Court says yes to "Allah"!

[besitai2007]

Great news for all Catholics in Malaysia, read this good news for the new year by the High Court at http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48112-headline-court-says-yes-to-allah-for-christians. Quicklah start churning out the prints before the Appeal Court puts a whammy on this decision!

[mykern]

Great news for all Catholics in Malaysia, read this good news for the new year by the High Court at http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48112-headline-court-says-yes-to-allah-for-christians. Quicklah start churning out the prints before the Appeal Court puts a whammy on this decision!

The Home Ministry has a right to appeal ... but lets see whether they will .... I do hope not .....
Happy New and Blessed New Year!~

[bobkee]

No need to start churning prints. Materials using the term has been in existence for more than 2 centuries.

[bslee]

I'm glad it turned out well! Cheers! :)

[tupai]

seriosuly, wassa BIG deal about this?

I just came back from a land of some 200MILLION+ muslims and when my muslim frens heard about the court case over the word Allah, they bursted out laughing at our silliness! The confident muslims there and the christians there share the same word and Allah the word was deeply carved and even concreted on church wall!

We are so petty and small minded! Malaysia Book of rekod indeed!

Yang Beruttering yaAllah, save us from 'em insecured idiots! latotupai :eek:

[Jey]

I wouldnt open the champagne bottles yet. Remember the Appeals court maa.... and then got Federal courts maa.... see all the decisions of the High Court that went against the gov't. Apa sula jadik?

At higher levels, different cerita maa... :D
Correct, correct, correct.... :D

[CS Chua]

The battle has just begun. Prayer warriors are needed.

[bobkee]

Still .. its a judicial decision after more than 20 years of uncertainty and "budi-bicara".

[USJ27Resident]

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48127?task=view#pc_231292

Is it the Home Ministry or the UMNO hawks that is stirring sh!t/inciting tension in this issue.... :mad:

Dah tak dak modal nak bising - these fellas will beat the drums full of crap to get attention.... whereas 200 million+ muslims across the straits are laughing at them, and they don't realise it....

[bugbear]

I wouldnt open the champagne bottles yet. Remember the Appeals court maa.... and then got Federal courts maa.... see all the decisions of the High Court that went against the gov't. Apa sula jadik?

At higher levels, different cerita maa... :D
Correct, correct, correct.... :D
Still, it is a victory nevertheless. A victory for common sense and a bright start to 2010. :D

[firefox]

Great news and victory! for our Christian brothers in East Malaysia, now will they get back the Bibles that was confisicated.

Hope the gomen will accept the court decision.

[wsp]

don't celebrate first, the narrow-minded & not well-read minister already said that they would appeal. Msia boleh - what kind of image they want to potray to the world as this news is reported in overseas???? don't these ppl know the history and evolution of bible/kitab of christian and islam in past centuries??? i already feel shameful for themselves after friends in overseas started pouring the questions to me. we live in a 'what' a country!!

[Jey]

Actually let them celebrate. While they are still able to celebrate.

:D

[CS Chua]

It is starting already. Read what this UMNO MP said in the Malaysian Insider, “What is their motive (for the suit) ? Why all of a sudden they want to use the word Allah when all this while they have been using the term God?

“What the High Court thinks is right, may not necessarily be right outside (the court),” he added.

Firstly, this chap needs to get his facts right. This word has been used in Malaysia for 400 years, even by Munshi Abdullah when he first translated the Malay Bible.

Secondly, he needs to know the Malaysian constitution. Obviously, he is oblivious to the rights of the others.

Thirdly, he should ask the 1.5 billion other Muslims why they do not have problems with others using this word? Muslims in Indonesia and the Middle East are happy to share this word with their citizen friends.

[mykern]

This is how the Asian Wall Street Journal reports it:-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126225534765411619.html

[tupai]

Can we have a leasder like the late Gus Dur? Read what Susilo has to say about Gus Dur's legacy on pluralism and multiculturalism...And the late Gus came from a background of religious family heritage.

http://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/bnm/20091231/tts-gus-dur-pluralism-bm-993ba14.html

Bolehland politicians can take a leaf or 2 from this man.


Yang Bagi condolences to Gus Dur's family latotupai

[bslee]

Can we have a leader like the late Gus Dur? Read what Susilo has to say about Gus Dur's legacy on pluralism and multiculturalism...And the late Gus came from a background of religious family heritage.
Bolehland politicians can take a leaf or 2 from this man.


Just can't think who here can fit the bill or even near it...even if I sit down and think hard for the next 2 days. All I could come out are flers with 10% or much less useable meat up there, moreover "cakap ta serupa bikin".

[tupai]

Just can't think who here can fit the bill or even near it...even if I sit down and think hard for the next 2 days. All I could come out are flers with 10% or much less useable meat up there, moreover "cakap ta serupa bikin".

Gus was the Prez whom I mentioned somewhere, who turned down a mosque official request (for a very old pine tree growing in the compound) to be chopped down, on the account that a pine tree is a christian tree.

Gus' answer was: "Since when did that old tree convert?" :D :D

Yang bagi respek where its due, latotupai :)

[firefox]

I do expect an uproar and out cry by some troublemakers very soon.

[USJ27Resident]

Thirdly, he should ask the 1.5 billion other Muslims why they do not have problems with others using this word? Muslims in Indonesia and the Middle East are happy to share this word with their citizen friends.

.... because he comes from the UMNO version :rolleyes: as far as these fellas are concerned, they now probably owned the Arabic language... bangang punya mentality!

[firefox]

High Court judge Lau Bee Lan stated that the minister’s order is “illegal, null and void”.

If only we had more brave sincere Judges like this who stand for JUSTICE and principles, our country wont be lawless like now.

[zinglicious]

May God be the judge for Allah adalah hakim yang benar. :) :D :)

[mick123]

........If only we had more brave sincere Judges like this who stand for JUSTICE and principles.........


i believe there are many of these judges out there......only problem is when they make that brave stand.......they stand to be transferred :eek: :eek:

..........so how not to have the "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality?

[mykern]

This issue may be a problem again if BN regains 2/3 in Parliament, because they can now amend the relevant Article(s).
This issue will be leapfrogged directly to the Fed Court since it is a constitutional issue .... so ... the final stand should be known quite quickly ... my 2 sen is by end March 2010.

Khap!~

[Naka]

This decision by the court was also mentioned by radios in kangaroo land

[besitai2007]

Aiyah, meantime read today. K Toyo is in mourning over the decision http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48263-khir-toyo-says-in-mourning-over-allah-ruling. What's going on? Just over the use of a word? I'm kinda confused: are there many "God"s to the many religions of the world? The English word "God" continues from the Old English God, guþ, gudis in Gothic, gud in modern Scandinavian, God in Dutch, and Gott in modern German( which derives from the Proto-Germanic *ǥuđán). Further discussion on the word "Allah" can be read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah.

If there is only one true God/Allah why should people squabble over semantics? But for the many Catholics in this country, it's not just the right to use the word but the right to natural justice which is sorely lacking in this country.

[Jey]

Amazing... so who should be mourning over the Disneyland trips... and other ways the rakyat's money was milked good and proper? :rolleyes:

[wsp]

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29354:allah-ruling-opposed&catid=19:newscommentaries&Itemid=100131

Memang bolehlah.... These ppl will go for protests, and if things go wild, they will give threats to national security... wait & see. who is the GOD, now?

[bugbear]

If there is only one true God/Allah why should people squabble over semantics? But for the many Catholics in this country, it's not just the right to use the word but the right to natural justice which is sorely lacking in this country.
I believe the Allah in the Muslim context and that of the Christian context is totally different in attributes. There are not one and the same. The Allah in the Muslim refer to a single diety that is not begotten and neither begot any children while that of the Christian refer to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, One God.
Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God". The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.

What I find most puzzling is the reaction of a section of Muslim community in Malaysia when the court rule in favour of the Herald. Why now?

[Jey]

Even Pas youth wants KDN to appeal and the appeal is being made by none other than the PM's dept. :D

[tupai]

By Jove! MALAYSIA BOLEH! it was a non-muslim who presided over the court and this ruling...

there r already racist fanatics getting ready to go to streets and battle over this word.

YaAllah protect all of us over this ant-hill issue.


Yang Believe in Allah, God, Gawd, Jive, Jupiter dll latotupai
:rolleyes:

[bobkee]

Sorry .. I haven't had time to translate this to English. This was originally posted in my blog (http://www.bobjots.org/2010/01/ya-allah-konspirasi-siapa-sebenarnya-ni/)


Menurut Presiden SIB Sabah, Pdt. Jerry Dusing, istilah “Allah” telah digunakan dalam ibadah gereja SIB dan Alkitab semenjak penubuhannya pada zaman pra-kemerdekaan lagi oleh jemaah Bahasa Malaysia yang rata-ratanya kaum pribumi di Sabah dan juga dipengaruhi oleh amalan-amalan dan kosa kata agama gereja di Indonesia. Penggunaan Bahasa Malaysia adalah lebih meluas lagi pada masa kini oleh rata-rata muda-mudi yang menggunakan Bahasa Malaysia sebagai bahasa ibunda dan pengantara. Menurut statistik, penganut agama Kristian di negara ini adalah kira-kira 10% dan hampir 60% daripada mereka menggunakan Bahasa Malaysia sebagai bahasa ibunda mereka.


Menurutnya lagi, penggunaan istilah “Allah” untuk mewakili Tuhan oleh orang Kristian seawal zaman pra-Islam lagi dan diteruskan ke zaman moden di negara-negara yang mempunyai pengaruh bahasa Arab, untuk menerangkan konsep ketuhanan monotheistik agama Abrahamik. Bidang etymologi (pengkajian perkataan) mencadangkan bahawa “Allah” bermaksud “Tuhan yang satu” dan mempunyai persamaan dengan “Elaha” dalam bahasa Ibrani yang bermaksud Tuhan.


Menurut Bob Kee dalam blognya, beliau berpendapat bahawa penggunaan istilah “Allah” dalam penterjemahan Alkitab mempunyai sejarahnya yang tersendiri. Dalam analisa sejarahnya, istilah-istilah seperti יהוה (YHWH), אֲדֹנָי (Adonai), אל (El), אלהים (Elohim) dan nama-nama Tuhan dalam bahasa Ibrani sukar diterjemahkan khususnya dalam frasa gabungan אֲדֹנָי יהוה (Adonai YHWH) yang banyak terdapat dalam kitab Perjanjian Lama.

Seperti dalam Bahasa Inggeris, di mana kata “Lord” dan “God” digunakan, teks Injil Matius pertama yang diterjemahkan ke dalam bahasa nusantara oleh Albert Cornelisson Ruyl pada 1629, menggunakan “Allah”. Istilah ini terus digunakan dalam abad-abad berikutnya dimana frasa gabungan Adonai YHWH diterjemah sebagai “TUHAN Allah” dan Elohim sebagai “Allah”.

Oleh yang demikian, adalah penting agar kita dimaklumkan bahawa penggunaan istilah “Allah” bukanlah amalan yang baru, tidak langsung mempunyai sebarang agenda. Malah, penggunaan istilah “Allah” adalah perkembangan sihat ke arah dialog antara agama-agama Abrahamik.


Kata “Allah”, di samping kosa kata Arab dan Sanskrit yang mempunyai konsep-konsep agama yang saling berkait seperti syurga, neraka, dosa, doa, sengsara, dsbg tidak ekslusif kepada satu-satu agama. Bahasa Malaysia sebagai bahasa Nusantara dan berpinjam dari pelbagai budaya mampu menguraikan konsep-konsep sains, teknologi dan tidak asing lagi, konsep-konsep agama secara berkesan tidak mengira ajaran Islam, Buddha, Hindu mahupun Kristian. Menteri-menteri Kabinet, seperti Tan Sri Bernard Dompok dan Datuk Zainuddin Maidin dalam kenyataan-kenyataan lepas menyatakan bahawa Bahasa Malaysia adalah bahasa untuk semua.


Di samping itu, Dr. Ng Kam Weng berpendapat bahawa gereja mempunyai hak untuk mentadbir soal dalamannya adalam peruntukan Artikel 11 (3) selagi tidak bercanggah dengan Perlembagaan dan mengamalkan nilai hormat-menghormati dalam suasana masyarakat majmuk di negara ini. Rakyat Malaysia yang berbahasa ibunda Bahasa Malaysia mempunyai hak dan keperluan untuk mendapat bahan-bahan agama dalam bahasa dan budaya mereka sendiri. Dengan kawalselia KDN yang efisien dan bijaksana, serta hubungan telus, ikhlas dan akrab Gereja-Kerajaan, penulisan-penulisan bagi hal-ehwal dalaman umat Kristian sudah tentu akan diterbitkan dengan bertanggungjawab dan bijaksana.


Daripada membazir masa dan tenaga untuk berbalah tentang isu-isu penggunaan kata, adalah lebih bermanfaat agar kita memupuk persefahaman dan menyelesaikan masalah dengan sikap yang terbuka dan progresif. Adalah lebih wajar kita memandang kepada isu-isu yang lebih serius yang dituntut oleh agama seperti menjaga kebajikan anak-anak yang kurang bernasib baik, fakir miskin dan tertindas, memelihara alam sekitar, menegakkan keadilan sosial dan integriti di samping berjiran (dalam ertikata sebenarnya) antara agama untuk menghayati dan menyayangi satu sama lain dengan lebih akrab lagi.


Bagi masyarakat Kristian di Semenanjung Malaysia yang beribadah dalam bahasa Inggeris dan ibunda masing-masing, mungkinkah ini satu renungan untuk kita membudayakan penggunaan bahasa kebangsaan dalam kehidupan seharian dan ibadah kita? Sejauh mana kita memiliki, membaca dan menghayati Alkitab dalam Bahasa Malaysia? Emosi kita mempertahankan saudara-saudari kita di Malaysia Timur perlulah datang bersama usaha untuk bersama-sama mereka untuk membentuk jatidiri Gereja Malaysia yang bersatu termasuklah mengambil perhatian yang lebih serius terhadap penggunaan bahasa tersebut dalam gereja-gereja tempatan.

Incidentally, the Sikh community's name for God is Allah.

[Jey]

This issue is raging like a wildfire in Facebook also... :eek:

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/bahasa/48315-polemik-kalimah-allah-di-herald-rentasi-facebook

[bobkee]

This really should have been a non-issue. The term "Allah" has been used by the various religious communities in the Archipelago (including Malaysia) for hundreds of years. It was only in the early 80's when some of these terms were "monopolised" during Mahathir's administration to stay consistent with some of the more xenophobic sentiments that were being disseminated in the Agama classes that it became a problem.

The recent High Court decision did nothing more than to reinstate the pre-existing status quo. Unfortunately we see some mainstream media playing the tune of xenophobia and perpetuating misinformation.

[Jey]

Also the Sabahans and Sarawakians were using it before the 2 States joined the Federation. Same with the Christian Arabs :D

But for the sake of peace, the Catholic church should just drop the legal battle, with suits, appeals and counter appeals. God is no less a God even by any other name. Will He cease to be God if he is called Tuhan? :p

With the current legal circus shows, just what can you hope to achieve by taking it to Boleh-land courts? :eek:

[Jey]

Is all these necessary?

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29375:herald-website-hacked-as-allah-battle-intensifies&catid=19:newscommentaries&Itemid=100131

[bobkee]

As I mentioned elsewhere, if some of us already have problems letting the Magisterium in the Vatican determine our faith practices, would we be more pliant when it comes to letting Putrajaya do the same? ;)

[bugbear]

Also the Sabahans and Sarawakians were using it before the 2 States joined the Federation. Same with the Christian Arabs :D

But for the sake of peace, the Catholic church should just drop the legal battle, with suits, appeals and counter appeals. God is no less a God even by any other name. Will He cease to be God if he is called Tuhan? :p

With the current legal circus shows, just what can you hope to achieve by taking it to Boleh-land courts? :eek:
Jey, it is easy for you to write here that the Christian should give way in this issue regarding the term Allah. Like you, I was also wondering why the term Allah was used in the Injil. Later when I search in depth the historical background on the term Allah, I realise that the term Allah pre-date Islam and that the term Allah is the only arabic word meaning God. As in the comment above posted by BobKee, it is clear that this problem only become an issue in the 80s under Tun M. No way in the world is this an issue except here in Bolehland.
So your suggestion for Christian to give way is actually an injustice to Christian. Article 11(3) give freedom of religion to all Malaysian and therefore I as a Malaysian has the right to profess my faith as those of my ancestors before me in equal measure. That is the constitution Jey. What those protesters and detractors are calling is not in line with our constitution and should be abhor.
I support the call by the PM to remain calm and not to racial-ice or politic-ice this issue beyond all human decorum for the sake of our nation. Leave this issue to the court to decide rather than to the street.
Another fruit for thought is if the term Allah cannot be used by Christian, then do we ban all Injil in Sabah and Sarawak?

[Nick Chia]

God of Abraham is the same as God of Ibrahim . Those who seek to change is not knowledgeable and should be forgiven. As Jesus said before he died " Father, please forgive them as they do not know what they are doing ".

[bugbear]

God of Abraham is the same as God of Ibrahim . Those who seek to change is not knowledgeable and should be forgiven. As Jesus said before he died " Father, please forgive them as they do not know what they are doing ".
I would like to gently remind you Nick that the God of Abraham is not the same with the God of Ibrahim. The God of Abraham is a triune God ie God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit whereas this is not so in Islam. In Islam, Allah is not begotten and neither has He begot and children.

[Justme123]

I think the goverment main contention is not
on how long the word had been used by any parties,
or that it must be used solely by one group.

From what i read from the papers (need additional confirmation),
it seem the main point against the use of the word is that, it may cause riots
and threaten national security.
The judge do not agree with that point as there is no evidence to support
the government' contention.
At present, there may be groups organizing to prove this point and support
their appeal to ban the use of the word.

If that is the case, the unfortunate thing in such a situation is that
a religious issue need to hinge on violence for its resolution.

imo, someday, humanity (when the majority are wiser) will realize that
this word-ban issue is 'too much ado about no-thing'.

[xaviers]

Wonder whether God is concerned about this name calling?

I think God is more concern about how we live out our lives and all this fiaso doesn't look like a very good testimony.

Ah .. Don't make God angry, you wouldn't like God when he's angry

[Jey]

Justme123,

That is my point too. There is no point in going to war for just a word. From the way things are heating up, I wont be surprised if it ends in violence. So what is the point? The Bible exhorts the Christians, if someone takes your shirt, offer him your coat too. So what is so great about a translated word?

The Catholic church should just drop it and do away with it. Just stick with Tuhan, God would be no less a God by any other name. Seek peace, not war.

Theologically speaking, it is not the same God we are referring to anyways. So why court all these unnecessary chaos?

[jimmyay]

Why why why?

Are we gonna ban non-tudung swimming wear? Cos it is offensive to certain groups?

Aren't we supposed to live in harmony, understand each other cultures? If others cultures is different with yours, please appreciate that i don't force it on others. So, don't force it on me too.

Some country - Listen to the majority and protect the minority (Malaysia??)
Some country - Listen to the majority and bully the minority

The disgusting part is where the Politikus is trying to gain mileage from this. Go and improve on your own dept, improves on individual KPI, talk some economy here... and not just playing on racist and religious cards.

As a friendly reminder, Masjid & School/Uni is built via tax from other religion's rakyat too? DO they wanna vote it as non-halal?

[bugbear]

I think the goverment main contention is not
on how long the word had been used by any parties,
or that it must be used solely by one group.

From what i read from the papers (need additional confirmation),
it seem the main point against the use of the word is that, it may cause riots
and threaten national security.
The judge do not agree with that point as there is no evidence to support
the government' contention.
At present, there may be groups organizing to prove this point and support
their appeal to ban the use of the word.

If that is the case, the unfortunate thing in such a situation is that
a religious issue need to hinge on violence for its resolution.

imo, someday, humanity (when the majority are wiser) will realize that
this word-ban issue is 'too much ado about no-thing'.
The point is why only now in 2010 that people are getting angry over the term Allah as compared to say 1950s or 1960s? Where is the consistency? Is Malaysia an extremist country now? Where do we go from here? :confused:

[bslee]

Where is the consistency? Is Malaysia an extremist country now? Where do we go from here? :confused:

Go down the ruts and gutters if you'd like me to say so. As long as you or offspring choose to call this land home, you sink with the ship if fated! Extremist to a greater degree than pre or post Merdeka!. Mindsets HAVE CHANGED, unfortunately for the worse, not just the religion issue.

[kwchang]

Folks, the rate this is being fired and fanned, you flers will be going into banana plantation territory.

Why all the heated comments? Just like a football match, do you think that you, as a spectator, can score goals for the home team by shouting (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398702&postcount=44) in the stadium?

I agree with Xaviers (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398695&postcount=42) and Jey (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398700&postcount=43). But then maybe some people just don't like simple solutions or be seen to concede and compromise.

[bugbear]

Go down the ruts and gutters if you'd like me to say so. As long as you or offspring choose to call this land home, you sink with the ship if fated! Extremist to a greater degree than pre or post Merdeka!. Mindsets HAVE CHANGED, unfortunately for the worse, not just the religion issue.
It is often spoken that PAS brand of Islam is more radical but now I am not so sure anymore. It seems like the radical element of fundamental Islam has finally take root in Malaysia and I fear for the future of Malaysia. :o

[bugbear]

Folks, the rate this is being fired and fanned, you flers will be going into banana plantation territory.

Why all the heated comments? Just like a football match, do you think that you, as a spectator, can score goals for the home team by shouting (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398702&postcount=44) in the stadium?

I agree with Xaviers (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398695&postcount=42) and Jey (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=398700&postcount=43). But then maybe some people just don't like simple solutions or be seen to concede and compromise.
But Chang, all i see thus far has been a rather mature discussion on the merit of the case at hand and not on the street. I believe this is a rather constructive discussion. I know there are some unpredictable elements who might derail or put fire but until then I don't see anything wrong here.

[kwchang]

...I know there are some unpredictable elements who might derail or put fire... that is precisely my job, to pre-empt and be a step ahead. This was a warning for all to keep in line, just in case someone removed the parachutes and the discussion goes into free-fall .. or free-for-all ... ;)

[firefox]

Dont you see, the motive of corrupt political leaders who stir up unrest among ther own fellow men SO THAT THE PEOPLE ARE DISTRACTED by their increasing corruption scandals being revealed.

[Nick Chia]

I quite agee with firefox, after all the hoohas, the appeal is granted and ummo gets support and life goes on as usual. God, Tuhan and Allah has been used to divert other important issues. In Chinese , this is call 'Tai chi' . bugbear, I am not against any religion. To me respect everyone who wishes to worship God in his own way.

[bobkee]

Some dialogue sessions are being organised to discuss this matter. This is actually a good opportunity to enhance mutual understanding"


Allah: Siapa yang Punya?
Organised by Free Public Forum and Persatuan Mahasiswa Islam Universiti Malaya

Panelists

YB Khalid Samad
- Member of Parliament for Shah Alam
Most Reverend Archbishop Tan Sri Murphy Pakiam
- Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kuala Lumpur
Dr. Asri Zainal Abidin
- Former Mufti of Perlis
Dr. Mohd Farid Mohd Shahran
- Institute of Islamic Thought and Civilization, International Islamic University
Monday, 11 January 2010
7:45pm - 10:30pm

Kuala Lumpur & Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall (KLSCAH)
Jln Maharajalela
50150 Kuala Lumpur

(location map (http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Kuala+Lumpur+Selangor+Chinese+Assembly+Hall&sll=3.106623,101.637765&sspn=0.085019,0.154324&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Selangor+Chinese+Assembly+Hall,+Malaysia&ll=3.139681,101.698025&spn=0.005314,0.009645&z=17&iwloc=A))
Anyway, this isn't a matter that affects Christians alone. The Sikh scriptures refer to God as Allah as well. To stand down on this arbitrary ban would imply that we are giving Putrajaya theological authority as well?

[Jey]

The last time the Bar Council organized an inter faith dialogue, a circus resulted. Wonder what will take place in this event? :p

[bugbear]

Too bad i am in Borneo right now or else i will be there to participate in the debate.

[bugbear]

I believe UMNO is in an unenviable position of the "Allah Dilemma." On one hand, they try to appease the Malays and on the other hand they try to show a moderate face of the ruling government of the day to the whole world. Either way, they will lose out. Things are heating up in the days ahead.

On the appeal process, if UMNO win the appeal, they will definitely lose support from Sabah and Sarawak in the next election not to mention from the non-Muslim community. If they lose the appeal (which is unlikely) they will face the wrath of fellow ultra nationalist and NGOs. Either way, the crown is not sitting pretty on Najib's head.

[bobkee]

The last time the Bar Council organized an inter faith dialogue, a circus resulted. Wonder what will take place in this event? :pThe primary mistake was that the it was the Bar Council that organised it, making it easy for detractors to claim it was "secular' interference in religious affairs. This time the primary organiser is a Muslim group. I am hopeful about this.

[mykern]

The latest decision... which is why the non-muslims in their states have little problems ..

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48498-pas-backs-use-of-allah-by-christians

Khap!~

[Jey]

The primary mistake was that the it was the Bar Council that organised it, making it easy for detractors to claim it was "secular' interference in religious affairs. This time the primary organiser is a Muslim group. I am hopeful about this.

I dont think there are "primary" or "secondary" mistakes ascribed to organizing the event. i.e. Bar council's attempted dialogue in the past. The crux of the matter was, and is... any attempt to have interfaith "dialogue" is seen as taboo. At least that is what I am given to understand on this. Maybe I am wrong but anyways, the event is not too far away, lets see how it turns out.

[keny]

be fair folks....like the PPSMI issues. some people here always talk about UMNO, while PAS also screaming in protest. In PPMSI issue,PKR organized a rally at Bangi Stadium celebrating 'their' success.

60% malays with UMNO and 40% with PR through PAS. Now PAS + UMNO are united in this issue.

for concerts like Beyonce/Rihanna...UMNO says YES. While PAS celebrating their success in stopping it.

p/s...better go check migration threads.

[Nick Chia]

Lastnight there was a live dicussion on Bernama T,v. Hello Malaysia. A caller give his opinion. Briefly, he said that Malaysia was a unique country with multi racial culture and live in harmony which envy the world in the 60s. It has been until the education system was changed and politicians triggered the race sentiments to gain points.

This have seemed to divide than unite and what was a beautiful country once was left to rot due the gomen and selfish politicians. Today, the harmony is still in the ra ayat circle but it is the politicians and the press that highlighted the 'nothing' to spetacular sensitive issue that arouses racial divides.

Schools in the 60s was so good that even the british was jealous of our command of english. Everybody mingled together in school activities regardless of race and religion. The focus then was how to excel in studies. Today, we are talking about sekolah wawasan, national service etc. The beautiful Malaysia we had was not taken care of and now we are going backwards.

I sincerely hope that we are able to progress foward and to the government, please stop this 'Allah" issue and guide malaysia to its previous status ,lest we will be like Philipines and Mymmar. May Tuhan Bless Malaysia

[bslee]

I sincerely hope that we are able to progress foward and to the government, please stop this 'Allah" issue and guide malaysia to its previous status ,lest we will be like Philipines and Mymmar. May Tuhan Bless Malaysia

I'm really appalled and disgusted issues like this crop up and groups making a huge fuss on the streets about it. I'm really really disgusted where this country is heading into. Its no more a case of live and let live.

[jimmyay]

p/s...better go check migration threads.

On the way too... sigh. These are nonsense that my children should not face. Let them live in a country where people have equal rights.

Some told me Aus are racist country. Of course, there are black sheep among them. However, look at the govt they chosen, the policy they set. They don't differentiate us by colours or where you are from. As long they approve your PR or Citizen, you pay equal tax rates and get equal benefits.

[bslee]

Some told me Aus are racist country. Of course, there are black sheep among them. However, look at the govt they chosen, the policy they set. They don't differentiate us by colours or where you are from. As long they approve your PR or Citizen, you pay equal tax rates and get equal benefits.

Please do not take this as fact but merely my view. It all depends on how migrants (from here I mean) assimilate and adapt themselves into an entirely new or unfamiliar way of life, culture abroad and don't mess yourselves with their laws and customs. If one can do that on a broad scale, I reckon you'd be successful living in a new country. An example is many from the Indian continent and many from Asia who've migrated to Britain. My late uncle was one of them although he was factually never a Malayan citizen. He was successful and even became a minor stage actor. They are smart enough to being and develop into very British mannerism and character, resulting in great achievement living permanently there, moreover imagine India was so hostile to being their colonists for 200 years. Now they go there and Anglicanize themselves into the community, perhaps even being more than half an Anglophile. I also do think that say if you go to a fully English speaking country and you DO have a high command of spoken English, you could do very well quite easily. Like people say, When in Rome, do as the Romans do. This issue very broad and subjective and can't be definitive in one two paragraphs.

[xaviers]

...... It all depends on how migrants (from here I mean) assimilate and adapt themselves into an entirely new or unfamiliar way of life, culture abroad and don't mess yourselves with their laws and customs. .....

wise observation. The problem is most migrants don't that's why you have pockets of chinese, indian, vietamese areas. And people expect to be accepted just like that?

[bslee]

I reckon any migrant EXPECT equal justice there. But ASK oneselves WHAT CAN YOU DO to contribute to make there a better place to reside indefinitely?... have your own inherent arrogant ways and stamp your mark there will little regard of how others there may feel?. You take but also have to give back. Its a 2 way street. This is not an era where the likes of Europeans go to the Americas and take, plunder, change and do whatever they want as if they're ordained to do so.

Very very sorry if gone off topic and not much todo with the actual topic.
I've only silent regret this can happen in Malaysia now or in future. There's lots of selfish, arrogant and lowest level of intolerance lurking within. YOU DON'T TOLERATE NEARLY AUTOMATICALLY MEANS YOU'RE OFFENDED by the event. Reverse it, it still means the same thing. Thats all I'll say.

[firefox]

Very very sorry if gone off topic and not much todo with the actual topic.



I do agree this thread has become a mamak rojak.

[bslee]

I do agree this thread has become a mamak rojak.

As long contents doesn't get personal and ugly.

[bobkee]

be fair folks....like the PPSMI issues. some people here always talk about UMNO, while PAS also screaming in protest. In PPMSI issue,PKR organized a rally at Bangi Stadium celebrating 'their' success.

60% malays with UMNO and 40% with PR through PAS. Now PAS + UMNO are united in this issue.

for concerts like Beyonce/Rihanna...UMNO says YES. While PAS celebrating their success in stopping it.

p/s...better go check migration threads.I believe PAS has come out officially against any attempts to ban the use of Allah by other religious communities:

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48498-pas-backs-use-of-allah-by-christians

[PDL]

I believe PAS has come out officially against any attempts to ban the use of Allah by other religious communities:

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48498-pas-backs-use-of-allah-by-christians

Yes, PAS has no objections. Another article here : http://freemalaysiatoday.com/english/?p=5993

[bslee]

Yes, PAS has no objections. Another article here : http://freemalaysiatoday.com/english/?p=5993

PAS ain't no Federal Government to dictate terms. Its merely their view thats all.
There will be notorious people kicking up the fuss again if the court trashes the appeal. This is just a blooming volatile land.. All you need is a little spark and gunpowder is suddenly freely available just about anywhere.

[bobkee]

The current controversy over the use of “Allah” as a legitimate translation for God by non-Muslims in Malaysia has been receiving significant coverage in the international media. A sampling of how the international media has been covering this can be seen here ..

.. While generally factual in their reporting, one glaringly dangerous stereotype is a common factor in the reports referenced above – that this controversy is another manifestation of inter-ethnic tensions in Malaysia and that the Christian community in Malaysia comprises only of the minority ethnic Chinese and Indians.

The statistical fact is that the majority of the Christian community in Malaysia are actually composed of Malay speaking indigenous communities.
Full post at my blog (http://www.bobjots.org/2010/01/malaysian-christians-%E2%89%A0-chinese-indians-only/). Too much formatting to duplicate here :P

[dragonfly]

If the decision is overturned upon appeal by the govt.............then what? Next will be all sermons and christian publication in bahasa melayu to be banned as it can cause confusion to muslims/malay community and it will be a threat to national interest! Again court case and the cycle could repeat itself.

[gtl]

appeal after appeal.......minister can even says judge is wrong.......so who is rite?

[bugbear]

The current controversy over the use of “Allah” as a legitimate translation for God by non-Muslims in Malaysia has been receiving significant coverage in the international media. A sampling of how the international media has been covering this can be seen here ..

.. While generally factual in their reporting, one glaringly dangerous stereotype is a common factor in the reports referenced above – that this controversy is another manifestation of inter-ethnic tensions in Malaysia and that the Christian community in Malaysia comprises only of the minority ethnic Chinese and Indians.

The statistical fact is that the majority of the Christian community in Malaysia are actually composed of Malay speaking indigenous communities.
Full post at my blog (http://www.bobjots.org/2010/01/malaysian-christians-%E2%89%A0-chinese-indians-only/). Too much formatting to duplicate here :P
My thanks to Bobkee for such informative piece with regard to the present standoff with the use of the term Allah. I can't help but feeling that this issue has been politic-iced by certain quarter to untenable position. Non-Muslim especially the Christians have been admirable in their conduct when faced with such opposition against their faith and I salute them so. However the handful of Malays have tarnish Islam by their myopic view of this issue and can harm harmonious relation in this country to irreparable position. :(

[Nick Chia]

The Government should stop this silly small thing and get on with how to improve the economy for the future of the younger generation. Please politicians do your part to improve the security of the community and if you can 'ban' all those who brought up this issue which is no good for everybody and the country. it would make malaysians more happy.

Focus on what is good for the country and not this 'lose lose situation. We don't vote you to tell us how to respect each other's religion or lifestyle, rather we vote you to peserve the multi racial peacefulness that existed during your father's time. Syabas.

[bugbear]

The Government should stop this silly small thing and get on with how to improve the economy for the future of the younger generation. Please politicians do your part to improve the security of the community and if you can 'ban' all those who brought up this issue which is no good for everybody and the country. it would make malaysians more happy.

Focus on what is good for the country and not this 'lose lose situation. We don't vote you to tell us how to respect each other's religion or lifestyle, rather we vote you to peserve the multi racial peacefulness that existed during your father's time. Syabas.
Well said my friend. ;)

[zinglicious]

Politicians are good in taking things apart and ensures that it stays apart.
As in this country, they know that they can rely on religious issue to divert attentions and arouse the sentiments of people as there are varibles religious belief here.
Think about it...Politicians trying to put God into political scenario. It had worked so far.
By right, politicians are to ensure unity of the people and welfare and needs of its citizens. But so far, we have heard even the DBKL are using the fun to beautify thier building instead of innsufficient funds to collect rubbish.

[AllUrban]

I would like to gently remind you Nick that the God of Abraham is not the same with the God of Ibrahim. The God of Abraham is a triune God ie God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit whereas this is not so in Islam. In Islam, Allah is not begotten and neither has He begot and children.shouldnt we ask Abraham/Ibrahim what he thinks? Or for that matter, ask GOD? :) :D :eek:

If only more of us (as in, the politicians and the average people on the street) would spend more time praying about how people shout and less time shouting about how people pray ... imagine what a world this could be :D

Cheers, m

[USJ27Resident]

[QUOTE=dragonfly] as it can cause confusion to muslims/malay community [\QUOTE]

not all muslims and malays are confused-la... only those that has been "dipermainkan" or "diperalatkan" by those with vested interest la... :rolleyes:

[bslee]

not all muslims and malays are confused-la... only those that has been "dipermainkan" or "diperalatkan" by those with vested interest la... :rolleyes:

There's also to a large extent those who're blur or entirely blur blur as to whats going on and semua ok... continue put an "X" on that damn spot.

[firefox]

Theres no other country i know, except ours that is plagued with religious issues almost everyday..Its really shame that we are still living in the medieval period so unprogressive with a third world mentality.

[bslee]

Its going to be like that in reality as I just fail to be convinced its anything but progressive, only that the gahmen is doing everything to hide or thwart the realities that lurk in this land.
When we have some top official saying its weird to speak English in this land, what's your impression?...a great speech?
Nevertheless I'll continuously respect and take my hat off to those people and patriots who're continuously fighting for proper justice against overwhelming odds. As time goes by, the odds are even bigger as mindsets are going beyond redemption.

[USJ27Resident]

High Court judge Lau Bee Lan stated that the minister’s order is “illegal, null and void”..

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/6/nation/20100106154303&sec=nation

Stay of Execution.....!!! by the same judge :rolleyes: sudah start la.... :mad:

[BMW9700]

my arab friends and business partners in dubai and doha are really laughing their heads off at our stupidity...

[Jey]

Look at this guys creativity... i am simply amazed at his sharp wit and humor.

http://www.malaysiakini.com/cartoons/view.php?id=MTI2MjcwNzIwMA==

[keny]

my arab friends and business partners in dubai and doha are really laughing their heads off at our stupidity...


who is 'OUR' ? me and you, the tax payers???

[isarahim]

Surah 29, Ayat 46
"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow."

No need to say anything more.

[umadavid]

who is 'OUR' ? me and you, the tax payers???
OUR = Malaysian (as Malaysia b'comes the laughing stock of the world)

[ivanhow]

Schools in the 60s was so good that even the british was jealous of our command of english. Everybody mingled together in school activities regardless of race and religion. The focus then was how to excel in studies. Today, we are talking about sekolah wawasan, national service etc. The beautiful Malaysia we had was not taken care of and now we are going backwards.

... May Tuhan Bless Malaysia
Cud all this be due to over-zealousness of the country's top leaders to promote 'religionizm' (if there is such a word) into the country's political system and mixing religion with politics?

A highly potent and explosive concoction :eek: :confused: ?

[keny]

never before non Moslem cling so much to PAS for survival becoz it represent 40% of Malay supporter inPR. DAP despite its always will always be seen as Chinese chauvinist party (not even Indian party?). PKR malay is too tiny and limited to liberal-alcholic drinking-malays.

we all want to believe that PAS is with us in this Allah issue,reciting 'good' news from Malaysia Insider or Malaysiakini....not even PAS website.

hope no more anti concert rally by PAS in Klang Valley or beer confisticating episode.

[SingaporeEhSai!]

whats the big hoo haa la? If the ruling govmen wanna use this to gain political mileage, dont give in to them la. Stop using the term or name lah...its not going to change anything if u cant use the term/word right?
:cool:

[bobkee]

whats the big hoo haa la? If the ruling govmen wanna use this to gain political mileage, dont give in to them la. Stop using the term or name lah...its not going to change anything if u cant use the term/word right?
:cool:Not going to change anything except 400+ years of tradition of use in the Archipelago, 2000+ years of use by our forebears, and the concession of theological, linguistics, anthropological, sociological and faith praxis of the Church to Putrajaya.

Yep .. nothing much will change ...

[silver_bird]

Selangor MB : "The word Allah is present in Selangor anthem"

# The word was an accepted general term for God in this context

# If “Allah” was used to describe God as a form of common understanding, there was nothing wrong in it

# However, the word must not be misused and action must be taken when it happens. For example, if the word Allah is written on an idol, then we must take action but this has never happened

The MB added that the police must be strict in not allowing street demonstrations in the state over this matter.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/7/nation/5427607&sec=nation

[bugbear]

shouldnt we ask Abraham/Ibrahim what he thinks? Or for that matter, ask GOD? :) :D :eek:

Cheers, m
Mind you do not get confuse between Allah in the Quran and Allah in the Alkitab. The reason Allah is used in the Alkitab can be found here. (http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2010/01/allah-and-tuhan-in-bible-translation/)

In the Alkitab, the almighty is refer as God, Lord, Jehovah. It would not be right if all the above words are roundly translated as Tuhan. Pray tell me how do you translate "My Lord God Jehovah..." into BM? ie Tuhan tuhan tuhan ku? Or do we translate it into Allah Tuhan Bapaku?

You be the judge.

[isarahim]

shouldnt we ask Abraham/Ibrahim what he thinks? Or for that matter, ask GOD?
God has already spoken on this matter in the above referred Ayah.

[usehead]

What sounds like God; but is NOT?

[isarahim]

PKR malay is too tiny and limited to liberal-alcholic drinking-malays.
This is a gross insult and moreover completely untrue.

I think you find far more alcohol drinking - and not forgetting hedonistic - Malays in UMNO.

[bobkee]

This is a gross insult and moreover completely untrue.

I think you find far more alcohol drinking - and not forgetting hedonistic - Malays in UMNO.Methinks there's some latent chauvinism and xenophobia in the post that you commented upon .. there .. I said it.

[bobkee]

Mind you do not get confuse between Allah in the Quran and Allah in the Alkitab. The reason Allah is used in the Alkitab can be found here. (http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2010/01/allah-and-tuhan-in-bible-translation/)

In the Alkitab, the almighty is refer as God, Lord, Jehovah. It would not be right if all the above words are roundly translated as Tuhan. Pray tell me how do you translate "My Lord God Jehovah..." into BM? ie Tuhan tuhan tuhan ku? Or do we translate it into Allah Tuhan Bapaku?

You be the judge.Relax lah bro :) .. don't lah use the same circular argument the Allah-exclusivists use. If we want folks to respect our right to belief and practice our faith as we please, it behooves us to grant the same courtesy to others as well.

The last shall be first, no?

[USJ27Resident]

This is a gross insult and moreover completely untrue.

I think you find far more alcohol drinking - and not forgetting hedonistic - Malays in UMNO.

you mean like this one ???

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5600/pic09464.th.jpg

allegedly curiosly looking like son of one of our late PMs.... ;)

[SingaporeEhSai!]

Not going to change anything except 400+ years of tradition of use in the Archipelago, 2000+ years of use by our forebears, and the concession of theological, linguistics, anthropological, sociological and faith praxis of the Church to Putrajaya.

Yep .. nothing much will change ...

Let bolehland be the exclusive rights holder to the word loh...why play into their hands?

[AllUrban]

never before non Moslem cling so much to PAS for survival becoz it represent 40% of Malay supporter inPR. DAP despite its always will always be seen as Chinese chauvinist party (not even Indian party?). PKR malay is too tiny and limited to liberal-alcholic drinking-malays.

we all want to believe that PAS is with us in this Allah issue,reciting 'good' news from Malaysia Insider or Malaysiakini....not even PAS website.

hope no more anti concert rally by PAS in Klang Valley or beer confisticating episode.why does liberal and alcoholic drinking have to go together when it comes to Muslims?

Cheers, m

[AllUrban]

Mind you do not get confuse between Allah in the Quran and Allah in the Alkitab. The reason Allah is used in the Alkitab can be found here. (http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2010/01/allah-and-tuhan-in-bible-translation/)

In the Alkitab, the almighty is refer as God, Lord, Jehovah. It would not be right if all the above words are roundly translated as Tuhan. Pray tell me how do you translate "My Lord God Jehovah..." into BM? ie Tuhan tuhan tuhan ku? Or do we translate it into Allah Tuhan Bapaku?

You be the judge.in that case I would say:

1) God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Lord/Vishnu/Tuhan is our perception of the higher power...the name and view reflect how we perceive...

In other words, the name we use is a reflection of our limitations.

2) "I am for my servant what he thinks of Me"

3) The more times you say that name, the more it can be seen as prayer...so I dont mind saying it again and again...even if it seems silly and repetitive. Not much worse than Tan Sri2, Dato' Sri2, Dato'2, tuan2 dan puan2 + ladies & gentlemen...

Or we could just use the word once and let God interpret it as preferred.

4) Let God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Lord/Vishnu/Tuhan be The Judge ... or have a Laugh at our behaviour

Cheers, m

ps. did you read the comment at the bottom of the link that you posted?


You are sorely mistaken because your Malay language is very weak. For you, Allah = God and Tuhan = Lord and Rabb. First, you have confused Arabic with Malay. The words “Allah” and “Rabb” do not belong to the Malay Language, they are Arabic. The more accurate translation is Tuhan = God because Tuhan is the generic term for deity just as God is. And Lord = Tuan in Malay (notice the absent h). As for Rabb, and Allah, it gets complicated because there are other words that connote God in Arabic such as ilah. Suffice it to say here that Allah is not a generic term for deity like Tuhan or God., it is a proper name of God according to Islam. So, the closest translation to the word Allah would be “Yahweh” and “Yahweh” is not some generic god but a proper name of God in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. So you got it all wrong! Again, “Allah” is not “God” and “Lord” is not “Tuhan”… In fact in Chritsianity, God and Lord are used interchangeably but Tuhan and Tuan are not in Malay so even in that there is a great difference between Malay and English…

[Good Guy]

Little minds (if they have at all) are pawns of evil minds.

Rid the evil minds; and the little minds may have a chance to learn a wee bit of wisdom about peace, tolerance, respect and compassion.

[Jey]

This is what's found in Wiki...

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah


Allah (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh, Turkish: Allah, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".[1][2][3] The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4]

[USJ27Resident]

This is what's found in Wiki...

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

Dude - NOT found in BN/UMNO's dictionary la... :rolleyes:

[bugbear]

in that case I would say:

1) God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Lord/Vishnu/Tuhan is our perception of the higher power...the name and view reflect how we perceive...

In other words, the name we use is a reflection of our limitations.

2) "I am for my servant what he thinks of Me"

3) The more times you say that name, the more it can be seen as prayer...so I dont mind saying it again and again...even if it seems silly and repetitive. Not much worse than Tan Sri2, Dato' Sri2, Dato'2, tuan2 dan puan2 + ladies & gentlemen...

Or we could just use the word once and let God interpret it as preferred.

4) Let God/Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/Lord/Vishnu/Tuhan be The Judge ... or have a Laugh at our behaviour

Cheers, m

ps. did you read the comment at the bottom of the link that you posted?
Allurban, all I see here is that Allah is just a generic term for God in the arabic language. I don't know where in the Quran that say the term Allah is only exclusively used by Islam. What the govenrnment did is not right that is to deny freedom of religion of Bumiputra Christian. Their action reek of political interference of how Christian in Malaysia practice their faith. Do you agree?

[isarahim]

I don't know where in the Quran that say the term Allah is only exclusively used by Islam.
As per the Ayah referred above, the Quran says exactly the opposite.

[bugbear]

As per the Ayah referred above, the Quran says exactly the opposite.
And so it is proven that the government is really being mischivious. :mad:

[zinglicious]

Nazri has responded to PAS acknowledgement of the usage of Allah as God by saying PAS is a political party, if you get what I mean. :confused: :confused: :confused:
What do you think he meant by that? Meant to be understood or just being mean to be meaningless? :p :confused: :p
http://www.mmail.com.my/content/23864-nazri-i-dont-believe-pas-islam

[chin_wan]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_n1T2LfVfN48/RtYYR9lZnVI/AAAAAAAAC_g/L-B0hHpmGm8/s800/raiseflag.jpg

[firefox]

I raise my hat to the ppl of East Malaysia even though they are the ones who would be affected by all these yet there are so calm and peaceful..not protesting too.

Why cant the fanatics of West Malaysia learn something from our brothers.

[Jey]

This was why I was saying the Catholic Church should just drop the matter...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

So whats the gain?

[Jey]

Another one... http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48857-judiciary-website-hacked

[xaviers]

This was why I was saying the Catholic Church should just drop the matter...

...

So whats the gain?

Sorry Jey, The problem is people are tired of saying "It's OK, never mind la". It will set precedence to a lot of other things.

[Blue Jasmine]

This was why I was saying the Catholic Church should just drop the matter...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

So whats the gain?


i agree...never argue with them just because....they are majority here. No harm just want peace. Maybe they can choose use the word Tuhan???

[jimmyay]

This was why I was saying the Catholic Church should just drop the matter...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

So whats the gain?

I cannot imagine these radical thinker would torch the church!!! They wanna start a religious war, is it?
:mad:
What sort of education system/religious studies/political influences/NONSENSE that teach them to use violence to solve matters?

The Church is the victim here. If the rakyat look away from this matter, we are letting the mob rules the country. In the future, it will fall on us too.

[avusblue]

What's the government's goal?

Allah (R)

or

Allah (TM)

[Jey]

Here is another one in PJ... http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48906-pj-catholic-church-attacked

[darylchan]

The more we fight, the more we are dancing to UMNO's tune. Anyone with average intelligence should be able to see what UMNO's goal is. Instead, we should all tell the government to get their arses back to work.

Religion and politics do not mix.

[mimosa]

Really sad to see where this is going. Looks like rock-bottom is not low enough for the Gomen.

[AllUrban]

Allurban, all I see here is that Allah is just a generic term for God in the arabic language. I don't know where in the Quran that say the term Allah is only exclusively used by Islam. What the govenrnment did is not right that is to deny freedom of religion of Bumiputra Christian. Their action reek of political interference of how Christian in Malaysia practice their faith. Do you agree?Bugbear, I agree that Allah can be used to describe a perception of God but it is not a 'generic' term for "God" ... Allah in the Islamic context is used as a specific title/name for "The God"

There are appropriate words in Arabic to describe God, rather than naming God. But whatever term is used, God is still God...no matter how we perceive God.

Allah is not exclusive to Islam because Allah is not supposed to exclusive. Actually, as Isarahim points out, the concept of Allah is very inclusive. Allah is not only One but All.

m knows that everyone should have the right to use the word Allah. But we would all be better off to acknowledge that, while God is God our perception of God may be different from others.

As an example, you choose to see (perceive) God as a whole composed of 3 indistinct yet distinct parts. I choose to see (perceive) God as a whole and singular entity. You choose to use masculine pronouns sometimes (He, Him) while I choose to avoid using them as much as possible.

We can both use the word Allah to describe what we see (perceive) because while we see (perceive) the presence of God differently, it is still the same GOD, the same All as One.

If people can acknowledge that there are different ways to see (perceive) ... and name ... that same God, then there would be no issue.

But if people refuse to accept that there are different ways to see (perceive) God ... for reasons of political or religious or social dogma ... then there is an issue.

This is not really an issue of "human rights" or religious freedoms as much as it is about GOD's Right to be worshipped by everyone who wants to worship GOD.

Politicians in Malaysia are trying to deny GOD the Right to be worshipped, because they refuse to recognize that there are many ways to perceive GOD and worship GOD.

Cheers, m

ps. yeah, I believe that GOD has Rights

[AllUrban]

I cannot imagine these radical thinker would torch the church!!! They wanna start a religious war, is it?
:mad:
What sort of education system/religious studies/political influences/NONSENSE that teach them to use violence to solve matters?

The Church is the victim here. If the rakyat look away from this matter, we are letting the mob rules the country. In the future, it will fall on us too.seems that these are just stupid kids taking the 'initative'. The real planned activities would take more time to organize

Cheers, m

[AllUrban]

What's the government's goal?

Allah (R)

or

Allah (TM)more like

"Allah, (mine mine mine all mine. Not yours. Mine!)

Oh and please Vote BN for 1Malaysia."

Cheers, m

[bobkee]

This was why I was saying the Catholic Church should just drop the matter...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48874-kl-church-torched-

So whats the gain?Apparently, they've gotten 1 Catholic Church and 2 Protestant churches in the Klang Valley. Too bad they missed St. Mary's in Brickfields. They would've gotten us all then; Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

At the very least, it would've done wonders to the cause of Ecumenism in Malaysia.

yang cuba mencari tepian perak (aka silver lining)

[Nick Chia]

What a shame , from something which is not significant the gomen have fuel it to a full blown fire. Who is to gain ? Malaysia ? Plain stupidity and every politician is jumping in to gain mileage. To nip the bud they should have put those cowhead protesters into ISA and now put everyone who toy with 'Allah"
into ISA.

[Jey]

True wisdom is "giving in especially when you know you are right". This is a hard saying, and harder still to follow but few know the profound effect of doing it. Its like apologizing first, when you are not in the wrong. It will cause such a feeling of shame and remorse in the other party that they will stop their antagonism and will likewise apologize also and own up. (But dont expect it, just do it sincerely without any expectation.)

But how many want to follow this? :D

If you want to be up in arms and become defensive because you are convinced you are right, it will only be a lose-lose situation. Being defensive doesn't work in all situations and matters will only become worse. There are times and situations you need to stand up and be counted for something. Unfortunately this issue is not one of it. The Herald had unwittingly played itself into the hands of the political parties that have twisted this saga for their own political mileage. Knowing which to stand up to and which to give in takes wisdom as above described. Such uncommon wisdom is the fruit of uncommon courage. ;)

[AllUrban]

What a shame , from something which is not significant the gomen have fuel it to a full blown fire. Who is to gain ? Malaysia ? Plain stupidity and every politician is jumping in to gain mileage. To nip the bud they should have put those cowhead protesters into ISA and now put everyone who toy with 'Allah"
into ISA.including the spin Doctor (hi)M-self?

Cheers, m

[silver_bird]

PM Najib : " Don't point fingers at UMNO" !!!
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48926-najib-angrily-denies-umno-raising-tension-in-allah-issue

[USJ27Resident]

Apparently, they've gotten 1 Catholic Church and 2 Protestant churches in the Klang Valley....

Are we gonna end up like the Flores and Sulawesi :eek:

I cannot believe these people can allow themselves to be used by the politicians for political gains.... I also would BLAME any so called religious leaders that preaches violence to settle matters... regardless of which side of the fence....

Anyone that professes violence ought to get a taste of their own medicine first!! :mad:

[USJ27Resident]

PM Najib : " Don't point fingers at UMNO" !!!
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48926-najib-angrily-denies-umno-raising-tension-in-allah-issue

Yaaaaa.... we BELIEVE you... we DON'T BELIEVE your kuncu-kuncu!!! :mad: Half the geng is harping on it - including your predecessors... !!! :rolleyes:


Both Najib and Hishammuddin had over the past two days said that Muslims had a right to protest the “Allah” ruling within mosque compounds despite fears it might escalate tension in the country.

Now who looks stupid?? 1 MALAYSIA BULLSH!T...

[Justme123]

True wisdom is "giving in especially when you know you are right". This is a hard saying, and harder still to follow but few know the profound effect of doing it. Its like apologizing first, when you are not in the wrong. It will cause such a feeling of shame and remorse in the other party that they will stop their antagonism and will likewise apologize also and own up. (But dont expect it, just do it sincerely without any expectation.)

But how many want to follow this? :D

If you want to be up in arms and become defensive because you are convinced you are right, it will only be a lose-lose situation. Being defensive doesn't work in all situations and matters will only become worse. There are times and situations you need to stand up and be counted for something. Unfortunately this issue is not one of it. The Herald had unwittingly played itself into the hands of the political parties that have twisted this saga for their own political mileage. Knowing which to stand up to and which to give in takes wisdom as above described. Such uncommon wisdom is the fruit of uncommon courage. ;)Perhaps it is something like magnanimous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/magnanimous?db=luna), i.e.

1. generous in forgiving an insult or injury; free from petty resentfulness or vindictiveness: to be magnanimous toward one's enemies.
2. high-minded; noble: a just and magnanimous ruler.
3. proceeding from or revealing generosity or nobility of mind, character, etc.: a magnanimous gesture of forgiveness.

I think the stakes are too high for both parties to relent in this particular disputes at present.
The stakes here involve the primal emotion of fear of mortality and personal salvation for many with different emotional states and EQ.
Somehow for anyone to give in would give them the sense that their foundation of salvation would crumble. This is happening at the subconscious level.

I don't agree that any human individual or group should claim ownership over any words (other than legally copyrighted ones).
Clinging to a mere word is emotionally idolizing the alphabets rather than focussing on the real intended referent.
Note Chuang Tzu, the Tao that can be spoken is not the everlasting Tao, which is similarly applicable to 'god'.

The Herald should pursue its case in court and hopefully human principles will prevail.

Subsequently, imo, the Herald and the Catholics should made a magnanimouns attempt to wean themselves from using that word and focus on the referent with a different sound and alphabets.

But better still, wean off the concept of god which has brought forth so much violence and hardship to humanity. There are many alternatives to the meaning of life which are less violent prone.

Steven Weinberg's saying has a lot of truth to it, especially with theistic religions.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - )

[besitai2007]

Some people are trying to instigate the Christians in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Christians, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.

[AllUrban]

Some people are trying to instigate the Christians in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Christians, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.And if I may add,

Some people are trying to instigate the Muslims in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Muslims, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.

Are the Muslims of Malaysia ready to stand up and protect our Christian neighbours and friends.

I am.

Cheers, m

[Hiliary]

And if I may add,

Some people are trying to instigate the Muslims in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Muslims, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.

Are the Muslims of Malaysia ready to stand up and protect our Christian neighbours and friends.

I am.

Cheers, m

You deserve the Sane Person of the Day Award.

[ivanhow]

And if I may add,

Some people are trying to instigate the Muslims in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Muslims, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.

Are the Muslims of Malaysia ready to stand up and protect our Christian neighbours and friends.

I am.

Cheers, m
M, you are one of the few who is right thinking, love (and law) abiding muslim. I am sure there are more in this community. But the problem is, there are those who have an extremist tendency and they also wear the same hat as you do. And, these group profess the same, and is also your so called 'brother' and 'sister' in the umat. Why do you think this problem exist in this country (and in some parts of the world). Can you throw some light, so we can understand it better and perhaps help them to get out from their predicament ?

[jimmyay]

PM Najib : " Don't point fingers at UMNO" !!!
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48926-najib-angrily-denies-umno-raising-tension-in-allah-issue

It's is their action that gives confusing belief. They lead the country by lousy example and some dimwit just follow blindly
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Last time they humiliated Hindu by Cow-Head. Now this.... "Oh, i don't know where the fire come from?

What happened to those cow-head guys? Are they jailed?

[kuma]

And if I may add,

Some people are trying to instigate the Muslims in this country to retaliate and make it an all out conflct. Muslims, don't fall into the trap so that the government cannot proclaim an emergency and suspend all legitimate governments.

Are the Muslims of Malaysia ready to stand up and protect our Christian neighbours and friends.

I am.

Cheers, m

I applaud You! Someone voted you the 'Most Sane Person Today' I agree...However I might add that you are also probably the 'Most Optimistic Person For Today' :(

[dragonfly]

The work of arson on the churches <strike>is</strike> may be the work of christians themselves to gain sympathy and at the same time put the govt/UMNO and malay/muslim in bad light. I am not saying this but overheard the discussion among a 'certain' community in my work place.

PM already said don't blame UMNO, and let's see what statement the police going to make after investigations!

[firefox]

The damage to the country is already done, these news is being relayed all over the world right now....All because of a WORD..

I do expect calls from relatives overseas to carify the situation in KL.

[bslee]

It may not come as a surprise that this may have happened in a neighboring country time and again, but NOW IT HAPPENS IN MALAYSIA!...THIS IS SERIOUS! REALLY SERIOUS!

[tupai]

I am in Saigon watching the Vietnamese up the momentum to get FDI and move their country ahead...

and I am getting so depressed at this very moment that my fellow Malaysians are <strike>in riots, smashing car windows, holding angry rallies</strike> in the 1name of God's 99 names! AND the PM is losing it!

The hell with 1malaysia!

May Allah help us all!

I am coming home! If its my home at all!


Yang Banyak sedih latotupai

( Admin note - all not substantiated. Who said these ... did you read it off an SMS?)

[AllUrban]

I applaud You! Someone voted you the 'Most Sane Person Today' I agree...However I might add that you are also probably the 'Most Optimistic Person For Today' :(HAHAHAHAHAHHA I can live with that. Hope is an amazing concept.


M, you are one of the few who is right thinking, love (and law) abiding muslim. I am sure there are more in this community. But the problem is, there are those who have an extremist tendency and they also wear the same hat as you do. And, these group profess the same, and is also your so called 'brother' and 'sister' in the umat. Why do you think this problem exist in this country (and in some parts of the world). Can you throw some light, so we can understand it better and perhaps help them to get out from their predicament ?It's pretty simple...Many muslims today live in coutries where the government does not support freedom of speech in the name of "unity" and security.

And from that, many Muslims prefer a world where they can simply follow and not think. Islam is truly the antithesis of that kind of religion. Muslims are not supposed to have blind faith...they are supposed to be curious and critical and educated.

But it is easier to be led like sheep. Shaytan (the tempter, not Satan the 'evil one') promised that he would lead God's people astray by encouraging ignorance and blind faith.

Another factor behind 'extremism' is simply feelings of anger & frustration & humilitation. Deep, burning societal anger and frustration ... frustration with their own governments, with their communities, with the corruption and falsehood of their leaders, with the lack of freedom of speech and the knowledge of how to think properly and critically.

Not to mention anger with foreign governments that support the local governments and people who demonize their religion and dehumanize them without knowing who they really are.

Ivanhow, I wear many hats. Some people would only see the "muslim" hat and think they know me. Others would try to look for a deeper understanding. Guess which group is in the majority?

Cheers, m

[bslee]

and I am getting so depressed at this very moment that my fellow Malaysians are in riots, smashing car windows, holding angry rallies in the 1name of God's 99 names! AND the PM is losing it!


Eh?.. has it gone to that bad?..or did I miss much of whats happening?

[AllUrban]

It may not come as a surprise that this may have happened in a neighboring country time and again, but NOW IT HAPPENS IN MALAYSIA!...THIS IS SERIOUS! REALLY SERIOUS!But when it happens in the neighbouring country, everyone stands together.

The late Gus Dur (Abdurrahman Wahid) was a religious leader and scholar as well as president...and he called on Muslims to protect churches during those trying times.

The people who perpetrated those heinous acts were arrested and punished in court.

And in recent elections the religious parties lost votes...even in the face of economic hardships.

So I know which direction our neighbouring country has chosen.

Would Abdullah Badawi, or Nik Aziz Nik Mat who are also religious men and leaders, also do the same?

Cheers, m

er...presumably you are referring to the large neighbouring country to the south, east and west of ours?

[USJ27Resident]

And if I may add,

Are the Muslims of Malaysia ready to stand up and protect our Christian neighbours and friends.

I am.

Cheers, m

AllUrban.... perhaps Malaysians need more Canadians coming to Malaysia and settling down here... I for one, am glad to have met your acquaintance and knowing you.... :)


and I am getting so depressed at this very moment that my fellow Malaysians are in riots, smashing car windows, holding angry rallies in the 1name of God's 99 names! AND the PM is losing it!

The hell with 1malaysia!


Yang Banyak sedih latotupai

Just received a txt sms about riots/disturbance in Bangsar and in PJ.... pls DO NOT mass fwd these txt sms if anyone of you have received them. It IS NOTHING BUT RUMOURS and can get you arrest for inciting further unrest!!!

[Vixey]

The work of arson on the churches <strike>is</strike> may be the work of christians themselves to gain sympathy and at the same time put the govt/UMNO and malay/muslim in bad light. I am not saying this but overheard the discussion among a 'certain' community in my work place.

PM already said don't blame UMNO, and let's see what statement the police going to make after investigations!

This is totally ridiculous!

No Christian/Catholic would ever dream of torching their place of worship to gain sympathy!

[Naka]

There is a radio discussion on 585 -------ABC Radio........right now by a lady from KL.

[VeeJay]

Just received a txt sms about riots/disturbance in Bangsar and in PJ.... pls DO NOT mass fwd these txt sms if anyone of you have received them. It IS NOTHING BUT RUMOURS and can get you arrest for inciting further unrest!!!

Its not rumors...it was report on online news as well read (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48947-mild-protests-after-friday-prayers-following-church-attacks)

[Vixey]

Its not rumors...it was report on online news as well read (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48947-mild-protests-after-friday-prayers-following-church-attacks)

Malaysian Insider posted another report saying that while reports were made, police didn't not come across any smashed cars...

[teacherwong]

Feel so upset that why some of the people are moving backward and let the country not in peace???? You know, while I'm teaching Pendidikan Sivik dan Kewarganegaraan in school and told the students to love the country and respect each race and religion.... but, what is happening now? :(

[shthang]

it's a dark day for all of us in Boleh. everyone of all races dat i met today was very sad about this. the country and ppl are undergoing a tough period and the international media is reporting this extensively.

we all must condemn this cowardly act but please stay united, cool and not emotional during this sensitive and difficult period.

[mimosa]

Wow, BBC has given us front page.

Pity I don't have the international news channels on my Astro. I would have liked to hear what they had to say.

[firefox]

This is totally ridiculous!

No Christian/Catholic would ever dream of torching their place of worship to gain sympathy!


Obviously for Gods sake, who is this guy who said this?

[mWong]

You know, while I'm teaching Pendidikan Sivik dan Kewarganegaraan in school and told the students to love the country and respect each race and religion.... but, what is happening now? :(

While teaching the syllabus on loving & respecting each other and their religion, was there any discussions at all involving the children how these can be achieved? How much time was spent on this topic? A whole period or two? What I would prefer is to throw away all these sivik and moral books. Every week, bring up a topic and let the children discuss or debate on it. Better still, let the children decide what they want to bring up for discussion. What we are doing now is make the children memorize all the points just to pass the sivik and moral exam.

Like any rational person, I am also really angry, scared and depressed with these happenings.

[irisbaggins]

Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan,
Kesetiaan kepada Raja and Negara,
Keluhuran Perlembagaan,
Kedaulatan Undang-undang,
Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan.

.....................are there still meaning to these? :confused: :(

[kwchang]

Its not rumors...it was report on online news as well read (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48947-mild-protests-after-friday-prayers-following-church-attacks)
You provided the link but DID YOU READ the contents? In it it said that the police had dismissed reports of windscreens being smashed.

What is it that you did not understand? Or are you "reading" what you wanted to read?

Sorry, until it is verified, you and tupai are getting a banana.

[dragonfly]

I am having problem accessing Malaysiakini since 5.00pm today. Anyone else experienced the same?

[USJ27Resident]

The work of arson on the churches <strike>is</strike> may be the work of christians themselves to gain sympathy and at the same time put the govt/UMNO and malay/muslim in bad light....!

Brother... what were you thinking, when you wrote this... ??? :eek:

Sheeeeeesh!!! :rolleyes:

Anyway - IF I GET ANOTHER TXT or SMS about unrest or riots or whatnots.... I am making a police report.... on the sender, for causing/stoking unrest and panic.... I MEAN IT.... and please, if you get the sms'es... DO THE SAME... only then, will this sh!t stop..!!!..

[StonTemplePilot]

You provided the link but DID YOU READ the contents? In it it said that the police had dismissed reports of windscreens being smashed.

What is it that you did not understand? Or are you "reading" what you wanted to read?

Sorry, until it is verified, you and tupai are getting a banana.

Does it mean that if the uniformed thugs dismissed it, it is not true??

[kwchang]

Does it mean that if the uniformed thugs dismissed it, it is not true??
The only way we can accept information is to have verifiable references. The lack of any would mean we cannot be an accessory to a possible rumour.

Let me ask you this, if someone sent you an SMS regarding any item, how do you take it ....

a) it must be real because you know the person
b) it must be real because the message implicated a wrong-doing by someone you consider as a crook
c) it is real because it concurs with your own personal believes

I can go on .... do you get the picture?

If you said yes to all the above, then I shall say you are not any better than the very same person that form wrong ideas and hang others without trial.

[StonTemplePilot]

From a verifiable source

"IGP Tan Sri Musa Hasan denied reports of a church attack in Kampung Subang even though Selangor CPO Datuk Khalid Abu Bakar had confirmed the incident.

“He did not tell me so it did not happen,” he told reporters at Bukit Aman here.

[Vixey]

You provided the link but DID YOU READ the contents? In it it said that the police had dismissed reports of windscreens being smashed.

What is it that you did not understand? Or are you "reading" what you wanted to read?

Sorry, until it is verified, you and tupai are getting a banana.

Actually Chang, I was following it closely, the first report had FOUR churches and cars smashed, then they changed it to 4 churches and the no cars found smashed version.

At one point there were two versions. So, I don't think he was mistaken. By the time he posted it, the story was updated.

[kwchang]

...At one point there were two versions. So, I don't think he was mistaken. By the time he posted it, the story was updated.
OK, so I missed the first version. My apologies then. However, I got to work on what I can use as verification. I will take Vixey's word for it and withdraw the bananas. However, the corrections stay. We don't know why the stories were changed.

These sort of stories are a headache for me to follow ... so please don't jump and post the first read you make, knowing very well the original story can get changed at the source for whatever reason.

[kwchang]

The work of arson on the churches <strike>is</strike> may be the work of christians themselves to gain sympathy and at the same time put the govt/UMNO and malay/muslim in bad light. I am not saying this but overheard the discussion among a 'certain' community in my work place.

OK, this is a rumour with no verifiable truth in it ... something overheard cannot qualify as truth and a very dangerous point to be posted in a public forum.

[silver_bird]

Two more incidents at churches
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/8/nation/20100108234150&sec=nation

[kwchang]

...PKR malay is too tiny and limited to liberal-alcholic drinking-malays..
Missed this one ... generalisation, slander and getting personal

[ivanhow]

HAHAHAHAHAHHA I can live with that. Hope is an amazing concept.

It's pretty simple...Many muslims today live in coutries where the government does not support freedom of speech in the name of "unity" and security.

And from that, many Muslims prefer a world where they can simply follow and not think. Islam is truly the antithesis of that kind of religion. Muslims are not supposed to have blind faith...they are supposed to be curious and critical and educated.

But it is easier to be led like sheep. Shaytan (the tempter, not Satan the 'evil one') promised that he would lead God's people astray by encouraging ignorance and blind faith.

Another factor behind 'extremism' is simply feelings of anger & frustration & humilitation. Deep, burning societal anger and frustration ... frustration with their own governments, with their communities, with the corruption and falsehood of their leaders, with the lack of freedom of speech and the knowledge of how to think properly and critically.

Not to mention anger with foreign governments that support the local governments and people who demonize their religion and dehumanize them without knowing who they really are.

Ivanhow, I wear many hats. Some people would only see the "muslim" hat and think they know me. Others would try to look for a deeper understanding. Guess which group is in the majority?

Cheers, m

Hmmm... I am sure you wear many hats. I was refering to the 'umat' hat, as every follower of the same religion would be considered as one.

I was wondering if there cud be an underlying reason for this trend. Such as when there an individual or group who did something that was regarded as unpalatable to some (such as the 'Allah' ruling in the High Court of Malaya), then some section of the muslim community would mobilise themselves or their 'pawns' to react and 'emotionalise' the situation. Cud it be that there are some so called 'leaders' amongst the group who are willing to capitalise on such issues, by (mis)leading the group into such behavior, since they are easily mobilised (or manipulated) in their thinking?

But then even if they exhibit such tendency, was it not possible for that tendency to be rectified by the teachings (as some sort of reality check)?
I am just trying to figure out whether this same behavior could happen to other religions around the world. Usually most religions would advocate peace or voice their displeasure peacefully.

They say the way to solve a problem is to understand what/where the problem is.

[zinglicious]

Been on the usj.com.my/ apart from the car alarm to reply to Robertec as a courtesy, just cant post much because I am too depressed to post anything. What's going on? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7qBq7cJg_s

[StonTemplePilot]

http://malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29488:selangor-cpo-two-more-incidents-in-selangor&catid=19:newscommentaries&Itemid=100131

A pastor was manhandled by four men before they vandalised a church in Ampang at around 6.30pm on Friday.

Verified by the Selangor CPO and reported by the politically correct daily TheSTar

[dragonfly]

What about the judge who delivered the verdict? Is she being given adequate protection? and also the pastor who challenged the issue in court?

[USJ27Resident]

Hmmm...

They say the way to solve a problem is to understand what/where the problem is.

Unfortunately, most of the times it is done this way ,... find out WHO is the cause of the problem..... :rolleyes:

[silver_bird]

PAS president Abdul Hadi on fire-bombings of three Klang Valley churches :

# The act is “uncivilised” and against Islam.

# Why did they burn and attack the churches?

# Where did they learn this from?

# The perpetrators were ignorant of Islam. Islam respects the rights of other to practise their own religion, have their own places of worship, including churches.”

# This freedom extended even during the times of war between Muslims and non-Muslims. Even when Muslims lands were invaded, churches were protected

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49033-hadi-flays-church-arson-says-dialogue-key-to-allah-issue

[Sentinel]

What is happening is actually a collapse of the system of government over the years, according to ex-Finance Minister Tengku Razaleigh, in a speech recently at ISEAS in Singapore. He also said: "Many post-colonial societies that began with democratic institutions saw democracy collapse afterwards into dictatorship. I can think of Nigeria, Pakistan and Kenya, for example.

"What has not been said is that underneath the appearance of continuity, and over two decades, Malaysia has quietly undergone the same process.

"There has been, beneath the surface, a decisive rupture with the federal, constitutional and democratic system upon which we were founded, and which alone confers legitimacy.

"What replaced it was an authoritarianism based on personality. Policy was set according to personal whims of the leader, which is to say that in areas such as the economy and foreign affairs, the country was run according to the personal enthusiasms and pet peeves of individual leaders."

You may read the entire speech HERE. (http://www.malaysianmirror.com/homedetail/45-home/25703-holding-the-country-together) if you wish.

[ivanhow]

Unfortunately, most of the times it is done this way ,... find out WHO is the cause of the problem..... :rolleyes:
Very unfortunately, the 'WHO' may never be known because when there is no concrete evidence, there will always be wishy washy investigations. Have we heard of investigations that end up prosecuting the genuine culprits? Somehow, the real 'WHO' may never be revealed. Rather than trying to nail the 'WHO', why not try and nail the 'WHY's and push for positive action no matter WHO?

I wonder how cud top national leaders condone to actions by a massive group to stage protests under the umbrella of religion. Isn't it unacceptable for top national leaders to condone to such such massive protests that could jeopardise national harmony? Which component party has guts and the will to confront the top national leaders who are in power? When top leaders stage such behavior, all the rest will behave in the same manner because they are suppose to toe the line so to speak. It is quite useless to seek out the 'WHO' in such case.

[Feynman]

Fourth church attacked. Wonder when will it stop??

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49037-pj-church-attacked-minor-damage

[silver_bird]

PM Najid announced Govt to allocate RM500k to rebuild burnt Metro Tabernacle Church.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49048-najib-announces-rm500000-aid-for-gutted-church

[tupai]

I am in Saigon watching the Vietnamese up the momentum to get FDI and move their country ahead...

and I am getting so depressed at this very moment that my fellow Malaysians are <strike>in riots, smashing car windows, holding angry rallies</strike> in the 1name of God's 99 names! AND the PM is losing it!

The hell with 1malaysia!

May Allah help us all!

I am coming home! If its my home at all!


Yang Banyak sedih latotupai

( Admin note - all not substantiated. Who said these ... did you read it off an SMS?)

I am guilty as charged. Its outta character. I am sorry. I deserve that pisang tanduk.

Yang Blur sotong latotupai :o

[trex92]

This is really laughable:-


KUALA LUMPUR: Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Musa Hassan has advised churches to tighten the security at their premises as there are not enough police officers to guard them.

He said the churches may up the security by hiring guards as the police force did not have enough manpower to keep watch at every church.

"In Petaling Jaya alone, there are 62 churches and a total of 200 in Selangor and Kuala Lumpur.

So in total, 200 churches and yet not enough police manpower just to cover these 200? No wonder the crime rates in Malaysia is getting higher and higher.... This is a really lousy excuse for the IGP to give. Even if station 1 policeman at every church, he just needs 200. Less would be needed if the IGP smartens up and strategise patrols by area.

[USJ27Resident]

"What replaced it was an authoritarianism based on personality. Policy was set according to personal whims of the leader, which is to say that in areas such as the economy and foreign affairs, the country was run according to the personal enthusiasms and pet peeves of individual leaders."[/I]

holy crap!!! meaning.... all these years our country was ruled/run by a dictator (or wazzit a doctor!!) and we all never realised it ..... sheeeesh!! must've been some real strong medicine or hallucinogens... to have spaced out a whole nation.... :eek:

[silver_bird]

Brick Hurled At Taman Menara Maju Surau
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/news_lite.php?id=467266

[VeeJay]

You provided the link but DID YOU READ the contents? In it it said that the police had dismissed reports of windscreens being smashed.

What is it that you did not understand? Or are you "reading" what you wanted to read?

Sorry, until it is verified, you and tupai are getting a banana.

Sorry Boss, have no ill intention here...you could check my history here.... when I saw your post I was lost.....also lost of words.....

But then thanks to Vixey, I owe you one, mate,... else would have been found guilty....anyways, I will post more cautiously... phew

[ivanhow]

OK, so I missed the first version. My apologies then. However, I got to work on what I can use as verification. I will take Vixey's word for it and withdraw the bananas. However, the corrections stay. We don't know why the stories were changed.

These sort of stories are a headache for me to follow ... so please don't jump and post the first read you make, knowing very well the original story can get changed at the source for whatever reason.
Hi KW, For this reason, i think it is wise to allow postings to capture short snapshots or short quotes (one or two paragraphs) from the online media as an evidence of the source of online content (not the whole article) for the purpose of justifying one's pov (point of view) or argument. As there may be no other means to capture them at the time the viewer read them, and later found to have changed. Only on very rare instances was it possible to get a secondary verifier like Vixey.


Another problem is that links can get stale (lost) like the ones Vixey and you quoted from Veejay's original quote.



Its not rumors...it was report on online news as well read (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/48947-mild-protests-after-friday-prayers-following-church-attacks)Malaysian Insider posted another report saying that while reports were made, police didn't not come across any smashed cars...

I actually lost your argument when the link became stale, before Vixey pointed out her observations.

Note: This is not to say it is the fault of KWChang or Veejay, but is a problem of online media. Contents can and may change over time if not captured there and then. Vixey - thanks for highlighting your observations. Veejay could have been found guilty thru no fault of his, and worse he could not produce evidence when needed if not for Vixey.

[silver_bird]

Attempted arson on All Saints Church and a school in Taiping, Perak.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/10/nation/20100110121327&sec=nation

[bslee]

I just received a circular from USJ9 mosque, saying there's going to be a gathering woth anticipation of some 4000 people TODAY SUNDAY from 5pm onwards for some organized program. I've NO idea what program this as there's nothing specific mentioned. I gather the circular is for us residents in this area to tolerate a large amount of traffic centered around the mosque area.

I HAVE THE CIRCULAR IN HAND, NO rumor.

5pm TODAY!

[silver_bird]

I just received a circular from USJ9 mosque, saying there's going to be a gathering woth anticipation of some 4000 people TODAY SUNDAY from 5pm onwards for some organized program. I've NO idea what program this as there's nothing specific mentioned. I gather the circular is for us residents in this area to tolerate a large amount of traffic centered around the mosque area.

I HAVE THE CIRCULAR IN HAND, NO rumor.

5pm TODAY!


Is this post relevant to the above ?
http://alfalahusj9.blogspot.com/

[bslee]

Is this post relevant to the above ?
http://alfalahusj9.blogspot.com/

Could be. I just hope its not another organized demo for this controversy.

[silver_bird]

Dear KWChang,
Since contents of "Home Ministry to allow protests against ‘Allah’ ruling" & "Court say yes to Allah" are quite similar, how about intergrating them into one thread. Thanks.

[isarahim]

Actually previous mergings of popular threads have seldom been successful. It's just served to mess up the line of discussion. (Assumed there was one in the first place.... ;-)....)

[keny]

NST 7/1/10 PAS fully supports the government's decision to appeal against the high court decision hat allows Catholic weekly Herald to use the word "Allah" and want the ruling reversed.

[isarahim]

NST 7/1/10 PAS fully supports the government's decision to appeal against the high court decision hat allows Catholic weekly Herald to use the word "Allah" and want the ruling reversed.
Keny, what is your agenda? This posting is your own concoction. There is no such statement from PAS. Else, give a link.

[keny]

some malay guys sent me these. i fear both extreme religious malays and alcoholic malays.


http://mstar.com.my/berita/cerita.asp?file=/2010/1/4/mstar_berita/20100104184356&sec=mstar_berita


http://pas.org.my/v2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2596:pas-kecewa-mahkamah-benarkan-perkataan-allah-dalam-mingguan-herald-the-catholic&catid=20:kenyataan-rasmi&Itemid=99

[silver_bird]

8th church attacked (in Seremban)
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49181-eighth-church-attack-in-seremban

[Sentinel]

NST 7/1/10 PAS fully supports the government's decision to appeal against the high court decision hat allows Catholic weekly Herald to use the word "Allah" and want the ruling reversed.The other day you called PKR members "alcohol drinking Malays" and you got banana'ed. Today you posted this?

[silver_bird]

Selangor Police Chief Khalid Abu Bakar issued a warning against any demonstrations planned at the Assumption Church in Petaling Jaya, on Jan 13.
He added that any illegal demonstration would not help ease the situation, instead it would only make it worst.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/news_lite.php?id=467397

But demonstration at National Mosque and seven other mosques last week was allowed !!!

[Jey]

That is because the planned demo in-front of the Assunta Church is by the Hindraf. Biasalah... double standard is nothing new. :mad:

Also this is not really a violent demo per se like what we have seen recently. Its just a candle light vigil to show solidarity with victims.

Source: http://www.makkal.org/content/hindraf-candle-vigil-protest-against-state-sponsored-arson

[AllUrban]

The other day you called PKR members "alcohol drinking Malays" and you got banana'ed. Today you posted this?not to mention this:


some malay guys sent me these. i fear both extreme religious malays and alcoholic malays. Keny, humbly suggest that you stay away from mosques later at night and early in the morning before dawn, because that's when the extremely religious come to pray :rolleyes: Then they go and do dangerous things that are damaging Malaysian society...like eating roti canai and drinking teh tarik (all that sugar & diabetes, you know).

Or maybe you ought to know that:

1) the extremely religious are often blinded by 'faith'
2) the alcoholic are blinded by their addictions.

If you are in control of your own mind around such people...you have nothing to fear.

Cheers, m

[Blue Jasmine]

another church in seremban is being attacked!!!

is this getting under controlled? why they do all this things? i think those that do this thing have such low EQ and IQ. Why let other suffer for the things that they didnt say? If they want to find fault go find those who say that thing first. Now all sorts of church are being targeted. What will happen next?

DOnt go church is it????!!!!! MAD!!!!

[Blue Jasmine]

not to mention this:

If you are in control of your own mind around such people...you have nothing to fear.

Cheers, m


we have nothing to fear???? i doubt so...see what happen to indonesia in year 1997. there are plenty to fear........be prepared for the worst.

[umadavid]

another church in seremban is being attacked!!!

is this getting under controlled? why they do all this things? i think those that do this thing have such low EQ and IQ. Why let other suffer for the things that they didnt say? If they want to find fault go find those who say that thing first. Now all sorts of church are being targeted. What will happen next?

DOnt go church is it????!!!!! MAD!!!!
Actually, this has been a wake up call for Christians who had been happy to go with flow and laid back thus far. The churches have seen increased attendance since the uncalled for attacks. People are fired up in their faith and not taking things for granted anymore. There is a silver lining to be found even in this.

[AllUrban]

we have nothing to fear???? i doubt so...see what happen to indonesia in year 1997. there are plenty to fear........be prepared for the worst.as the saying goes, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Have strong faith, not blind faith...and you will fear nothing ... except that you have not done enough good on this world.

That is my only fear...that I have not done enough good in this life

Cheers, m

[Nick Chia]

Dear men and women of Christian faith, be strong and faithful. If they want 'Allah" for themselves give it to them for those who believed in the Lord it is a small gesture of giving so that you have eternal life. Do not blashemy others as Lord works in a mysterious way.

Lets get back to unite this beautiful country and show the world how tolerant and forgiving malaysians are known. Peace to all and get on with our nation building, for our next generation will be proud if we are able to respect each other and move on. Let not a few selfish beings detour our goal for the future.

[bobkee]

How to get on with nation building when there still exist those who refuse to consider others as rightful citizens and fellow stakeholders?

[jimmyay]

I hope more & more Muslim can come out and knock some sense to these radical groups/individuals. It is hard for non-Muslim to say anything.

[bobkee]

Selangor Police Chief Khalid Abu Bakar issued a warning against any demonstrations planned at the Assumption Church in Petaling Jaya, on Jan 13.
He added that any illegal demonstration would not help ease the situation, instead it would only make it worst.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/news_lite.php?id=467397

But demonstration at National Mosque and seven other mosques last week was allowed !!!The so-called demonstration is planned to be a candlelight vigil organised by Hindus in solidarity with the victims of arson.

[Nick Chia]

Less is done the better , otherwise the prepatrators will rejoice. A vigil then follow by a protest and on and on. Suggest the gomen to have a gag order
by all parties and then we can move on.

[Nick Chia]

By retaliating, we are as selfish and mentally unstable as the prepatrators. Do you want to do two wrongs to get it right ? Do you want to be like the natives that thinks that Prince Philip is their God as in one of the National Geograhic Channel. Just relax and tell yourself it shall passed or switch on to another channel

[USJ27Resident]

How to get on with nation building when there still exist those who refuse to consider others as rightful citizens and fellow stakeholders?

Bob... bigots,extremists and whatnots exist in every society.... just realised that in our society, the 'non-bumi' citizens got screwed from day 1... and kept quiet about it... Now that we want to claim our rightful place in this beautiful land - the so called "landowners" are telling all to SHUT-UP or......

Yunno, everyday I hear the TDC tagline...Malaysia Truly Asia... its had to believe it anymore... just like the crap tagline called 1Malaysia... :(


I hope more & more Muslim can come out and knock some sense to these radical groups/individuals. It is hard for non-Muslim to say anything.

Yup... more people like Isarahim and AllUrban.... sadly they are few and far apart.... the rest are fearful of being labelled as traitor or kufur to their faith.... so they just keep quiet and pray this would just blow over....

Seriously blame the so called political leaders for this mess... for harping on it... for fanning it... and for NOT DOING ENOUGH to contain it NOW!

[chin_wan]

Yup... more people like Isarahim and AllUrban.... sadly they are few and far apart.... the rest are fearful of being labelled as traitor or kufur to their faith.... so they just keep quiet and pray this would just blow over....



Not so true any more. Help from the Muslim community is here. :)

See: http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/11/nation/20100111173925&sec=nation

[bslee]

Seriously blame the so called political leaders for this mess... for harping on it... for fanning it... and for NOT DOING ENOUGH to contain it NOW!

Achievement and results todate? ZERO!
Under former PM? MINUS ZERO... in other words, WASTED TIME!
KPI? Another ficticious fantasy that doesn't prove anything other than we quietly award nothing else more deserving than ZERO.
When we have political interferences like urging hotels to review rates, another fler saying its weird to speak English here, expect me or anyone else to be optimistic? (except blur blur very blur sotongs who support them, ignore whats going on or just don't know whats actually happening).
Now we hear of molotov cocktails for breakfast!

[bobkee]

Bob... bigots,extremists and whatnots exist in every society.... just realised that in our society, the 'non-bumi' citizens got screwed from day 1... and kept quiet about it... Now that we want to claim our rightful place in this beautiful land - the so called "landowners" are telling all to SHUT-UP or......

Yunno, everyday I hear the TDC tagline...Malaysia Truly Asia... its had to believe it anymore... just like the crap tagline called 1Malaysia... :(



Yup... more people like Isarahim and AllUrban.... sadly they are few and far apart.... the rest are fearful of being labelled as traitor or kufur to their faith.... so they just keep quiet and pray this would just blow over....

Seriously blame the so called political leaders for this mess... for harping on it... for fanning it... and for NOT DOING ENOUGH to contain it NOW!Even sadder to note that AllUrban isn't even a Malaysian :P

[totoro]

well, for dear old Pak Lah, giving credit where it's due... at least our passports take 1 hour to renew. that's an amazing achievement! :)

[bugbear]

Some of you advocate that the herald simply withdraw their claim to the word Allah in order to gain peace but looking at it, i cannot help but notice that by doing so is to condone violence behaviour like arson and gangterism. If we give in now, it will further empower their ego that they can actually get away with crime.
This is the same as giving in to terrorist demand or ransom. We might be able to apeace one but can we forever be held ransom each time they get angry?
We must make a stand that enough is enough. We too have our right to worship our God in spirit and in truth.
Israel was subjected to the same bullying by their immediate neighbours from 1948 but refused to be intimidated and look where there are today. I don't know about you guys but i will never compromised over the things that concerns God and His deity. I will not deny His Lordship even at pain of death. You either is for God or against God. No middle ground.

[daws]

Sultan Selangor is wading into the controversy


Sultan Selangor mahu kerajaan negeri halang bukan Islam guna kalimah ‘Allah’ extracted from Malaysianinsider.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/bahasa/49244-sultan-selangor-mahu-kerajaan-negeri-halang-bukan-islam-guna-kalimah-allah

Aiyah looks like it's gonna be more complicated when the sultans and rajas come out with this edict

[ivanhow]

Sultan Selangor is wading into the controversy


Sultan Selangor mahu kerajaan negeri halang bukan Islam guna kalimah ‘Allah’ extracted from Malaysianinsider.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/bahasa/49244-sultan-selangor-mahu-kerajaan-negeri-halang-bukan-islam-guna-kalimah-allah

Aiyah looks like it's gonna be more complicated when the sultans and rajas come out with this edict

Now they want to poke their fingers in the religious pie. Since they are suppose to be the guardian of the islamic faith (in this country), they should have done so much earlier before the issue was handed to the courts to decide. Once it has landed on the courts, it should be due process of the law, until it has exhausted all the legal avenues before the King can come into the picture. Even then, that is usually done for pardon cases when the King is above the law in it's official duties, which is to pardon a wrong doing (doer).
But, in this case is there any wrong doing? Kinda messy :D I suppose... :confused: Now, if they were to overrule (override) the courts, then the question will be whether justice has been served, and whethere the rule of law is still relevant in this country... A lot of implications (and complications) after this. We had better run...

[firefox]

Our leaders have brought us shame, God save Malaysia, click on the link and read what is being said about us.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704842604574641654054959272.html

[silver_bird]

'Let them win here, drop 'Allah' claim'
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121703

What's your view?
Personally, I feel if we drop the claim. we'll set a dangerous precedent for bigger issue in future.

[Blue Jasmine]

Some of you advocate that the herald simply withdraw their claim to the word Allah in order to gain peace but looking at it, i cannot help but notice that by doing so is to condone violence behaviour like arson and gangterism. If we give in now, it will further empower their ego that they can actually get away with crime.
This is the same as giving in to terrorist demand or ransom. We might be able to apeace one but can we forever be held ransom each time they get angry?
We must make a stand that enough is enough. We too have our right to worship our God in spirit and in truth.
Israel was subjected to the same bullying by their immediate neighbours from 1948 but refused to be intimidated and look where there are today. I don't know about you guys but i will never compromised over the things that concerns God and His deity. I will not deny His Lordship even at pain of death. You either is for God or against God. No middle ground.


honestly i really dont understand the issue with this. My fellow muslim fren say that they shouldnt use their god name to resemble another god. And i think it hurt them when you say that their god has the same name as your god since for century they have claimed to be different from any other religion. My opinion is i dont think God will really care about the name that they used. I mean ...i just dont understand the point of this arguement. Since it has been the name that they have been calling their god why would the catholic wants to use the name for now?

[bugbear]

'Let them win here, drop 'Allah' claim'
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/121703

What's your view?
Personally, I feel if we drop the claim. we'll set a dangerous precedent for bigger issue in future.
I have posted my view above and I stand by it. To me this is what exactly what Jesus was telling His disciples that in the end time many will call Him Lord, Lord but He will not listen to these people because they DENY Him. Let this be a RED letter day for all Christian out there to either stand for Christ or deny Christ. Your call guys.

[bugbear]

honestly i really dont understand the issue with this. My fellow muslim fren say that they shouldnt use their god name to resemble another god. And i think it hurt them when you say that their god has the same name as your god since for century they have claimed to be different from any other religion. My opinion is i dont think God will really care about the name that they used. I mean ...i just dont understand the point of this arguement. Since it has been the name that they have been calling their god why would the catholic wants to use the name for now?
I hope your history is up to scratch Blue Jasmine. Christians have been calling God Allah even before Islam came on the scene. Christ was born circa 2 AD while Islam only came about circa 630 AD. Between 2 AD and 630 AD is a length of 628 years where Allah is the term Christian Arab used to call God. Now Islam has hijack the term Allah and in the process deny Christian the usage of this term. Is that fair? Below is an except from one of the reply in Malaysiakini.
"Malay-speaking Christians address God as 'Allah' as a mark of reverence, somewhat like how one would use 'Papa' or 'Mama' when one addresses one's parents. The first sentence of 'Al-Kitab', the Indonesian Bible used by Malay-speaking Christians, is as follows: "Pada mulanya Allah menciptakan langit dan bumi." ('In the beginning, Allah created the sky and the earth.')

Is there anything so disagreeable in this sentence? How would you feel if your neighbour suddenly tells you not to call your father 'Papa' or your mother 'Mama' because he is using the same words, the reason being that he might get confused as to who his parents are?"

:)

[daws]

bluejasmine,
do u understand this is a political issue rather than a religious issue? the u... politicians are fanning the waves by double speaking; reassuring one community on 1 hand and not rebuking the other community hotheads . All this to hold onto power. The point here is nowhere in the world is Allllah exclusive to one religion, not even in Saudi Arabia, except in Bolehland, So is the Islam practised in Saudi different from here?? U see iit's all about politics la!

[AllUrban]

You either is for God or against God. No middle ground.Just remember, that it is for God to decide whether you are for God or against God...

God decides, not man(kind)....or political leaders

The essence of GOD is the middle ground, middle way, middle path and the spirit of love & compromise.

When one comes to truly understanding and connecting to God then there will be no false dichotomy of "Christian vs. non-Christian," "Muslim vs. non-Muslim," "religious vs. non-religious," "with us or with the terrorists" etc.

Cheers, m

[AllUrban]

I hope your history is up to scratch Blue Jasmine. Christians have been calling God Allah even before Islam came on the scene. Christ was born circa 2 AD while Islam only came about circa 630 AD. Between 2 AD and 630 AD is a length of 628 years where Allah is the term Christian Arab used to call God. Now Islam has hijack the term Allah and in the process deny Christian the usage of this term. Is that fair? Below is an except from one of the reply in Malaysiakini.
"Malay-speaking Christians address God as 'Allah' as a mark of reverence, somewhat like how one would use 'Papa' or 'Mama' when one addresses one's parents. The first sentence of 'Al-Kitab', the Indonesian Bible used by Malay-speaking Christians, is as follows: "Pada mulanya Allah menciptakan langit dan bumi." ('In the beginning, Allah created the sky and the earth.')

Is there anything so disagreeable in this sentence? How would you feel if your neighbour suddenly tells you not to call your father 'Papa' or your mother 'Mama' because he is using the same words, the reason being that he might get confused as to who his parents are?"

:)In those 628 years the Christian faith also changed numerous times, from a politically persecuted faith that worshipped a single 'Allah' to the politically supported faith that emphasized and supported the worship of Allah as a 'trinity' with Jesus the Christ representing the temporal essence of God.

As for Islam 'hijacking' the name Allah, I'm surprised to see you writing that. Islam has not hijacked the name "Allah" and has not denied Christians and others the right to use "Allah"

Ancient literature & history shows that the name "Allah" and variations found in all faiths show that it is the oldest name given to what we perceive to be God.

Besides, I thought that one of your arguments was that all of the faithful have the right to call God by the name that God prefers. Isnt this what you were saying just a few days ago? So how can you turn about and say that Islam hijacked the name "Allah"? Do you realize that you are now presenting the mirror-image of the argument that the UMNO people are using?

This is not a "Christian vs." or "Islam vs." debate.

Bugbear, I do not deny that certain parties in UMNO are trying to take control of the use of the use of Allah but please do not confuse UMNO with Islam. They are not one and the same despite what people may want. UMNO is a political party and their goals were, are and always will be political ones.

Cheers, m

[Blue Jasmine]

oic...sorry to ask that ....since different people have different sets of opinion. I do not know what is wrong or what is right...all i know that if we continue to argue like this maybe this will lead to some sort of war and maybe mass killing which i dont want to see happen in this peaceful country. Surely is not right but why are we letting this thing happen? Why we allow hatred to consume one and another and then we do things which we dont even intend too. I am sure those people that throw those bomb dont mean ...maybe they are just young and lack guidance. I really dont know...blame me if im wrong i just dont want to see anyone die...especially childrens in churches and etc.

[AllUrban]

oic...sorry to ask that ....since different people have different sets of opinion. I do not know what is wrong or what is right...all i know that if we continue to argue like this maybe this will lead to some sort of war and maybe mass killing which i dont want to see happen in this peaceful country. Surely is not right but why are we letting this thing happen? Why we allow hatred to consume one and another and then we do things which we dont even intend too. I am sure those people that throw those bomb dont mean ...maybe they are just young and lack guidance. I really dont know...blame me if im wrong i just dont want to see anyone die...especially childrens in churches and etc.Don't ever be sorry for asking or trying to seek connection with God, BlueJasmine.

The issue is when people seek to deny that connection in others, or present the idea that there is only one way to connect to God.

People who truly understand and appreciate and connect to the nature & essence of God do not fall into petty arguments and politics because they know that God is first and foremost, the essence of love & peace & compromise.

Those who only see violence in God do not truly understand God and never will...no matter what religion they claim to follow. Those who present a dichotomy of "us vs. them" (whatever the variation) do not really understand God either.

Sorry, I dont mean to preach or judge. I just dont want people to be angry or sad when there is so much potential with a little bit of love.

Cheers, m

[kwchang]

...I do not know what is wrong or what is right...all i know that if we continue to argue like this maybe this will lead to some sort of war and maybe mass killing...
As far as I can see, this Forum is allowing for a civil discussion of opinions. So long as it does not go racist or over-zealous in the religious area, it is OK.

I have yet to see an argument. Please let me know if you see one and I will take action in the Forum. A civil discussion is OK. The real trouble makers out there do not discuss, they just act. It is therefore the authorities' job to look after the peace out on the streets.

However, I do see the same comments everyday ... aren't some of you tired saying and reading the same thing everyday? I do get dizzy with all the going around in circles

[Nick Chia]

Bugbear, I am surprised that you are now politically motivated to pursue your stand. Be strong in your faith and you will reap the harvest where no man can dream. By engaging in will only result in your heart discontent but what is more important is your faith. I believe that every christians will pray for the minority misunderstood muslims to be guided by the right path. No christians will seek to retaliate as it is likened to do what a terrorist wants you to do.

I am glad that whosoever fan this issue realised that it is not in the interest of majority of malaysians and especially Malaysia as a country. Godwilling ,we should be rational and leave this to pass on. Time will heal and there is no winners or losers.. As it is spoken " please forgive them as they do not know what are they doing " and it shall be done. God Bless to all.

[daws]

the throwers cud just be misguided youths, who probably are clueless to the whole issue and regarded Christians as the 'enemy' due to the fact that the Catholics won the right to use the term Allah, if u were to ask them to explain they'll probably give u the blank look!
this is probably caused by the govt policy indoctrinating one race as suprior and all others as pendatang, hurry up GE 13 we need a change in govt!

[bugbear]

In those 628 years the Christian faith also changed numerous times, from a politically persecuted faith that worshipped a single 'Allah' to the politically supported faith that emphasized and supported the worship of Allah as a 'trinity' with Jesus the Christ representing the temporal essence of God.

As for Islam 'hijacking' the name Allah, I'm surprised to see you writing that. Islam has not hijacked the name "Allah" and has not denied Christians and others the right to use "Allah"

Ancient literature & history shows that the name "Allah" and variations found in all faiths show that it is the oldest name given to what we perceive to be God.

Besides, I thought that one of your arguments was that all of the faithful have the right to call God by the name that God prefers. Isnt this what you were saying just a few days ago? So how can you turn about and say that Islam hijacked the name "Allah"? Do you realize that you are now presenting the mirror-image of the argument that the UMNO people are using?

This is not a "Christian vs." or "Islam vs." debate.

Bugbear, I do not deny that certain parties in UMNO are trying to take control of the use of the use of Allah but please do not confuse UMNO with Islam. They are not one and the same despite what people may want. UMNO is a political party and their goals were, are and always will be political ones.

Cheers, m
I get your drift M. I am not even going to argue with you about the hijacking thingy...I wonder what do you call all this exclusivity thingy concerning the A word? You can say it is UMNO and not the Islam that wants it but the very act of wanting exclusivity of the A word in itself reek of hijacking isn't it? Think about it. It is not the Christian who is asking for exclusivity here if I may add.

[bugbear]

The issue is when people seek to deny that connection in others, or present the idea that there is only one way to connect to God.


Cheers, m
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one come unto my Father except through me." John 14:6

I respect your middle way leaning m. As for me, this is my guiding principle in life. :)

[bugbear]

Bugbear, I am surprised that you are now politically motivated to pursue your stand. Be strong in your faith and you will reap the harvest where no man can dream. By engaging in will only result in your heart discontent but what is more important is your faith. I believe that every christians will pray for the minority misunderstood muslims to be guided by the right path. No christians will seek to retaliate as it is likened to do what a terrorist wants you to do.

I am glad that whosoever fan this issue realised that it is not in the interest of majority of malaysians and especially Malaysia as a country. Godwilling ,we should be rational and leave this to pass on. Time will heal and there is no winners or losers.. As it is spoken " please forgive them as they do not know what are they doing " and it shall be done. God Bless to all.
No Nick. I am not doing this stand to be political. Far from it. I did it because I will not deny God His due glory and His deity. I will not go around bombing others or killing others to get my massage through. We are now living in the end time. Many Christian will have to get out of their comfort zone and start to live by their calling. I must admit that Christian as a whole have been too accommodating and complacent with regards to God's ultimate calling. If you think the above message if too extreme then you really do not know your God well enough.

[silver_bird]

Another court battle on Mac 15, 2010
Confiscating eight compact discs of Christian religious teachings containing the word “Allah”.
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49309-another-allah-court-battle-looms

[bugbear]

Another court battle on Mac 15, 2010
Confiscating eight compact discs of Christian religious teachings containing the word “Allah”.
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49309-another-allah-court-battle-looms
This is what I am afraid about if we were to give in now. There will be no end. Do you realise that if the government win their appeal what the implication will be? Let me count them.

1. Christian in Sabah and Sarawak will automatically be label as felons as they are all in possession of illegal materials. ie Alkitab, reading materials, CDs, tapes etc.

2. Non-Malays can no longer greet their Malay friends with Assalamualaikum or Alhamdulilah.

3. Our former PM's name will now be call as Tun Abdu**** Badawi as we are now forbidden to utter the A word.

4. Non-Malays cannot sing the Selangor anthem as it contain the A word.

[chewie]

hmm..i guess this only happen in Malaysia... My friend recent wedding in Indonesia was held in a church. there is a big banner mentioned 'Kemuliaan Allah'

if you need to see the pic, please do pm me and i will email it to you...

[bslee]

if you need to see the pic, please do pm me and i will email it to you...

Thats one of never ending and dispute here in this land. What may occur in other lands, do NOT neccessarily apply or accepted here. Freedom in this land is not exactly full freedom where many policies reduce much freedom.

[jimmyay]

Thats one of never ending and dispute here in this land. What may occur in other lands, do NOT neccessarily apply or accepted here. Freedom in this land is not exactly full freedom where many policies reduce much freedom.

Freedom? Justice? Equality? It mean nothing in Malaysia anymore. As long it benefit the politician, then it is 1Malaysia.

[silver_bird]

SABAH & SARAWAK SAYS : "DON'T TELL US HOW TO PRAY !!! "
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49330-dont-tell-us-how-to-pray-borneo-states-say-

[ivanhow]

Bugbear, I am surprised that you are now politically motivated to pursue your stand. Be strong in your faith and you will reap the harvest where no man can dream. By engaging in will only result in your heart discontent but what is more important is your faith. I believe that every christians will pray for the minority misunderstood muslims to be guided by the right path. No christians will seek to retaliate as it is likened to do what a terrorist wants you to do.

I am glad that whosoever fan this issue realised that it is not in the interest of majority of malaysians and especially Malaysia as a country. Godwilling ,we should be rational and leave this to pass on. Time will heal and there is no winners or losers.. As it is spoken " please forgive them as they do not know what are they doing " and it shall be done. God Bless to all.

I thought this was a court ruling, and started as a legal issue, and some ppl try to turn it into a political one by invoking (stoking) emotional elements. It should be resolved in the courts of law. Few questions need answers:

1. Where is the origin of the A-word as far as ownership is concerned?
2. Is the A word an exclusive word with so-called "copyrights" or a license to use kind of property owned by a group or some individual or a corporation with legal rights?

Only if these can be established can we then talk about whether there is a violation of that right, isn't it?

If it is a language used to refer to an imaginary object, then, the word is only meaningful to it's members who understand it the way they do (as a group). Those who are not members (of that group) may understand it differently if they chose to understand it differently. To impose their understanding to the other group is interference - isn't it?

Tolerance is about allowing others to think differently, and still not impose upon them one's thinking - correct me if this is incorrect.

So, as far as religions tolerance is concern, there should be no interference.

Furthermore, the understanding is that the publication was only for members of the same faith, not meant for others. So, tell me why there is so much of imposition, restriction and all these (interference)? It just doesn't make sense to a layman who isn't even involved in the arguments (let alone the aggrieved party).

[totoro]

If the use of the A word is not against any sort of law, then how is it possible for anyone to prevent its use?

But then again we have the censorship board and regulations on published materials, right? How does these things work actually? Curious to know...

[JollyRoger]

Sultan Selangor is wading into the controversy


Sultan Selangor mahu kerajaan negeri halang bukan Islam guna kalimah ‘Allah’ extracted from Malaysianinsider.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/bahasa/49244-sultan-selangor-mahu-kerajaan-negeri-halang-bukan-islam-guna-kalimah-allah

Aiyah looks like it's gonna be more complicated when the sultans and rajas come out with this edict

This sure raise some interesting questions.

Does this mean
- non muslims are not allowed to sing Selangor state anthem.

- Christians from Sarawak/Sabah residing in Selangor have to leave the state
to attend church.

[terisunny]

4. Non-Malays cannot sing the Selangor anthem as it contain the A word.
Same goes for Johorean non-Ms as the state anthem STARTS with the A word!

[totoro]

surely speaking it out is different from printing copies for distribution?

I just realized our national anthem pronounces a prayer to God, so if God is a universal word then those singing it could be praying to different Gods? And atheists would sing in vain. But the wonderful thing about Malaysia is that nobody ever made an issue out of it since 1957.


Negaraku, tanah tumpahnya darahku,
Rakyat hidup, bersatu dan maju,
Rahmat bahagia, Tuhan kurniakan,
Raja kita, selamat bertakhta.

My country, the land where my blood is shed,
The people live united and progressive,
Blessings of happiness, may God grant,
May our King reign in peace.

[silver_bird]

Latest casualty - A Sikh temple in Sentul, KL
http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/49379-stones-hurled-at-sentul-sikh-temple-

[Jeyanthy]

If we could just educate the public via the newspapers and other communication methods about their ignorance, we may solve the issue we have over the issue on the usage of the word "Allah".

Here are the facts:
1. "Allah" is a word with origins which predates advent of Islam or Christianity. In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.

2. "Allah" is a word used by Jews, Sikhs, Christians, Hindus and Islam

3. Munshi Abdullah (the father of modern Malay literature) who brokered the land for the first Christian church in Malacca and was the person who first translated the Bible into Malay in 1852. There was no stampede of Malays converting into Christianity then.

4. There is no specific verse in the Quran which prohibited the use of 'Allah' by non-Muslims.

5. Islam, Christians are people of the book too and essentially worshipped the same God as Muslims.

6. There is no mention of any decisions or discussions on this matter within the thousand year or so year old Muslim teachings and Islamic texts, why create this unrest now?

7. Anybody that is creating much noise over the issue must be 'extraordinary', implying that they seemed to be more knowledgeable than generations of Islamic scholars. Isn't this all a part of a political move?

8. Malaysia is the only Muslim country in the world which has a problem with this. Indonesia (The biggest Islamic country that does not seem to have a problem with Christians are using the word 'Allah')

9. Only a small percentage of Muslims in Malaysia seem to mind its usage among other religions. These extremists simply need to be "educated". The "Katak bawah tempurong" attitude need to be washed out. Most Muslims are broad minded.

10. Lastly why is "My God" not "Your God"? Shouldn't we all be happy that we are praying to the same God whose name we all agree on, finally.

[Jey]

All these are obvious facts in the public knowledge and nothing new. So its not necessary to open thread after thread on the Allah issue. The more its talked about in the public the more controversial it becomes. This is supposed to be a non-issue for hundreds of years but so suddenly it became an explosive one. Why?

I think its very obvious. See here http://www.malaysianmirror.com/homedetail/45-home/26079-the-malaysian-mirrors-stand-on-the-allah-issue-

I take the same stand as the Malaysian Mirror on this issue. I think MM is succinct! Lets just drop this from public debate.

[Jey]

...ooops, Chang that was quick! :eek: :D

[bugbear]

If we could just educate the public via the newspapers and other communication methods about their ignorance, we may solve the issue we have over the issue on the usage of the word "Allah".

Here are the facts:
1. "Allah" is a word with origins which predates advent of Islam or Christianity. In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.

2. "Allah" is a word used by Jews, Sikhs, Christians, Hindus and Islam

3. Munshi Abdullah (the father of modern Malay literature) who brokered the land for the first Christian church in Malacca and was the person who first translated the Bible into Malay in 1852. There was no stampede of Malays converting into Christianity then.

4. There is no specific verse in the Quran which prohibited the use of 'Allah' by non-Muslims.

5. Islam, Christians are people of the book too and essentially worshipped the same God as Muslims.

6. There is no mention of any decisions or discussions on this matter within the thousand year or so year old Muslim teachings and Islamic texts, why create this unrest now?

7. Anybody that is creating much noise over the issue must be 'extraordinary', implying that they seemed to be more knowledgeable than generations of Islamic scholars. Isn't this all a part of a political move?

8. Malaysia is the only Muslim country in the world which has a problem with this. Indonesia (The biggest Islamic country that does not seem to have a problem with Christians are using the word 'Allah')

9. Only a small percentage of Muslims in Malaysia seem to mind its usage among other religions. These extremists simply need to be "educated". The "Katak bawah tempurong" attitude need to be washed out. Most Muslims are broad minded.

10. Lastly why is "My God" not "Your God"? Shouldn't we all be happy that we are praying to the same God whose name we all agree on, finally.
Aiyoyo Jeyanthy, any sane person on the ground know the above FACT except the government of the day. Do you think they will follow your advice? Not a fat chance.

[AllUrban]

Negaraku, tanah tumpahnya darahku,
Rakyat hidup, bersatu dan maju,
Rahmat bahagia, Tuhan kurniakan,
Raja kita, selamat bertakhta.

My country, the land where my blood is shed,
The people live united and progressive,
Blessings of happiness, may God grant,
May our King reign in peace. He could...if we would stop and think about line 2 a little bit more often.

Cheers, m

[silver_bird]

In Johore, St Elizabeth Catholic church in Kota Kecil was splashed with red paint this morning.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/14/nation/20100114124758&sec=nation

Which state next ?