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View Full Version : Charles Santiago: Selangor Water Supply - Take Water From Perak Instead of Pahang



pywong
15-04-2008, 05:16 PM
Selangor Water Supply

Yes, taking water from Perak rather than from Pahang makes more sense as both states are ruled by the same coalition and they don't have to worry about sabotage. In addition, since this is a totally new project, the state govt can negotiate with a new concessionaire in an open and transparent manner without having to worry about hidden charges.


MP: Seek underground instead of dam water

Chan Kok Leong | Apr 15, 08 3:51pm

Klang parliamentarian Charles Santiago questioned the rational behind the Selangor government's decision to continue with the Pahang-Selangor dam project.

http://malaysiakini.com/news/81406 Subscription required

cutebanana
15-04-2008, 09:34 PM
think of the Rakyat first

but what happen if Perak falls ?

then what ?

these type of decisions must be apolytical, it's hard, it's almost impossible, but it must be made, for the sake of you and me. ;)

pywong
15-04-2008, 10:12 PM
think of the Rakyat first

but what happen if Perak falls ?

then what ?

these type of decisions must be apolytical, it's hard, it's almost impossible, but it must be made, for the sake of you and me. ;)
That's a big problem isn't it?

Think of it this way:
Get from Pahang, which is BN-controlled, which by your definition, has fallen.
Or from Perak, which is PR-controlled.

Which state has a better chance of not being "fallen". :D

praetor
15-04-2008, 10:23 PM
Greetings.

I agree with the fact that the water project must be apolitical at all time. This is a very important project that is meant for the people of Selangor and that includes you and i. Regardless of which party that rules Pahang or Perak, what comes first should be the welfare of the people and also the quality of the project being delivered. We cannot afford to have a sub-standard execution of an excellent project. This might not resolve the water needs of the people of Selangor once and for all but this is a solution that is desperately needed for the immediate future. We can only hope the contractors of the project carry out the project with good ethics and an attitude that cares for the environment.

Ave!

pcyeoh
15-04-2008, 10:24 PM
Pahang is not another country so it doesn't matter if it is Pakatan Rakyat or Barisan Nasional so long it is not a banana republic. There is a lot of difference between Perak and Pahang. At that time of study, the BN could have chosen Perak or Pahang and I believe their choice is Pahang based on the distance is nearer and the supply of raw water is unlimited and does not depend so much on rainfall therefore the price is cheaper. What pride is there to take from another Pakatan Rakyat state where there is a political uncertainty and the cost of supply could be higher and the supply could be also uncertain. One of my friends who is an expert for years in Papua New Guinea and her Malaysian company actually is the Syabas of PNG has heard Santiago in one of the many water seminars where Charles was a speaker said that Charles Santiago may be a good social activist but is a no expert in water management.

pywong
15-04-2008, 11:33 PM
I will like to examine 3 assertions here:

I believe their choice is Pahang based on the distance is nearer and the supply of raw water is unlimited and does not depend so much on rainfall therefore the price is cheaper.
From this map BATANG PADANG - KL (http://www.multimap.com/maps/?t=l&map=4.21851,109.99511|6|4#map=3.72977,101.30855|10 |4&loc=MY:4.01667:101.08333:14|batang%20padang|Sungai %20Batang%20Padang,%20Perak) we can see that Batang Padang is near Teluk Intan and we would expect a pipe to be about 110km, which is probably twice that from Pahang.

The pipe from Perak is over open country. It can be laid by open cut and fill method, which is the cheapest form of construction. It can supply people living along the route, Maintenance is easy for this line.

The Pahang-Selangor Line (PSL) is a different kettle of fish. The PSL involves 35km of tunneling through the Main Range, through rock of unknown quality. Risks are high, consequently the cost. A km of tunnel could cost between 10 to 50 times that of open cut and fill method. The likelihood of cost-overrun due to unforeseen ground condition is very high. All tunneling projects suffer from this problem.

Maintenance costs are high.

Oh yes, we have not even begun to talk about the environmental impact of a dam, the dislocation to fauna, animals, Orang Asli, erosion, the danger of induced earthquakes, blah blah blah blah.

From a cost analysis, the Perak line would certainly be much cheaper. So using distance as the basis of argument for cost is fallacious.

BTW, we don't need RM 9 billion to build a 2000 mld water project. Those are Bolehland figures. A totally new project from Perak to Selangor will enable us to do away with all those nonsense. I don't have the figures at hand but I would be surprised if it reaches even RM 1 billion, with some spare change left over for my retirement. Nowadays, politicians bandy billions around like kacang putih.

PC claims that the Pahang project does not depend so much on rainfall. I have not heard of any dam project in the tropics that does not depend on rainfall. Unless PC has a technology to generate snow from thin air.


my friends who is an expert ... said that Charles Santiago may be a good social activist but is no expert in water management.
To use the opinion of an "expert" friend to denigrate the proposal of Charles does not seem very fair. Consider the details of his proposal and demolish it, if you will.

My point: Consider Charles' proposal on purely economic, engineering and environmental principles.

BTW, I have built dams, tunnels, water supply and treatment plants. So I believe I know a little bit about this stuff. But no, I am not an expert. :D

Rocky19
15-04-2008, 11:57 PM
if things start to go with this is PR state and this is BN state and lets not work together, me against you...more like Azalina kind of thinking. I hope PR leaders are not thinking like this, if they do my next vote will be against them.Yes make decisions on economic sense, please go ahead but doesn't mean all done by the previous gomen is bad.

PR leaders thus far have shown to have a good sense of judgment albeit couple of small mistakes.Thank god. I hope they go for labels like well run state, transparent state instead of PR states etc.

pywong
16-04-2008, 01:20 AM
if things start to go with this is PR state and this is BN state and lets not work together, me against you...more like Azalina kind of thinking. I hope PR leaders are not thinking like this, if they do my next vote will be against them.Yes make decisions on economic sense, please go ahead but doesn't mean all done by the previous gomen is bad.

PR leaders thus far have shown to have a good sense of judgment albeit couple of small mistakes.Thank god. I hope they go for labels like well run state, transparent state instead of PR states etc.
As a rule of thumb, we can assume that any privatisation project by BN stinks. Otherwise, why would they hide it under the OSA?

To get a fair price, we have to start from scratch.

Your point in not differentiating between BN and PR states is valid. But have you forgotten about Azalina and the cancellation of the Tourism MOU and the JKKK penghulus incidents? Does that not portend the future with respect to BN and PR relationship - not of PR's choosing, mind you.

Given the above scenarios, it would make economic sense to be able to secure your flanks, wouldn't it? Certainly, as a businessman, that is what I would do.

BTW, there is a very fast way to increase our water supply:
Non-revenue water - relay all our old pipes. Currently, we lose more than 40% of our water in leakages.

Rain water harvesting: It is time we collect our rain water from the roof for gardening and floor washing. This will alleviate some of our flooding problem. Not much but every little bit helps.

racheljansz
16-04-2008, 07:46 AM
Rain water harvesting: It is time we collect our rain water from the roof for gardening and floor washing. This will alleviate some of our flooding problem. Not much but every little bit helps.
Managing rain water as a household chore?
This is interesting and what do you have in mind?
How do flat/Apartment/High rise resident manage this?

pywong
16-04-2008, 09:37 AM
Managing rain water as a household chore?
This is interesting and what do you have in mind?
How do flat/Apartment/High rise resident manage this?
Rainwater harvesting: That's a fancy term for what our grandparents did in the good old days when there was no water supply. See here:
http://www.gdrc.org/uem/water/rainwater/introduction.html
http://www.rainwaterharvesting.org/
http://www.rain-barrel.net/

The Jabatan Parit & Saluran (JPS) is promoting the concept that new projects should not add on to the drainage load. A new manual has been issued but I am not familiar with the details. It is a good idea but the difficulty lies, as with most things in Malaysia, in enforcement. We have 1st Class Laws but 3rd Class Enforcement (due credit to Badawi for his 1st World Infrastructure and 3rd World Maintenance)

I am thinking along the lines that MPSJ should offer tax (house assessment) credit to households that install rainwater harvesting systems. This serves 2 purposes:
1. Cut down on water usage.
2. Reduce the rainwater discharge into our drains. This has the effect of ameliorating the peak stormwater flow into our rivers, thereby reducing the incidence of flash floods.

Our present approach to water supply is exactly like that of traffic. Keep on producing more and more water to meet demand. We can save more money by reducing demand, reducing leakage, pilferage and rainwater harvesting. But that is not the way to create projects. And projects are where the money is.

I could go on and on. But Big Brother is watching me. :D

Chia Hak Soon
16-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, we have one of the deepest lake in Kuala Lumpur ( the mines, former sg besi mines ) . Why is that no efforts has being done to use the water.?

pywong
16-04-2008, 11:42 AM
Just out of curiosity, we have one of the deepest lake in Kuala Lumpur ( the mines, former sg besi mines ) . Why is that no efforts has being done to use the water.?
Just hearsay. I understand the water contains heavy metals and is too difficult to treat. I could be wrong though.

2nd point about geology:
If we lower the ground water table too much, it can have an effect on the neighbouring ground with respect to subsidence. Maybe sinkholes could pop up. These are old mining areas, remember. We don't want rename "The Mines" to "The Holes" :D

pywong
16-04-2008, 11:44 AM
(due credit to Badawi for his 1st World Infrastructure and 3rd World Maintenance)
Or is it 1st World Infrastructure and 3rd World Mentality.