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Shaneburger
29-04-2008, 12:43 PM
paklah, when you are down even your "own" people will kick you too ...

from http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/4/29/nation/21093494&sec=nation

dear wan, which part in freedom of religion that you failed to understand?

malaysia boleh :D

isarahim
29-04-2008, 01:02 PM
He can only speak from the context of Syariah law.

I don't see any reason why it couldn't be implemented under Common law. In addition, the person is under Common law before and up until the conversion is completed. Syariah law is only applicable from the point the conversion is completed.

AllUrban
29-04-2008, 01:04 PM
Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi had said the Government would introduce a regulation requiring non-Muslims wishing to convert to Islam to inform their family before doing so.

He said this would prevent problems of families disputing the conversion of their loved ones when they die.Stop the 'body snatching' instead. Then converts and their families might feel a little comfortable with each other.

Cheers, m

pywong
29-04-2008, 01:17 PM
Stop the 'body snatching' instead. Then converts and their families might feel a little comfortable with each other.
m, there are 2 conditions here - Dead or Alive?

Alive:
Let's say it is an unmarried man. If he converts, good luck to him. He can inform the family afterwards.
But if he is married, his conversion affects the wife and children. He should be required to resolve his marriage first before he is allowed to convert. Is the spouse and kids willing to convert also? If the spouse is not willing to convert, then he has to get a divorce before he converts. That will avoid all the dispute later.

Dead:
This involves emotional shock if the survivors finds out the deceased had converted. Not fair to them. Legally speaking, that's besides the point. But here you will have a body snatching dispute.

If there is property or estate left behind, bigger problem. Money comes into the picture as the inheritance laws are different for civil and muslim. Then you have religion coloured with money. Very difficult to solve if the beneficiaries were not aware of previous conversion. If they know, there is nothing much to be said.

No easy solutions.

AllUrban
29-04-2008, 03:56 PM
m, there are 2 conditions here - Dead or Alive?

Alive:
Let's say it is an unmarried man. If he converts, good luck to him. He can inform the family afterwards.
But if he is married, his conversion affects the wife and children. He should be required to resolve his marriage first before he is allowed to convert. Is the spouse and kids willing to convert also? If the spouse is not willing to convert, then he has to get a divorce before he converts. That will avoid all the dispute later.

Dead:
This involves emotional shock if the survivors finds out the deceased had converted. Not fair to them. Legally speaking, that's besides the point. But here you will have a body snatching dispute.

If there is property or estate left behind, bigger problem. Money comes into the picture as the inheritance laws are different for civil and muslim. Then you have religion coloured with money. Very difficult to solve if the beneficiaries were not aware of previous conversion. If they know, there is nothing much to be said.

No easy solutions.why should a person's religious conversion undermine his or her marriage or relationship with their family? Your obligations to your family and your family's obligations towards you need not cease when your religion is changed.

Islamic rulings say that muslims are responsible for all family members, muslims or not. And only some people accept the idea that muslims may only marry muslims.

Cheers, m

firefox
29-04-2008, 04:08 PM
I say can Jakim overrule the PM, isn't Jakim an agency and part and parcel of the govenment?

Shaneburger
29-04-2008, 04:17 PM
I say can Jakim overrule the PM, isn't Jakim an agency and part and parcel of the govenment?

too tired from all the other flip floppings ... Jakim is under JPM

pak lah boleh :D

pywong
29-04-2008, 04:32 PM
why should a person's religious conversion undermine his or her marriage or relationship with their family? Your obligations to your family and your family's obligations towards you need not cease when your religion is changed.

Islamic rulings say that muslims are responsible for all family members, muslims or not. And only some people accept the idea that muslims may only marry muslims.
Dunno. Malaysia Boleh version very confusing. I don't know whether they are coming or they are going. Shias they put in jail. Teapots they demolish. Don't believe, they put you in jail. Want to leave, cannot. So how? :confused:

pywong
29-04-2008, 06:03 PM
m, there are 2 conditions here - Dead or Alive?

Alive:
Let's say it is an unmarried man. If he converts, good luck to him. He can inform the family afterwards.
But if he is married, his conversion affects the wife and children. He should be required to resolve his marriage first before he is allowed to convert. Is the spouse and kids willing to convert also? If the spouse is not willing to convert, then he has to get a divorce before he converts. That will avoid all the dispute later.

Dead:
This involves emotional shock if the survivors finds out the deceased had converted. Not fair to them. Legally speaking, that's besides the point. But here you will have a body snatching dispute.

If there is property or estate left behind, bigger problem. Money comes into the picture as the inheritance laws are different for civil and muslim. Then you have religion coloured with money. Very difficult to solve if the beneficiaries were not aware of previous conversion. If they know, there is nothing much to be said.

No easy solutions.
K J John has said it in a better way here:

The non-Muslim spouse's options
KJ John | Apr 22, 08 11:17am

It is said marriages are made in heaven; but many do not believe in this theology! Many prefer to build and develop marriages entirely on earth and let them breakdown, and then find the easy way out, especially in Malaysia, by "converting to Islam."

http://malaysiakini.com/columns/81726

uchangeng
29-04-2008, 06:37 PM
In Christianity, you go thru Water Baptism, essentially, it means, annoucing your faith to everyone who care to know, including your family.

Why on earth a person want to hide his faith? Ashame of himself for doing it because of his alterior motive, like marrying a muslim woman?

How many willing souls actually convert because they love God? One clergy once said he would rather have one willing soul than 1000000000000 questionable souls....well said Pak Haji..

tupai
30-04-2008, 01:49 PM
this is becoming such a farce that I have story like this:

If i wanna save money during my funeral, I will convert to islam just before death.

I must also transfer all my properties/assets etc...to my soon2b xwife & children...After the legal thingys are done, I will convert and be buried as a muslim...(heck do i care what i am buried as...I am already DEAD, remember?)

Muslims get burial paid by the gomen, buried nearby in town, (not some arty farty storage pigeon hole 80km from home), and no need for elaborate ceremony.

Now, thats what I'd call a practical death solution.


Yang Akan Beragama Praktikal latotupai

Blue Jasmine
30-04-2008, 02:23 PM
Is silly for a person who convert their religion and hide the truth form their friends and families. I think they would loved to tell the whole world about it. Unless is something shameful or maybe there is other great reason. I think the real reason for pak lah suggestion is to avoid the body snatching incident. I dont think that the dead body got souls in it. I dont understand how by snatching the dead bodies you can gain extra one soul. Since the person is dead you also wont know if he really converted or not. So the most logical thing is to ask the person spouse or family.

Another thing is the person is already dead..maybe we should just let them R.I.P. And whether he convert or not God will surely knows. What for snatch the bodies? Is so hurtful for the families now that the dead has gone away. At least let them have a proper burial for remembrance. Why put more grief to the family? I dont see the point.

pywong
30-04-2008, 03:07 PM
Is silly for a person who convert their religion and hide the truth form their friends and families. I think they would loved to tell the whole world about it. Unless is something shameful or maybe there is other great reason. I think the real reason for pak lah suggestion is to avoid the body snatching incident. I dont think that the dead body got souls in it. I dont understand how by snatching the dead bodies you can gain extra one soul. Since the person is dead you also wont know if he really converted or not. So the most logical thing is to ask the person spouse or family.

Another thing is the person is already dead..maybe we should just let them R.I.P. And whether he convert or not God will surely knows. What for snatch the bodies? Is so hurtful for the families now that the dead has gone away. At least let them have a proper burial for remembrance. Why put more grief to the family? I dont see the point.
If we can put aside the emotion, we will see that race and religion are two very powerful tools used by politicians to control people and also to divide people. Please try to look at it from that perspective to see whether it makes sense or not. This was what I have suggested here: The Rat Race Part IV - The Pyramid (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=22660)

Of course, it is very hard to remain equanimous when one's loved one is involved. But that is exactly why the manipulation of religion is such a powerful weapon in the hands of unscrupulous people. So, the thing for us to do is to prepare ourselves mentally for such tactics and when we face it, we are prepared. (Easier said than done. Some people are very cruel having to resort to such measures to create so much suffering for power and money.)

firefox
30-04-2008, 03:39 PM
Sometimes i dont understand this issue of needing to inform your family Isn't obvoius that once you have embraced islam all identifications is changed auotmatically including the name. Everyone would know the conversion as matter of time.

Maybe someone can throw some light on this.

Joe Gomez
30-04-2008, 05:21 PM
Sometimes i dont understand this issue of needing to inform your family Isn't obvoius that once you have embraced islam all identifications is changed auotmatically including the name. Everyone would know the conversion as matter of time.

Maybe someone can throw some light on this.A little dicey to keep asking my wifey for her IC every 2nd day just to keep in the religious loop lor ..... ;)

Joe Gomez
30-04-2008, 05:25 PM
Stop the 'body snatching' instead. Then converts and their families might feel a little comfortable with each other.

Cheers, mThe body being referred to is that of the convert.
All this snatching happens after death.
The bloke is comfortably dead lah. ;)

gary yap
30-04-2008, 05:53 PM
This 'body-snatching' nonsense just add an extra dent to the already known Islamophobia. It's not helping anything. Certain Chinese family felt if their son marry a Muslim then he can no longer carry on the family name thus being known as unfilial. All religion preaches good, it's the extremist that "You give religion, a bad name" *to the tune of Bon Jovi song*.

Joe Gomez
30-04-2008, 06:36 PM
............ And only some people accept the idea that muslims may only marry muslims...............In other words most people accept the idea that Muslims may marry outside Islam ? But that is not in contention, methinks. :confused:

why should a person's religious conversion undermine his or her marriage or relationship with their family?Why shd it indeed ?
The only snag is that the chappies who define the rules that govern the new relationship do so unilaterally and with scant regard to the set of rules the convert came from. Scant regard for whatever promises were left unfufilled, promises that are now that many empty ones made under false pretext; how many expectations were left unrealised; how many lives ( wife, children, mother, father ) are suddenly thrown on undeservedly uncertain grounds.

So why cant the convert's family go appeal for justice, one might ask ?
WHERE TO ?
THEY ARE ASKED TO GO TO INSTITUTIONS WHERE HORROR OF HORRORS .......... THE JUDGE, JURY AND THE EXECUTIONER BECOMES SOME MULLAH, SOME TOK SOMETHING OR OTHER, SOME UMNO APPOINTED IMAM / SHARIAH BIGWIG.
This in a country that presumably taught the correct set of healthy Islamic values to that young guy who grew up, went to college and thought it fit to declare that it was halal to shed Karpal's blood.
Tell me where did the teaching of Islam in this UMNO corrupted country go wrong ?
How many others like that exist out there ?
How many of them grew up and have infilitrated the institutions of religious propagation / teaching / justice and hold positions as said Mullahs/Tok something/Imams/Shariah Bigshots ?

Old unconverted scenario >>>>> old God has no political backing but He is the one in whose name earlier non-Muslim marriage ws solemnised, children were baptised, children were schooled in religion, plans were made for family's future, ............

New converted scenario >>>>>> new God has UMNO's strong backing ......... the scenario into which a new convert steps.
The rules of life totally changed.
Total disregard for earlier religious commitments by convert.
Shariah courts totally skewed in favour of convert and pay lip service to the plights of the non-Muslim family ( to heck with previous religious commitments ) .... cos fait accompli mah? .............

................Your obligations to your family and your family's obligations towards you need not cease when your religion is changed........................Obligations as defined by civil or shariah laws?
And who will ensure that such obligation, when undertaken is equitable to all?
Who will ensure that it ( the obligations ) will indeed not cease?
Can that be ascertained before such conversion i.e. dertermine that the convert has the intention and the wherewithall to meet his obligations ?
Can conversion be denied if such ability does not exist ?

Islamic rulings say that muslims are responsible for all family members, muslims or not. We have a case of a father who converted, kidnapped his son and cenverted him as well without the knowledge of his spouse.
Did his previous family accept such conversion of the offspring ? Methings NO. So the tanggungjawab that he tunaikan was according to whose definition?
So responsible in what way ? The ONLY way i.e. the Muslim way?
I am not asking you to answer for the craphead student nor the kidnapper convert, it wld not be fair to demand that of you.
But this is the type of deviant behaviour that the brand of Islam taught/practised/encouraged by the UMNOfreaks encourages and nurtures.
It is in this context that you ask non-Muslims in Malaysia to have faith in your well meaning statements like Muslims are required by Islam to be responsible for their families both Muslim and non-Muslim.

AT THE SHARIAH COURTS .........
Are both wives to be treated equally?
Are all children from both marriages to be treated equally ?
Is property or assets generally to be distributed according to civil laws ( as was the exectation before the guy jumped ship ) or shariah laws which was never in the equation in the first place?
chang is going to shut this thread down for sure.
But before that I wanted you to know that all is not hunkydory in the Malaysian brand of Islam.

God bless Canada .......... where, it is my guess, that Islam and other religions coexist with one another without engaging in the Malaysian pastime of belittling each other and resorting to religious polemics and double talk ala UMNO Malaysia.

snoopywhite
30-04-2008, 10:11 PM
this is becoming such a farce that I have story like this:

If i wanna save money during my funeral, I will convert to islam just before death.

I must also transfer all my properties/assets etc...to my soon2b xwife & children...After the legal thingys are done, I will convert and be buried as a muslim...(heck do i care what i am buried as...I am already DEAD, remember?)

Muslims get burial paid by the gomen, buried nearby in town, (not some arty farty storage pigeon hole 80km from home), and no need for elaborate ceremony.

Now, thats what I'd call a practical death solution.


Yang Akan Beragama Praktikal latotupai


Good one!! I fully agree with the 'gulung tikar' idea! Sure save alot comparing to coffins!! Dead means dead, you won't be enjoying the expensive piece of coffin you bought, esp those comes in air-cond inside... come to think of it, with you get the air-cond service they promised? (Since they knew that you already DEAD and that u can't complaint :eek: )

Joe Gomez
30-04-2008, 10:21 PM
Part of the reason for apprehensions is obviously the fact that in the case of Islam, with the religion is packaged a legal / judicial framework which the UMNO sullied-practitioners ( and enforcers ) in Malaysia, have for a very long time, ABUSED to ride roughshod on all other legal / judicial systems they see in their path in this case the civil courts.
No other religion ( in Malaysia at least ) does that.
So a very powerful and admittedly beautiful tool like religion in the hands of UMNO baboons has morphed into something perceived as fear eliciting and merciless.
Such a tool when given the sanction of law ( shariah law that is ) thru the abovementioned leegal framework, becomes even more frighteningly formidable.
When this combination is placed in the hands of said baboons it takes on a persona of a callous, arrogant, merciless, intolerant, parochial, tunnel-visioned, self-serving entity .............. everything that Allah never intended it to be ....... but Allah would know who to hold to account for this mess ...... UMNO and its stupid gutless partners in Barisan Neraka.

joker2107
01-05-2008, 12:28 AM
if wan mohamad can propose that under the syariah laws, the duties and responsibility of the convert towards his non-Muslim parents did not stop after the conversion, is he suggesting by the apparent intentional omission of other members of the family that conversion stops responsibility of the convert towards the spouse and children who would not want to tag along in the conversion?

anyway, most critically, this wan fella should read, re-read and plant that post by isarahim deep deep into his thick skull. one aint a muslim until the conversion formalities are completed. and jakim has every authority, if there was political will power, to not formalise a conversion until secular civil obligations are observed. jakim, you dont own nobody, not even muslims, definitely not non muslims.

Joe Gomez
01-05-2008, 10:23 AM
if wan mohamad can propose that under the syariah laws, the duties and responsibility of the convert towards his non-Muslim parents did not stop after the conversion, is he suggesting by the apparent intentional omission of other members of the family that conversion stops responsibility of the convert towards the spouse and children who would not want to tag along in the conversion?

anyway, most critically, this wan fella should read, re-read and plant that post by isarahim deep deep into his thick skull. one aint a muslim until the conversion formalities are completed. and jakim has every authority, if there was political will power, to not formalise a conversion until secular civil obligations are observed. jakim, you dont own nobody, not even muslims, definitely not non muslims.Yep ...... and AMEN to that.

Joe Gomez
01-05-2008, 09:19 PM
Now we have wrOng Kah Ting clamouring to steal a piece of the thunder ................. and just as quickly putting his bluddy feet in his blubbering mouth. Read (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/5/1/nation/21121081&sec=nation).
The first paragraph in the Star item says,

PEOPLE who become Muslims through marriage should be allowed to renounce Islam if the marriage ends.

How does this Einstein intend to determine or make sure that the Jakim clowns ascertain that the individual who jumps ship i.e. converts, did so through marriage?
Can a guy who wants to marry a Muslim girl circumvent the suggested approach of this MCA court jester ?
Lets say he ( i.e the jump-shipper ) has the hots for this ravishing Muslim damsel but decides to hold his hormones for a month or two.
Before the commencement of said 2 month period he jumps ship i.e. converts.
After 2 uneventful (sic) months pass during which his hormones were in cryogenic suspension , he ties the knot claiming that his decision to marry the demure damsel was rather recently arrived at cooincidently after cessation of abovementioned period of cryogenic suspension of hormones.
How would the genius Sherlock Ong ascertain whether this is so or not ?
These buffoons in Barisan Neraka have never given these issues any serious thought and when they do rub their 2 available grey cells together ( to show the voters that they oso think about us ) they come up with such ideas as moronic as this.

isarahim
01-05-2008, 09:28 PM
I've told this many times before in this forum, so i'm sorry to my friend if he feels 'used', but he and his wife remain an important case in point.

My very far back friend, an arab from Tunisia, is married to a catholic girl.

Both have STAYED with their religions; Islam and Catholicism.

This has been NO ISSUE with the countries they've lived in; Tunisia, UAE, Algeria and France.

They have 2 daughters. Twins. One chose to become Catholic and the other chose to become Muslim.

This is the way it should work. The hypocrite half-wits in this country are only out to satisfy their narrow minds.

uchangeng
01-05-2008, 09:56 PM
The English prince that currently visit Malaysia praised our nation as a Good & Peaceful Muslim country, yahoooooo!

But, our passport says our citizens are not allowed to visit Israel.

Israelis need to obtain special permission from the PM department, like the two football officials of Chelsea, to visit our country.

We condemn the Jewish state maximum, call their government "regime Israel yang kejam, yang keji, yang biadap", short of calling them to be wiped off the surface of the earth like one Iranian president!

I just wonder why on earth, we, as a nation, so carried away by the hatred and condemnation of a people half a world away? Just because other Muslim neighbor of Israel condemn them? I have no grudge against anyone, y should I, God loves all His creation and as a people who loves God, y should we hate anyone on earth?

We can pray 5 times a day, but hate another human being? How we explain this ah????

sinleong
02-05-2008, 12:08 AM
last year i signed a statutory declaration that i have not and will not convert to islam. so if anything happens to me suddenly, my lawyer can help my family prove that i am not a muslim in case they come to snatch my body away.

Blue Jasmine
02-05-2008, 09:44 AM
last year i signed a statutory declaration that i have not and will not convert to islam. so if anything happens to me suddenly, my lawyer can help my family prove that i am not a muslim in case they come to snatch my body away.


Wah ..imagine if every none muslim have to do that just to avoid body snatching incident. I think we can put this matter at rest. IS not the amount of bodies that they have wins...is the heart that counts....besides a lot of things we can see...God give us eyes and mind and heart to see and justify and feel. We dont simply follow what people say. Everyone got freedom. If someone force you to obey something that you dont think is right you must find out. You must search for the truth.....Anyway Action SPeaks Louder than Words...When one religion puts itself ahead of others then we would just have more things to judge or to say about it.

Shaneburger
02-05-2008, 11:03 AM
last year i signed a statutory declaration that i have not and will not convert to islam. so if anything happens to me suddenly, my lawyer can help my family prove that i am not a muslim in case they come to snatch my body away.


sorry to burst your bubble, but according to the law in malaysia this does NOT work ... I've checked on this with a lawyer.... maybe your lawyer can advised?

coz if the jabatan agama has your signature/thumb print on the application form, you're done (all your wills ...etc are useless ... just asked the family of Mr Goh in Seremban)

... malaysia boleh :D

Joe Gomez
02-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Upon receiving, from the Banana Dude, wise advise ( with the prospect of a succulent banana being waved in my face ) and having seen the light, because of haunting vision of said banana, may I request all forumers, to kindly read BN wherever they see Barisan Neraka. Same same lah .......... but banana not worth it lor .......... ;)
Well cest la vie ! ........... what was ala mode b4 8th March is now banana worthy only lor. :(
Long Live the changster ..... May he sprout a lot more bananas to keep the supply coming. ;)
:D :D :D

AllUrban
02-05-2008, 01:24 PM
We have a case of a father who converted, kidnapped his son and cenverted him as well without the knowledge of his spouse.
Did his previous family accept such conversion of the offspring ? Methings NO. So the tanggungjawab that he tunaikan was according to whose definition?
So responsible in what way ? The ONLY way i.e. the Muslim way?..There is no "muslim way" in this case Joe. There are clear examples from the life of the prophet, including quotations and his own personal opinions, as well as from the Qur'an, showing that the responsibility to family members exists and continues to exist after conversion.


I am not asking you to answer for the craphead student nor the kidnapper convert, it wld not be fair to demand that of you.
But this is the type of deviant behaviour that the brand of Islam taught/practised/encouraged by the UMNOfreaks encourages and nurtures.
It is in this context that you ask non-Muslims in Malaysia to have faith in your well meaning statements like Muslims are required by Islam to be responsible for their families both Muslim and non-Muslim..I cannot control what is happening in Malaysia, and I understand the context of what is currently happening in Malaysia. I do want to show that there are other ways of doing things. I do want people to have faith that there is an Islamic world beyond the UMNOputera, Taliban, and Osama Bin Laden worlds.

I have just spent the past 3 years trying to show more than a dozen members of gf's family that "my Islam" is not the same as UMNOPutera Islam.

No, it is not easy to ask people to have faith when there is so much evidence to the contrary...but then, that is the whole point of having faith...keeping up the belief and hope in the absence of proof.

AT THE SHARIAH COURTS .........
Are both wives to be treated equally?
Are all children from both marriages to be treated equally ?
Is property or assets generally to be distributed according to civil laws ( as was the exectation before the guy jumped ship ) or shariah laws which was never in the equation in the first place?
chang is going to shut this thread down for sure.
But before that I wanted you to know that all is not hunkydory in the Malaysian brand of Islam.

God bless Canada .......... where, it is my guess, that Islam and other religions coexist with one another without engaging in the Malaysian pastime of belittling each other and resorting to religious polemics and double talk ala UMNO Malaysia.Joe, Im aware that all is not hunkydory in the Malaysian brand of Islam or in many other brands for that matter. You are not opening my eyes to anything I havent seen before. There is a lot of crap done in the "name of Islam" and "name of Allah" and it doesnt get easier to deal with this but it has to be dealt with.

I do this so that anytime someone speaks out and says, "how come the muslims dont speak up?" then I can say that I have spoken.

By the way, Shariah courts should recognize both muslims and non-muslims...and they should have muslim and non-muslim judges too! Why should they be mutually exclusive except to perpetuate and continue the racists, exclusionist attitudes that people have.

And to answer your questions about the Shariah courts, the answers are yes, yes, and yes. Just not in Malaysia, I suppose.

Cheers, m

Joe Gomez
02-05-2008, 02:33 PM
AllUrban,
I accept everything you say insofar as the presence of another perception of Islam and all that it stands for, is concerned.

Good guys like you are not my problem ..... you dont go out of your way to tell me that my religion, for instance, is subservient to yours.

Good guys like you dont tell me that if my gf (I am writing this when my wife is not looking .. gud Hindi movie on tv mah ! :D ) and I held hands in public both of us will be hauled up ......... to hell with me not being a Muslim.

Good guys like you dont snatch a dead body away in the name of religion.

Good guys like you are .... what is the word I m looking for now ?? Yes "GOOD" :cool: .

It is guys like Osama and Jakim and the freako-religious fringe in UMNO and PAS that get my goat.

Nevertheless good guys like you get my goat when no attempt seems to be made to educate the bad guys in Islam to shed their Nonislamophobia ( i.e. phobia for all things non-Isamic ) ....... your telling THE NON-MUSLIMS of the presence of the other way of looking at Islam notwithstanding.

You are telling us, i.e. the Good Guys from the other side.
We are the wrong guys to be talking to.
We are the aggrieved party.
We are the guys saying, "Hey bro, leave us alone."

You should be talking to all other similar Good guys, in Islam ( like you ) about ways to educate the diehard anti-non-Islamics within Islam ..... steps to remove the blinkers they have donned.

They will trust you when you talk to them. They will see a friendly person of the same kind talking to them. How much has been done to bring about this happy state of affairs in Malaysia?

All above comments refer to Malaysia a land filled with freako-religious vermins from UMNO and PAS.
I am not alluding to the brand of Islam in Canada ( God Bess Canada ) you guys are okay there, I presume. Good for you.
Not so happy situation in Malaysia, AllUrban, as you know.

Till such time as the desirable brand of Islam ( be it from Canada or any other civilised country ) is brought into Malaysia, wht shd the non-muslims do in the face of flagrant violation of basic religious and human rights ?
I do this so that anytime someone speaks out and says, "how come the muslims dont speak up?" then I can say that I have spoken.I understand that you would want to draw comfort from having spoken ........ but that's you only ............... that's not enough, dont you think?
You cannot do anything to make the UMNO and PAS fringe to listen to you and take action, either,can you ?
Your making peace with God and yourself is scant comfort for the non-muslims right?

Joe Gomez
02-05-2008, 07:23 PM
.....................( God Bess Canada ) ..............
What the Heck :o
Apologies to God, Ms Bess and Canada !
God Bless Canada !!!

Joe Gomez
02-05-2008, 07:30 PM
There is no "muslim way" in this case Joe. There are clear examples from the life of the prophet, including quotations and his own personal opinions, as well as from the Qur'an, showing that the responsibility to family members exists and continues to exist after conversion ................... AllUrban, such continuance that takes care of the welfare of the family this guy owed resposibility to, is as per which rules / guidelines ............the Muslim one ( post conversion one ) or the erstwhile ( pre-conversion one ) one ?
And of course the question that will naturally follow is "what if there is a conflict OR lack of clarity" .......... which one will prevail ?

joker2107
03-05-2008, 05:07 AM
I've told this many times before in this forum, so i'm sorry to my friend if he feels 'used', but he and his wife remain an important case in point.

My very far back friend, an arab from Tunisia, is married to a catholic girl.

Both have STAYED with their religions; Islam and Catholicism.

This has been NO ISSUE with the countries they've lived in; Tunisia, UAE, Algeria and France.

They have 2 daughters. Twins. One chose to become Catholic and the other chose to become Muslim.

This is the way it should work. The hypocrite half-wits in this country are only out to satisfy their narrow minds.
long live your friend, isarahim.
the family are already most richly blest by their gods.
they are the true ambassadors of humanity and religion.
they are the beacon of the peace and love espoused in the koran and the bible.
i'll be more than happy to permit some of my tax money to be spent on a belajar-sambil-melawat trip to tunisia and egypt and turkey for an um-no-islamophobic agenda. provided of course that those going honestly and sincerely go to seek the truth and come back to implement the truth instead of continuing to create a divergent society with their politically consumed deviant brand of islam.

Joe Gomez
03-05-2008, 06:30 AM
joker2107
Eg of what isarahim mentioned abound.

Almost everyone in Malaysia will have a story to tell.

A friend of mine migrated to Canada ( AllUrban, God Bless your country again my friend ) to avoid having to convert from Hinduism to marry his Malay girlfriend.
3 children ( and many years of freedom from relgious-freakos from UMNO, PAS and JAKIM later), they are now Canadian citizens.

Allah is indeed Merciful. This, the freakos referred to above, will never understand.

RGRaj
03-05-2008, 09:33 AM
I've told this many times before in this forum, so i'm sorry to my friend if he feels 'used', but he and his wife remain an important case in point.

My very far back friend, an arab from Tunisia, is married to a catholic girl.

Both have STAYED with their religions; Islam and Catholicism.

This has been NO ISSUE with the countries they've lived in; Tunisia, UAE, Algeria and France.

They have 2 daughters. Twins. One chose to become Catholic and the other chose to become Muslim.

This is the way it should work. The hypocrite half-wits in this country are only out to satisfy their narrow minds.

A Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman, because they are considered "people of the book", or ahli kitab. But their children MUST be brought up as Muslims.

A Muslim woman though can NEVER marry a non-Muslim man, whatever his religion might be. He HAS to convert to Islam first.

Joe Gomez
03-05-2008, 12:09 PM
RGRaj,
In the first place, my deepest respect to you for using your own name.
Same goes to the pcyeoh's, the pywong's, the kwchang ( this guy no choice lah !! :D ), the sinleong's, the aroki's ( where the heck is he ? ;) ), the raymond tan's, the uchangeng's, the isarahim's, the mackzul's ( where the heck is he oso ? ;) ) etc ........

We are made of sterner stuff, sir. ;)

Just pulling your leg ... :D


A Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman, because they are considered "people of the book", or ahli kitab. But their children MUST be brought up as Muslims.
In the 2nd place, this bears a strong resemblance to Catholic guidelines, doesnt it ?


A Muslim woman though can NEVER marry a non-Muslim man, whatever his religion might be. He HAS to convert to Islam first.This part I dono what Catholicism says .. anyone can shed light ?

Posted as ps .....
Okay, checked with resident faith-counsellor i.e. eldest brother :D .. he says man & woman same same .... lor

RGRaj
04-05-2008, 10:14 AM
Okay, checked with resident faith-counsellor i.e. eldest brother :D .. he says man & woman same same .... lor

You mean in Christianity, or Islam? Maybe it's ok in Christianity but it's impossible as far as Islam is concerned because it's a Quranic injunction & can never be disobeyed. This seeming unfairness in choice of partners for Muslims is to ensure that children are brought up as Muslims.

Since a man is considered the household leader, he'll have more influence on how the children are brought up. So a Muslim man shouldn't have any problem in this regard, even if his Christian or Jewish wife didn't convert.

A Muslim woman though would have problems raising the kids as Muslims if her husband is a non-Muslim. Hence this Islamic rule. I hope this makes it clear.

jararaca
04-05-2008, 11:09 AM
another flip-flop by the PM? No one seem to take the voice PM seriously.

Joe Gomez
04-05-2008, 11:24 AM
You mean in Christianity, or Islam? ..........I meant Christianity. My eldest bro who doubles up as faith counsellor is Christian ............. the last I checked.
At least I hope so ... otherwise my sis-in-law in for a rude shock. :D
In X'nity ( trying to coin a new term lah ) both male and female are governed by same guidelines.

joker2107
05-05-2008, 04:39 AM
A Muslim man can marry a Christian or Jewish woman, because they are considered "people of the book", or ahli kitab. But their children MUST be brought up as Muslims.

A Muslim woman though can NEVER marry a non-Muslim man, whatever his religion might be. He HAS to convert to Islam first.
that's your interpretation of the koran, rgraj. you may be right - its beyond my knowlege to debate.
but two things that have been constantly and hotly debated throughout the muslim world are the provision that there is no compulsion in relgion, and despite apostacy being frowned upon i the koran, the holy book has decisively steered clear of providing earthly sanctions for this "sin".

academicians tend to tread a mediate and reconciliatory path, but politicians are openly undivided over filling in the blanks for the holy book.

i have also come across islamic scholars who are dead against relegating women in the name of religion.

who's right and who's not? who's practising deviationist teachings?

my take is that, just like vatican sets the rules as guidelines for the catholic world, there should be one central global authority on islam. if need be, the shiites can have their own and the sunnis another, etc, just like the church of england and the methodists and lutherans and anglicans all have their own leadership. thereafter, the practice of religion is between the believer and the almighty - this is advocated by many islamic scholars and expounded especially in the koranic teaching that prying into the behavior of individuals in private is more sinful than any immoral act committed in such privacy.

therefore, the obligatory verb MUST which you used would be subject to scrutiny. and different interpretations by different factions within the same religion (just like christians, and yes, even the buddhists, have different interpretations for their respective holy books).

gary yap
05-05-2008, 09:46 AM
It's still an individual problem, their views hence why the moderates and extremist. I'm not surprised a majority of the Indonesian's muslims are moderate compared to the ones we have locally. My colleague, a Christian is extreme to the extend that he doesn't step into houses which worship dieties e.g. Taoism, Buddhisms, let alone temples. If our local goons, the Taliban-wannabes have their way then we'll have more problems compare to the 'body-snatching' case. The writing's on the wall, we have to open our eyes cos now my friends, the 'opposition' here is being more pious.

RGRaj
08-05-2008, 03:27 AM
that's your interpretation of the koran, rgraj. you may be right - its beyond my knowlege to debate.

It's not my interpretation. Most (if not all) Islamic scholars agree with this injunction. Google "Marrying People of the Book" and read the articles. You'll understand.


but two things that have been constantly and hotly debated throughout the muslim world are the provision that there is no compulsion in religion, and despite apostacy being frowned upon i the koran, the holy book has decisively steered clear of providing earthly sanctions for this "sin".

The debates are only for those who don't quite understand the chronological timeline of the Quranic revelations, & confuse themselves with contradicting verses.

The "no compulsion in religion" verse (al-Quran 2:256) was one of the earliest revealed "Medina" verses, when Muhammad just came to Medina. It was specifically meant for the Medinan Jews at that time.

Later verses abrogated this verse. Those who left Islam are to be punished. This injunction can be found in the hadith sahih.

bobkee
08-05-2008, 06:43 AM
So far only the Administration of Islamic Law Enactment 1978 of Johor has specific provisions for conversion out of Islam :


14(2). Whoever is aware of a Muslim person who has converted out of the Islamic religion shall forthwith report the matter to the Kadi by giving all necessary particulars and the Kadi shall announce that such person has been converted out of the Islamic religion and shall register accordingly.On the issue of spouses belonging to the "people of the book" (or Kitabiah) needing to convert if marrying a Muslim, 3 decisions (http://www.e-fatwa.gov.my/jakim/keputusan_view.asp?keyID=67) made by the National Fatwa Committee applies :


Apabila seseorang perempuan bukan Islam memeluk agama Kristian berkahwin dengan lelaki Islam maka nikahnya tidak sah kecuali kafir Kitabi.
(The marriage between a Christian woman and a Muslim man is not valid unless she is a kafir kitabi).

- 10th National Fatwa Council Meeting, 29 April 1975And in 1977, the kafir kitabi was defined :


Manakala persidangan kali ke- 14 pada 14 Julai 1977 memutuskan takrif Kafir Kitabi ialah orang Yahudi atau Nasrani:

Yang berketurunan Nabi Yaakub a.s., jika tidak diketahui datuk neneknya memeluk agama itu selepas dinasakhkan (dibatalkan) oleh agama yang berikutnya seperti agama Yahudi dinasakhkan oleh agama Nasrani dan agama Nasrani dinasakhkan oleh agama Islam; atau
(Whom are of the lineage of the Prophet Yaakob [Jacob for Christians or Yaakov for Jews], but is not known if their ancestors had professed the religion [that they are professing now] after it has been abrogated by another e.g. Judaism abrograted by Christianity, and Christianity abrograted by Islam, or)


Yang bukan berketurunan Nabi Yaakub a.s., jika diketahui datuk neneknya memeluk agama itu sebelum dinasakhkan.
(Whom are not from the lineage of the Prophet Yaakob, if it is known that their ancestors embraced the religion [that they are professing now] before it was abrogated [by Islam].)Hukumnya halal nikah dengan perempuan Kafir Kitabi seperti di atas. Adapun perempuan Yahudi atau Nasrani yang bukan Kitabi seperti yang disebutkan di atas adalah haram.
(The ruling pertaining to marriage with the women who is kafir kitabi as defined above, is permissible. A Jewish or Christian woman who isn't kitabi as defined above, is invalid.)

- 14th National Fatwa Council Meeting, 14 July 1977The decisions above were further clarified in 1980 :


Bagaimanapun dalam Muzakarah kali ke-18 bersidang pada 14 Mei 1980 mengambil keputusan bahawa;


Pernikahan orang Islam dengan perempuan Kitabiah (bukan asli) adalah tidak sah mengikut mazhab Shafie.
(According to the Syafie school of law, the marriage between a Muslim and a Kitabiah woman, who has not meet with the above conditions, is not valid.)


Pernikahan seperti itu (pernikahan orang Islam dengan perempuan Kitabiah bukan asli) yang telah dilakukan pada masa yang lalu harus mengikut pendapat setengah ulama' dengan syarat jika pernikahan itu diakadkan mengikut Islam dan keluarga itu hendaklah hidup secara Islam termasuk pendidikan anak-anak. Jika tidak dilakukan demikian maka perkahwinan itu hendaklah dibatalkan.
(Some jurists/ulama's hold the opinion that marriages solemnized in the past are acceptable, provided that the marriage was solemnised in the Islamic fashion, and the family had adopted an Islamic way of life, including the instruction of children from such marriages. In the event of the failure to do so, the marriage should be nullified.)


Pernikahan suami/isteri Kristian kemudian si suami masuk Islam maka pernikahannya dikira sah dengan syarat kehidupannya mengikut cara Islam.
(A marriage between Christians would be deemed valid upon the conversion of the husband to Islam provided that they live their lifes according to the tenets of Islam)- 18th National Fatwa Council Meeting, 14 May 1980This is quite interesting as it seems to imply that prior to these 3 decisions, the situation was quite ambiguous and probably very similiar to some Muslim majority nations today that do not legally require a spouse of a Muslim to convert to Islam upon marriage.

So unless you can prove that :


You're a woman, and


You are either of Hebrew or Arabic descent, or


You have Jewish or Christian descent that can be traced prior to the revelation of Islam to the Prophet Muhammad,then your conversion is more or less compulsory. The second point above does clarify why Christian Arabs are not required to convert to Islam if they marry a Muslim spouse (assuming they survive the social stigma and cultural persecution from both the Christian and Muslim communities that comes from crossing this Rubicon).

bobkee
08-05-2008, 06:57 AM
And in the cases of spouses who are not from considered kitabi either by the definition above or from non-Abrahamic faiths, a decision (http://www.e-fatwa.gov.my/jakim/keputusan_view.asp?keyID=64) was made in 1976 :



Nikah pasangan suami isteri yang bukan beragama Islam akan terputus jika salah seorang daripadanya memeluk agama Islam tetapi jika yang seorang lagi memeluk agama Islam juga dalam masa iddah itu maka kekal nikah mereka.
(The marriage between a non Muslim couple will be abrogated if one of the spouses embraces Islam. However, if the other spouse embraces Islam within the period of iddah (waiting period after divorce, during which a woman may not marry another man), then the marriage is deemed to have reconciled.)


Dalam keadaan di mana salah seorang daripada pasangan suami isteri yang bukan beragama Islam memeluk agama Islam maka hendaklah diberi penerangan kepada mereka mengenai terpisahnya yang akan berlaku (tertalak) jika seorang lagi tidak memeluk agama Islam dan hendaklah dinasihat dan dipujuk yang seorang lagi itu dengan hikmah supaya ia memeluk agama Islam juga.
(In the situation where a spouse embraces Islam, it is necessary for the converting spouse to explain to the non-Muslim spouse that their marriage will be abrogated [talak - to untie the matrimonial knot by articulating a word denoting divorce] if the non-Muslim spouse has yet to embrace Islam. The non-Muslim spouse is to be adviced and encouraged with wisdom to embrace Islam as well.)

- 11th National Fatwa Council Meeting, 16 March 1976We are interestingly conservative in our interpretations.

AllUrban
08-05-2008, 11:40 AM
interesting stuff Bob

So, according to Malaysian law the convert must inform their spouse but not necessarily their own family.

But, what is said about the convert's responsibility to that spouse aside from encouraging the spouse to become muslim?

Are there fatwas related to child support payments, division of assets, etc?

By the way, the lady from Penang has been allowed to leave Islam and resume her practice as a buddhist...and the local religious department has been ticked of for not ensuring that she practiced Islam while she was a muslim.

So at least there is a way out...if it comes to that.

Sigh...what a world we are living in.....

m

Joe Gomez
08-05-2008, 12:14 PM
......................and the local religious department has been ticked of for not ensuring that she practiced Islam while she was a muslim. .................And how were these religious bigshots supposed to have done that ?

Khuda-hafiz, m sahab. Aap Hindustani samastey hain nah ? :cool:

AllUrban
08-05-2008, 01:21 PM
And how were these religious bigshots supposed to have done that ?

Khuda-hafiz, m sahab. Aap Hindustani samastey hain nah ? :cool:Mudj ko pata nahi. Jub logh melayu nahi lagthey heh, yeh J.A.I logh ankhe band kartey hei.

nahi bara bhai Joe sahab...Ami Pakistan se hei. Ami ne tiis saal pele Canada pe gei.

Wow, sorry, Im not used to translating using roman alphabet.

And for everyone else

"I dont know. When people dont look malay, the religious department folks close their eyes."

"no, respected big brother Joe, mum is from Pakistan. Mum went to Canada 30 years ago.

Cheers, m

joker2107
08-05-2008, 02:40 PM
...and the local religious department has been ticked of for not ensuring that she practiced Islam while she was a muslim.


you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force the horse to drink.
i guess its time bigots understood that the horse is merely a convenient icon in this wise adage and the wisdom would still apply if it was human instead of horse. and if you replaced water with place of worship and drink with believe.

Joe Gomez
08-05-2008, 03:40 PM
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot force the horse to drink.
i guess its time bigots understood that the horse is merely a convenient icon in this wise adage and the wisdom would still apply if it was human instead of horse. and if you replaced water with place of worship and drink with believe.Bahut khoob! Aapney jo kaha hei, mujhey bilkul sahi lagta hei.......... joker2107-ji.
The above was to impress AllUrban sahab. :cool: :cool:

Now the translation
Well said!
Your comments sound absolutely true, joker2107. :)

RGRaj
08-05-2008, 08:02 PM
So at least there is a way out...if it comes to that.

Unfortunately, it ain't so for those who were BORN Muslims.

:(

bobkee
08-05-2008, 08:17 PM
Unfortunately, it ain't so for those who were BORN Muslims.

:(Except in Johor apparently ;)

bobkee
08-05-2008, 08:23 PM
interesting stuff Bob

So, according to Malaysian law the convert must inform their spouse but not necessarily their own family.

But, what is said about the convert's responsibility to that spouse aside from encouraging the spouse to become muslim?

Are there fatwas related to child support payments, division of assets, etc?There are quite a few, and each state would have their own fatwas as well. Will need to go check on the provision for nafkah. Some of these provisions are also codified in legislation rather than in fatwas. Unfortunately, there's no online location to locate the texts of these legislations.