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chin_wan
06-01-2010, 11:07 AM
Children who are spanked have lower IQs
Physical punishment slows kids' intellectual growth, researcher says

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33013187/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

I personally think this research is BS. What do you guys think? Do you spank your kids?

I believe each kids are different so different discipline method works for different kids.

I got spanking when I was a kid. Am I stupid now?

coleslaw
06-01-2010, 11:12 AM
i do not believe in spanking a child. that, to me, is child abuse.

QuietStorm
06-01-2010, 11:21 AM
i do not believe in spanking a child. that, to me, is child abuse.I don't, either. I let the wife do it! :eek: :p :p (kidding)

currymee
06-01-2010, 11:25 AM
I personally think this research is BS. What do you guys think? Do you spank your kids?

I believe each kids are different so different discipline method works for different kids.

I got spanking when I was a kid. Am I stupid now?

I got caned on the arse annually from Std 1 till Form 5 (for challenging prefects) and still end up as one of the TOP BOYS in school and got scholarship ... hahahaa .... :D :D

CS Chua
06-01-2010, 11:37 AM
Do not always believe everything the West tells you. Research and stats can be skewed towards anything you want. There is no scientific data to prove it. And spanking does not mean child abuse. Excessive spanking is child abuse. And spanking should not be the first resort. Try reasoning, and other forms of punishments like deny of rights and privileges (TV, comics, PSP, KFC, McDonalds, early bedtime, grounding, etc) If the kid is smart, he will learn fast.

zinglicious
06-01-2010, 11:46 AM
The missionary schools were famed for corporal punishment. but produced top students. Punishments were meted to create awareness and sense of wrong doings. The berani buat, berani tanggung rotan concept.
Of course, canning is a form of child abuse if is is done out of frustrations or anger instead of discipline the children.
Hence the canning with the marks of corporal and sergeant are enough to shame the children. Some teachers were deliberate to do the markings, so when students are seen with the promotion marks.
That is one of the reason why I chosen to come back from USA with my ABC offsprings. If I do that kind of promotion, I would ended up with the lockup . :D :eek: :D

bslee
06-01-2010, 11:53 AM
Personally I don't entirely believe nor will never resort to corporal punishment to my kids. Just say I thank Allah that I never had to resort to it in a serious manner in the past. Whoever you parents out there, I only pray and hope you do your best to ensure your kids become responsible and law abiding citizens ultimately, corporal punishment or not, YOU decide.

Jey
06-01-2010, 11:59 AM
There is a reason why there is a wise saying... "Spare the rod, spoil the child" :D ;)

bslee
06-01-2010, 12:03 PM
There is a reason why there is a wise saying... "Spare the rod, spoil the child" :D ;)

Believe it, there's just as many who'd know this but dismiss it entirely. I know of numerous children who're being constantly pampered by parents and the rod is entirely dismissed by parents.
Kids riding motorbikes without licence nor helmets whizzing around in out of town or rural roads...do you think they've been spared the rod or parents just being irresponsible?

Nick Chia
06-01-2010, 12:32 PM
I do not give my child fish, but I teach them how to fish. If they refuse I spank them so that they are focus, otherwise no fish , no food, all die.

bslee
06-01-2010, 12:36 PM
I do not give my child fish, but I teach them how to fish. If they refuse I spank them so that they are focus, otherwise no fish , no food, all die.

You all play with words lah!... If this is of any worthy discussion, offer real examples of current reality and consequences lah!.

chin_wan
06-01-2010, 12:49 PM
That is one of the reason why I chosen to come back from USA with my ABC offsprings. If I do that kind of promotion, I would ended up with the lockup . :D :eek: :D

That's one thing I hate. I just wish that the govt. would NOT interfere with how I teach my kids. I think teaching your kids is the parent's responsibility.

bugbear
06-01-2010, 12:59 PM
There is a reason why there is a wise saying... "Spare the rod, spoil the child" :D ;)
That quote is from the Bible mind you. Proverb 13:24 say, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."

I uphold the above principle in my upbringing of all my children. It may seem harsh to some but the reality is we must chastise them in LOVE. That is the big different between discipline and abuse. :cool:

zinglicious
06-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Thank goodness we are not in the era of Mao red army or Cambodian communist era where the children had the means to tell the authorities to punish the parents. :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

Nick Chia
06-01-2010, 01:02 PM
Okay b.s.lee, When my son went to college, he wanted a car so that he can be par with his friends, I refused and instead ask my wife to send him and collect him from college. Soon he found his way of getting his friend to fetch him.

After graduation, he wanted to stay overseas, I agreed and encourage him.
Today he is a senior man in a australian company. He bought his own house and sent monthly allowance to family. We visit him three times a year and he does the same.

They are so independant because we care. He wish that we could have spank him more. we did but softly out of love.

fRaNkY
06-01-2010, 10:24 PM
Should bring cane back to school.... less mat rempit and snatch thief

Still vivid memory of my Head master, Mr Harbajan Singh with his long thick cane....al he need to do is stand in the middle of the school with his cane.... suddenly, all quiet :D

Hiliary
07-01-2010, 12:19 AM
I spanked one of my kids about 15 years ago, never had the need to do it again.
My father was beaten with cane and belt without reason by his father, so he refused to hit me. Sometimes i wished he had.
I was caned at school, planked (bend over, name written in chalk on the back of the trousers, whacked with a small plank until name gone) none of it made any difference to me, my attitude or my outlook as the whole world smiles with me.

I lived in the US for a while, a friend was a very small man, who one day lost it and smacked his 15 year old across the face. The boy ran to the phone and called the child abuse hot line as american kids are trained to do, the police arrived within 10 minutes.
The cop looked down at the 40kg father, then looked up at the 90kg son and said "Son, call that hot line again and i will smack you"

If a kid turns up at school with bruises call the police, if his backside is red ask him what he did to annoy his parents.
Why does the rest of the world allow americans to dictate how we raise our kids??

USJ27Resident
07-01-2010, 02:03 AM
I personally think this research is BS. What do you guys think? Do you spank your kids?

I believe each kids are different so different discipline method works for different kids....

Don't spank the kids.... Spank the husband!!! :p :D

zinglicious
07-01-2010, 03:29 AM
A three year old niece of ex Mayor called 911 when she was abused. The cops came questioned the sister of the Mayor if there were any kid in the house. Then they proceed to questioned the kid which later revealed that she was indeed 'abused" of her rights - she was denied of the rights of freedom when she was punished by sending her off to her room for being naughty. She was taught to call 911 when and if she thought she has been abused by the daycare center. Just imagine what they really being taught at daycare there!
There are indeed of cases of child abuse by parents but somehow do the kids understand and differential actual abuses like sexual or excessive physical punishment in between discipline at that tender age? :confused:

blueginger
07-01-2010, 08:19 AM
Don't spank the kids.... Spank the husband!!!

Hahaha...good one... :p

Naka
07-01-2010, 09:02 AM
Kids need to be spanked if they are out of control. ;)

Blue Jasmine
07-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Kids need to be spanked if they are out of control. ;)


Total agree. Children needs to be spank to be discipline. Kids nowadays get everything they want. Parents nowadays like to spoil them. Simple things like giving them whatever they want. And always bribing them..like if you got 10 A u get this and that. And they got their own maid too...No respect for others and olders..and when they grow up what you think they become?

AllUrban
07-01-2010, 09:51 AM
I lived in the US for a while, a friend was a very small man, who one day lost it and smacked his 15 year old across the face. The boy ran to the phone and called the child abuse hot line as american kids are trained to do, the police arrived within 10 minutes.
The cop looked down at the 40kg father, then looked up at the 90kg son and said "Son, call that hot line again and i will smack you"

If a kid turns up at school with bruises call the police, if his backside is red ask him what he did to annoy his parents.
Why does the rest of the world allow americans to dictate how we raise our kids??Good story. Spanking when you cannot control yourself is not discipline, it is violence.

Seems that the small guy lost control but I cannot judge.

Size does not matter. Small people can be violent too. And that is the issue...not that a small person could be hurt, but that parents use violence as 'discipline' when there are other, better ways.

My mum was 5' tall, so I was taller than her and outweighed her by the time I was 10 ... but she had a powerful look that made it clear when she wanted something done. If that didnt work immediately she would raise the "wooden spoon" (half in jest, how could it hurt) and the message would be delivered.

Even now, m is 30 years old, 6'2" and 200lbs and mum will still give a gentle whack on the face to lovingly remind m who is the parent and who is the child.

That is discipline.

As for Americans dictating to the 'rest of the world' about how to be parents...that is really not the case. Americans do what they want. They have the laws that work that way. Many people disagree with those laws and spanking is a major topic of debate.

And even if we had similar laws in Malaysia, how many people would follow them? Who would enforce them and how would they be enforced? Let's be honest, here are laws against child abuse and domestic abuse but look at the cases we see regularly.

Cheers, m

AllUrban
07-01-2010, 09:56 AM
Kids need to be spanked if they are out of control. ;)And parents should never spank if they are not in control of their emotions. ;)

Sadly, some parents use spanking as a way to get back control...

Cheers, m

chin_wan
07-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Don't spank the kids.... Spank the husband!!!

Hahaha...good one... :p

That sounds dirty!!!


























I LIKE IT! :D :)

Naka
07-01-2010, 11:10 AM
And parents should never spank if they are not in control of their emotions. ;)

Sadly, some parents use spanking as a way to get back control...

Cheers, m

Agreed...parents have to be in full control of their emotions too.

QuietStorm
07-01-2010, 11:39 AM
There's sure a lot of spanking going on in here! :eek: :p


Don't spank the kids.... Spank the husband!!!

Hahaha...good one... :p
That sounds dirty!!!


























I LIKE IT! :D :)

yvonnefoong
07-01-2010, 11:50 AM
I haven't read the link posted but I do not believe in spanking children. It is not just IQ but EQ may be impeded because the child's brain development might be affected. When a child is punished harshly it produces fear and the release of cortisol. Too much cortisol and the brain will be overwhelmed.

As for disciplining children, I always believe social learning is the best. When children are naughty, look at the people that the child spents time with and the environment that the child is in. Look at the quality of the parent-child relationship too.

ie. Could the child simply be acting out its frustrations and unhappiness? Acting out is thus the child's way of sounding the alarm that something is seriously wrong. But when adults hits the child for it, we fail to recognize the child's desperations.

The problem about corporal punishment is that, to what extend is it healthy and to what extend is it damaging? The line could be very thin and varies from child to child. Dp we want to take that risk?

bslee
07-01-2010, 12:00 PM
From time to time, I've observed young mothers very harshly and loudly reprimanding their child who's roughly 3-6 years old. I wonder if the child can accept that kind of treatment. I suppose it comes from upbringing and family character they're like that and subject the child to such harshness for petty mistakes.

Rhiga
07-01-2010, 12:36 PM
If a kid needs to be punished so that he/she will not repeat such mistake and learn from the mistake, then punish him/her with judgement.

The key is DO NOT punish the kid due to anger/emotion. As correctly said by other forumer, this type of punishment is abuse.

Don’t worry about psychological effect or detrimental effect to brain, etc. Use your judgment and there is why it is IMPORTANT that do not punish kids when you are not fit or tired.

Ask anyone above 40 years old. Did they ever being punish by their parents before ?? Is it really bad that cause them to be psychologically disturb until now ?? Do they hate their parents because of the punishment ??

Parents love their kid and if they have to resort to punishment, there must be a good reason to do so.

Please don’t argue with me that there are exceptions like violent parents, etc. Of course, there are and those are not the loving parents I referring to.

jan tomaswaki
07-01-2010, 12:48 PM
We Asians,underdeveloping countries who punish children by using the hand or cane nor like the mat salleh who uses their mouth to shout aloud,During my cycling trip to S'pore on X'mas eve ,i notice a kid about 6-7 throwing tantrum to his mom in Takashimaya,his dad pull him by the side and lecture/reasoning with him only.If Asians"pow" on the face

bslee
07-01-2010, 12:50 PM
Factually, I had a very volatile father and I was reprimanded quite seriously, (won't go into awry details) even for example when my exam results dropped a bit, A WEE BIT I'm saying. Did I deserve such treatment, possible not.
Anyway, I didn't repeat such behavior or approach to my 2 sons but always thought best to apply with an entirely different and tactful approach. My elder brothers who I heard suffered worse wrath from dad have children of their own and they brought them up in the most caring and tactful manner (from my observation) which they now reap happiness in their relationship with their kids and grandchildren.

usehead
07-01-2010, 12:55 PM
DO whatever u like if he or she is ur child. But, absolute 'no-no' for my kids. Punishment is not the best form of education for children with good gene.

There are those who carry extra Y chromosome ie XYY, or XYYY that might need to be treated with punishment.

The results that one gets by spanking are unpredictable. But, by offering education in a non-hostile manner with the intention for gentle evolution in civilizing a child, the response is highly likely positive.

Two wrongs cannot make a right.

Spanking shows that a parent fails to control his or her emotion ie poor model for good anger/ acute stress management. Also, indirectly, teaching the immature beings that aggression and violence are the means to go if problems/ dilemma faced.

Spanking kids is sort of giving wrong attention at the wrong time.

The opposite for this would be to catch them doing things right and proactivley praise them on the spot eg able to spend some solitude time playing by themselves for an hour while we're attending to something else. This is kind of giving the right attention at the right time; in the right manner.

zinglicious
07-01-2010, 02:36 PM
Spanking to discipline children is different from abuse from raging parents or teachers. Here is one example of abuse reported in The Star today - http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/7/nation/5426111&sec=nation
What the parent did was with a hot iron on the kid and that is clearly not discipline. :eek:

chin_wan
07-01-2010, 02:49 PM
DO whatever u like if he or she is ur child. But, absolute 'no-no' for my kids. Punishment is not the best form of education for children with good gene.

There are those who carry extra Y chromosome ie XYY, or XYYY that might need to be treated with punishment.

The results that one gets by spanking are unpredictable. But, by offering education in a non-hostile manner with the intention for gentle evolution in civilizing a child, the response is highly likely positive.

Two wrongs cannot make a right.

Spanking shows that a parent fails to control his or her emotion ie poor model for good anger/ acute stress management. Also, indirectly, teaching the immature beings that aggression and violence are the means to go if problems/ dilemma faced.

Spanking kids is sort of giving wrong attention at the wrong time.

The opposite for this would be to catch them doing things right and proactivley praise them on the spot eg able to spend some solitude time playing by themselves for an hour while we're attending to something else. This is kind of giving the right attention at the right time; in the right manner.

Are you saying you don't punish your kids or that your kids has never done anything wrong?

Also, any views from the youngsters here? Do you think your parent's spanking worked?

yvonnefoong
07-01-2010, 04:59 PM
I should share this with you guys. My dad suffered a brain haemorhage when I was only 3. He was in a coma for one month at SJMC and when he woke up, he changed into a completely different person. For awhile, he was unable to take care of himself and when he got better, his temper was out of control. He'd yell at the slightest and he became unreasonable too. He could not empathize with people. His younger sister, my aunt, used to tell me how sensible a brother my dad used to be. He became Jobless and aimless since suffering the stroke and he still is.

Mom was unnerved and cooked up. For example, one day, as a kid I woke up from an afternoon nap. Seeing no one in the room. I got out of bed, squat on the stairs and looked out the front door to see if anyone was there. Suddenly, someone forcefully grabbed my arm, pulled me back to the room and threw me on the bed before continuously whipping me with a cane. I could still remember the rage in my mother's eyes and how she trembled wnenever she lashed at me.

I'd go through the scars that burned with my finger and wonder why was my mother so mean. Did she not love me? Why was I unloved?

Later, mom explained that it was because in her childhood, she was very cooked up as well. My grand-dad passed away when mom was only 7. Grandma became a vegetable distributor at the wetmarket and raised their seven kids by herself. Grandma was tired and frustrated, and who knows my mom was probably lashed at the same way she did to me.

In Developmental Psychology, we understand that aggression is repeated from one generaion to another unless the person consciously decides not to perpetuate the vicious cycle.

In recent years, I have been battling with deep seated disphoria and anger towards my mother. Mom tends to shout and her shouts come out as shrills. Several years ago, whenever she yelled at me, memories of my childhood would return and I'd yell back louder as if to drown her frightening image out of my mind. Luckily, mom has to care for me whenever I have surgeries these days so this helped heal the emotional wound.

Although dad is confused, unreasonable and demanding, but he never raised a finger at me. I heard dad was pampered in his childhood.

Did the abuse make me low in IQ? Maybe not now but I had trouble catching up in school when I was most unhappy at home.

I could have been a happier child, teenager, and now an adult. But I am making improvements by looking for ways to brighten my life and not let the past continue to have a hold on me. I am less angry now compared to the way I was two years ago.

This is probably the driving force behind my relentless fundraising campaign. I am used to running away from pain and fear so when I was diagnosed with NF, I very naturally want to pursue better treatments.

Even as I type this, I feel the dysphoria, my eyes grew heavy as if I had been crying for hours.

Hence, I will never ever agree to hitting children as a way to make them comply with how we want them to behave, because I know what it is like and I am living with the consequences.

All these are factors to my decision to pursue a career in clinical psychology. Because I don't want other children to have to grow up the way I did..

Mom is a good person. If anything, she is the victim of her circumstances.

AllUrban
07-01-2010, 04:59 PM
From time to time, I've observed young mothers very harshly and loudly reprimanding their child who's roughly 3-6 years old. I wonder if the child can accept that kind of treatment. I suppose it comes from upbringing and family character they're like that and subject the child to such harshness for petty mistakes.m once saw a father smack a baby to stop him from crying, at IKEA in Damansara. :eek: :mad:

wifey had to restrain m from grabbing the baby, handing him to wifey and then smacking the father in public (even though I know 2 wrongs dont make it right, I would have loved to ask him "how do you like it" as I.....er...ok, Im calm....) :mad:

instead I followed him for 10 minutes asking loudly what kind of man would slap a baby and then pointing to him. I think the message came across loud & clear.

Cheers, m

AllUrban
07-01-2010, 05:07 PM
I should share this with you guys. My dad suffered a brain haemorhage when I was only 3. He was in a coma for one month at SJMC and when he woke up, he changed into a completely different person. For awhile, he was unable to take care of himself and when he got better, his temper was out of control. He'd yell at the slightest and he became unreasonable too. He could not empathize with people. His younger sister, my aunt, used to tell me how sensible a brother my dad used to be. He became Jobless and aimless since suffering the stroke and he still is.

Mom was unnerved and cooked up. For example, one day, as a kid I woke up from an afternoon nap. Seeing no one in the room. I got out of bed, squat on the stairs and looked out the front door to see if anyone was there. Suddenly, someone forcefully grabbed my arm, pulled me back to the room and threw me on the bed before continuously whipping me with a cane. I could still remember the rage in my mother's eyes and how she trembled wnenever she lashed at me.

I'd go through the scars that burned with my finger and wonder why was my mother so mean. Did she not love me? Why was I unloved?

Later, mom explained that it was because in her childhood, she was very cooked up as well. My grand-dad passed away when mom was only 7. Grandma became a vegetable distributor at the wetmarket and raised their seven kids by herself. Grandma was tired and frustrated, and who knows my mom was probably lashed at the same way she did to me.

In Developmental Psychology, we understand that aggression is repeated from one generaion to another unless the person consciously decides not to perpetuate the vicious cycle.

In recent years, I have been battling with deep seated disphoria and anger towards my mother. Mom tends to shout and her shouts come out as shrills. Several years ago, whenever she yelled at me, memories of my childhood would return and I'd yell back louder as if to drown her frightening image out of my mind. Luckily, mom has to care for me whenever I have surgeries these days so this helped heal the emotional wound.

Although dad is confused, unreasonable and demanding, but he never raised a finger at me. I heard dad was pampered in his childhood.

Did the abuse make me low in IQ? Maybe not now but I had trouble catching up in school when I was most unhappy at home.

I could have been a happier child, teenager, and now an adult. But I am making improvements by looking for ways to brighten my life and not let the past continue to have a hold on me. I am less angry now compared to the way I was two years ago.

This is probably the driving force behind my relentless fundraising campaign. I am used to running away from pain and fear so when I was diagnosed with NF, I very naturally want to pursue better treatments.

Even as I type this, I feel the dysphoria, my eyes grew heavy as if I had been crying for hours.

Hence, I will never ever agree to hitting children as a way to make them comply with how we want them to behave, because I know what it is like and I am living with the consequences.

All these are factors to my decision to pursue a career in clinical psychology. Because I don't want other children to have to grow up the way I did..

Mom is a good person. If anything, she is the victim of her circumstances.Bless you Yvonne. If anything, you are perhaps the most human of humans that I have ever known.

Cheers, m

yvonnefoong
07-01-2010, 05:11 PM
m once saw a father smack a baby to stop him from crying, at IKEA in Damansara. :eek: :mad:

wifey had to restrain m from grabbing the baby, handing him to wifey and then smacking the father in public (even though I know 2 wrongs dont make it right, I would have loved to ask him "how do you like it" as I.....er...ok, Im calm....) :mad:

instead I followed him for 10 minutes asking loudly what kind of man would slap a baby and then pointing to him. I think the message came across loud & clear.

Cheers, m

Mark of an educator!

AllUrban
07-01-2010, 05:15 PM
Mark of an educator!or someone with strong emotions that have to kept under tight control.... :eek:

try to guess which one :D

Cheers, m

Blue Jasmine
08-01-2010, 09:59 AM
DO whatever u like if he or she is ur child. But, absolute 'no-no' for my kids. Punishment is not the best form of education for children with good gene.

There are those who carry extra Y chromosome ie XYY, or XYYY that might need to be treated with punishment.

The results that one gets by spanking are unpredictable. But, by offering education in a non-hostile manner with the intention for gentle evolution in civilizing a child, the response is highly likely positive.

Two wrongs cannot make a right.

Spanking shows that a parent fails to control his or her emotion ie poor model for good anger/ acute stress management. Also, indirectly, teaching the immature beings that aggression and violence are the means to go if problems/ dilemma faced.

Spanking kids is sort of giving wrong attention at the wrong time.

The opposite for this would be to catch them doing things right and proactivley praise them on the spot eg able to spend some solitude time playing by themselves for an hour while we're attending to something else. This is kind of giving the right attention at the right time; in the right manner.


i total disagree with you. Children need to be taught manners and responsibilty. As human we always wants to test out limits. Maybe this will work if your kids are super duper good ...not naughty...never want to try new things etc....but i believe spanking them will teach them their limits and their responsibility. Anyone want to share on how they respect their mother and father? Please do and give opinions on why do u think you will respect them. Is like you need to show them who is the boss in the house. Without that i dont think you can teach that. Kids nowadays are so cunning and smart. They learn to manipulate you just as soon as can. Some before the age of 1. Beware!!!

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 10:03 AM
or someone with strong emotions that have to kept under tight control.... :eek:

try to guess which one :D

Cheers, m

Maybe the years spent as an educator has trained you to keep your emotions in check. hehe... so both are factors.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 10:10 AM
Actually, what constitutes "misbehavior" is relative. For example, in the incident I shared above, I was merely being a child by waking up and wondering where was mommy. I instinctively got up to look for her.

But Mom saw that I was being unruly for getting up from bed and wandering out of the bedroom on my own.

If she knew that I was merely searching for her comfort, would she still hit me the way she did?

Unfortunately, mom like many parents thought children must be discplined by caning and the damages are here to stay for life.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 10:35 AM
There are those who carry extra Y chromosome ie XYY, or XYYY that might need to be treated with punishment.

I am not sure what you mean.

But I once visited a home for physically and mentally handicapped children. There was a young boy with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. The housekeeper who was an untrained old lady grounded him to his chair.

This was suffering to the boy so he acted out by yelling. The housekeeper charged at him, yelled at him, and hit him to silence the boy.

The boy did not understand why she did that and responded with even more yells.

It was neverending.

At that time, I still haven't started on my study of Psychology but the scene disturbed me. So I related it to the founders of the home who took action immediately and advised the housekeeper not to do that.

They actually have volunteer Psychiatrists from Penang GH who come and treat the children. But the helpers themselves are not trained.

I am not sure what you are trying to say but it is disturbing.

Would you like to explain?

mWong
08-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Years ago in Singapore, a Caucasian teenager was sentenced to jail and caning for vandalism. Despite all the appeals, the caning was carried out. I believe people have even called the Singapore Government barbaric for the caning.

Do you think he : 1) has learnt his lesson? 2) will vandalise again without thinking of the consequences? Do you think other teenagers will think twice about doing the same thing in that country?

When my children got caned for something that they know they shouldn't have done, I can tell you they do not repeat the mistake. They know the consequence. I also do not believe in dishing out caning for each and every misbehavior. Sometimes a reminder of what's going to happen will just do well to deter them from acting up.

Although I believe in caning as a form of discipline, I do not recommend it. Not because it is barbaric but I believe different child reacts to different 'teaching'. Unfortunately for my kids, they respect my cane more than they respect my trying to rationalise with them.

[QUOTE=Jey]There is a reason why there is a wise saying... "Spare the rod, spoil the child" :D ;)[/QUOTE
Yeah, when the rod is use wisely and sparingly, it is a useful disciplinary tool but when it's being used to release one's tension, that is physical abuse.

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 12:03 PM
When my children got caned for something that they know they shouldn't have done, I can tell you they do not repeat the mistake. They know the consequence. I also do not believe in dishing out caning for each and every misbehavior. Sometimes a reminder of what's going to happen will just do well to deter them from acting up.

Although I believe in caning as a form of discipline, I do not recommend it. Not because it is barbaric but I believe different child reacts to different 'teaching'. Unfortunately for my kids, they respect my cane more than they respect my trying to rationalise with them.
exactly the problem. Caning teaches people to fear the cane and fear getting caught and punished. But it does not teacher them that their action were wrong...or more importantly, why.

Meaning, they will still do the same thing if they do not fear getting caught & punished.

Law/discipline without education is worthless because it only works when there is enforcement.

But law/discipline with education has a far greater impact ... and requires less enforcement.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers, m

zinglicious
08-01-2010, 12:19 PM
If the traffic light is red, what seems to be our ration action? Certain people stop for various reasons. 1/ go and get caught -a/ summon or RM300 b/ go and get into accident 3/ go and you would be faster to reach your destination.
I think it apply to canning because sometimes the conscience might be rational if certain punishment is metted when we crossed the lineas we are 'educated" with such punishment if we get caught. But imagine if there is no punishment, children not just adult would go against the law. Just look at the current mindset of drivers where there is no cops to issue summon tickets for traffic offences. And just imagine for jumping the traffic light, not just Rm 300 fine but you get jailed and caned, would you risk it by beating the traffic lights? :eek: :D :eek:

Hiliary
08-01-2010, 01:24 PM
Years ago in Singapore, a Caucasian teenager was sentenced to jail and caning for vandalism. Despite all the appeals, the caning was carried out. I believe people have even called the Singapore Government barbaric for the caning.

Do you think he : 1) has learnt his lesson? 2) will vandalise again without thinking of the consequences? Do you think other teenagers will think twice about doing the same thing in that country?
.

Many americans supported the punishment.
Most americans had no idea of the value of the vandalism done by that kid.
He went to school in Singapore and knew the rules and the punishment, but as with all deterents it did not stop him.
After release from jail he returned to the USA and continued to make trouble, caught for dangerous driving, drunken driving, drug use, glue sniffing and beating up his father. The kid was/is a waste of space. Google Michael Fay.

Police caning was stopped in the UK becuase it was seen as barbaric and out of date. A typical punishment was 3 strokes with a birch rod. People who were caned spoke of extreme unbelievable pain at the fiirst stroke, and worse with each stroke. All said they would rather go to jail than be caned again, but the cane did not reform them.

No deterent reforms, if it worked there would be no need for jails.
Some people will always ignore the law, so why cant they be punished?

I saw an execution in China in 1981, bullet to the back of the head. The crime was stealing a loaf of bread.

In general, forget the mumbo jumbo and the do gooders who can always find an excuse or reason to explain someones bad deeds. If spanking deters just one young child from ending up caned, jailed or executed as an adult then i vote for spanking. By the time the child is an adult it is too late so why take the risk. Can you guarantee your child will be an adult who thinks and behaves the same as you?

But for myself, i still do not think physical punishment works with the majority of children, and has limited success with the "bad apple" minority. The only real deterent is a true sense of right and wrong, moral values and respect for others. Most will work this out, those that do not, cane them, jail them or execute them. I do not care because if they do not reform they are of no use to the human race.

I was 14 the last time i was caned, since then i have managed to pass the age of 50 without stealing, killing etc and have only spanked one of my three children once. I plan to not steal or kill etc for the rest of my days. Everyone can do the same - if they want to.

chin_wan
08-01-2010, 01:35 PM
I saw an execution in China in 1981, bullet to the back of the head. The crime was stealing a loaf of bread.



The death penalty is WRONG! It always gets me upset when I read that people are being put to death by the law, no matter how heinous the crime is, death is too harsh a punishment.

bslee
08-01-2010, 01:42 PM
The death penalty is WRONG!

I reckon there's pros and cons to this and depending on which country it may be the only deterrant. If not mistaken poaching or killing wildlife like the Panda in China will also incur the death penalty. Perhaps if not for that, Pandas will have pupus long time ago.

mWong
08-01-2010, 01:43 PM
exactly the problem. Caning teaches people to fear the cane and fear getting caught and punished. But it does not teacher them that their action were wrong...or more importantly, why.

Meaning, they will still do the same thing if they do not fear getting caught & punished.


Doesn't the fear of caning, getting caught and being punished will make a person fear to misbehave?

Coming back to the teenager sentenced for caning in Singapore. As a teenager, does he not already know that it is criminal, an inappropriate act to vandalise public properties?

Working on the scenario that he had been educated from young how wrong it is to vandalise public properties and yet persisted in doing it, what is the next course of action? Will it work better to continuously explaining the do's and dont's or let them know of a stronger consequence he will face the next round he misbehave? I vote for caning, anytime.

I want to say this again. I do not recommend caning for every misbehavior. Ahh, to have public caning for Mat Rempits and snatch thieves, pickpockets...

Jey
08-01-2010, 01:47 PM
If a child cannot be disciplined and deterred when he is still a child, there is more hope for a camel to go thru a needle's eye than to hope he will change and be better when he grows up. I have seen this happen too often and with too many children to know about it.

You cannot reason or debate with a child to influence him or change him. He has not developed his reasoning powers enough to know or appreciate what you are trying to do with him via this method. So at this stage, nothing motivates and influences him like the old fashioned cane.

If he has grown to a reasoning age, probably you can use other methods to gain influence but the moment parents lose their "Alpha" status in their household, there is no hope to ever mold him to be a useful adult.

So the Malays also have an excellent saying that goes "melentur buluh biar dari rebungnya". The Tamils have the same saying which when translated means "what cannot be bent at 6, cannot be bent at 60" I am sure there are many other cultures that share the same belief which seems pretty universal. The Bible says the same thing.. "teach a child when he is still small ... and he never forgets it till he grows old". When they are grown, its already too late. You have missed the boat. The ship has sailed. And you have no more hope. This is when disciplining seems to be "ineffective" as a deterrent. Reason is you are doing it at the wrong stage. Your fault, not the child's. These are the ones who turn up as Mat Rempits, petty thieves, vandalists and other criminals.

The only reason a child goes wayward is because he has not been disciplined soon enough when he was a child and given too much leeway to have developed into someone who is not easily scared by discipline. By that time, as the wise sayings go... it is too late.

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 01:50 PM
If the traffic light is red, what seems to be our ration action? Certain people stop for various reasons. 1/ go and get caught -a/ summon or RM300 b/ go and get into accident 3/ go and you would be faster to reach your destination.
I think it apply to canning because sometimes the conscience might be rational if certain punishment is metted when we crossed the lineas we are 'educated" with such punishment if we get caught. But imagine if there is no punishment, children not just adult would go against the law. Just look at the current mindset of drivers where there is no cops to issue summon tickets for traffic offences. And just imagine for jumping the traffic light, not just Rm 300 fine but you get jailed and caned, would you risk it by beating the traffic lights? :eek: :D :eek:don't forget two additionaly reasons...

4/ 'stop because it is safer' and

5/ stop because "God/Big brother' is watching you"

Cheers, m

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 01:56 PM
Doesn't the fear of caning, getting caught and being punished will make a person fear to misbehave?

Coming back to the teenager sentenced for caning in Singapore. As a teenager, does he not already know that it is criminal, an inappropriate act to vandalise public properties?

Working on the scenario that he had been educated from young how wrong it is to vandalise public properties and yet persisted in doing it, what is the next course of action? Will it work better to continuously explaining the do's and dont's or let them know of a stronger consequence he will face the next round he misbehave? I vote for caning, anytime.

I want to say this again. I do not recommend caning for every misbehavior. Ahh, to have public caning for Mat Rempits and snatch thieves, pickpockets...It still doesnt prove anything. What you are saying is that, there is no evidence that education works all the time but caning accomplishes what I want in the short term so I will cane.

For that one kid in Singapore there are thousands who did not spraypaint cars and cause vandalism because they know it is wrong...not because they are afraid of getting caught.

As for caning as a punishment (judicial caning) that is different from using the threat of the cane for disciple.

Judicial caning is a punishment sanctioned by society and practiced openly as a deterrent. Parental caning is an act of physical force practiced as a 'corrective' behaviour. The threat of caning is a deterrent.

Cheers, m

ps. caning and spanking are entirely different acts...that should be clear.

Hiliary
08-01-2010, 01:58 PM
The death penalty is WRONG! It always gets me upset when I read that people are being put to death by the law, no matter how heinous the crime is, death is too harsh a punishment.

Tell that to the mother of a murdered child.

So it's ok for someone like Manson to be fed and watered at the taxpaying victim's families expense? People like this do not deserve to live.

lady-o-leisure
08-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Never needed to cane my kids. As i see it, they hv never done anything to deserve a caning. When they were small, i dont bother yelling and screaming at them. I say what i hv to say with a stern voice, and if they dont listen, their fater would say it in a much sterner voice and everything was settled. They listened to reasoning. When they were naughty, they were asked to go to their room and stay there. That was upsetting enough for them. If they cried in their room, I'd just ask them what was the reason for crying, and they'd stop.

They never ran around supermarkets or restaurants or toy stores. Just explain nicely to kids.. and they will understand.

mWong
08-01-2010, 03:02 PM
As for caning as a punishment (judicial caning) that is different from using the threat of the cane for disciple.

Judicial caning is a punishment sanctioned by society and practiced openly as a deterrent. Parental caning is an act of physical force practiced as a 'corrective' behaviour. The threat of caning is a deterrent.

ps. caning and spanking are entirely different acts...that should be clear.

Not much of a difference between judicial caning and disciplinary caning by parents. Both involve physical force, the threat act as deterrent so same mistake may not be repeated, and it is also punishment.

I can also argue that knowing the consequence of getting a caning on top of being in jail helps in deterring such acts.

p/s: Got it, spanking and caning different acts. Not going into it or there will be a debate which works better. :D

chin_wan
08-01-2010, 04:14 PM
Tell that to the mother of a murdered child.

So it's ok for someone like Manson to be fed and watered at the taxpaying victim's families expense? People like this do not deserve to live.

I will not go into a long argument about how the death penalty is wrong as this will derail the thread.

I will only say this:

What if we wrongly convicted a person and send him to death? Tell that to the mother of the wrongly convicted person.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Never needed to cane my kids. As i see it, they hv never done anything to deserve a caning. When they were small, i dont bother yelling and screaming at them. I say what i hv to say with a stern voice, and if they dont listen, their fater would say it in a much sterner voice and everything was settled. They listened to reasoning. When they were naughty, they were asked to go to their room and stay there. That was upsetting enough for them. If they cried in their room, I'd just ask them what was the reason for crying, and they'd stop.

They never ran around supermarkets or restaurants or toy stores. Just explain nicely to kids.. and they will understand.

I once have a teacher, who taught me mental arithmetic, was like you. She needed only to say sternly but with a gentle voice, "If you don't do your homework, how will you improve?" with a serious face and all of us did our homework. The way she said it told us that she was serious and wanted the best for us.

I guess sometimes children rebel because they perceive their parents as inconsistent and unfair. It is also good that you and your husband were united and the children observe how you both treat each other, whether the treatment is consistent with the treatment that they receive from you.

AllUrban
08-01-2010, 04:39 PM
Not much of a difference between judicial caning and disciplinary caning by parents. Both involve physical force, the threat act as deterrent so same mistake may not be repeated, and it is also punishment.
agreed...but judicial caning does not happen because of a loss of control or 'in the heat of the moment'....

parental caning can and does happen that way...which blurs the use of parental caning as a discipline and correction tool as opposed to the use of force in anger.

Can a judicial caning be done in anger? Not in Malaysia, at least. Can a parental caning be done in anger? definitely possible.

for me, the long term goal must be considered over the immediate goal. For others, the (immediate) ends justify the means...

I do think spanking is a more reasonable way to discipline as opposed to the cane. And the 'wooden spoon' is the best above all :D

Cheers, m

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 04:51 PM
I will not go into a long argument about how the death penalty is wrong as this will derail the thread.

I will only say this:

What if we wrongly convicted a person and send him to death? Tell that to the mother of the wrongly convicted person.

At the mention of 'parents' to convicted criminals and 'parents' to their victims, I am reminded of this case.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/24/nation/4378903&sec=nation

Should the boy be jailed and for so long, for a crime that he committed as a juvenile? Why was the boy capable of murdering the girl in a rage at the tender of 12? From where did he learn to express his emotions through violence?

Could there be an unseen force that is keeping the boy in prison despite the countless appeals?

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 05:16 PM
If a child cannot be disciplined and deterred when he is still a child, there is more hope for a camel to go thru a needle's eye than to hope he will change and be better when he grows up. I have seen this happen too often and with too many children to know about it.

You cannot reason or debate with a child to influence him or change him. He has not developed his reasoning powers enough to know or appreciate what you are trying to do with him via this method. So at this stage, nothing motivates and influences him like the old fashioned cane.

If he has grown to a reasoning age, probably you can use other methods to gain influence but the moment parents lose their "Alpha" status in their household, there is no hope to ever mold him to be a useful adult.

So the Malays also have an excellent saying that goes "melentur buluh biar dari rebungnya". The Tamils have the same saying which when translated means "what cannot be bent at 6, cannot be bent at 60" I am sure there are many other cultures that share the same belief which seems pretty universal. The Bible says the same thing.. "teach a child when he is still small ... and he never forgets it till he grows old". When they are grown, its already too late. You have missed the boat. The ship has sailed. And you have no more hope. This is when disciplining seems to be "ineffective" as a deterrent. Reason is you are doing it at the wrong stage. Your fault, not the child's. These are the ones who turn up as Mat Rempits, petty thieves, vandalists and other criminals.

The only reason a child goes wayward is because he has not been disciplined soon enough when he was a child and given too much leeway to have developed into someone who is not easily scared by discipline. By that time, as the wise sayings go... it is too late.

To say that children have no reasoning skils, it supports the idea that they will listen to whatever you say innocently. Once you win their adoration and admiration, they appreciate your authority, they will listen.

I once worked as a pre-school teacher and it's amazing when kids react to their adoration for you by listening.

There were a few 'naughty' children who did not listen when they were told, bully other children, who were noisy and did not co-operate. One of those children was a girl with narcassistic personality. Her father was ambivalent. Even as a teacher, I could sense his ambivalence from the side.

Another chid was an angry child. Both her parents have careers of their own, work outside the home, her mom would drop her off early in the morning and rush off to work. That girl was only 2. She did not even want to be carried when we tried pacifying her.

To mold a child's personality, do it during their early childhood and do it without violence.

Jey
08-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Well, to each their own then.

Was just posting my own observations which are not only echoed by most wise sayings in different cultures but also the Bible which is a primary religious authority, especially for Bible believing Christians. I have seen the wisdom of early correction and as harsh or unacceptable as it may sound to some, the positive benefits it brings later on in their lives are something I have come to believe in.

Everyone are entitled to their own ways that they deem best. End of day, the consequences of how their children turns out are borne by their parents. You reap what you sow and you harvest what you plant.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 05:53 PM
Well, to each their own then.

Was just posting my own observations which are not only echoed by most wise sayings in different cultures but also the Bible which is a primary religious authority, especially for Bible believing Christians. I have seen the wisdom of early correction and as harsh or unacceptable as it may sound to some, the positive benefits it brings later on in their lives are something I have come to believe in.

Everyone are entitled to their own ways that they deem best. End of day, the consequences of how their children turns out are borne by their parents. You reap what you sow and you harvest what you plant.


Hold it! I actually echoed your opinion that to mold children we must start early. Did the religious text or wise saying mention how we ought to do it too?

Jey
08-01-2010, 06:04 PM
Proverbs Chp. 23

13-14 Don't be afraid to correct your young ones;
a spanking won't kill them.
A good spanking, in fact, might save them
from something worse than death.


15-16 Dear child, if you become wise,
I'll be one happy parent.
My heart will dance and sing
to the tuneful truth you'll speak.


17-18 Don't for a minute envy careless rebels;
soak yourself in the Fear-of-God—
That's where your future lies.
Then you won't be left with an armload of nothing.


19-21 Oh listen, dear child—become wise;
point your life in the right direction.
Don't drink too much wine and get drunk;
don't eat too much food and get fat.
Drunks and gluttons will end up on skid row,
in a stupor and dressed in rags.
Buy Wisdom, Education, Insight


22-25 Listen with respect to the father who raised you,
and when your mother grows old, don't neglect her.
Buy truth—don't sell it for love or money;
buy wisdom, buy education, buy insight.
Parents rejoice when their children turn out well;
wise children become proud parents.
So make your father happy!
Make your mother proud!

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 06:16 PM
Proverbs Chp. 23

13-14 Don't be afraid to correct your young ones;
a spanking won't kill them.
A good spanking, in fact, might save them
from something worse than death.


15-16 Dear child, if you become wise,
I'll be one happy parent.
My heart will dance and sing
to the tuneful truth you'll speak.


17-18 Don't for a minute envy careless rebels;
soak yourself in the Fear-of-God—
That's where your future lies.
Then you won't be left with an armload of nothing.


19-21 Oh listen, dear child—become wise;
point your life in the right direction.
Don't drink too much wine and get drunk;
don't eat too much food and get fat.
Drunks and gluttons will end up on skid row,
in a stupor and dressed in rags.
Buy Wisdom, Education, Insight


22-25 Listen with respect to the father who raised you,
and when your mother grows old, don't neglect her.
Buy truth—don't sell it for love or money;
buy wisdom, buy education, buy insight.
Parents rejoice when their children turn out well;
wise children become proud parents.
So make your father happy!
Make your mother proud!

Thank you for listing these out. The verses say that we need to discipline children and disciplining children is the main point.

What we were saying was that children at a tender age are more subceptible to correction. And that does not contradict the verses.

Hiliary
08-01-2010, 06:38 PM
What about caning in schools?
How do teachers react to children whose parents support corpral punishment in schools, or react to those children whose parents do not?

Look at how the armies around the world punish soldiers for minor offences:
Russia (as it was) used violence.
The UK uses humiliation (dressing down).
Which soldiers would you want protecting you?

Jey
08-01-2010, 06:55 PM
Thank you for listing these out. The verses say that we need to discipline children and disciplining children is the main point.

What we were saying was that children at a tender age are more subceptible to correction. And that does not contradict the verses.

Note also that the Bible is blunt and specific when it says how to correct a child. And it says spanking. It doesnt beat around the bush. No namby pamby, wishy washy, sugar and spice and everything nice kind of methods given. Plain old spanking means just that.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 07:51 PM
Note also that the Bible is blunt and specific when it says how to correct a child. And it says spanking. It doesnt beat around the bush. No namby pamby, wishy washy, sugar and spice and everything nice kind of methods given. Plain old spanking means just that.

I must admit that although I am Christian, I am not a fundamentalist.

yvonnefoong
08-01-2010, 08:15 PM
I was curious about the use of the word "spank" in the Bible so I did a google search. I found Proverbs 23 of the King James Bible.

Those interested may follow the link here:
http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/King_James_Bible/Proverbs/23/

It is interesting to read themes in the bible in context and in entirety, from top to bottom.

tupai
09-01-2010, 08:12 PM
spare the cane and spoil the child.

Irritating & noisy brats running around restaurants like as if it was a playground reflect the Bo-Ka-Si-ness of the parents!

i told 2 young brats to behave themselves in a restaurant and then i turned to the father (with his whole Bo-Ka-Si family including grandfolks) and said this " either you restrain your kids and have them stop knocking into my chair, or I will. And if u dont like it, lets step outside now!" :mad:

Yes, he commanded the kids to sit down. Thank Allah for that!

Yang Boleh Ka-Si latotupai

lady-o-leisure
10-01-2010, 02:19 AM
The method of 'stern reasoning' has to be started from very early on. It starts when they are babies. When babies cry, find out the reason, and deal with it, not just pick up the baby and rock like some roller coaster ride. Pick up baby, check and see what's the problem, handle it, then put baby back down to sleep. No more intrusions.
When the toddler cries, look him/her in the eye, get a clear one-on-one focus and ask what's wrong in a straight voice. The child will stop to focus and think of a reply. When a toddler is about to pick something up and put it in his/her mouth, don't scream and yell, but just call out in a stern voice to get his/her attention, then say NO, and give a brief reason as to why it shouldnt be done.
Keep at it constantly. Your child will learn to understand your facial expression and body language in no time.
My kids never moved from their seat in restaurants even tho their cousin ran around the private dining area like gila. They'd just watch coz given time, they will notice the waiters trying to avoid kids while carrying heavy hot dishes.
And now my son knows, no riding gear, no riding bikes. He had good sifus. He understands the consequences and risks involved.
There is no reason to scream and yell everyday at kids. It's not only stressful, the kids just learn to tune out. Then they do more silly things and end up getting a beating.

I use the stare and say nothing method with strangers' kids when they misbehave in public places. It stops them for a while. Most fml members use me when they need to control their kids coz i just say nothing and stare. ahahha... it's quite funny how they think i am fierce one moment.. then later on they know i am playful too. There is a time for everything. No need to scream yell and beat kids if u know what to do from the beginning.
I cant say my kids are perfect, but they don't give me unnecessary problems and they dont misbehave (much , hehehe) Kids do need to learn from their own mistakes too, so petty things are overlooked by me and they'll realize where they went wrong.

chin_wan
10-01-2010, 11:24 AM
^^ That sounds like a lot of effort involve...I'll just use the cane. :p

Jey
10-01-2010, 11:27 AM
Interesting I came across this in the Star today... http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/10/nation/5445190&sec=nation

The mother has to burn herself as she couldn't control her wayward daughter anymore. This is what I call harvesting what you planted.

Also look at Tupai's incident. Since that father failed to discipline his kids, the consequence was that not only were the kids threatened but the father too. Another classic harvesting what you planted.

The thing is this, You dont need to be a fundamentalist or a liberalist or any "list" for that matter. Heck you dont even need to be a Christian to benefit from the timeless wisdom of correcting your kid properly at the proper age, as most cultures around the world also hold the same view.

Maybe some kids are an exception to the rule, but they are few and far between. Also, having been well behaved thus far without the use of a cane, doesn't mean they will not show their true potential one day. Then it will be harvesting time again.

Fang Su
10-01-2010, 11:34 AM
All this modern-age pyschological mumbo-jumbo. The parents and children are psycho-analysed to death. I wonder how people of the past managed to bring up their children - and these children grew up to discover the great sciences and arts of the world.

My grandparents whacked my parents. My parents whacked me. I whacked my children. My children will whack their grandchildren. And so far there has not been any of us suffering from any of the "side effects" some of you have mentioned. If a person turns out to be rotten, don't blame your parents, your grandparents or your genes or that you were whacked or yelled at when you were young. Blame yourself. Do people ever take responsibility for themselves nowadays?

Fang Su
10-01-2010, 11:36 AM
The thing is this, You dont need to be a fundamentalist or a liberalist or any "list" for that matter. Heck you dont even need to be a Christian to benefit from the timeless wisdom of correcting your kid properly at the proper age, as most cultures around the world also hold the same view.

I agree 100%

Jey
10-01-2010, 11:41 AM
All this modern-age pyschological mumbo-jumbo. The parents and children are psycho-analysed to death. I wonder how people of the past managed to bring up their children - and these children grew up to discover the great sciences and arts of the world.

My grandparents whacked my parents. My parents whacked me. I whacked my children. My children will whack their grandchildren. And so far there has not been any of us suffering from any of the "side effects" some of you have mentioned. If a person turns out to be rotten, don't blame your parents, your grandparents or your genes or that you were whacked or yelled at when you were young. Blame yourself. Do people ever take responsibility for themselves nowadays?

Exactly Fang Su, its the new age "modern" psychological mumbo jumbo which is causing all these issues! Humans are trying to be too perfect.

I have 3 kids and I even have a cane in the car. I have several at home, upstairs and downstairs making it easily accessible whenever needed. And beleive me, it works like magic. :p

Sentinel
10-01-2010, 12:23 PM
I personally think this research is BS. What do you guys think? Do you spank your kids?

I believe each kids are different so different discipline method works for different kids.

I got spanking when I was a kid. Am I stupid now?
Chin Wan, like you I was whacked blue black by my Mum using a cane when I was a kid, many many times. As a secondary-school student, I was even subjected to 2 public canings for indiscipline and smoking...

My relationship with my Mum as I grew up was wonderful - there was no emotional baggage because she has always shown her love and care at the right time too.

I was also one of only 6 students from my school to have got into a good local university which was really tough in the late 70s for a non-Bumi after the NEP.

I believe that as long as the caning is done with a clear objective as a punishment for a specific indiscipline, it should be carried out. This is clear cut from an abuse. Spare the rod and spoil the child.

CASE STUDY

Now - to the "liberals" in this forum - watch this YOUTUBE VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U3GiEhBtiw) and tell us what would you do to handle the situation...

tupai
10-01-2010, 04:03 PM
....This is what I call harvesting what you planted.
Also look at Tupai's incident. Since that father failed to discipline his kids, the consequence was that not only were the kids threatened but the father too. Another classic harvesting what you planted.
...


'I am a lover not a fighter. And as Allah is my witness that in all my encounters I have never been the aggressor, and that my enemies have always been the authors of their own calamity"
~ loosely MISquoted from Timur the Great :p

Yang Berasmara latotupai :p

Hiliary
10-01-2010, 05:38 PM
Chin Wan, like you I was whacked blue black by my Mum using a cane when I was a kid, many many times. As a secondary-school student, I was even subjected to 2 public canings for indiscipline and smoking...

My relationship with my Mum as I grew up was wonderful - there was no emotional baggage because she has always shown her love and care at the right time too.

I was also one of only 6 students from my school to have got into a good local university which was really tough in the late 70s for a non-Bumi after the NEP.

I believe that as long as the caning is done with a clear objective as a punishment for a specific indiscipline, it should be carried out. This is clear cut from an abuse. Spare the rod and spoil the child.

CASE STUDY

Now - to the "liberals" in this forum - watch this YOUTUBE VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U3GiEhBtiw) and tell us what would you do to handle the situation...

About the same for me. By the time i reached 18 years we were good friends and the friendship got stronger every year. I could tell her anything, good or bad, and get good advice, a shoulder to cry on or even a smack at the age of 26 for swearing in front of her.
The day i left home and country my mom got upset and said she wished she had not been so strict when i was younger (very strict up to the age of 10). I looked at her in shock and asked if she was joking, and told her i knew i got what i deserved, and also used her strictness to my own advantage as a teenager, if i did not want to go somewhere, or go home early, or not drink so much i would just tell my friends "I gotta go home, told mom i would be home by midnight" My friends would smile as they knew her well (most of their mothers had the same attitude). Such an easy way out, that also kept me out of trouble a few times.

yvonnefoong
10-01-2010, 09:17 PM
The method of 'stern reasoning' has to be started from very early on. It starts when they are babies. When babies cry, find out the reason, and deal with it, not just pick up the baby and rock like some roller coaster ride. Pick up baby, check and see what's the problem, handle it, then put baby back down to sleep. No more intrusions.
When the toddler cries, look him/her in the eye, get a clear one-on-one focus and ask what's wrong in a straight voice. The child will stop to focus and think of a reply. When a toddler is about to pick something up and put it in his/her mouth, don't scream and yell, but just call out in a stern voice to get his/her attention, then say NO, and give a brief reason as to why it shouldnt be done.
Keep at it constantly. Your child will learn to understand your facial expression and body language in no time.
My kids never moved from their seat in restaurants even tho their cousin ran around the private dining area like gila. They'd just watch coz given time, they will notice the waiters trying to avoid kids while carrying heavy hot dishes.
And now my son knows, no riding gear, no riding bikes. He had good sifus. He understands the consequences and risks involved.
There is no reason to scream and yell everyday at kids. It's not only stressful, the kids just learn to tune out. Then they do more silly things and end up getting a beating.

I use the stare and say nothing method with strangers' kids when they misbehave in public places. It stops them for a while. Most fml members use me when they need to control their kids coz i just say nothing and stare. ahahha... it's quite funny how they think i am fierce one moment.. then later on they know i am playful too. There is a time for everything. No need to scream yell and beat kids if u know what to do from the beginning.
I cant say my kids are perfect, but they don't give me unnecessary problems and they dont misbehave (much , hehehe) Kids do need to learn from their own mistakes too, so petty things are overlooked by me and they'll realize where they went wrong.

You remind me of my aunt, one of my mother's sister who is a nurse. in the UK! When my cousins and I were little, she used to take us out for meals in KL. When she disapproved of something, she made it clear by staring and not saying anything.

One time, we were at a coffeeshop when someone came to our table with a bunch of keychains trying to sell us something. One of my cousin brother who was barely 10, got up and picked a keychain as if he was going to buy it. But he had no money, his parents weren't arround and he did not get permission. So my aunt stared not at him, but straight ahead without moving or responding to the commottion and my cousin got the message. He sat back down without a word. I, watching at the side, was amazed!

Now my aunt has brought up her grandson, my nephew, herself. The boy's a few years old and one of the most well behaved and sensitive child I have ever known.

As to your explanation of attenting to a crying child - baby or toddle - and find out what's the matter, I understand and agree. It tells the child that you take him or her seriously.

I remember when I was a toddler, I tend to wake up and cry for mom. I was probably hungry or scared, and if she didn't come, my cries increase in volume. When the same repeats itself when I cry in the future and met with no response again, it became a habit.

This means, being responsive to crying children actually teaches them not to cry. Being responsive tells children that mommy and daddy will be here when they are afraid, so not to worry.

The effects of this was evident in my teenage years. Even as a teenager, I continued to call for mom and if she didn't respond or pay attention, my calls increase in volume. Deep down, I knew that it was inappropriate to do so, but my early childhood experiences had cultivated and ingrained that habit. I was easily distressed

I only learned not to do so in recent years when I realized something called 'personal boundaries'. The moment I become aware of my personal boundary, I also learneed to feel secure on my own and do not need another person to help me feel secure.

But young children at their age are still dependent on their carers and parents to feel secure. That's why when children cry and their cries are ignored, they cry louder. Because they perceive it as rejection.

yvonnefoong
10-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention this bit.

After my cousin brother chose the keychain that he preferred, he looked at my aunt and searched her face for signs of approval. But she maintained the same straight face throughout and my cousin realized that it's not negiotiablle so he did not whine or plead.

yvonnefoong
10-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Okay b.s.lee, When my son went to college, he wanted a car so that he can be par with his friends, I refused and instead ask my wife to send him and collect him from college. Soon he found his way of getting his friend to fetch him.

After graduation, he wanted to stay overseas, I agreed and encourage him.
Today he is a senior man in a australian company. He bought his own house and sent monthly allowance to family. We visit him three times a year and he does the same.

They are so independant because we care. He wish that we could have spank him more. we did but softly out of love.


That's interesting. You said "no" and still responded to your son, but not in the way he wanted. Reminds me of a saying among Christians which implies this, in my own words, "God answers our prayers according to His will. It may not be when or how we wanted it but He listens and responds."

Rhiga
11-01-2010, 10:19 AM
If a child cannot be disciplined and deterred when he is still a child, there is more hope for a camel to go thru a needle's eye than to hope he will change and be better when he grows up. I have seen this happen too often and with too many children to know about it.

You cannot reason or debate with a child to influence him or change him. He has not developed his reasoning powers enough to know or appreciate what you are trying to do with him via this method. So at this stage, nothing motivates and influences him like the old fashioned cane.

This is the most sensible explanation.

As I said, parents love their kid(s) and would not resort to punishment if it is not necessary.

Examples cited from some forummers on bad childhood due to volatile parents are not the “punishment” that I refer to.

Their parents punished them because of anger, emotion and when they were tired physically and mentally because of house chores and financials..etc

I would like to emphasize again, never discipline kid when you are stressful or tired.

Justme123
11-01-2010, 10:30 AM
Not sure if anyone posted this alternative view.

"Smacked children more successful later in life;
study finds Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier
and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests. "
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html)

I personally do not agree with canning.
I would prefer non-physical penalties like sitting in one corner, reducing TV time, games, the likes
and explaining why they have done wrong.

I think both methods have their pros and cons
as effectiveness would depend on the psychological make-up of the individual child.

Jey
11-01-2010, 11:28 AM
"Smacked children more successful later in life;
study finds Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier
and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests. "
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html)

Its little wonder and hardly surprising. There must be a reason why this timeless wisdom is shared by many which transcends time, religious, racial and cultural divide. Something that has stood the test of time and boundaries.

The Book for Proverbs where it speaks of spanking the children were written By King Solomon and others more than 1000 years before Christ, so that makes it at least 3000 years old. From that time until now, little has changed on how to discipline your kids. So I believe that this principle will remain even 3000 years from now. :)

Justme123
11-01-2010, 12:05 PM
Its little wonder and hardly surprising. There must be a reason why this timeless wisdom is shared by many which transcends time, religious, racial and cultural divide. Something that has stood the test of time and boundaries.

The Book for Proverbs where it speaks of spanking the children were written By King Solomon and others more than 1000 years before Christ, so that makes it at least 3000 years old. From that time until now, little has changed on how to discipline your kids. So I believe that this principle will remain even 3000 years from now. :)Unfortunately, there is some truth in the research for the majority.
But i don't think it should be permanent for eternity as humanity is making incremental progress in every aspect of life.

One good analogy is to compare the trend in modern management and leadership styles which range from Dictatorial, Autocratic, Participative to
easy going Laissez Faire.

In the olden days, dictorial and autocratic styles may even include physical punishment of followers, but these styles has are fading in developing countries. There is now an increase in participative and situational styles of leadership and management.

imo, similar incremental change will occur to parental style in the future, maybe not in the near future but a bit further.

Jey
11-01-2010, 01:29 PM
So I believe that this principle will remain even 3000 years from now.

This is my opinion since everyone is entitled to one. Any prediction of future actions are not factual and pure speculation.
No one can predict the future and neither can I. Heck, who can tell even if we are all here tomorrow? Nevertheless I can form my beliefs and opinions based on my own world-views. My opinions are mine and they are not binding on anyone. Likewise, what you think is your own opinion and its are not binding on me.

Like I said, to each their own. :D

yvonnefoong
11-01-2010, 09:02 PM
Not sure if anyone posted this alternative view.

"Smacked children more successful later in life;
study finds Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier
and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests. "
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html)

I personally do not agree with canning.
I would prefer non-physical penalties like sitting in one corner, reducing TV time, games, the likes
and explaining why they have done wrong.

I think both methods have their pros and cons
as effectiveness would depend on the psychological make-up of the individual child.

If I have children in the future, I won't care if they are successful as long as they are happy and at peace with themselves. At the end of the day, success is relative. To a monk, being able to maintain the peace of mind in the face of great temptations and achieve Nirvana is an achievement and success, but to another person nothing is ever enough. Hence, I rather my children just be happy and be comfortable in their own skin.

As a future parent, I will be sorry for myself if my children cannot be good unless I smack or spank them. Something must be seriously wrong and I need to reflect too.

As for spanking being tried and proven, I like to think that humanity and culture are constantly changing. This gives us hope that each new day can be better than the day before. In the past, spanking might be neccessary because children were more isolated, but today a child is far more exposed. There are so many more environmental infliuences these days that shape our personality. The best example would be Supermar and Robin Hood. Children can learn self-determination, righteousness and compassion for the poor through social learning and by watching cartoons. But in the past, their parents were all children had in order to understand life and the world. Children today have more ways of learning things themselves.

Jey
11-01-2010, 10:26 PM
If I have children in the future, I won't care if they are successful as long as they are happy and at peace with themselves.

If one were to take a drive in the Chow Kit areas, some of the notorious places in the alleys are the hot spots where the drug addicts gather and inject themselves with their quick fixes. If you looked at their lifestyle, its hardly anything but successful. But heck, they are happy and at peace once they had had their fixes. :p

It makes me wonder, if its the same attitude of their parents which drove them to their state in life. But knowing what I know now, I dont have the slightest doubt.

lady-o-leisure
12-01-2010, 01:53 AM
If I have children in the future, I won't care if they are successful as long as they are happy and at peace with themselves. At the end of the day, success is relative. To a monk, being able to maintain the peace of mind in the face of great temptations and achieve Nirvana is an achievement and success, but to another person nothing is ever enough. Hence, I rather my children just be happy and be comfortable in their own skin.

As a future parent, I will be sorry for myself if my children cannot be good unless I smack or spank them. Something must be seriously wrong and I need to reflect too.

As for spanking being tried and proven, I like to think that humanity and culture are constantly changing. This gives us hope that each new day can be better than the day before. In the past, spanking might be necessary because children were more isolated, but today a child is far more exposed. There are so many more environmental infiuences these days that shape our personality. The best example would be Superman and Robin Hood. Children can learn self-determination, righteousness and compassion for the poor through social learning and by watching cartoons. But in the past, their parents were all children had in order to understand life and the world. Children today have more ways of learning things themselves.

Yvonne has a point.
What's the use of a really successful person who was pressured into excelling and then lives an unhappy life? People need to search deep into themselves from a tender age. They should be guided while being allowed to grow as a person, and good guidance doesn't require physical abuse if you teach them well and keep them in a good environment.


Posted by Jey

If one were to take a drive in the Chow Kit areas, some of the notorious places in the alleys are the hot spots where the drug addicts gather and inject themselves with their quick fixes. If you looked at their lifestyle, its hardly anything but successful. But heck, they are happy and at peace once they had had their fixes.

It makes me wonder, if its the same attitude of their parents which drove them to their state in life. But knowing what I know now, I dont have the slightest doubt.

Those were not happy kids to start with. They were peobably neglected or misguided. They are probably rebelling as well. Were they brought up in a good environment? What did they hv to face daily as a child? There are loads of very successful adults out there in the corporate world who are shooting up narcotics too, but they do it discreetly.
What's the difference between them? One looks all filthy and drugged out while the other is clean-cut, well dressed and still drugged out/boozed out.

No one can really say all drug addicts out there are losers/bad/disgusting coz i hv seen some who are successful. Not every successful corporate soldier out there is a good or happy person either. Billions of people in the world and they are all NOT alike. U can even bring up 2 kids in the same manner and they could turn out to be entirely different in character and lead different lifestyles later on.

Jey
12-01-2010, 09:24 AM
They were peobably neglected or misguided.

Well, thats the exact point when we say "Spare the rod and spoil the child". This is the cause, and the effect is you have a problem kid. Its a matter of cause and effect. No matter how the facts are twisted and turned, and looked from whatever perspective, the bottom line is this.

Rhiga
12-01-2010, 10:16 AM
A forumer said very correctly – do what u think is right to you kid as you are the parents and you want him to have a happy life later.

“Happy life” is a complicated and big word and one of the prerequisite to be happy is to learn the right value in childhood.

I believe there is kid who is super duper which can be guided just by merely advice without a single need of spanking.

But I also believe this is rare and cannot be planned. If there is a need to discipline the kid, then he has to be disciplined because at the end of the day, parents are responsible for the value development of the kid.

My experience as a father and uncle ( I have more than 1 dozen of cousins- from mother and father side) tells me almost all of them need to discipline their kids and they stop spanking or less in spanking the kid after the kids are maturely develop to grasp value/advice.

Justme123
12-01-2010, 10:54 AM
If I have children in the future, I won't care if they are successful as long as they are happy and at peace with themselves. At the end of the day, success is relative. To a monk, being able to maintain the peace of mind in the face of great temptations and achieve Nirvana is an achievement and success, but to another person nothing is ever enough. Hence, I rather my children just be happy and be comfortable in their own skin.

As a future parent, I will be sorry for myself if my children cannot be good unless I smack or spank them. Something must be seriously wrong and I need to reflect too.

As for spanking being tried and proven, I like to think that humanity and culture are constantly changing. This gives us hope that each new day can be better than the day before. In the past, spanking might be neccessary because children were more isolated, but today a child is far more exposed. There are so many more environmental infliuences these days that shape our personality. The best example would be Supermar and Robin Hood. Children can learn self-determination, righteousness and compassion for the poor through social learning and by watching cartoons. But in the past, their parents were all children had in order to understand life and the world. Children today have more ways of learning things themselves.Agree.

Parenting skills are not easy to apply as the
variables are very extensive.
I guess if we apply the optimal level of parenting, i.e.
being aware of all the options and applying the appropriate
then hope for the best.

Fortunately for there is hope for humanity in the future, our motor neurons and prefrontal cortex are developing progressively, albeit quite slowly.

Jey
12-01-2010, 10:56 AM
Yes, bottom line is its up to you how you bring your child up. Because its not anyone else who are going to face the consequences. Like I said, you harvest what you plant. Not someone else. You cannot run away from the law of cause and effect. Besides, if everyone spanked their kids and they all grew up good, proper, happy and successful, then it would be too perfect a world to live in, wouldn't it? You need all kinds to make this world interesting. There must be a balance. Only then the positive elements are accentuated by the presence of negative elements. With that I dont have anything more to add to this discussion in this thread.

So I will leave this to the "fundamentalists" and the "liberalists" in this thread to argue it out till the cows come home. Or until the fat mama sings. As for me, I am going off to do my parenting duties.

Now where did I leave that $&$^&$^ cane??? :D :D :D

Nick Chia
12-01-2010, 11:59 AM
This is a true on going story I must share. - My wife have a younger sister who was given away to her auntie. She grew up dutifully but her mother passed away when she was married to a good for nothing man. They have three kids. Instead of going to school the father took them to the streets to collect emptied aluminum cans and plastic bottles.
They were so poor and malnutritions that each time they visited my wife's workplace , she feeds them generously. We offered to take them and house them and educate them. However the father (jobless) still collecting scraps refused. The kids ,two daughters and a son stops education.

The eldest daughter got married at 19 out of wedlock. The son is still helping the father.

In today's Sin Chew, you will see a parent asking for the return of his daughter who have gone missing , thats the youngest daughter. Don't be fooled , the innocent looking man with mca is the culprit who do not care two hoods about his childrens.

Apparently, the daughter eloped with an indonesian man out of frustration to get proper meals.

This is a classic case of a selfish family who destroyed his children. Please do not help as it a ploy for the parents to gain sympathy and donations.

The previous donations highted many years ago enriched the parents and nothing goes to the children. I may sound heartless but there is nothing we can do to save the children. We have given monetary help and this man just do not want to work. So we check the man's background and found out that he is a pampered child and now a monster. So do use cane to a child for his betterment when young, a big YES.

AllUrban
12-01-2010, 12:05 PM
So I will leave this to the "fundamentalists" and the "liberalists" in this thread to argue it out till the cows come home. Or until the fat mama sings. As for me, I am going off to do my parenting duties.

Now where did I leave that $&$^&$^ cane??? :D :D :Dhahaha what about the economists?

Research says that if parents provide 3 things, they do not have to worry about their kids.

1) Provide them with attention - do not neglect your children but do not overstimulate them

2) Provide them with love - let them know that they are loved and show them love (between father & mother, husband & wife)

3) Provide them with enough food.

Everything else works itself out.

Cheers, m

yvonnefoong
12-01-2010, 02:23 PM
If one were to take a drive in the Chow Kit areas, some of the notorious places in the alleys are the hot spots where the drug addicts gather and inject themselves with their quick fixes. If you looked at their lifestyle, its hardly anything but successful. But heck, they are happy and at peace once they had had their fixes. :p

It makes me wonder, if its the same attitude of their parents which drove them to their state in life. But knowing what I know now, I dont have the slightest doubt.

Social problems such as drug addiction should be addressed in its own right. In countries like the US and Britain have specific policies and programs to deal with and prevent them.

Malaysia does not have such social policies to protect and support our people.

I don't think we should spank and smack children to prevent them from becoming drug addicts. This is avoiding the underlying causes, denying that deeper problem exist, and without tackling the core of the problem.

For instance, people may turn to drugs for feelings of euphoria as a mental escape. They may be stressed from trying to earn enough to spport the family, dealing with a failing marriage, receiving undue pressure from parents to excell in school and sports, or find domestic disputes unbearable.

their underlying issues should be addressed. We as a society can prevent many of these problems by introducing programs to support people socio-economically.

I actually have a cousin who was diagnosed with Schizophrenia in recent years. She was given anti-depressabts and anti-mania medications. She was delusional and confused, and she started to smoke (narcotics addiction) as a temporary relief. She did not like staying home and would take public transport to visit me to stay overnight here. She has two brothers and she was the middle child. During the early stages of her illness, she used to talk to herself and say things like, "What's so good about having boys? Girls are better, girls are so good.".

Some of you might say, the problem was within her, cannot blame the parents.

What I am trying to say is we need to tackle core issues and not simply spank children in the hopes that doing so will prevent future problems.

my cousin was evidently not happy at home. But if we refuse to address or admit that, her disorder will not be relieved and it might even get worse.

Drug addiction is not the problem, it is a symptom of bigger problems.

Fang Su
12-01-2010, 07:18 PM
Yes, bottom line is its up to you how you bring your child up. Because its not anyone else who are going to face the consequences. Like I said, you harvest what you plant. Not someone else. You cannot run away from the law of cause and effect. Besides, if everyone spanked their kids and they all grew up good, proper, happy and successful, then it would be too perfect a world to live in, wouldn't it? You need all kinds to make this world interesting. There must be a balance. Only then the positive elements are accentuated by the presence of negative elements. With that I dont have anything more to add to this discussion in this thread.

So I will leave this to the "fundamentalists" and the "liberalists" in this thread to argue it out till the cows come home. Or until the fat mama sings. As for me, I am going off to do my parenting duties.

Now where did I leave that $&$^&$^ cane??? :D :D :D

I agree with you. There are too many mollycoddlers around. To them, everything is relative. So if my son is an imbecile but compared to the donkey, he is still intelligent. Relative mah. So everything is cool. I think I would prefer the physical pain of the cane than being psychologically tortured by people playing mind games with me by giving me the silent treatment and staring at me or staring at a point two feet above my head until I break down.

:)

Jey
12-01-2010, 07:50 PM
I agree with you. There are too many mollycoddlers around. To them, everything is relative. So if my son is an imbecile but compared to the donkey, he is still intelligent. Relative mah. So everything is cool. I think I would prefer the physical pain of the cane than being psychologically tortured by people playing mind games with me by giving me the silent treatment and staring at me or staring at a point two feet above my head until I break down.

:)

Agree Fang Su. Though you have written little, what you have written shows intellect and not blind emotions.

In fact, the point you have brought up is true. The emotional pain and scars of psychological torture can even be more damaging and long lasting than the physical pain of being caned which lasts but for a moment. Ever wonder why there are cuckoo asylums around?

Nick Chia
22-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Today's Star reported that a medical student 20, back on holiday whacked his father who have recently had a by-pass ,for refusing to give him 1 million.
The student was arrested and out on bail, while the father suffered a broken finger.

So go ahead don't spank your kids.

Naka
22-01-2010, 10:43 AM
Today's Star reported that a medical student 20, back on holiday whacked his father who have recently had a by-pass ,for refusing to give him 1 million.
The student was arrested and out on bail, while the father suffered a broken finger.

So go ahead don't spank your kids.

How come I cannot find it. Do you still have the link?

Nick Chia
22-01-2010, 11:11 AM
Go to the Star on line., click Mahathir panned, then, click Nabbed Widower who turn voyeur. It is in the second part of story.

LMei
22-01-2010, 11:11 AM
How come I cannot find it. Do you still have the link?
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=27432&page=7&pp=15&highlight=folks+home

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/14/nation/5464727&sec=nation

Jey
22-01-2010, 11:34 AM
When the children lack fear or respect of parents when they are small, this tends to grow and grow and it is not surprising that this is the end result. Harvesting what you planted yet again. :D

Naka
22-01-2010, 11:40 AM
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=27432&page=7&pp=15&highlight=folks+home

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/14/nation/5464727&sec=nation

Thanks LMei.

usehead
22-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Today's Star reported that a medical student 20, back on holiday whacked his father who have recently had a by-pass ,for refusing to give him 1 million.
The student was arrested and out on bail, while the father suffered a broken finger.

So go ahead don't spank your kids.


The kid is spoilt. Spank - yes. BUT, SPANK THEIR PARENTS. It is a good bet that this kid will make an unscrupulous doctor, an irresponsible spouse/parent in the future.

Do u really think spanking him will work? Just as simple as that - as the way to EDUCATION/ CHARACTER-BUILDING

Sentinel
22-01-2010, 03:46 PM
The kid is spoilt. Spank - yes. BUT, SPANK THEIR PARENTS. It is a good bet that this kid will make an unscrupulous doctor, an irresponsible spouse/parent in the future.

Do u really think spanking him will work? Just as simple as that - as the way to EDUCATION/ CHARACTER-BUILDING
What are you trying to say here, Usehead?

Hiliary
23-01-2010, 12:06 AM
The kid is spoilt. Spank - yes. BUT, SPANK THEIR PARENTS. It is a good bet that this kid will make an unscrupulous doctor, an irresponsible spouse/parent in the future.

Do u really think spanking him will work? Just as simple as that - as the way to EDUCATION/ CHARACTER-BUILDING

I think the idea is to spank a good few years before the age of 20.

I would kick this spoilt brat out of the house, cut him off from the family cash and tell him to go work in McD to pay for the rest of his education. What a failure of a human to whack his father.

zinglicious
23-01-2010, 04:52 AM
If you dont spank your kids, your kids would be punks later in life according to one American neighbour of mine. :eek: :o :eek:
When he was a young kid, he was not spanked like the British way. So no rotan there. Remember that USA is a republic country. They are given choices to choose from young....choosing from the array of boots, brown or black.

Justme123
23-01-2010, 02:21 PM
1. I've read and it is likely that 90% of parents spanked their children.

2. I think we can reasonably note from the 90% of spanked kids, there will be
a % of children who grew up to be good and bad.
I have provided a link recently to state that spanking has positive results,
but most of the published reports on spanking are negative.
Try google: 'spanking' 'effect' 'childhood', and the likes.

Therefore based on 2, we cannot conclude that spanking is effective.
We do not have the numbers, but based on such logical principles, we can
infer that spanking is not totally effective.

In addition, we do not have controlled experiments to compare.

On the other hand, if 90% of parents do not spank their children,
imo, there will likely to be combination of children who grew up to be good and bad as well.

As such, whether spanking is done or not, we still have good and bad kids.

imo, a better choice is not to spank but use alternatives
(btw, not emotional or psychological or other mental abuses).
Using alternatives to spanking will definitely turn out good and bad kids, but
the difference is, it spared the children of potential long term emotional damage which can cause by spanking.

Note the possible consequence of spanking;
Spanking Victim Compares Her Punishment to Rape.
The Cycle of Violence--Loss of Self-Esteem, Accepting Violence.

"It is important to note that not all children who are spanked will develop negative social behaviors,
just as not all heavy smokers will develop lung cancer, says Straus."
"But the potential risk is certainly increased," he says.
"And it isn't worth the potential for long-term negative effects."
Link: (http://www.womensenews.org/story/health/010923/experts-spanking-harms-children-especially-girls)

Spanking may lead to aggression and sexual problems later in life, says a new study.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/116788

The other factor is consideration for another living human being.
Since spanking is not guaranteed, might as well use alternatives and
exercise some consideration for another living human being.

Humanity is moving towards giving regards to another living human being as
shown by the trend in reduction of slavery, apatheid, wife beating (slowly)
and i think it will be child spanking to follow (maybe not now) but in the future.

Jey
23-01-2010, 03:22 PM
You spankers better throw away your canes and learn the methods outlined above.


Note the possible consequence of spanking;
Spanking Victim Compares Her Punishment to Rape.

See the intelligent and scholarly exposition above. This is the type of expositions we should be seeing in a forum. I am completely bowled over. And it has completely reversed my outlook in life :eek: :D

Hiliary
23-01-2010, 03:51 PM
Also check on the global status of violence against teachers since corporal punishment was taken out of schools.

By the way, my idea of spanking is a slap on the backside.

Not the judicial birch or a leather belt.

My main memory of being caned in school is in two parts, one is that within a few seconds it did not hurt and was prefered to an hours detention, the other was wondering if the headmaster would have a heart attack on the second or third stroke :D

Nick Chia
23-01-2010, 08:53 PM
If that Father spank his kids when young ,he would not be attacked by him.
To me it is simple, when the kid did something wrong , he needs to be reprimanded so that he would not forget his mischiefs.

If you say no spanking, then do away with rotan and rapists will have a field day. Our culture is asian and it is better to tow them in line when they are kids . For this matter I have seen many parents being held ransom by their kids ,when they cry loud. Mine don't as I am not negotiable as far as discipline is concerned. I do not intend to be attacked by my own kids.

Love them , spank them when they crossed the line and I gurantee you that they will thank you when they grow up.

Hiliary
23-01-2010, 10:05 PM
If that Father spank his kids when young ,he would not be attacked by him.
To me it is simple, when the kid did something wrong , he needs to be reprimanded so that he would not forget his mischiefs.

If you say no spanking, then do away with rotan and rapists will have a field day. Our culture is asian and it is better to tow them in line when they are kids . For this matter I have seen many parents being held ransom by their kids ,when they cry loud. Mine don't as I am not negotiable as far as discipline is concerned. I do not intend to be attacked by my own kids.

Love them , spank them when they crossed the line and I gurantee you that they will thank you when they grow up.

I agree with you 100%

mWong
23-01-2010, 11:45 PM
I believe there is no hard and fast rule of how to bring up a child that will guarantee the child will grow up "good". Neither approach, i.e. spanking/caning or a soft disciplinary approach will give a 100% guarantee.

Each child has his/her own characteristics. Take my kids for example. For my daughter, all it took was a stern look or word and she will stop her mischief. Wherelse where my sons were concerned, it was just a waste of breath to reason it out with them and here, the cane worked very well.

Parents should know their children well enough to know which works well. As a parent, I just hate for people to tell me how to bring up or how to discipline my children. Here I would say, "to each his/her own" and leave it as that. ;)

yvonnefoong
24-01-2010, 10:01 AM
Refering to the boy who hit his father, maybe too much of permissive parenting had caused him to act out in that manner. If a child did not internalize good moral values, it can act out in many ways. Raping another person is another means of acting out.

A child's failure to internalize good moral values can have many reasons too. One downfall of permissive parenting I can think of is inconsistency. Sometimes okay, sometimes not. The child might learn that if it pushes harder, daddy might give in. Maybe that's the case with this boy. For all we know, he was caned badly as a child. But the punishments could have been administered inconsistently.

usehead
25-01-2010, 07:45 AM
Spanking has a lot of side-effects eg post-traumatic stress disorder, low self-esteem, anger, fraustration, loss of confidence, anxiety, worriness, depression, etc.

I always tell my wife that it will be more difficult to deal with these extra problems ( because we don't have extra time).

As both of us work too hard on our career, and stress up too much in our daily living - if spanking is allowed, we might hit them too hard ( anyway, to decide of how hard too hit itself is questionable )

Consistently, I keep reminding my wife and kids about my stand - it is crystal clear-

'I disapprove mischievious behaviours, but I will not approve any form of verbal or physical aggression as punishment.

Also I like to remind them about criminal laws in this country/world- that they must always decide to stay away from theft/ injuring people, etc which could amount to prison sentence/ whipping by the law enforcers.

The only action I allow is ' withdrawal of privilege' eg cut on TV time etc'. This action will not compromise our integrity of excellent self-control way to live, defender of 'non-agression' ( no shouting/scolding/spanking ) way to face-cum-slove problems/challenges in our lives.

AllUrban
25-01-2010, 11:53 AM
If that Father spank his kids when young ,he would not be attacked by him.
To me it is simple, when the kid did something wrong , he needs to be reprimanded so that he would not forget his mischiefs.

If you say no spanking, then do away with rotan and rapists will have a field day.Maybe that father did hit or spank his kid. How would we know?

Anyways, spanking or no spanking, rapists are already having a field day in Malaysia because of naivety and lack of enforcement.

Cheers, m

Hiliary
25-01-2010, 01:09 PM
Spanking has a lot of side-effects eg post-traumatic stress disorder, low self-esteem, anger, fraustration, loss of confidence, anxiety, worriness, depression, etc.

I never heard of these words/phrases when i was a kid!
I was just happy most of the time, play in fields, stream, forest, ride bike etc.
Hard to get into trouble when having fun as a child.
Only get trouble when in the house!

So throw out the computers, video games etc and get kids playing outside.
I know, cannot let kids play outside anymore, no forests or fields, too many perverts and villans.

Get rid of the perverts, villans and psychiatrists, kids can be kids again :D

usehead
25-01-2010, 01:17 PM
The whole idea of disciplining-cum-education should be -

to make the child remember the reason why certain behaviours are electively disapproved by parents;

rather than for them to bear the trauma ( and embarassment ) of the inflicted pain;

following their sight-sighted ( short term perspective small picture ).

ie consistently zero hostility; highly educative

Every mistake is an opportunity to learn.

My brother uses spanking method. As a consequent, whenever my niece is made to see/understand her mistake or misbehaviour, she will inflict pain on herself eg biting her own knees.

usehead
25-01-2010, 01:49 PM
And, my kids remain proud, having able to cooperate with me to achieve zero budget for cane every year since they were born.

In fact, they join in my campaign for zero violent at home; very protective of their cousins.