PDA

View Full Version : Shop-house churches must get permits?



Shaneburger
19-02-2008, 12:52 PM
Hi,

I am more confused after reading the Sun and this link http://www.bobjots.org/2008/02/churches_must_get_permits.php

questions:

1) under what law (Federal or State or Local Govt) are the churches require to pay the RM 1,000 a year permit?

2) if a church is on religious land, then no need to apply? if the church owns the building does that qualifies it? what constitutes and who determines religious land?

YB Lee Hwa Beng - wanna take a shot?

:)

bslee
19-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Hmmm.. I wholeheartedly NOT support any imposition of permit fees of any sort to churches or any places of worship. I don't see any justification of any fees. Can't a simple registration suffice? What next?..some possibility of an accusation of illegal gathering in future?. Tell me why RM1000?.. why that figure?.

The way Malaysia is heading is a Malaysia difficult for its very own citizens who call this home to be comfortable with!. You know what I'm trying to say.

sarawakian
19-02-2008, 01:07 PM
Hmmm.. I wholeheartedly NOT support any imposition of permit fees of any sort to churches or any places of worship. I don't see any justification of any fees. Can't a simple registration suffice? What next?..some possibility of an accusation of illegal gathering in future?.
Tell me why RM1000?.. why that figure?.

Are suraus charged any fee?

USJ27Resident
19-02-2008, 01:07 PM
Hmmm.. I wholeheartedly NOT support any imposition of permit fees of any sort to churches or any places of worship. I don't see any justification of any fees. Can't a simple registration suffice? What next?..some possibility of an accusation of illegal gathering in future?.
Tell me why RM1000?.. why that figure?.

dunno... mebbe they think the worshippers gonna adjourn to the slot machine room after prayers... :p

sarawakian
19-02-2008, 01:16 PM
Hmmm.. I wholeheartedly NOT support any imposition of permit fees of any sort to churches or any places of worship. I don't see any justification of any fees. Can't a simple registration suffice? What next?..some possibility of an accusation of illegal gathering in future?. Tell me why RM1000?.. why that figure?.

The way Malaysia is heading is a Malaysia difficult for its very own citizens who call this home to be comfortable with!. You know what I'm trying to say.

Freedom of worship is so difficult now and the politicians playing GOD are to blame....They are the biggest sinners for making others perceive each other differently. It is time politics is given a new reason and if religious freedom is a reason, so be it! I am just fed up with various reasons I have heard even with the reason for certain faiths to have many structures for their ease in praying...Correct me, but I believed that GOD says you make do with what you have and prayers and praying is from the heart and not buildings. I have a humble question to that effect of suraus.

StonTemplePilot
19-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Talking about suraus...there is one near USJ12 which is really loud at 6am in the morning, waking my household up and scaring my pet dog.

What can I do?

By the way, there are some churches operating in USJ1 factories areas and to charge them RM1000 for permits....I think the same standards should be applied to all house of faith and worships. Taking into account that churches had to fend for themselves financially compared to some other lucky faith, I think it is tad unfair.

bslee
19-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Thats why I say this regime you've given the mandate in 2004 is likely a root to many controversial and unfair issues that pop up every now and then which can stir up peoples emotions. Its like the famed Gordian knot which this party cannot undo the problems they started in the first place. Alexander the Great just cut it!..problem solved!.

firefox
19-02-2008, 02:32 PM
I dont understand why the authorities are afraid of The Christians. What harm have we done to be treated this way.

Frankly if the Muslims are strong with their faith they shoudnt be too unduly worried of our living religion.

Afterall we not building big monumental buildings its just some shop lots in some inconspicious corner.

This will definately affect the outcome of the election.

bslee
19-02-2008, 02:45 PM
The matter is specifically why a church must have a permit, an amount of RM1k levied and justification. Could it mean if there's no permit, its an illegal gathering (disregarding any purpose) and authorities would have just cause to disband or arrest anyone in attendance there?..who knows?..but it spells trouble if there's action.
Of course I don't wish to see any trouble. we're all peace loving people. But one never knows..there exists "batu api" here & there.

3-4 decades ago Malaysia have established orthodox churches and everyone lived quite peacefully, NO racial tension, NO religious tension...NO problems. till May 13th. (I believe the land where big temples and churches are already there are granted in perpetuity.)

NOW, there's all sorts of charismatic churches springing out like mushrooms. I'm also confused.
I'm quite sure the muslims don't wish for the same phenomenon to happen and I believe there's strict and efficient gahmen backed control on this.
Now comes the problem of control, the gahmen wanna be on top of things (AS IF IT'S FULLY RESPONSIBLE!). But how the gahmen exercise and implement measures upon others is subject to high controversy and very rude.
My 2 sen worth here.

bobkee
19-02-2008, 03:40 PM
I guess I should have provided more details regarding zoning regulations. Proper town planning would demarcate land for certain usages, ie. residential, commercial, industrial, public services, religious, et al. So in a sense, it is justified to request that religious buildings be located in areas zoned for religious use .. well kinda.

Religion remains a very difficult area to legislate on due to the the nature of religion. Most jurisdictions merely adopt a bare minimum - ie. doesn't advocate violence, doesn't threaten public peace.

BS Lee already gave us an idea what are some of the difficulties that might arise:

Land zoned for non Muslim religious use is scarce and is contested by multiple religious bodies
In the case of Christians, due to the tolerance of theological diversity within the community, esp among the Protestants, there are numerous church bodies and denominations that exist. If a particular neighbourhood only has 1 piece of land zoned for a church, who's going to get it?
Conversion of land zoned for other purposes to religious use is an uphill task that takes many years, as experienced by the Catholic Church in Shah AlamPersonally, I am for small government in the area of conscience and religion. This would create less tensions esp in a society where one faith community is clearly identified with the state and a particular ethnic group.

silver_bird
19-02-2008, 06:32 PM
Read Lawyers' comment :-
http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/legal/general_news/shop_house_churches_must_get_permits.html#jc_write Comment

Shaneburger
19-02-2008, 06:48 PM
Read Lawyers' comment :-
http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/legal/general_news/shop_house_churches_must_get_permits.html#jc_write Comment

thank you silver_bird :)

besitai2007
19-02-2008, 10:07 PM
I dont understand why the authorities are afraid of The Christians. What harm have we done to be treated this way.

Frankly if the Muslims are strong with their faith they shoudnt be too unduly worried of our living religion.

Afterall we not building big monumental buildings its just some shop lots in some inconspicious corner.

This will definately affect the outcome of the election.
I see it as the fear of some religious leaders that some people may be confused by the similarities between aspects of the old testament in Christianity and the Quranic teachings. Jesus is also featured in the teachings of Islam. Even Buddhism and Hinduism share similarities especially in the teaching about rebirth. I feel that all religion seek to make us better people and to respect others. Each religion should not "fear" the other. History of persecution of the followers of different religions are known. The only way a person can understand his/her religion is to make an indepth study of the teachings and not be swayed by the interpretations of others. Sathiya Sai Baba preaches love and the unity of all world religions and asserts that people who follow him do not need to give up their original religion. Why can't we all share our faith? Why must we prove that one religion is better than another? Peace and love to all.

bslee
19-02-2008, 10:22 PM
I see it as the fear of some religious leaders

Please allow me to emphasize that this is not so much of anyone practice of one's faith and religion or the morals we've inherited or handed down.
This is purely an issue involving the government or its linked agencies, their approach, their decisions and their actions or interference. People are feeling oppressed and hurdles are set in when there were hardly any before. What boggles my mind is actual reasons a permit is needed and a princely sum of RM1000?. I'm ain't sure but the gahmen seems paranoid to be in the know of ALL GATHERINGS (political, MLM, religious, educational, motivational, etc). They want to know your EVERY MOVE?.

wksp
20-02-2008, 12:12 PM
Hmmm.. I wholeheartedly NOT support any imposition of permit fees of any sort to churches or any places of worship. I don't see any justification of any fees. Can't a simple registration suffice? What next?..some possibility of an accusation of illegal gathering in future?. Tell me why RM1000?.. why that figure?.

The way Malaysia is heading is a Malaysia difficult for its very own citizens who call this home to be comfortable with!. You know what I'm trying to say.
religion freedom is not happened here.the permit can be terminated anytime they like.You are right the churches are all illegal in the contact of law because they can not get approval to set up churches.The churches all registered under sdn bhd or partnership as a company.no choice but to proceed this way.Teresa Kok is right to mention subang has only one legal church in ss17 which happen to be
existed many years ago.To all pp please think deep and change the nation for good.

bobkee
20-02-2008, 04:14 PM
LHB is now claiming that he was misquoted. I wonder why he didn't provide his actual quote then?

racheljansz
20-02-2008, 04:27 PM
LHB is now claiming that he was misquoted. I wonder why he didn't provide his actual quote then?Why did he not tell his God that?
"Looks like me, sounds like me. I guess they misquoted me"

firefox
20-02-2008, 04:57 PM
With the introduction of Badawi's Islam hadari we are witnessing more interference with religious affairs like never seen before..so whats so grand about this hadari thingy when the govenment has no tolerence for other religions in this country..such hypocrities!!

bslee
20-02-2008, 06:59 PM
LHB should come out and clarify the matter so we all can understand, but he hasn't. We got no time for wild goose chase for correct answers.

wksp
20-02-2008, 07:38 PM
He is not responsible to subang anymore,our brother is looking forward to Kelana Jaya MP post.So why should him bother to explain further to complicate things.I think it happen in all part of Malaysia .

Shaneburger
20-02-2008, 08:56 PM
LHB is now claiming that he was misquoted. I wonder why he didn't provide his actual quote then?

from: http://hwabeng.org.my/node/975

I have been misquoted in the Sun. MPSJ and the State Government has never asked churches to apply for permits to have churches in shops and factories.

Lee Hwa Beng

Thank you YB, case closed and permits are not needed for churches in MPSJ? :D

bobkee
20-02-2008, 11:48 PM
I'm just wondering why my comment never got published there. I merely said:


For a misquote, there seems to be a lot of details

Rocky19
21-02-2008, 12:27 AM
lots of belly dancing suddenly....ehm.

lets see what happens after election lo. Shophouse are not easy to demolish which is a good thing. will they be asked to leave? will they need permit? will they be left alone? well we know after election. But they will not get land for a church instead have to be in shop houses etc. Malaysia practises religious tolerance and a model for other countries to follow according to Pak Lah. :p

charis14
21-02-2008, 01:38 PM
I have been misquoted .... Thank you YB, case closed and permits are not needed for churches in MPSJ? :DMy initial response was 'yes, LHB should be telling the truth'. But on reading the newspaper report again, I must agree that...

For a misquote, there seems to be a lot of details:D
Does it mean the reporter not only misquoted LHB but even put in a LOT of details to go with it. Should this reporter be sent to Siberia ? Or Iraq?

yong
21-02-2008, 09:11 PM
Aiyah, don't talk about Muslim only lah, some non Muslim are also giving a Church in Subang Jaya a hard time.

The Church wanted to expand, but have to scale down because of objection from some surrounding resident.

Praise the Lord, eventually it's all okay now and extension will start soon.

starrnorth
23-02-2008, 12:34 AM
After reading the link:

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/legal/general_news/shop_house_churches_must_get_permits.html#jc_write Comment

It is surprising to read that somehow no church has come to know that there is an objection period about implementing of RM1k yearly permit, until the objection period is over.

Are these christains so blind not to notice this or is it that the so-called objection period is a hush hush thing so as to make it no one will know until it is over.

Under what law is this RM1k permit implemented - is it the whims and fancies of our political little napoleon to make things difficult for other people ?

yong
26-02-2008, 11:19 PM
LHB has clearified on the Rm1k issue in today's Star paper.

bobkee
27-02-2008, 01:17 AM
It still doesn't clarify anything. Its merely a denial but a lot of irregularities are not engaged. How then, if LHB did not say anything along those lines, did The Sun's journalist cover so much details in her report? Was she embellishing her report? Is it a fake and malicious report? If so, why is there no legal action against The Sun?

LHB initially claimed he was misquoted. What then did he say that would've allowed a journalist to assume that what he meant was that religious organisations occupying land that's not on religious use zones are subject to RM1,000 permit?

hhtee
27-02-2008, 08:44 AM
Someone please slap me. *SLAP* I turn to the other cheek

*SLAP* *SLAP* *SLAP WITH A BAG WITH RM1000*

I still don't believe LHB especially when he put on the nomination form, "TIADA PEKERJAAN" :D

Raikonen
27-02-2008, 09:01 AM
I question not the RM1000, whether is payable coz I think it's total crap an nonsense.

I DO question why is that churches have to be built mostly in low visibility areas and tucked away from sight, i.e. industrial areas, factory warehouses, upper ground of shoplots?

Why does it take decades for approval for a church to be built i.e. Shah Alam?

Is this the type of religious equality that the BARISAN NASIONAL is espousing?

hhtee
27-02-2008, 09:05 AM
I question not the RM1000, whether is payable coz I think it's total crap an nonsense.

I DO question why is that churches have to be built mostly in low visibility areas and tucked away from sight, i.e. industrial areas, factory warehouses, upper ground of shoplots?

Why does it take decades for approval for a church to be built i.e. Shah Alam?

Is this the type of religious equality that the BARISAN NASIONAL is espousing?

very good point. Is similar to like when I went to Menara Telekom at Pantai. Where can I find non-halal food? Next to the toilet. (as of today, the chinese non-halal food is next to the toilet. is this at all hygienic?)

firefox
27-02-2008, 03:11 PM
I question not the RM1000, whether is payable coz I think it's total crap an nonsense.

I DO question why is that churches have to be built mostly in low visibility areas and tucked away from sight, i.e. industrial areas, factory warehouses, upper ground of shoplots?

Why does it take decades for approval for a church to be built i.e. Shah Alam?

Is this the type of religious equality that the BARISAN NASIONAL is espousing?


This is the reason why we are not voting the BN.. dont miss this chance to deny them of the 2/3 you fence sitters and cowards.

wksp
27-02-2008, 05:50 PM
This is the reason why we are not voting the BN.. dont miss this chance to deny them of the 2/3 you fence sitters and cowards.
so u are not cowards i taught u are always let things happen and sign to the conditions we are facing.ARENT U?i hope u are not, anyways u are right let vote to dethrone the oppressors at least to reduce their votes.Enough is enough.

starrnorth
03-03-2008, 02:18 AM
from: http://hwabeng.org.my/node/975

I have been misquoted in the Sun. MPSJ and the State Government has never asked churches to apply for permits to have churches in shops and factories.

Lee Hwa Beng

Thank you YB, case closed and permits are not needed for churches in MPSJ? :D

LHB is a lot of crap. I concluded this after having been following him at various forums and noting his reply to questions and I realised that he answer what the crowd want to hear, but very vague.

His answer that the gahman has not asked church to close, but just ask them to apply permit, is treating us all like we are stupid. So what if the church do not apply for the permit ? Fine them? close them down ? LHB should tell us more and give more specific answers rather than give general statements.

Thank goodness he is getting out of SJ.. but worse he is going for MP.

Actually he did not win the last election.. he was just given a walkover. This time he is walking out because he know he cannot win.

Shaneburger
06-03-2008, 01:29 AM
...His answer that the gahman has not asked church to close, but just ask them to apply permit, is treating us all like we are stupid. So what if the church do not apply for the permit ? Fine them? close them down ? LHB should tell us more and give more specific answers rather than give general statements.....


good point :)

too bad Jeff Ooi or Syed Shahrir not running in Kelana Jaya :confused:

firefox
06-03-2008, 08:21 AM
good point :)

too bad Jeff Ooi or Syed Shahrir not running in Kelana Jaya :confused:


Not to worry i believe God works in mysterious ways.

H.S.Seah
06-03-2008, 06:58 PM
Vote Bn out and no need church permit in shophouse. Do it this Saturday 8Th March 2008. These guys LHB etc has been running dogs for umno . At least DAP can check and balance.

Shaneburger
06-03-2008, 07:47 PM
Vote Bn out and no need church permit in shophouse...


Does anyone knows if you need a permit for a shoplot/factory church in Kelantan?

firefox
12-03-2008, 02:22 PM
Our prayers has been answered now there should be no problem with the new government to get permission for respectable sites for churches and temples.

Shaneburger
12-03-2008, 02:41 PM
Our prayers has been answered now there should be no problem with the new government to get permission for respectable sites for churches and temples.

:D :D :D :D :D :D