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View Full Version : Ungku Aziz urges changes to Bahasa Malaysia system



Raikonen
28-07-2008, 08:43 PM
"The government urged to make changes to the Bahasa Malaysia teaching and learning system ...."

http://themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysian-news/34-malaysian-news/2316-ungku-aziz-calls-for-changes-to-bahasa-malaysia-system

"Everyone needs to master two languages. Bahasa Malaysia is important to create unity while English is used to develop the country's economy,"

Education Department director-general Datuk Alimuddin Mohd Dom quoted in the era of globalisation, the people should have good command of Bahasa Malaysia to unite the society via communication while English is important in international economics and politics. "

In era of globalisation, Bahasa Malaysia vital?? Mandarin more like it.....with China emerging as a superpower for the next century.... :D Apalah....

chewie
28-07-2008, 09:10 PM
this might be out of the topic.... if they think that everything need to be in Bahasa Malaysia, then please do change UMNO into Bahasa Malaysia.

Guys, UMNO is an English word which stands for United Malayan National Organisation..

Please do correct me if I am wrong..

bobkee
28-07-2008, 10:51 PM
Personally I'd agree with Ungku Aziz. Bahasa Malaysia is a necessary skill that is required to foster national unity. I must admit though that to have an organisation that goes around with an English acronym pushing for Malay nationalism does seem quite hypocritical.

Raikonen
28-07-2008, 11:00 PM
I would rather have English as the official language. Poor command of this language have cost Msia dear.

bobkee
28-07-2008, 11:06 PM
Well, for better or for worst, BM as the official and national language is a fait accompli and whether we like it or not, more people in this country are literate in BM than they are in English. So rather than reacting to it, why don't we try finding a pro-active response to this and try to push for at least the improvement of the standards of English without compromising the standards of the national language?

Personally, I try to be multi lingual at home, speaking both English and Malay as well as 3 different Chinese dialects, including Mandarin. Pretty tough but I reckon, if my elders managed to do it for me and my sibs when we were kids, we could at least try to emulate it with our own kids. :)

isarahim
29-07-2008, 09:20 AM
I think English should be raised to the same level as BM. Both should be national languages.

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 09:40 AM
I would allow my kids to speak in English and Mandarin only...

Nowiam
29-07-2008, 09:54 AM
I would allow my kids to speak in English and Mandarin only...

!!! aiiyooooo

bobkee
29-07-2008, 11:41 AM
I would allow my kids to speak in English and Mandarin only...Wouldn't that put them in a handicap when it comes to communicating with people?

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 11:48 AM
Wouldn't that put them in a handicap when it comes to communicating with people?

Why would it be? These two are widely spoken languages everywhere...Must know dialects too...plus classes in Spanish would be a bonus.

bslee
29-07-2008, 11:59 AM
I concur that BOTH BM and English should go official and everyone master BOTH!. By all means, encourage (not insist) dialects to your offspring but thats as far as it goes. They will know better later on in life and its usefulness. Sorry if I'm blunt, but I feel that if one feels that one MUST master Chinese dialect over English or BM, primarily for business communication or wheelings and dealings, then your're dead wrong!. Business is business, money is money...speaking Chinese to another Chinese businessman doesn't guarantee a better deal!...period!
I'm just dead sick and tired of hearing the Ministry mulling over subjects to be taught in English!. Just DO IT!..or lag behind the competition!.

I like to live to see the day when EVERY MALAYSIAN use quality English or BM as a secondary alternative in daily communication.

bobkee
29-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Why would it be? These two are widely spoken languages everywhere...Must know dialects too...plus classes in Spanish would be a bonus.Well .. for starters, a significant majority of our fellow Malaysians are primarily literate in BM. By not being willing to build bridges, aren't we contributing to ethnic polarisation and segregation as well?

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Well .. for starters, a significant majority of our fellow Malaysians are primarily literate in BM. By not being willing to build bridges, aren't we contributing to ethnic polarisation and segregation as well?

Polarisation and segregation is not just due to language barriers...The politicians are doing a good job at that :D

I am sure that if every single person is so conscious in building bridges, they can all learn each other languages' too, not just a one way traffic?

If you could only master 2 languages, which ones would you choose?

bobkee
29-07-2008, 12:43 PM
The hypothetical question refers to a situation that would not exist. So its a false dilemma and possibly a straw man argument. We have to respond to current realities and work from a pre-existing priori.

While I agree that our politicians do bend over backwards to ensure ethnic polarisation, some of our actions or lack thereof serves only to affirm what they do and contribute to the exacerbation of these irresponsible acts.

Whether or not it remains a one way traffic ultimately depends on the person who's faced with this question. We can choose to build our side of the bridge or just sit still and claim that since the other side of the divide isn't starting work yet, one is absolutely justified in not doing anything on this side of the divide.

bslee
29-07-2008, 01:01 PM
The various type schools that exist (especially religious schools), moreover with full support of current generation of parents (that believe that its the best local foundation for the child) WILL contribute to racial polarisation and it can diminish the whole idea of Bangsa Malaysia by the next generation, amongst other consequences.

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 01:25 PM
The various type schools that exist (especially religious schools), moreover with full support of current generation of parents (that believe that its the best local foundation for the child) WILL contribute to racial polarisation and it can diminish the whole idea of Bangsa Malaysia by the next generation, amongst other consequences.

Bangsa Malaysia is a myth.

And I would fully support a single national type school with English as the main medium of instruction.

bobkee
29-07-2008, 01:39 PM
I would contend that Bangsa Malaysia is a social construct rather than a myth. So far, the construct has failed due to the persistent lack of effort by the stakeholders.

I probably have a minority opinion but I would like to see public funding be either :

Removed from all vernacular schools - with the caveat that vernacular languages be incorporated as part of the national school syllabus; or


Granted to all schools, with certain strict guidelines as well as a standard curriculum

QuietStorm
29-07-2008, 01:49 PM
And I would fully support a single national type school with English as the main medium of instruction.Excellent idea, Raikonen. Go with you there 100%.

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 01:58 PM
The hypothetical question refers to a situation that would not exist. So its a false dilemma and possibly a straw man argument. We have to respond to current realities and work from a pre-existing priori.

While I agree that our politicians do bend over backwards to ensure ethnic polarisation, some of our actions or lack thereof serves only to affirm what they do and contribute to the exacerbation of these irresponsible acts.

Whether or not it remains a one way traffic ultimately depends on the person who's faced with this question. We can choose to build our side of the bridge or just sit still and claim that since the other side of the divide isn't starting work yet, one is absolutely justified in not doing anything on this side of the divide.

Obviously social integration, unity or proficiency in National Language arent at the top of my priorities :D and the hypothetical question served to show my disdain on the hue and cry on why we must strive harder to give more focus on the NL.

I would very much prefer a good education in English medium such as ones in the little island down south.

bobkee
29-07-2008, 02:19 PM
Obviously social integration, unity or proficiency in National Language arent at the top of my priorities :D and the hypothetical question served to show my disdain on the hue and cry on why we must strive harder to give more focus on the NL.

I would very much prefer a good education in English medium such as ones in the little island down south.That's pretty obvious
:p

bslee
29-07-2008, 04:17 PM
I would very much prefer a good education in English medium such as ones in the little island down south.

I don't think it'll ever happen. Those buggers up there are too proud still insisting status quo, not wanting to emulate or relent to pressure from any quarter. They will continue to think and implement despite seriously lagging behind the competition, thinking there's still hope in their policies. A complete change of govenment along with all the silly and recycled politicians will then hopefully see change. Too many types of schools will further complicate and polarize the rakyat till its futile to undo. Is that where this country is heading?..Thats BN led gahmen for us all!.

firefox
29-07-2008, 04:32 PM
Our ministers and top vips send their children overseas for their studies, do you think they are serious about improving our education policy or any other government policies...come on folks get real our umno government is only interested in power grabbing at any cost..thats why they are spending all their time and money to bring the downfall of Dsai at this very moment, they have no time for you and me. We are doomed.

QuietStorm
29-07-2008, 06:01 PM
Our ministers and top vips send their children overseas for their studies..That shows how sub-standard our education system is, doesn't it? If not, why the need to send their kiddos overseas?

xaviers
29-07-2008, 07:01 PM
We are going round in circles again and again.

We had this discussion years ago when, govt wanted to change teaching medium to english.

then big ho ha ha and it was switch to maths and english

then some super wise guys said that rural areas cannot cope want to change back to Malay.

Then started another ho ha ha and plan to revamp after some million ringgit study

Now english thing makes a return...simply torturing our kids..


Like a dog chasing it's tail


The politicians don't really know what's outside the country and how it's changing..for all I know english is the key, whether they like it a not.

All they know is .......(tell u the truth I don't really know what they know)

bobkee
29-07-2008, 07:03 PM
I think there is a consensus that the key to improving the standards of English is not merely providing for 2 technical subjects to be taught in English.

Rocky19
29-07-2008, 08:20 PM
It is sad to see Malaysians who do not care about Bahasa Malaysia and unity of the country. Sigh. we are Malaysians, what is your national language...Malay. can you speak it...errr...malulah. And yet some asking for equal rights and be treated fairly but yet talk down on our national language.It is one of the few common things we as Malaysians all have. Yes English is important and a great advantage and knowing another language is always an advantage.Note that some countries like Japan etc have managed to do it with min English. was it the language or was it their work ethics and national pride that helped them become a force in the world? But to slam dunk and say I do not care about Bahasa Malaysia is not called for and not far sighted.

Never look down on your own country or language just cos of stupid politicians.Our loyalty is to King and country and every Malaysian should know Bahasa Malaysia and that was agreed by our forefathers.

Raikonen
29-07-2008, 08:37 PM
It is sad to see Malaysians who do not care about Bahasa Malaysia and unity of the country. Sigh. we are Malaysians, what is your national language...Malay. can you speak it...errr...malulah. And yet some asking for equal rights and be treated fairly but yet talk down on our national language.It is one of the few common things we as Malaysians all have. Yes English is important and a great advantage and knowing another language is always an advantage.Note that some countries like Japan etc have managed to do it with min English. was it the language or was it their work ethics and national pride that helped them become a force in the world? But to slam dunk and say I do not care about Bahasa Malaysia is not called for and not far sighted.

Never look down on your own country or language just cos of stupid politicians.Our loyalty is to King and country and every Malaysian should know Bahasa Malaysia and that was agreed by our forefathers.

What's the fuss about caring abt BM? To be accorded equal rights and fairness, speaking BM a pre-requisite? :confused: Are u an UMNO member? :D

I think everyone has a right whether or not he cares about national language or such..so dun begrudge one if one couldnt care less about languages..We all have our own priorities in life ;)

isarahim
30-07-2008, 12:37 AM
Note that some countries like Japan etc have managed to do it with min English. was it the language or was it their work ethics and national pride that helped them become a force in the world?
I can't believe that some people keep on repeating this fundamentally flawed argument. Malaysia is not Japan. Malaysia was created, founded, made independent and grew on the English language. Our relation to the English language is as old as the USA's relation to the English language. Our export oriented industry makes use of the English language almost 100%. FDI sought its way to the country largely due to our proficiency in English. We use the common law and we are active members of the Commonwealth.

The Japanese industrial growth was based on a combination of excellence in education, liberal business supportive policies as well as a large domestic home market. That's why language did not matter for them as much as it does for us. However, take note of the major shift in Japan the last 30 years. The younger generations are fluent in English.

The Japanese national pride, on the other hand, only achieved to make them the menace and murderers of the Pacific. National pride is worth zero. It has never played a role in a country's furtherance. It's a false friend that politicians like to talk about to justify irrational expenses.

isarahim
30-07-2008, 12:44 AM
What's the fuss about caring abt BM? To be accorded equal rights and fairness, speaking BM a pre-requisite?
Yes I think it should be a pre-requisite. You do not need to be UMNO member to realise what the nation is. BTW, UMNO is an English abbreviation, whereas PKR is a Malay abbreviation. Also command of English should be a pre-requisite. English should be made our second national language. Nothing wrong in that. Singapore, Canada, Finland, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, India and UAE are examples of countries with more than one national language.

Raikonen
30-07-2008, 08:58 AM
Yes I think it should be a pre-requisite. You do not need to be UMNO member to realise what the nation is. BTW, UMNO is an English abbreviation, whereas PKR is a Malay abbreviation. Also command of English should be a pre-requisite. English should be made our second national language. Nothing wrong in that. Singapore, Canada, Finland, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, India and UAE are examples of countries with more than one national language.

Sorry mate but I dun know this nation too...Was born in this country and tagged a non- bumiputra. Why the need for bumiputra and non bumiputra? Saya bukannya dilahir diatas langit atau di bawah laut... :D So why the discrimination? And we are talking about equal rights and fairness based on language abilities....

Back on subject matter, IMHO English should preferably be use as one of the official languages. And dun get too obsessed and paranoid of it supplanting or diminishing the importance of BM...It aint a zero sum game

xaviers
30-07-2008, 09:21 AM
......, IMHO English should preferably be use as one of the official languages. .....


Yup... If we want to play the game in the global arena..we better speak the language.

isarahim
30-07-2008, 09:41 AM
Back on subject matter, IMHO English should preferably be use as one of the official languages. And dun get too obsessed and paranoid of it supplanting or diminishing the importance of BM...It aint a zero sum game
1. You're missing the point, so don't chase windmills.

2. The allegation that UMNO should be the main promoters of BM remains erroneous.

3. The only practical and possibly widely acceptable and therefore implementable solution would be to have BM and English as national languages without ranking. You will not need any ranking. BM is a national and regional identity and spoken by the majority of Malaysians as well as in other countries throughout our corner of the world, so its position must remain.

4. Just like in Canada and Ireland, MPs should be able to chose which language they wish to use. Documents should be bi-lingual.

5. Dewan bahasa should be scrapped. They are an entierly unnecessary expense.

Raikonen
30-07-2008, 01:48 PM
2. The allegation that UMNO should be the main promoters of BM remains erroneous.

3. The only practical and possibly widely acceptable and therefore implementable solution would be to have BM and English as national languages without ranking. You will not need any ranking. BM is a national and regional identity and spoken by the majority of Malaysians as well as in other countries throughout our corner of the world, so its position must remain.


No one's saying that UMNO should be the main promoters...

As for national languages, the issue of ranking is irrelevant as BM will always be the numero uno...mother tongue what ...so no one should also question the status...How will that affect English usage and mastery....hmmm

For widely spoken throught the corner of the world, that would be true if that corner consists of Msia, Indonesia and maybe some parts of Thailand... :D

isarahim
30-07-2008, 02:04 PM
For widely spoken throught the corner of the world, that would be true if that corner consists of Msia, Indonesia and maybe some parts of Thailand
+ East Timor, Singapore, Brunei and Southern Philippines.

In total some 250 million people use Malay (or a mutually intelligible dialect thereof) as their first language. That's a decent sized corner! (I'm not counting Tagalog and its variants which, albeit related to and of the same root as Malay, is not mutually intelligible anymore.)

250 million speakers are about 3 times as many as there are German speakers; about 2 times the number of Japanese and Portuguese speakers and about 10 times the number of Scandinavian speakers (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish).

bobkee
30-07-2008, 03:06 PM
A significantly large corner indeed .. and with the increasing number of contributions on the social sciences originating from Indonesia, as well as other disciplines, we might be seeing some significant bull runs on the language's stock.

Rocky19
30-07-2008, 06:14 PM
+ East Timor, Singapore, Brunei and Southern Philippines.

In total some 250 million people use Malay (or a mutually intelligible dialect thereof) as their first language. That's a decent sized corner! (I'm not counting Tagalog and its variants which, albeit related to and of the same root as Malay, is not mutually intelligible anymore.)

250 million speakers are about 3 times as many as there are German speakers; about 2 times the number of Japanese and Portuguese speakers and about 10 times the number of Scandinavian speakers (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish).
as I said some are not far sighted.Indonesia alone has lots of potential and ask Msians doing bis there now. BTW I'm no UMNO member. Malay is not UMNO and B.Malaysia is not UMNO. ;)

HAN2
30-07-2008, 06:32 PM
UMNO is United Malays National Organization is English lah eh.... how to promote BM?

ignatio103
31-07-2008, 04:11 PM
hogwash to say rural people is weak to learn english.....
maybe stuttering initially in comm. english but as time comes ppl shall pick up sooner or later. Its whether the person has the initiative to pick up to learn or be afraid..
But generally to say i was the FIRST BATCH student entire syllabus is in B.M save for 1 english subject. First n fore most rural people mindset is attune to etnicity environment...Usually
this ppl will be wondering non mat salih speaking non native language....compare to city folks whom are more expose to english language environment such as advetisement, radio broadcast, tvs, leaflets, ppl conversations, business deals n whole lot of documentaton..For now my BM is 1st language but rarely being put to daily usage saves for chatting up with Malays bros.Nowadays in working environment whatelse but english/chinese. my 2 sens
as dear isarahim said both are equal...totally right...for unity n progress development. :)

bobkee
31-07-2008, 04:29 PM
It probably depends on one's idea of what rural is. I come from a small town but it was one that had at least 3 mission schools, 2 Catholic and 1 Methodist. So I had the privilege of being taught by teachers who had taught my father and were generally conversant in English, both in the classrooms and outside. Interestingly, the younger batch of teachers that came in were much less confident in speaking English publicly. And we're talking about less than a decade after the full conversion of all levels of public education into the Malay medium.

I had cousins from places where there used to be a Goverment English School (GES) and their English didn't suffer from the conversion to the Malay medium as well. I also had cousins where there were only SRJK and SK .. they don't speak English :)

And statistically, there were definitely much more SK's than there were GES's.

pywong
02-08-2008, 04:03 PM
We can consider 2 aspects:

1. Building national unity:
I tihnk here BM is necessary. If our children are staying and studying here, we will likely agree on this.

2. What does the market need?
Look around us to identify the major markets:
a. Anglo Saxon countries - English
b. China - Chinese
c. Japan - Japaneses
d. India - Tamil or Hindustani
e. Middle East - Arabic
f. Russia - Russian
g. Brasil - Portuguese
h. South America - Spanish
i. Germany - German

Isn't it important to prepare our children for the marketplace and help the country in the export market? If so, we need to learn the language of our customers. Likewise, if we wish to promote tourism, it helps a lot if we speak the language of the tourists.

We have competitive advantages in Chinese, Bahasa Indonesia, Tamil and English. So why don't we work on them.

Bahsaa Indonesia as our national language - save money on translation. We can tell Dewan Bahasa & Pustaka to pack up.
English, Chinese and Tamil as official languages to be taught to all students.

Offer Russian, Spanish, Japanese, Portuguese, Arabic as optional languages in the schools.

Our manufacturing advantage is lost to the other Asian countries. We need to look at tourism to generate foreign exchange.

Conclusion:
Bahasa Indonesia as National Language. I bet UMNO is going to scream. :D
English, Tamil & Chinese as official languages.
Other languages to be offered as options to the students.

HTCHONG
02-08-2008, 05:25 PM
Our manufacturing advantage is lost to the other Asian countries. We need to look at tourism to generate foreign exchange.

Conclusion:
Bahasa Indonesia as National Language. I bet UMNO is going to scream. :D
English, Tamil & Chinese as official languages.
Other languages to be offered as options to the students.
Yes..coping with globalisation, we have to know more than one language. Knowing BM alone is definitely lagging behind the progress.

Sugarfree
03-08-2008, 11:51 AM
Yes..coping with globalisation, we have to know more than one language. Knowing BM alone is definitely lagging behind the progress.luckily i can speak 3 languages but still i feel that's not exactly enough. it worries me to know there are people here who can only speak one language. :p how la, wei?

HTCHONG
03-08-2008, 05:43 PM
This may be off the topic of this thread but let me share with you the followings.

Last year, I met an American who was first time traveled to the Far East. He traveled to Shanghai followed by Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Bangkok and I met him in Singapore. During the dinner, he told me, he was impressed with the development and progress in the Far East. When he got back to US, he wrote me an email. Let me quote him "....I am impressed with the development and progress over in the Far East. I told my son that he is no longer competing with his follow Americans but the world....".

A couple months ago, in another occasion, I met a Chinese. He gave me an analogy on how the stability link to the progress of a country. He took bicycle as an example, the bicycle can only be balanced (or stable) provided that the bicycle is on the move.

To summarise the above, we are no longer competing with ourselves but the world. If we don't move on and progressing, probably we will doom. :rolleyes:

Raikonen
04-08-2008, 01:28 PM
as I said some are not far sighted.Indonesia alone has lots of potential and ask Msians doing bis there now. BTW I'm no UMNO member. Malay is not UMNO and B.Malaysia is not UMNO. ;)

Yes potential is good...But what use of it if it is not realised? Countries like China or Spore dun talk and talk about potential..They actually do and make things happen..Look at the transformation they did economically and now Olympics...Are Indonesia or even Msia still gonna harp on potential in 2020 or even 2057? :D No point looking backwards and thinking we have moved so much...

CCY
04-08-2008, 01:38 PM
...........
He gave me an analogy on how the stability link to the progress of a country. He took bicycle as an example, the bicycle can only be balanced (or stable) provided that the bicycle is on the move.

To summarise the above, we are no longer competing with ourselves but the world. If we don't move on and progressing, probably we will doom.
:rolleyes:
I've no doubt about moving and stability....BUT...moving backwards will also offer the perceived stability ....no..?;)

So... Changing from one language medium to another is moving forward or backwards or it is required to maintain stability here again ? Do you think that it is the most stable by putting the bicycle on its stand..?:D