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Mrs A Tham
19-12-2008, 01:25 AM
A friend applied to a Malaysian Co recruitment advertisement stating "C & S Project Manager...permanent pos...state expected salary.....Willing to travel Overseas". When at interview, it seems the co urgently required him to start work immediately at the Shah Alam office. Under the impression of locally employed but Overseas travelling needed, my friend stated down his local expected salary and also the need of Overseas Travelling and accomodation allowances requirements. The company agreed to his request and immediately prepared an appt letter and had my friend signed on it and the next day he resigned and joined this new co. After 1 week, his co request for his travelling docs to prepare his working permit and visa to Thailand and a few days after, when everything was ready, he was asked to be posted to Thailand for 6 months and later to China for 1 year....and all with the local salary he had requested together with a fully paid accomodation and nothing more. Well, my friend felt cheated as at first he was required by the company to travel (expecting short periods of 1 month or so) but now he was told that his position was actually an Overseas Posting. He felt cheated as in the first place if he were to know its an Overseas Posting, he would request for an Ex-pat Construction Benefits incl a higher salary scale. Do you think if he were to terminate his emloyment, can he request for some compensation now that he had resigned and would be jobless. The newspaper Adv stating "willing to travel overseas" but the actual fact is "Overseas Postings" had created such confusion as if to lure applicants in paying a lower salary than what it should be. Any recommendation what he can do?

Sentinel
19-12-2008, 01:30 AM
A friend applied to a Malaysian Co recruitment advertisement stating "C & S Project Manager...permanent pos...state expected salary.....Willing to travel Overseas". When at interview, it seems the co urgently required him to start work immediately at the Shah Alam office. Under the impression of locally employed but Overseas travelling needed, my friend stated down his local expected salary and also the need of Overseas Travelling and accomodation allowances requirements. The company agreed to his request and immediately prepared an appt letter and had my friend signed on it and the next day he resigned and joined this new co. After 1 week, his co request for his travelling docs to prepare his working permit and visa to Thailand and a few days after, when everything was ready, he was asked to be posted to Thailand for 6 months and later to China for 1 year....and all with the local salary he had requested together with a fully paid accomodation and nothing more. Well, my friend felt cheated as at first he was required by the company to travel (expecting short periods of 1 month or so) but now he was told that his position was actually an Overseas Posting. He felt cheated as in the first place if he were to know its an Overseas Posting, he would request for an Ex-pat Construction Benefits incl a higher salary scale. Do you think if he were to terminate his emloyment, can he request for some compensation now that he had resigned and would be jobless. The newspaper Adv stating "willing to travel overseas" but the actual fact is "Overseas Postings" had created such confusion as if to lure applicants in paying a lower salary than what it should be. Any recommendation what he can do?

I think the company was open about it... read your own posting above which I highlighted in bold. It was stated very clearly PERMANENT POSTING...willing to travel means willing to be posted overseas, I think your friend was the one who has misunderstood.

I also don't think the company was dishonest and was luring people to be posted overseas by offering a lower salary. Hey, we are not talking low-ranked workers here, we are talking engineers here i.e. PROFESSIONALS! How can anyone do this to engineers and succeed?

If I know companies, it is better for your friend to just sit down and discuss with his employer. He is an engineer and he is a professional and not a clerk or a production line worker, I am sure he is matured enough to have an objective discussion with his superior/s. Tell them he has mad made a mistake and he wants a higher pay and I am sure the management is matured enough to do so. C'mon, no one wants to hire an engineer and lose him the next week too...

Just explain to the employer that he wants and need to be paid at least an overseas allowance and accommodation and I am sure the employer can agree. Or better still, ask for an expat package. If the employer refuses, than there is nothing your friend can do except to resign... he cannot file under Section 20(1) for constructive dismissal because he has just started work... He can seek legal recourse via a civil suit against the employer for misrepresentation but how much compensation can he get being such a newbie on the job? The legal fees would make it all not worth it.

blurrman
19-12-2008, 10:15 AM
in this dim market, to be posted in oversea is really a good experience, look for building up the resume, not the immediate benefit.

reasonable oversea allowances and accommodation should be very good.

blurrman
19-12-2008, 11:11 AM
oh by the way Mrs Tham, can you pls do not include the [B] tag in your title? because the bold will not show up in the title even if you put up the [B] tag. this tag will only show bold in the text of a post. thanks

ESLord
19-12-2008, 12:24 PM
Propably your fren was in such a hurry- to accept the job immediately with the appointment letter.

There should be a seperate document stating the location, remuneration, working hours, public holidays etc. All benefit- must be documented if you expect it. Especially on oversea posting-they need to state if accomodation provided, special allowances, cost for relocation, how many time per year allowed to travel back home, with ticket provided etc.

It is a lot more than the appointment letter.

Sentinel
19-12-2008, 03:07 PM
The best way out of this situation is "discussion" because he is an engineer and a professional, the employer will definitely lend a sympathetic ear.

Like I said, the employer also knows his own options, if he has an unhappy employee at hand, he might lose him too. No employer wants to hire an engineer for a couple of weeks and lose him just like that.

Best thing is still to have a discussion. The word is NEGOTIATE (visit www.negotiate.org or www.perkasalloyd.com for more on negotiation & influencing skills).

Mrs A Tham
20-12-2008, 11:24 AM
I think the company was open about it... read your own posting above which I highlighted in bold. It was stated very clearly PERMANENT POSTING....

I am so sorry I didn't actually type out in full...it actually reads Permanent Position

Mrs A Tham
20-12-2008, 12:24 PM
The best way out of this situation is "discussion"....

Yup I agree with you.....its just that my friend did tell his employer about the prob. Employer ask him to sign the appt letter first and in a few days later the company will have the other copies with all the overseas packages for him. So at the appt letter was stated the local expected salary and all other local construction benefit. Co ask my friend to expedit his resignation with existing Co as they need him urgently. So with the Appt Letter he resigned thinking he will gain and can be exposed to Overseas experience.

After some days together with the visa and working permit docs., the new co gave him the other copies of the appt letter and stated the Overseas allowance is an extra RM1000 plus accomodation package at a company's 1 room apt. with medical benefits and a twice yearly fully paid return flight to visit home (but at 5 days for each visit)...
My friend told the Employer he was expecting what he had mentioned earlier at the interview which is : full Insurance and Medical benefits, expat package eg. fully paid accomodation with web facilities, company expense transportation while working overseas, meal allowance and at least an Overseas allowance of RM 3,000 for SEA postings and for countries with USD, EURO, LBS and YEN currencies, it would have to follow with reasonable living stds accordingly. They said they will put the Overseas offers in a separate copy later when there is travelling needed. They sure did but not to what my friend had requested.
The answer he got back from the employer was, every co has their own set of Expat benefits and as for now they cannot comply.. They can only give him an Overseas allowance of RM1000 with accomodation and med benefit.
What a blow...that's why he felt cheated as when compares to my hubby's overseas postings under a 2 year contractual basis to Suzhou few years back, hubby was paid USD3000 plus Expat pkg of accomodation with web facilities, medical, insurance, transport benefits, meal allowance, clothing expenses due to winter season, and a twice yearly transferable (for immediate family) air ticket home for 10 days each.
Even to another friend (Danny) who's posted to Jakarta 2 years ago, he was getting MYR10K plus RM3K Overseas allowance and all the Expat benefits my hubby got before. A few other friends also holding Overseas position as well, all getting approx same kinda benefits and Expat treatment....to me I guess if its an Overseas posting, it should more or less be around the norm, right??
He is thinking of resigning but its kinda hard for him to look for jobs since posted overseas....can't attend local interviews lor and he can't afford to jobless as his family needs his support and he had loads of commitment like instlmt for house, car, kids edu, home expenses......
well, I sure felt the company is quite unfair. BTW who would accept an Overseas posting with just additional RM1000 allowance? Most prob he had to use alot of his local salary too as living standard in Shenzhen (where he is posted) is rather high and RM1000 I think is not sufficient.
Hubby was there before and he told me a cup of black coffee cost him nearly MYR4 compares to only MYR1.80 - 2 at Mamak Cafe in Subang....and Wantan Mee too is like MYR7...

Mrs A Tham
20-12-2008, 03:23 PM
in this dim market, to be posted in oversea is really a good experience, look for building up the resume, not the immediate benefit.

reasonable oversea allowances and accommodation should be very good.

Yup...if the Overseas Allowances and Packages are reasonable.

Also how can I get rid of the [B] tag now???


Propably your fren was in such a hurry...

I guess so too as I know from his wife, since all expenses took a hike due to price increase in almost everything now, he had been trying to look for a better paid position esp with Overseas Postings seeing alot of his friends with Overseas Allowances to look into welfare there and full local salary for the family (can save too on the extras) and at the meantime he also wanted to experience and be exposed to Overseas postings. With sacrifice being away from the family for 2-3 years but with additional savings in the bank for rainy days. If can get a good offer, ofcoz the savings accumulated in 2-3 years with Overseas postings is far way better than you can do within double the time frame given locally...and when return, most of the time with Overseas Exposures, one can upgrade the salary too eventhough holding same position.

But I know of some pros and cons of employment like when hubby went for an Interview last year for a HCMinh City, Vietnam posting, everything went on well with family postings and all and when the appt letter was signed, after a few days the other set of docs came in stating he had to start with 1 year in Bahrain first as the company has urgent projects there needed handover and after that he can proceed to Vietnam. Hubby went back to nego on a higher Overseas Allowance since the living standard there is extremely :eek: !! knowing a 1 room apt is most likely RM2,500 +- and food is generally not much different than Dubai, a normal person based on normal living standards would need approx RM10K to survive there as Bahrain currency is approx 9 times+ of the ringgit...unless all is covered eg. house and utilities, car and fuel, medical and insurance, meal allowance, airfare and etc...then maybe an allowance of MYR5000 is acceptable (well 5000 here is like 460+ there lah)..don't forget laundry is $$ there and so is magazines and cinema/leisure.
New Co don't agree with the request, and hubby terminate the employment due to non appropriate offer as he did not sign in for Middle East Posting...we were lucky at that point as hubby still not resign yet from Old Co.

Sometimes working Overseas has its pros and cons. Hubby was away during son was nearing 1yrs and I was all alone with baby here. It was truely a sacrifice and both of us not able to stand being so far apart and when son starts to talk to daddy on the webcam at 1 1/2yrs old, he always cries when it is being turn off. Hubby changed his Mas tickets to Air Asia so can come back more often like 3 months once and 5 days each instead of 10days/6 months. Son cries and huge tantrum when daddy going off in taxi and we were sore for nearly 2 weeks then again expecting daddy again in another 2 months+. That is when hubby decides to come home for good after contract finishes even though he was offered another 2 years. Money is good but the separation is pretty hard to handle... :(

tupai
20-12-2008, 08:15 PM
lets me just enlighten those blur sotongs who are desperate for 'overseas' (mainly Asia) postings.

Malaysian professionals and experienced managers in many fields are being hunted/poached left and right for these 2 (well-known amgst head hunters) reasons:
1. Many are good/hardworking/committed etc (positive attributes) plus a bit blur sotong (lack of nego savvy)
2. Many Malaysians are happy to be paid peanuts. Malaysians management level posted overseas are the cheapest of the lot of expats...if they even qualified to be called expats lah

Many will be coming back next years due to depressed econ in Asia...Its all written in the sky...plus a an Asia-Pac kwailoh CEO of a MNC told me lah :p
Yang Blur sotong latotupai :o

Sentinel
20-12-2008, 09:06 PM
Mrs Tham, tell your friend the best way out is for a respectful discussion for a win-win situation, this is not the time for winner-take-all confrontation, not in this economic times. I was an expat for 9 years in Brunei, Singapore and Shanghai... there are many people (and Yang Amat Bijak TUPAI said it correctly too...) waiting to take his place too. Sorry to say, engineers and lawyers not not very laku like the days of our forefathers.... now those with CFP at the back ie Certified Financial Planners (whatever they do nobody knows...) are worth much more!

orchipalar
20-12-2008, 11:16 PM
Err buddy Mrs. Tham...perhaps you know the aged old Cantonese saying...
"ride on a bull to look for a horse..." or something like that...

Tell it to your "friend"...n make him understand it... :D

Oh btw...do remind him also that...Orchi...with years of
experience...might soon join the line of unemployed engineers...

Mrs A Tham
21-12-2008, 10:02 AM
Yup, all of you have a good point and that's what my hubby says too. There are many Overseas postings but one have to really understand the country and all the living expenses first before blindly accepting the job offer and later find out the salary they are being paid can't even make up to what they need to spend there.

I told my friend that the company is being unfair alright to the Overseas Offer but also in the first place, he made a mistake too for accepting the position before the other set of doc are out. What is the problem since they needed him urgently, another day of waiting is not a problem making sure all offer are being confirmed in B&W before one resigns. Getting the company to put everything in paper first is not too much to ask for and if their HR can't do it within a day, then they are very incompetent as these terms and condition should be highlighted before the recruitment advertisement is being placed.

For his case he also show he HARAP for the job, so should expect lah if the employer is sly sure make good use of the situation lah especially when the applicant can resign in such a hurry to join the new co.
There are many good employers but also alot of unscrupulous ones.

Well, my bro-inlaw for instance had recently accepted a Dubai offer of RM20K monthly with all expenses paid (home, food and airfare) and already flew there 1st December. Now the wife is a little worry as the Employer is a Dubai Reg Co and all salary is release in Dubai in Dilham. They checked with the banks to get the money transferred over here may result in them loosing nearly 13-15% everytime based on currency exchanged and bank's fee... it seems they will charge a certain amount on every 1000 transaction. That also happens to RMB as the local banks here do not accept direct conversion so the RMB had to be converted to USD and then from USD to MYR and by doing so one can loose out more!

As the saying goes, its better to be late than never and safe than sorry!

joker2107
21-12-2008, 11:35 AM
mrs tham, no thanks for being a third party "complainant" who may not have pertinent details such as exact wordings in letter of offer. i think this thread has great value not for the advice which may come from forumers but for the "warnings" in respect of overseas postings. i must say that the few discussions posted so far have alot of information which everyone hoping to work overseas ought to know. thanks, buddies.

on another note, the issue regarding repatriation of funds to msia. yes, its very very true -there's a massive cost for conversion of foreign currencies to msia. this is, in my opinion, a disgusting failure of bnm and world govts - because these charges are for the benefit of private hands. chettiar money changers do it for a pinch of salt, so to say, if they do charge anything at all - and they ahve better rates too. i'm not sure if there's any benefit of bringing back hard earned money by way of traveller's cheques to be cashed locally. or how about using singapore or a foreign currency account there? anybody got experience? i'm sure there's got to be some way to beat the system, especially when it comes to megabucks. what if you deposit foreign currency into your local credit card account at an overseas agency? what conversion penalty if any incurred? cash withdrawal through credit card is immediate and probably cheaper than straight forward snail mail forex.

Sentinel
21-12-2008, 01:27 PM
Yup, all of you have a good point and that's what my hubby says too. There are many Overseas postings but one have to really understand the country and all the living expenses first before blindly accepting the job offer and later find out the salary they are being paid can't even make up to what they need to spend there.

I told my friend that the company is being unfair alright to the Overseas Offer but also in the first place, he made a mistake too for accepting the position before the other set of doc are out. What is the problem since they needed him urgently, another day of waiting is not a problem making sure all offer are being confirmed in B&W before one resigns. Getting the company to put everything in paper first is not too much to ask for and if their HR can't do it within a day, then they are very incompetent as these terms and condition should be highlighted before the recruitment advertisement is being placed.

For his case he also show he HARAP for the job, so should expect lah if the employer is sly sure make good use of the situation lah especially when the applicant can resign in such a hurry to join the new co.
There are many good employers but also alot of unscrupulous ones.

Well, my bro-inlaw for instance had recently accepted a Dubai offer of RM20K monthly with all expenses paid (home, food and airfare) and already flew there 1st December. Now the wife is a little worry as the Employer is a Dubai Reg Co and all salary is release in Dubai in Dilham. They checked with the banks to get the money transferred over here may result in them loosing nearly 13-15% everytime based on currency exchanged and bank's fee... it seems they will charge a certain amount on every 1000 transaction. That also happens to RMB as the local banks here do not accept direct conversion so the RMB had to be converted to USD and then from USD to MYR and by doing so one can loose out more!

As the saying goes, its better to be late than never and safe than sorry!

Don't worry about the transfer of funds from Dubai to Malaysia and losing the 10-15% Mrs Tham. There is always a friendly Malaysian somewhere who will assist you to do the transfer without a loss of more than 1-2% trust me. I have been away 9 years in Brunei, Singapore and the last posting in Shanghai was most challenging. After a while, your brother-in-law will find a way of getting his money back into Malaysia, trust me. More importantly, get the money in his hands first ha ha!

tupai
21-12-2008, 02:38 PM
well put Sentinel...actually, there are many friendly malaysians who can transfer your godzillion$ for 1-2% and if u have the 'legally wrong' connections, even at 0.5% :D :D

ayah...cash withdrawal via CC carries a 3% fin charges lah...then u also ose in forex...actually u can open an external account in hkong/caymen island and also a few other fin centers lah...and make your cash transfer from there...

I charge 0.5-10% for consultancy fee...and expense liek banana leaf rice with fried sotong, kari kepala ikan and a big bowl of deep fried bitter gourd. :D
I pay for my own ais limau. :D :D

Yang Boleh forex latotupai

p/s A wise Expat sage once told me this:
"Only sell yourself cheap when you have no other choice..else, sell yourself at a premium* bcos many bottomline driven MNCs will SUCK you dry at a fraction of the truly Expat package*."

*u ever hard of 'hardship' allowance? :D :D

kkearthling
22-12-2008, 03:10 AM
Banks in Dubai that I am aware of charge the usual TT fees, around RM50 per transfer (to banks in Malaysia, Singapore, etc). The current exchange rate is about AED1 = RM0.94. How did you lose 13-15% if you transfer from Dubai to Malaysia? Perhaps it is time you change your bank.

joker2107
22-12-2008, 03:37 AM
there are many friendly malaysians who can transfer your godzillion$ for 1-2% and if u have the 'legally wrong' connections,

i think its the "illegally right" connections which work.

ps - the smilies and text formatting aint working for now???