political-driven motivations from all sides, and/or (3) discontented people who love being part of the problem rather than the solution.

to me it seems so simple. if the herald had been using the A word since it started publication, then it's silly to ban it in 2007. if the herald only introduced it in 2007, and was subsequently discovered and a ban imposed, then i would tend to agree that the sudden introduction of the word may have triggered a bad reaction.

totoro
13-01-2010, 11:21 PM
Malaysians lekas lupa. The man who first made the decree / order to ban the use of the word Allah in the Herald newsletter was the ex-Home Minister - the one people referred to as Botak and who put an innocent Chinese-daily journalist under ISA and also Teresa Kok too. Can't remember his name - Syed Hamid Allblur or something like that.

According to Lim Kit Siang's blog:

it began with the 1986 government ban on the use by non-Muslims of the word “Allah”, and three others — “solat”, “Kaabah” and “Baitullah”.
gosh, the ban was already in place 24 years ago. if so, was it an act of ignorance by the Herald?

bugbear
14-01-2010, 02:22 AM
i'm watching the youtube video of "Inside Story" from Aj-Jazeera (refer to Malaysia-Today). In one scene with the video footage of the protest, it shows one poster written as "Treat Others In the Way that THEY wish to be treated" :D :D

Also, it's very entertaining to hear the young speaker making a proper fool of himself, very clearly reading from his stack of A4 papers (pointed out by the news host as well) and then talking himself into a corner and then stammering more softly "... can I stop from there?" :D :D if you can't stand the heat, don't step into the kitchen in the first place, my dear boy... bet you will be laughed at from this moment onwards for making a fool out of yourself and malaysians on an international news network. Go watch the video... entertaining indeed! :D
Yep, make a fool out of himself unlike how Rev herman and the american guy handle the interview. He stammer, hemming and hawing about his points and just stick to his point that Malays get confused by the mere mention of the A word. :D

trex92
14-01-2010, 09:30 AM
Yep, make a fool out of himself unlike how Rev herman and the american guy handle the interview. He stammer, hemming and hawing about his points and just stick to his point that Malays get confused by the mere mention of the A word. :D

yeap... :D :D he kept repeating himself here and there and not conveying any points across... it was laughable at how he was like trying to find answers to the questions asked by the host by looking at his script as though the answer is there. He also consistently does not make eye contact with the camera, does he know it is a television interview and not a radio interview or not? :D :D :D

The scary fact is that these young generation are the produce from our current education system, who cannot think but rather just read, memorise and vomit everything out without any thought process. So in cases of debates or live telecast like this, they don't do well and can't answer properly because "blur"...

AllUrban
14-01-2010, 09:51 AM
i'm watching the youtube video of "Inside Story" from Aj-Jazeera (refer to Malaysia-Today). In one scene with the video footage of the protest, it shows one poster written as "Treat Others In the Way that THEY wish to be treated" :D :D

Also, it's very entertaining to hear the young speaker making a proper fool of himself, very clearly reading from his stack of A4 papers (pointed out by the news host as well) and then talking himself into a corner and then stammering more softly "... can I stop from there?" :D :D if you can't stand the heat, don't step into the kitchen in the first place, my dear boy... bet you will be laughed at from this moment onwards for making a fool out of yourself and malaysians on an international news network. Go watch the video... entertaining indeed! :DAnwar he's not

Cheers, m

AllUrban
14-01-2010, 09:57 AM
According to Lim Kit Siang's blog:

gosh, the ban was already in place 24 years ago. if so, was it an act of ignorance by the Herald?If it was a deliberate act of Civil Disobedience, then Im proud of them for doing so. Ive committed my own acts of civil disobedience in Malaysia and Canada on a number of occasions. Some forumers know what Im talking about.

As the saying goes, 'it is a just man who disobeys an unjust law.'

If the Herald was doing this for religious freedoms then I am proud of them also. God has the right to be called by God's proper name and understood deeply by humankind.

But if the Herald was using the word for other er...temporal reasons...then they will have to take responsibility. But I do not know what they were thinking and frankly it is not my business.

They can explain it to Allah when they are asked. Im going to focus on my own accounts and responsibility for my life.

Cheers, m

Nick Chia
14-01-2010, 11:08 AM
The interview by Al Ja azeera paints a very bad image for malaysia. Imagine that you want to invest and there are so many condition to conform and besides these conditions there are others that are exclusive even though the constitution states clearly. Courts judgement can be overuled by public sentiments is a dangerous precedent.

In other words, we have our own ethnic and tribal laws that preside over others. If that is so, then we will remain one of the exclusive country and it should qualify for World Heritage staus.

However , we must carry on and let not this small issue obstruct our progress as we are lacking far behind. As it said, close door discussion and gagging will heal this loose, loose issue.

bobkee
14-01-2010, 11:10 AM
According to Lim Kit Siang's blog:

gosh, the ban was already in place 24 years ago. if so, was it an act of ignorance by the Herald?The issue was settled behind closed doors with the 2 preceding PMs, whereby non-Muslims (specifically Christians) would be allowed to use the necessary terminology without the ban actually being reversed. See:

http://www.thenutgraph.com/pms-assured-christians-use-of-allah

I think this goes to show how closed-door settlements don't work without the necessary guarantees being put in black and white.

bugbear
14-01-2010, 11:53 AM
The issue was settled behind closed doors with the 2 preceding PMs, whereby non-Muslims (specifically Christians) would be allowed to use the necessary terminology without the ban actually being reversed. See:

http://www.thenutgraph.com/pms-assured-christians-use-of-allah

I think this goes to show how closed-door settlements don't work without the necessary guarantees being put in black and white.
I agree with you bob. Whatever decision made behind close door can be undone whenever the next PM came to power and at this rate, I don't see how lasting peace can be achieved. It is a case of now you can use it and now you can't. If this is the way things will be, then let the court be the final arbiter.

USJ27Resident
15-01-2010, 07:27 PM
Its OK for East Malaysians pulak! (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49707-now-east-malaysian-christians-can-worship-allah) Hmmm.... I wonder is it becos the VIPs (very irritating politicians) suddenly realised that East Malaysians ARE THE VERY reason why they are still have an office in the Federal Govt...

And guess what... Sarawak elections are just around the corner... no? :p Now nobody is STUPID enough to go stir a "hornets nest" during a critical moment... :rolleyes:

Sentinel
15-01-2010, 08:57 PM
The interview by Al Ja azeera paints a very bad image for Malaysia... Oh, was that interview on Malaysia?... sorry for the confusion because these interviews sound so much like they were talking about Afghanistan and the Talibans or Pakistans or even Iran during the early years after the downfall of the Shah Reza Pahlavi from the Peacock Throne.... :D

Ditto
15-01-2010, 09:13 PM
For those who miss this special coverage by Al-Jazeera > Inside Story - Religious violence in Malaysia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV89G-wrgDQ&feature=player_embedded

who's right, who's wrong...u be the judge

chewie
16-01-2010, 08:53 AM
is this consider 1Malaysia ???

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/16/nation/5487269&sec=nation

Fabe18
16-01-2010, 10:05 AM
same article on Malaysia Insider... Read the comments...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49707-now-east-malaysian-christians-can-worship-allah

bugbear
16-01-2010, 11:03 AM
same article on Malaysia Insider... Read the comments...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49707-now-east-malaysian-christians-can-worship-allah
This cannot be right at all. You either ban all our you don't. No half measure.

Justme123
16-01-2010, 11:49 AM
is this consider 1Malaysia ???
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/16/nation/5487269&sec=nationI think this is reasonable given the circumstances.

After all, a word is just a word, a symbol, or a model that represent some thing.
A word is not the thing that is being referred to.
Infact, a word is in another sense an idol, i.e. an idol made of alphabets as
opposed to the ones made of stones, mud, steel or plastics.

'Rose' is just a word that represent a thing that has certain specific
properties categorized as a flower.
A real rose, thus by any other name is still a 'rose' as the 'thing' we know it to be.
If i hold a rose in hand and say and write it as 'sh_t', it will not change what rose is supposed to be.
The only difference is in the mind.
Therefore if we are mentally matured we would not be overly agitated over
the different word that is used.

God, Allah, Brahman, the Absolute (intended to be in its pristine form) are
also words, and they represent the same one thing that is absolute,
omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omni-whatever.
If the word conform to this, it is OK.

But if any word for God is used and conditioned by threats such as, 'use my
god's name and we will enforce violence (direct or indirectly) on you' then
there is definitely something wrong with it. Such a conditioned god cannot be
omnipresent nor omnibenevolent. It is a human-made condition not God's.
Those who hold on to such conditions are a long way off from being spiritual.

Since there is a air of violence hovering around the word, imo, the Catholics
should be magnanimous to wean off the use of that word (even if they win
the court case or the govt relented) and slowly (10-20 years) introduce a
word more specific with no room for controversies to represent God.

Just my 0.02 cents for peace sake. :D btw. i am not a theist.

StonTemplePilot
16-01-2010, 11:57 AM
If Christians give way on this issue, what will be next?

Justme123
16-01-2010, 12:02 PM
If Christians give way on this issue, what will be next?imo, the will lose their pride (a sin anyway), controlled their
base emotions and get nearer to their real God that no words can really
describe nor represent.

The principle is the same as forgiveness.
When one forgive, one let go in engaging the the lower animal brain
of the base emotions of anger, revenge, violence and all those negativities,
and shift gear to the higher mature human brain.

It would be the same if they give way, i.e. magnanimous.

tictactoe
16-01-2010, 12:06 PM
I really don't get it, shouldn't the muslims be proud that the Christians are using 'their' word for god? As in agreeing with them that there is ONE god. BTW, I am not Muslim or Christian.

Sentinel
16-01-2010, 12:07 PM
is this consider 1Malaysia ???

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/16/nation/5487269&sec=nation
1Malaysia, 3Laws... if you also add on that the Sikhs have been using the word Allah in West Malaysia since the religion was first introduced here...

Justme123
16-01-2010, 12:22 PM
I really don't get it, shouldn't the muslims be proud that the Christians are using 'their' word for god? As in agreeing with them that there is ONE god. BTW, I am not Muslim or Christian.
Yes, if and only if the majority are spiritually matured.
But that is not the case in Malaysia as we can glaringly observe.
Those who are capable of change, should make the change rather
than waiting for others to change to their expectations.

I think, those who are accomodative and made the change will be able to
demonstrate their higher level of spiritual and emotional maturity over those
who coerce them with threat of violence.

Fabe18
16-01-2010, 12:23 PM
to say a word is just a word is ok if you don't need to print....

I don't know how many translated Malay bibles are there eing used but i'm sure many of them have used Allah... So if the ban of the Allah word is in place, wouldn't that mean retranslating the bibles??? It's not just 'find and replace', the context would be different since I've read that Allah and Tuhan would have slightly different and both can be find in the same sentence....

This is just absurd... It only became sensitive when the UMHO goons decided to play up the issue.... Can anyone confirm the word Allah has indeed been in use here in West Malaysia was before this issue cropped up?? If yes, why the sudden need to ban it... Has it caused unrest in the past???

totoro
16-01-2010, 12:26 PM
in a country where the English word God is adequately represented by the Malay word Tuhan, and where the Malay vocabulary is created and defined by Malays, and where it is a culturally accepted norm in the country for the A-word to represent the Muslim's faith (coming from me, a Christian East Malaysian)...

We are of different faiths, even if we worship the same one true God. but we live in peace and harmony.

Words are borrowed and reused in each other's languages all the time. To argue with the creators of a language on its use and meaning is a total waste of time.

If you want a real solution, why don't the creators of the Malay language create a new word for the Christian God? Perhaps borrowing from the Jewish or English language?

We're not talking about who is right. Insistent fighting about who is factually right makes us all look like foolish kids fighting in kindergarden. Making it an issue to drive our own self-motivations and end goals (political, religious, or otherwise), without considering the discord it may sow in our beloved country, is what got us here today.

Sentinel
16-01-2010, 12:34 PM
in a country where the English word God is adequately represented by the Malay word Tuhan, and where the Malay vocabulary is created and defined by Malays, and where it is a culturally accepted norm in the country for the A-word to represent the Muslim's faith (coming from me, a Christian East Malaysian)...

We are of different faiths, even if we worship the same one true God. but we live in peace and harmony.

Words are borrowed and reused in each other's languages all the time. To argue with the creators of a language on its use and meaning is a total waste of time.

If you want a real solution, why don't the creators of the Malay language create a new word for the Christian God? Perhaps borrowing from the Jewish or English language?

We're not talking about who is right. Insistent fighting about who is factually right makes us all look like foolish kids fighting in kindergarden. Making it an issue to drive our own self-motivations and end goals (political, religious, or otherwise), without considering the discord it may sow in our beloved country, is what got us here today.
But the A-word was not copied from the Malay language, Totoro. It was a word used by many other peoples round the world including by non-Muslims in Egypt to call their God by the A-word. The A-word is NOT a Malay word, don't get it mixed up!

Fabe18
16-01-2010, 12:47 PM
Malaysia has a grand vision... To be more islamic than where the faith originated... But most of the time it's only surface deep... In the process to be more islamic, they forgot the basic principles of being tolerant...

Another thing that probably made Malaysia unique as a muslim majority country is compulsory conversion if either spouse is a muslim... From what i heard, Malaysia is the only country which practised this.. indonesia doesn't have this law.. How about the middle eastern countries?

Maybe that's what the govt mean when they say Malaysia is DIFFERENT...

totoro
16-01-2010, 12:58 PM
But the A-word was not copied from the Malay language, Totoro. It was a word used by many other peoples round the world including by non-Muslims in Egypt to call their God by the A-word. The A-word is NOT a Malay word, don't get it mixed up!

That is not what I said. What I am saying is, yes the Malay copied the Arabic word (common to all languages) and used it to refer to God in the Malay language. and you do understand that to the Malays (all Muslims) there is no other God, so they needed no differentiator for my God or your God.

it doesn't matter what it's origins are.

if you're writing a book in Bahasa Melayu, then the Malay word even if it's copied from an Arabic word, letter for letter, shouldn't mean it's referring to the Arabic word. what's the point of suddenly inserting an Arabic word into a Bahasa Melayu text? or use a BM word and then arguing it's an Arabic word?

why argue meaning of words with those who literally defined them for their language?

do you follow?

That is also what I meant by not arguing facts. it's beating a dead horse.

umadavid
16-01-2010, 01:01 PM
The problem here is some people trying to appropriate the word and saying that it is their sole right to use it. Some people also go around saying, "Malay is Islam" "Allah hanya untuk Melayu, hanya untuk Islam". Race and religion do not mean the same thing. There are many Chinese, Indian and others who have embraced Islam as their religion of choice. If Allah hanya untuk Melayu then what about the converts. They certainly do not automatically become Malay the moment they become muslims.

Shallow understanding always leads to misunderstanding.

Justme123
16-01-2010, 01:13 PM
But the A-word was not copied from the Malay language, Totoro.
It was a word used by many other peoples round the world including by non-Muslims
in Egypt to call their God by the A-word.
The A-word is NOT a Malay word, don't get it mixed up! Yes the A-word is not a Malay word.
I read an article from RPK (it is public knowledge i think) that the founder of
Islam borrowed the A-word from the pagans at that time.


The term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah) was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god,
possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia
I think the main issue is not the A-term but the inherent and threat of violence
from certain ignorant groups. (not all Muslims).
These groups are emotionally insecured and do not understand what
communication and linguistics are about.
Question is; can we expect them to change their minds that quickly.
Can the Christians rely on the police for security...
and note what was the Police's earlier response... short of staff! :eek: :confused:

expat1609
16-01-2010, 01:17 PM
The problem here is some people trying to appropriate the word and saying that it is their sole right to use it. Some people undefinedalso go around saying, "Malay is Islam" "Allah hanya untuk Melayu, hanya untuk Islam". Race and religion do not mean the same thing. There are many Chinese, Indian and others who have embraced Islam as their religion of choice. If Allah hanya untuk Melayu then what about the converts. They certainly do not automatically become Malay the moment they become muslims.

Shallow understanding always leads to misunderstanding.

Some people, yes only some fortunately.

But as little as this people consider converts malay, as little they may consider converts muslims. they probably look down on converts while they consider themselves the originals. just wonder what their interpretation of islam is like.
mine is not discrimination, but peace, love and respect (which, by the way, my christian parents tought me).

Some people had started such issues some time ago for all the wrong reasons and now this country is all over the world-media again.

when will some people stop telling the malaysians: You are stupid, if you do yoga - you become hindu, if they say allah - you become christian....coz you will be :confused: , isn't it this statements actually, not the issue itself that confuses :confused:
Guess what they are trying to say is: We are here to protect you, but what they really state is much more the above, IMHO.

just sad how a few people can bring down the image of their country and their religion.

when you talk about understanding, i wonder if they do understand that they all believe in GOD, THE GOD,ALLAH the one and only, hence the same god.
There is actually no difference, until people start to make one...IMHO again!!

Sentinel
16-01-2010, 02:04 PM
Surah 29, Ayat 46
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow."

No need to say anything more.
This was what our good neighbor Isa posted at the beginning and I take the liberty to repost it to bring back some perspective to this argument.

bugbear
17-01-2010, 09:48 AM
That is not what I said. What I am saying is, yes the Malay copied the Arabic word (common to all languages) and used it to refer to God in the Malay language. and you do understand that to the Malays (all Muslims) there is no other God, so they needed no differentiator for my God or your God.

it doesn't matter what it's origins are.

if you're writing a book in Bahasa Melayu, then the Malay word even if it's copied from an Arabic word, letter for letter, shouldn't mean it's referring to the Arabic word. what's the point of suddenly inserting an Arabic word into a Bahasa Melayu text? or use a BM word and then arguing it's an Arabic word?

why argue meaning of words with those who literally defined them for their language?

do you follow?

That is also what I meant by not arguing facts. it's beating a dead horse.
Totoro, the word Allah has it root from Arabic but it is not so widely used all over the world even in your Oxford dictionary. It also mean that English has now inducted the A-word into it vocabulary. It is a universal word my friend and anyone has the right to use it. In the Malay Bible or Alkitab, Allah is used in reference to God while in the Quran, Allah is the true name of their God. There is no confusion at all. And why it is not right not to use the A-word in the Alkitab? Throughout history we can see languages assimilate words from other language to complement themselves to be more accurate in their translation. Why not?

bugbear
17-01-2010, 09:59 AM
imo, the will lose their pride (a sin anyway), controlled their
base emotions and get nearer to their real God that no words can really
describe nor represent.

The principle is the same as forgiveness.
When one forgive, one let go in engaging the the lower animal brain
of the base emotions of anger, revenge, violence and all those negativities,
and shift gear to the higher mature human brain.

It would be the same if they give way, i.e. magnanimous.
I know it is just your personal opinion that Christian should just give in and things like that. If it like to give up my seat on a bus to another I would gladly do so. But what you are advocating here is just not right. Nobody tell me how or why I call my God in my prayer or worship except God. If you think that the Christians are cowering in fear at the prospect of bodily harm if we persist on using this word then you are mistaken. What the Christians should do is to rise up collectively in prayers and supplication to ask God for forgiveness and mercy upon those who are ignorant. In Timor Leste, Christian churches are being felted with stone daily. Some are even burn down. If we Malaysian Christians cannot even suffer just a little for God then we are not worth to enter into His Kingdom.

silver_bird
17-01-2010, 11:24 AM
MUST READ
High Court judge Datuk Lau Bee Lan’s 57-page judgment where she lays out the reasons and the laws behind her oral pronouncement.

Home Minister and government’s actions had been :-

# illegal
# unconstitutional
# irrational
# failed to satisfy that it was a threat to national security.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49845-four-reasons-for-controversial-allah-ruling

Justme123
17-01-2010, 12:16 PM
I know it is just your personal opinion that Christian should just give in and things like that.
If it like to give up my seat on a bus to another I would gladly do so. But what you are advocating here is just not right. Nobody tell me how or why I call my God in my prayer or worship except God. If you think that the Christians are cowering in fear at the prospect of bodily harm if we persist on using this word then you are mistaken. What the Christians should do is to rise up collectively in prayers and supplication to ask God for forgiveness and mercy upon those who are ignorant. In Timor Leste, Christian churches are being felted with stone daily. Some are even burn down. If we Malaysian Christians cannot even suffer just a little for God then we are not worth to enter into His Kingdom.I appreciate your understanding that it is just my personal opinion.
That is the critical point of what forums are about, i.e. freedom to express an opinion (within stated limits of course).

I understand your POV and you should do what you think is necessary.

USJ27Resident
17-01-2010, 05:09 PM
Some people, yes only some fortunately.

But as little as this people consider converts malay, as little they may consider converts muslims. they probably look down on converts while they consider themselves the originals.

just sad how a few people can bring down the image of their country and their religion...

Good one... yunno, considering everything - I know some "converts" who are better at their new found religion and beliefs than those "born into" their faiths. The way they practise and carry themselves can put the so called originals to SHAME!! I must say this statement covers all religions, Islam and Christians... :o

ivanhow
18-01-2010, 12:14 AM
For those who miss this special coverage by Al-Jazeera > Inside Story - Religious violence in Malaysia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV89G-wrgDQ&feature=player_embedded

who's right, who's wrong...u be the judgeAfter viewing the video from Al-Jazeera which I think gives a very clear understanding of how each individual group thinks, I personally think that our Malaysian leaders shud stop boasting to the world leaders that Malaysia is a 'model' Islamic country anymore.

On the contrary, Malaysia has a lot to learn from other Islamic countries like our neighbour Indonesia about religious tolerance. I feel that the other religions in Malaysia has been very tolerant towards Muslims, but when it comes to religious tolerance from the Muslim leaders in Malaysia, there's a lack of it. Look at what has been said by the political leaders so far. PAS leader has been more reasonable and tolerant.

It just doesn't bode well for Malaysia to keep telling the world that we are a model Muslim country, till we can demonstrate it within the country. It seems that these religious group leaders are the ones fanning religious intolerance among it's own followers. It is absurd, to say they are tolerant, yet do not demonstrate it. Moreso, it's based on unfounded fear of confusion to the Muslim people (in Malaysia), when the Malaysian Constitution does not allow other religion to preach to this group. They are already protected from being confused by the Constitution against any such fears, yet Khairul Faiz Morat (VP of International Affairs of the Malaysian Islamic Youth Movement) says that there is fear of confusion.

Sentinel
18-01-2010, 12:45 AM
After viewing the video from Al-Jazeera which I think gives a very clear understanding of how each individual group thinks, I personally think that our Malaysian leaders shud stop boasting to the world leaders that Malaysia is a 'model' Islamic country anymore.

On the contrary, Malaysia has a lot to learn from other Islamic countries like our neighbour Indonesia about religious tolerance. I feel that the other religions in Malaysia has been very tolerant towards Muslims, but when it comes to religious tolerance from the Muslim leaders in Malaysia, there's a lack of it. Look at what has been said by the political leaders so far. PAS leader has been more reasonable and tolerant.

It just doesn't bode well for Malaysia to keep telling the world that we are a model Muslim country, till we can demonstrate it within the country. It seems that these religious group leaders are the ones fanning religious intolerance among it's own followers. It is absurd, to say they are tolerant, yet do not demonstrate it. Moreso, it's based on unfounded fear of confusion to the Muslim people, when the constitution does not allow other religion to preach to them.
Biasalah... ayam telur sebiji, riuh sekampung! Penyu telur beratus biji, diam sunyi sahaja.
The only model Islamic country, in my humble opinion, is Turkiye or Turkey under the present PM Endorgan. :cool:

ivanhow
18-01-2010, 01:21 AM
Biasalah... ayam telur sebiji, riuh sekampung! Penyu telur beratus biji, diam sunyi sahaja.
The only model Islamic country, in my humble opinion, is Turkiye or Turkey under the present PM Endorgan. :cool:
Haha! kokoke... ;)

totoro
18-01-2010, 08:29 AM
a wise man once said. it takes 2 hands clapping to make noise. i thought we agreed to close this topic?

bugbear
18-01-2010, 08:41 AM
a wise man once said. it takes 2 hands clapping to make noise. i thought we agreed to close this topic?
Yes you are right totoro, you are the only one clapping alone here. :p

Nick Chia
18-01-2010, 10:23 AM
The 101 East debate was a reflection of three different views. The Pas member seems to support the fact that Islam does not only belongs to the malays only and the word in question have been used by middle east countries.

Marina remained nuetral by saying that one's faith should feel confident and therefore there is no hoo ha about others using the word.

The NGO member, insisted that the fatwa have banned the word being used for fear of other motives and misunderstanding.

To that the Pas member said that not all scholars of Islam have been consulted and therefore it is political.
In conclusion, marina said that malaysia have banned the bible being translated in bahasa malaysia and all translated ones are from Indonesia, one of the world most populace muslim country. She ended asking everybody to be rational and tolerant and blamed the AG for allowing this to go to court without knowing the consequences.

These three opnions indicate how vulnerable we are in and therefore it may be right for winners but in the end what good is it to win and loose our harmony which once we are proud of. To me get on with our life and think of how to survive this recession.

ivanhow
18-01-2010, 10:39 AM
The 101 East debate ... The Pas member... Marina...
The NGO member...
To that the Pas member...
These three opnions ...

...To me get on with our life and think of how to survive this recession.
Can you be more precise, any links?

Nick Chia
18-01-2010, 10:57 AM
I am not good at posting links, but you can try You-tube. Search for 101 east. or go to RPK.

Jey
18-01-2010, 11:43 AM
The 101 East debate was a reflection of three different views. The Pas member seems to support the fact that Islam does not only belongs to the malays only and the word in question have been used by middle east countries.

Marina remained nuetral by saying that one's faith should feel confident and therefore there is no hoo ha about others using the word.

The NGO member, insisted that the fatwa have banned the word being used for fear of other motives and misunderstanding.

To that the Pas member said that not all scholars of Islam have been consulted and therefore it is political.
In conclusion, marina said that malaysia have banned the bible being translated in bahasa malaysia and all translated ones are from Indonesia, one of the world most populace muslim country. She ended asking everybody to be rational and tolerant and blamed the AG for allowing this to go to court without knowing the consequences.

These three opnions indicate how vulnerable we are in and therefore it may be right for winners but in the end what good is it to win and loose our harmony which once we are proud of. To me get on with our life and think of how to survive this recession.

It was interesting to note the NGO getting upset and frustrated when Marina and Khalid were opposed to some of his views which he was overly defensive about. You could tell it from his facial expression though he tried his best not to show it by forcing an artificial smile.
:eek: :D

umadavid
18-01-2010, 11:51 AM
At least this guy was more articulate than the other guy who had the stack of script from which he was trying to get the answers from.

Jey
18-01-2010, 11:53 AM
Yes, I remember seeing that. I was thinking if he was an android preprogrammed to give the same answers over and over again. :D

silver_bird
18-01-2010, 02:50 PM
And now Minister in PM’s Dept, Nazri Aziz said non-Muslims in Penang, Sabah, Sarawak & FT are allowed to use the word “Allah”.
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49976-non-muslim-can-use-allah-in-three-states-fts

Hello, is this an official Govt's decision !!!

As one viewer question :
"How can state enactments be applicable in law if those enactments contradict the federal constitution? "

AllUrban
18-01-2010, 03:14 PM
The problem here is some people trying to appropriate the word and saying that it is their sole right to use it. Some people also go around saying, "Malay is Islam" "Allah hanya untuk Melayu, hanya untuk Islam". Race and religion do not mean the same thing. There are many Chinese, Indian and others who have embraced Islam as their religion of choice. If Allah hanya untuk Melayu then what about the converts. They certainly do not automatically become Malay the moment they become muslims.

Shallow understanding always leads to misunderstanding.Whenever anyone mentions that I simply point out that there are far more Chinese muslims in China and Indian muslims in India than there are Malay muslims in the peninsula

Sometimes I feel like they think they invented ...... er...forget it.


And now Minister in PM’s Dept, Nazri Aziz said non-Muslims in Penang, Sabah, Sarawak & FT are allowed to use the word “Allah”.
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49976-non-muslim-can-use-allah-in-three-states-fts

Hello, is this an official Govt's decision !!!

As one viewer question :
"How can state enactments be applicable in law if those enactments contradict the federal constitution? "He is the "De-fact-o-Law Minister" so he is effectively speaking with the Prime Minister's voice on this.

I can only imagine his instructions from the PM

"Here, Naz-r-i"
"Good Naz-r-i...very good"
"Naz-r-i, fix this problem for me and I will let you have as many approved permits as you could ever want.

Biasalah... ayam telur sebiji, riuh sekampung! Penyu telur beratus biji, diam sunyi sahaja.
The only model Islamic country, in my humble opinion, is Turkiye or Turkey under the present PM Endorgan. :cool: sigh...and even there they have managed to deal with an oppressive Military threatening to take over control if people/governments become "too" Islamic.

5 years ago I thought Malaysia & Turkey were at the same level of moderation (I took points away from Turkey because of the Military pressure but gave points for marching in the streets to protect their rights).

Now I think Turkey is far ahead of Malaysia....or is it that Malaysia has fallen back?

Cheers, m

Jey
18-01-2010, 04:14 PM
Flip-flip, flip-flip, flop-flip... so whats new with these jokers? :eek: :D

expat1609
18-01-2010, 04:15 PM
a wise man once said. it takes 2 hands clapping to make noise. i thought we agreed to close this topic?

hehehe, but one hand slapping a face makes the same noise ... :p

bugbear
19-01-2010, 09:51 AM
I hope this article (http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/122204) will enlighten all about this issue. :)

jimmyay
19-01-2010, 10:07 AM
It is pointless to talk to "katak bawah tempurung". The katak think their tempurung is the world cos they don't know or don't want to acknowledge the other side exist. Then they play by their own silly rules.

When you said it is maroon colour, they insist it is red. Then how to argue?

Nick Chia
19-01-2010, 10:33 AM
Whosoever create this mess is but a failed plot to divide the races. Now the world is laughing at us and the recent travel advisory on Sabah is just one of the fallout. For what they have started, they now have to reassure the world that Malaysia is still a safe country and the people live in harmony.

In a way, I am proud that majority of malaysians did not fall for the trap , which is to show that we have the inteligence to see the diference and not blindly follow the mob.

Syabas, Malaysia

currymee
19-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Read this article by M.Bakri Musa for a different take and point of view on the issue:

http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/breaking-views/49934-early-skirmishes-of-a-malay-civil-war-m-bakri-musa-

USJ27Resident
19-01-2010, 10:43 AM
It is pointless to talk to "katak bawah tempurung". The katak think their tempurung is the world cos they don't know or don't want to acknowledge the other side exist....

point taken:

as you've said - no matter HOW you describe or explain this - these (ignorant/recalcitrant bunch of) flers would just not WANT to hear or understand :rolleyes:

Rhiga
19-01-2010, 10:52 AM
point taken:

as you've said - no matter HOW you describe or explain this - these (ignorant/recalcitrant bunch of) flers would just not WANT to hear or understand :rolleyes:

And why and how these "katak di bawah tempurung" acquire such mindset?

With decades of pampered and privileged rights, it has evolved to a stage that they think and believe that everything is belonged to them and others owe them a living…..

Nick Chia
19-01-2010, 11:16 AM
Frankly, we need another barison for the ra'ayat to choose so that the country's constitution is preserved otherwise we will be getting knocks by the present gomen time and time again. Hopefully , we do not rot to the likes of Zimbawe gomen.

USJ27Resident
19-01-2010, 11:56 AM
Hopefully , we do not rot to the likes of Zimbawe gomen.

you'd never know - tmrw Najib grows a moustache like Mugabe - then we all are truly done for... :D

bugbear
19-01-2010, 01:40 PM
And why and how these "katak di bawah tempurung" acquire such mindset?

With decades of pampered and privileged rights, it has evolved to a stage that they think and believe that everything is belonged to them and others owe them a living…..
No, I think it is the ketuanan melayu thingy that they preach in their BTN courses. This embolden them in their illusion of grandiosity and thus their fantasy world of make believe. Their utopia if you may.

Rhiga
19-01-2010, 02:12 PM
No, I think it is the ketuanan melayu thingy that they preach in their BTN courses. This embolden them in their illusion of grandiosity and thus their fantasy world of make believe. Their utopia if you may.

KM is one of the symptoms of the side-effects of biased privileges and polices.

VeeJay
19-01-2010, 11:43 PM
This is another good read (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/k-anand/50053-a-letter-to-a-muslim-friend) as well. Just plain facts.

bugbear
20-01-2010, 02:06 AM
After seeing the aljazera debate between Khalid Samad, Marina and Yusri one thing that caught my attention is the myth perpetuated by UMNO all this while is that Malay = Islam. Guys, it is now out in the open that this is a myth and does that mean that article 11 (2) of our constitution is also a myth? One silver lining from this Allah controversy is the expose of this myth.

ivanhow
20-01-2010, 03:53 AM
...The NGO member, insisted that the fatwa have banned the word being used for fear of other motives and misunderstanding...


Isn't it sad...
That we must ban others from using something if we think it wasn't appropriate in our belief.
We might as well ban books on nuclear science in this country, because they have also caused man to build atomic bombs... Bulleh?

bugbear
20-01-2010, 08:15 AM
Isn't it sad...
That we must ban others from using something if we think it wasn't appropriate in our belief.
We might as well ban books on nuclear science in this country, because they have also caused man to build atomic bombs... Bulleh?
Somehow the ABIM guy talks in a rather defensive mode throughout the debate. Frustration is the word. :D

currymee
20-01-2010, 08:33 AM
And just to confuse the whole issue some more:

Malaysian states’ bans complicate ‘Allah’ issue

http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/50149-malaysian-states-bans-complicate-allah-issue

ivanhow
20-01-2010, 01:35 PM
And just to confuse the whole issue some more:

Malaysian states’ bans complicate ‘Allah’ issue

http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/50149-malaysian-states-bans-complicate-allah-issue
If there is intention of causing confusion among muslims then there is a valid reason to fear, but if it is just solely based on fear, then it is unfounded.

It's like carpenters who needed the hacksaw to do their work, but we fear these carpenters because they use hacksaw... Did they take the hacksaw to threaten others? So, that kind of fear... isn't it unfounded? Yet... :confused: Might as well stay within a super-guarded community, where they will not have a chance to be exposed (see, hear and speak) to such unfounded fear. This kind of fear is simply illogical and irrational.

bugbear
20-01-2010, 01:38 PM
Please this piece (http://www.thenutgraph.com/allah-and-the-malay-language) by nutgraph. It is not only hilarious that they now claim the Malay language for only the Malay only. Wahlao, like this there will be no end one loh. :eek:

ivanhow
20-01-2010, 02:03 PM
Please this piece (http://www.thenutgraph.com/allah-and-the-malay-language) by nutgraph. It is not only hilarious that they now claim the Malay language for only the Malay only. Wahlao, like this there will be no end one loh. :eek:

Going deeper, this convoluted intepretation shows there are attempts by certain quarters to 'colonise' others within the country.

bugbear
20-01-2010, 04:05 PM
I believe it is the UMNO trying to colonise the Malays for their own political expediency. This is no joke but one that have been perpetuated since the dawn of Malaysia. It is about time the Malays be liberated from this yolk of mental slavery foisted upon them in the name of Malay Rights and Malay Supremacy.

AllUrban
20-01-2010, 05:14 PM
I believe it is the UMNO trying to colonise the Malays for their own political expediency. This is no joke but one that have been perpetuated since the dawn of Malaysia. It is about time the Malays be liberated from this yolk of mental slavery foisted upon them in the name of Malay Rights and Malay Supremacy.This article is worth reading. The implication is that Malaysia does not have a strong middle class but rather, has a large working class (or 'lower-middle class' people struggling to stay afloat)

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29712:the-indelible-strategy&catid=16:from-around-the-blogs&Itemid=100132


A larger proportion of working class would mean that they are likely to be bogged down by the pressures of daily living and are too busy trying to survive. Thus, they would be so agitated with their lot that they have no time or energy to complain about the ruling regime.

Thoughts?

Cheers, m

USJ27Resident
20-01-2010, 07:10 PM
Somehow the ABIM guy talks in a rather defensive mode throughout the debate. Frustration is the word. :D

sorry dude... it is not frustration, it is just plain ignorance and stupidity that was quite evident.... this is what happens when one who is supposed to be studying in a university, spends so much time kissing arse and playing politics... :rolleyes:

the debate also goes to show that thanks to people like Marina and Khalid, not all are conservative, ignorant and plain stupid... i must say that day by day, I am beginning to admire this Khalid Samad a heck of a lot!!!

any more explainations/descriptions - and Kwchang is gonna DEEP FRY me with bananas... :eek:


This article is worth reading. The implication is that Malaysia does not have a strong middle class but rather, has a large working class (or 'lower-middle class' people struggling to stay afloat)

Thoughts?

Cheers, m

Main reason why people have no time to hit the streets... those that did probably are the unemployed/rempits that got paid in the first place... :rolleyes:

jimmyay
21-01-2010, 10:20 AM
Main reason why people have no time to hit the streets... those that did probably are the unemployed/rempits that got paid in the first place... :rolleyes:

This came into my mind... Mat Rempit - Motorbikes - Job opportunity - Pos Malaysia - Khairy

ivanhow
21-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Read this with a tinge of humour (http://drliew.net/). :D

Jey
21-01-2010, 03:36 PM
It may be a joke, but the similarity is spot on! :D

silver_bird
21-01-2010, 05:10 PM
Two suraus in Muar, Johor were damaged in suspected arson attacks early this mornng.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/50310-arson-suspected-in-two-muar-surau-fires

Another wayang Kulit or staged show ?

bobkee
21-01-2010, 07:17 PM
Mahathir's comments re: Avatar and 9-11 bears some relevance, eh?

Jey
21-01-2010, 08:16 PM
Two suraus in Muar, Johor were damaged in suspected arson attacks early this mornng.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/50310-arson-suspected-in-two-muar-surau-fires

Another wayang Kulit or staged show ?

We know these areas very well as we have relatives living there and I can vouch that these areas are predominantly Malay majority areas, over 90%.

Also this fact raises my curiosity level...


The Muar police chief said three youths from the area had discovered the damage at about 3am and reported it to the police.


What were the 3 youths doing there at 3 am?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

bugbear
22-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Here is an interesting article (http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=1&sec=&key=2014&cmd=resetall) from IKIM for you reading. Following is the summation by IKIM president Tun Ahmad Badawi, "...that the translation of Allah as God was factually wrong because it contradicted the concept of God as espouse by Islam in Malaysia."
I thought this is a Christian publication meant for Christian only, why is it that Islam concept must interfere in how we interprete our Bible and publication? :confused:

Jey
23-01-2010, 05:04 PM
Will be interesting to know who were the 4 culprits who attempted to arson the suraus and what were their true intentions.

wsp
23-01-2010, 07:22 PM
Will be interesting to know who were the 4 culprits who attempted to arson the suraus and what were their true intentions.

http://www.chinapress.com.my/content_new.asp?dt=2010-01-24&sec=malaysia&art=0124mb30.txt

The police had already caught 4 suspects and one of them was the son of a policeman. All are from Muar. Waiting to see what they will do next.

Jey
23-01-2010, 07:36 PM
Heard that they were also being charged under "mischief"category...while their true intentions could be much more graver. Since there was no retaliation for the attacks on churches, maybe this was done to look like a "retaliation" thereby eliciting another round of more severe burnings?

Jeyanthy
23-01-2010, 07:45 PM
Here is an interesting article (http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=1&sec=&key=2014&cmd=resetall) from IKIM for you reading. Following is the summation by IKIM president Tun Ahmad Badawi, "...that the translation of Allah as God was factually wrong because it contradicted the concept of God as espouse by Islam in Malaysia."
I thought this is a Christian publication meant for Christian only, why is it that Islam concept must interfere in how we interprete our Bible and publication? :confused:

From what I understand, their understanding of the A word is higher than God. God is meant for pagan gods, therefore no one can use the A word except them. Hence the A word cannot be God. It has a higher meaning than God as we know it. Get the flow...

Limiting God to how you believe only means He is not omnipotent or omniscient :D

silver_bird
23-01-2010, 10:15 PM
The police had already caught 4 suspects and one of them was the son of a policeman. All are from Muar. Waiting to see what they will do next.
Assuming the son of a Policeman is a Muslim and he damaged a Surau.
It does not make sense. What a joke !!!

Jey
23-01-2010, 10:22 PM
It does make sense when you look deeper.... :cool:

kwchang
23-01-2010, 11:27 PM
Heard that they were also being charged under "mischief"category...while their true intentions could be much more graver. Since there was no retaliation for the attacks on churches, maybe this was done to look like a "retaliation" thereby eliciting another round of more severe burnings?
Hear-say = rumours. As you know, we should not post such conjectures to any public forum because of naive readers taking things to be truth. This is very dangerous and we shall not allow for that.

Sorry Jey, double banana within a week means you get pisang goreng ... banned for a short period for double misdemeanor

ivanhow
24-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Here is an interesting article (http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=1&sec=&key=2014&cmd=resetall) from IKIM for you reading. Following is the summation by IKIM president Tun Ahmad Badawi, "...that the translation of Allah as God was factually wrong because it contradicted the concept of God as espouse by Islam in Malaysia."
I thought this is a Christian publication meant for Christian only, why is it that Islam concept must interfere in how we interprete our Bible and publication? :confused:


I'm amazed by the mindset of our exPM (who is now the current President of IKIM), in his statement reported in that IKIM article (http://www.ikim.gov.my/v5/index.php?lg=1&opt=com_article&grp=1&sec=&key=2014&cmd=resetall), and I quote:

Abdullah said IKIM hoped the followers of all religions respected the boundaries of their own religions so that unwanted incidents like what happened recently would not recur. It begs a question of reciprocity of respect and tolerance as equals of human creation. Is he speaking to remind 'the other religions', or to all religions of the world, or Malaysia in particular? :confused:

bugbear
25-01-2010, 08:55 AM
Here is another article (http://thenutgraph.com/church-survival-and-complicity) from the nutgraph. It is a very interesting read.

One passage I would like to highlight is this: Calling for calm, praying for the nation and retaliating with forgiveness are all "givens" in a Christian response. And these must continue. But is the Malaysian Church's instinct for survival getting in the way of holding government leaders accountable?

What do you think? I believe the churches response so far has been exemplary and full of forgiveness as befitting Christ's teaching. Going further, I beseech all Christian to show restrain and pray for God's intervention. I am sure God will deal in His own way. If I may go further, this issue with the Allah word is God divine intervention in Malaysia. We, the churches have been praying for a greater movement of God's Holy Spirit in Malaysia and indeed this is what we get. I have been praying exactly for this for years and today we can see the exposes of corruption in high places like never before. Take for example during Tun M era, I am sure there are corruption going on but was never exposed like what is happening now. This is how God deals with corrupt leaders and I am sure there are more to come in the coming days. ;)