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Good Guy
11-09-2007, 02:41 PM
I receive this email today and like to share with all of you. Don't know how reliable it is, but makes sense, and hopefully ringgit and sen!! :D

<< How not to lose money at the gas pumps!
> >
> > (1)My line of work is in petroleum pipeline for about 31 years
> > now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for
> > every litter.
> >
> > (2)Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when
> > the ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service
> > stations have
> their
> >storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more
> >dense is the gasoline, when it
> gets
>
warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening,

> your 1-gal is not exactly 1-gal.
> >
> > (3)If there is a gasoline truck bringing loads at the time when you
> > have to buy gas do not fill up,
> most likely the gasoline has been stirred up when the gas is
> delivered, and you might get some of the dirt that settled at the
> bottom.
> >
> > (4)When you're filling up do not squeeze the
> trigger
> > of the nozzle to a fast mode. If you look up you will see that the
> > trigger has three (3) stages:
> > lo, mid, and hi, with slow mode you should be pumping on low speed,
> > thereby minimizing the
> vapors
> that were created while you are pumping.
> >
> >If you are pumping on fast rates, some of the
> liquid
> >that goes to your tank become vapors; those vapors were being sucked

> >up back to the underground tank
> so
> that you're getting less worth of your money.
>
> > (5)One of the most important tip is to fill up
> when
> >your gas tank is half full or half empty. The
> reason
> for this is, the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying

> it's empty space, remember gasoline evaporates faster than you think.
>
> > Hope this will help you guys with your pump cost. >>

monster
11-09-2007, 04:10 PM
sounds logical... but how much it equates to in dollars and cents (ringgit & sen).... hmmmm....

denver
11-09-2007, 06:03 PM
I have heard these "tips" before, and they seem to be centred on how gasoline/petrol expand during hot day and evaporates at certain temperature. But I always wondered how true they are.

I'm no chemical engineer, but my logic tells me that petrol is a liquid, and liquid (e.g. water) does not physically expand when heated. So does petrol really expand when it's hot? If petrol does not expand, then the theory of refilling petrol during hot day or in the evening doesn't seem to hold ground.

Secondly, about petrol vapours. What is petrol's boiling point at which petrol liquid turns into vapour? It can't be so low e.g. 20-50 degrees celcius (normal "hot day" temperature), can it? Maybe someone with chemical background can help to clarify this.

achee
11-09-2007, 06:35 PM
Of late, the petrol I am using (since the last 4 fillings) had given me the mileage I was desperately looking for. No need la all this tips. My full tank gives me more than 480km compared to <400km previuosly.

If you want to know, you can PM me. Can't reveal here or I will be savoured by bananas.

iml109
11-09-2007, 06:43 PM
I think u can go to ask the petrol station operators.

As far as I know (fr my cousin who operates one) they need to wash off any spilled petrols as they are highly flammable (even in normal sunlight) ranging fr the lowest (kerosene?) to highest (those fancy sounding names.. :p )

I helped out before in a petrol station, I do know that they only measure their oil lvls at night. So I do believe that petrol evaporates.

Btw, I thought petrol is in oil category thus makes it expandable?

sinleong
11-09-2007, 10:11 PM
II'm no chemical engineer, but my logic tells me that petrol is a liquid, and liquid (e.g. water) does not physically expand when heated. So does petrol really expand when it's hot? If petrol does not expand, then the theory of refilling petrol during hot day or in the evening doesn't seem to hold ground.

Secondly, about petrol vapours. What is petrol's boiling point at which petrol liquid turns into vapour? It can't be so low e.g. 20-50 degrees celcius (normal "hot day" temperature), can it? Maybe someone with chemical background can help to clarify this.

u dont need to be a chemical engineer.... any form 3 science student can tell you from physics or chemistry lessons that as liquid becomes warmer, their molecules travel faster which causes it to expand. at boiling point, the liquid becomes gas/vapour.

sinleong
11-09-2007, 10:14 PM
Of late, the petrol I am using (since the last 4 fillings) had given me the mileage I was desperately looking for. No need la all this tips. My full tank gives me more than 480km compared to <400km previuosly.

If you want to know, you can PM me. Can't reveal here or I will be savoured by bananas.

you must be using one of those bio-additives which is in the form of liquid or tablet. if you are, it's true you can save on petrol. let me also point out that in countries such as thailand and india, car companies such as toyota will void the car warranty if they find out you use these additives...

pcyeoh
12-09-2007, 01:46 AM
<< How not to lose money at the gas pumps!
> >
> > (1)My line of work is in petroleum pipeline for about 31 years
> > now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for
> > every litter.
> >
> > (2)Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when
> > the ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service
> > stations have
> their
> >storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more
> >dense is the gasoline, when it
> gets
>
warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening,

>>
Next time you want to share tips with us, take this tips from me. Please get rid of all those > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> first. It makes reading irritating. Thank you.

chewie
12-09-2007, 08:04 AM
Next time you want to share tips with us, take this tips from me. Please get rid of all those > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> first. It makes reading irritating. Thank you.

i guess its a cut and paste job..:)

back to the topic... thats y i see so many ppl in the morning and at night at the petrol station lar

gnehkgnep
12-09-2007, 09:11 AM
........Secondly, about petrol vapours. What is petrol's boiling point at which petrol liquid turns into vapour? It can't be so low e.g. 20-50 degrees celcius (normal "hot day" temperature), can it? Maybe someone with chemical background can help to clarify this.

Unleaded gasoline physical and chemical properties
Physical state - liquid
Colour - colourless (may be dyed)
Odour - gasoline like
Density @ 15 deg C - 715 - 780 kg/m3
Flash point (COC) - minus 40 deg C
Boiling point/range - 25-220 deg C

For best advice.....always refer to Product Technical Specialist (petroleum products).......never take-in 100% of what people says......even if they work in petrol station/oil companies/laboratories......as they are not the expert and also most propably get the info from hearsay......

cskok8
12-09-2007, 10:41 AM
The part about filling up in the morning when petrol is more dense is true. During the 80s when F1 rules limit the amount (in liters) of fuel that a car can carry (and no refuelling allowed), the teams used to chill the fuel before putting it into the cars. Also fuel for aircraft is always calculated in kg or lbs and not volume because it changes with the temperature.

For our local situation I am not sure how much you can actually save.

AllUrban
12-09-2007, 11:15 AM
For our local situation I am not sure how much you can actually save.what about your personal situation...petrol vapours are a known carcinogen...so if you slow down the pump you reduce vapours, you get more liquid into your tank, save money (a very minor amount) and reduce the risk of cancer....

Cheers, m

online12793
12-09-2007, 11:41 AM
Next time you want to share tips with us, take this tips from me. Please get rid of all those > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> first. It makes reading irritating. Thank you.

That must be cut and paste from an email.

jericho
12-09-2007, 12:38 PM
For our local situation I am not sure how much you can actually save.

The temperature in our country does vary quite substantially between day and night time. eg. 24-34 degrees. Therefore this tip do apply to us more than these in the 4 seasons countries where the day/night temperature does not vary a lot.

PDL
12-09-2007, 01:20 PM
Some info on trade regulations related to measurement of petrol in Australia on this document : http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/assets/files/volume.pdf

The big question is, how much can be saved by following the tips.

PDL
12-09-2007, 01:25 PM
Read somewhere that for 8 degrees C change in temperature, the volume of petrol changes by 1 %.

firefox
12-09-2007, 02:35 PM
The daily traffic jams are burning our petrol and the petrol buggers are laughing themselves to the bank what's the use of saving petrol in any other way!

AllUrban
12-09-2007, 05:33 PM
The daily traffic jams are burning our petrol and the petrol buggers are laughing themselves to the bank what's the use of saving petrol in any other way!hahahah buy a toyota prius

In the Toyota hybrid system, the electric engine provides most of the power for start up, low-speed driving, and stop-and-go traffic....

regenerative brakes will recharge the battery whenever the car slows down...

and the petrol engine shuts off when the car is stopped, or the power is not needed....and comes back instantly when you start again :cool:

In the future, they will probably put electric motors directly into the wheels, so you can recharge the batteries even as you take your foot off the accelerator :eek: and the petrol engine will run the electric motor, instead of the other way around :D

Cheers, m

AllUrban
12-09-2007, 05:36 PM
The daily traffic jams are burning our petrol and the petrol buggers are laughing themselves to the bank what's the use of saving petrol in any other way!hahahah buy a toyota prius hybrid

In the Toyota hybrid system, the electric engine provides most of the power for start up, low-speed driving, and stop-and-go traffic....petrol engine does not operate

For the Honda Civic hybrid, in contrast, the petrol engine does most of the basic work and the electric motor assists.

for both cars, regenerative brakes will recharge the battery whenever the car slows down...

and the engines in both cars shut off when the car is stopped, or the power is not needed....and comes back instantly when you start again :cool:

In the future, they will probably put electric motors directly into the wheels, so you can recharge the batteries even as you take your foot off the accelerator :eek: and the petrol engine will run the electric motor, instead of the other way around :D

Cheers, m

cskok8
12-09-2007, 09:12 PM
Will the air-cond be running on the battery? If not how to survive a stand-still jam. I asked the Honda salesman, not very sure.

kwchang
13-09-2007, 12:18 AM
In the future, they will probably put electric motors directly into the wheels, so you can recharge the batteries even as you take your foot off the accelerator :eek: and the petrol engine will run the electric motor, instead of the other way aroundI believe the Toyota hybrid is doing just that! I got an advert from Toyota today in the form of an info piece and it said just that.

orangusj
13-09-2007, 07:50 AM
I receive this email today and like to share with all of you. Don't know how reliable it is, but makes sense, and hopefully ringgit and sen!! :D

<< How not to lose money at the gas pumps!
> >
> > (1)My line of work is in petroleum pipeline for about 31 years
> > now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for
> > every litter.
> >
> > (2)Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when
> > the ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service
> > stations have
> their
> >storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more
> >dense is the gasoline, when it
> gets
>
warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening,

> your 1-gal is not exactly 1-gal.
> >
> > (3)If there is a gasoline truck bringing loads at the time when you
> > have to buy gas do not fill up,
> most likely the gasoline has been stirred up when the gas is
> delivered, and you might get some of the dirt that settled at the
> bottom.
> >
> > (4)When you're filling up do not squeeze the
> trigger
> > of the nozzle to a fast mode. If you look up you will see that the
> > trigger has three (3) stages:
> > lo, mid, and hi, with slow mode you should be pumping on low speed,
> > thereby minimizing the
> vapors
> that were created while you are pumping.
> >
> >If you are pumping on fast rates, some of the
> liquid
> >that goes to your tank become vapors; those vapors were being sucked

> >up back to the underground tank
> so
> that you're getting less worth of your money.
>
> > (5)One of the most important tip is to fill up
> when
> >your gas tank is half full or half empty. The
> reason
> for this is, the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying

> it's empty space, remember gasoline evaporates faster than you think.
>
> > Hope this will help you guys with your pump cost. >>
Thanks for sharing :)

AllUrban
13-09-2007, 11:40 AM
Will the air-cond be running on the battery? If not how to survive a stand-still jam. I asked the Honda salesman, not very sure.
If the air conditioning is on, this is a heavy demand....so the petrol engine will still be running

this means that if the air con is on and the car stops, the toyota will leave the petrol engine running (lower energy load) to supply extra power, and the honda will still be running the petrol engine....

Chang, as far as I know, Toyota is currently using regenerative braking to get energy back from the wheels (when braking)...but when the car is under power, both motors are turning the axle, transfering power to the wheels....which still means there is energy lost to friction and heat.

powering the wheels directly, with 4 independent electric motors (1 in each wheel), is way more efficient than using a drive shaft and axles and gears.

lots of companies have made independent electric "wheel-motors" a goal for future cars....

by the way looking forward to seeing more hybrid cars in Malaysia. I already have a few economics students studying the economics of the hybrid car for their final project...

Cheers, m

kress
13-09-2007, 11:55 AM
hmmmm... was reading about on these hybrid cars.... economically speaking, you might not save much, because the technology is proprietary.. so if anything goes wrong you have to go back toyota... and from what i read from owners in the us... the parts and service ain't cheap

secondly, there was a paper researching hybrid cars for long haul journeys.. and they found that... it actually consumed more petrol as the petrol engine is not powerful enough to lug the car around (long haul = less braking = less regenerative energy = less electric motor).. not sure where i dumped the paper... will see if i can get it back...

Choon1980
13-09-2007, 12:23 PM
by the way looking forward to seeing more hybrid cars in Malaysia. I already have a few economics students studying the economics of the hybrid car for their final project...


I'm not. Including construction of the car, a Prius deals out more environmental damage than a regular car.

Heck, it doles out more damage than a Hummer. (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188)

AllUrban
13-09-2007, 02:15 PM
I'm not. Including construction of the car, a Prius deals out more environmental damage than a regular car.

Heck, it doles out more damage than a Hummer. (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188)fair enough...but at the same time, it does spread the message (albeit, in the wrong way) that oil supplies are dwindling and people's lifestyle choices affect demand and supply....

for most people today the environmental focus is on climate change rather than pollution...which is kind of sad...I remember when I was in school the focus was on acid rain....and protecting the environment as a whole.

Cheers, m

Good Guy
13-09-2007, 10:53 PM
Talking about petrol, I wonder whether all the petrol brands are the same?

Choon1980
14-09-2007, 12:50 AM
people's lifestyle choices affect demand and supply....

Only to a small degree. Our civilization is so reliant on oil that almost everything we consume or use has either been made by oil or something that runs on oil. Managing to run your own petroleum-free transport won't change the escalating price of fossil fuels.

So lets say Joe Public manages to get a car that runs on water, or maybe he just foots it to work, play and back. He'll still have to take into account that:

food is expensive because pesticides and fertilizers are made from oil.
food is expensive because they are either flown in from some far away country or at best, driven by truck from some other state, which relies on oil.
food is expensive because of land competition with biofuels.

That's just for food. Throw in everything else that we do in our lives, and you can see that cheap fuel isn't going to solve our problems. Population control and a change to a more agrarian form (among other things) is going to be needed in order to make ANY sort of future possible for us. But that requires a paradigm shift in the way we think, which ain't gonna happen anytime soon.


for most people today the environmental focus is on climate change rather than pollution...which is kind of sad...I remember when I was in school the focus was on acid rain....and protecting the environment as a whole.


Sorry to say this, but we're screwed. It's been human tendency to do things when it's far too late and any chance for mitigation should have been taken 50 years back. We can already see the first stages of climate change right here whenever we go through yet another violent thunderstorm. This won't change even if we stop all economic activity worldwide by tomorrow, since we're actually paying for environmental damage several decades in the past.

Which reminds me, I need to grab more popcorn. The last disaster reality show on Planet Earth should be an interesting one.

wombat
14-09-2007, 07:05 AM
oil is dwindling. it will stop flowing one day, maybe even within our lifetime (as what a nuclear physicist told us). unless of course new sources of petrol is found. when there is no more petrol, we will have no choice but to go back to riding bicyle. read "small is beautiful" by schumacher.



Only to a small degree. Our civilization is so reliant on oil that almost everything we consume or use has either been made by oil or something that runs on oil. Managing to run your own petroleum-free transport won't change the escalating price of fossil fuels.

So lets say Joe Public manages to get a car that runs on water, or maybe he just foots it to work, play and back. He'll still have to take into account that:

food is expensive because pesticides and fertilizers are made from oil.
food is expensive because they are either flown in from some far away country or at best, driven by truck from some other state, which relies on oil.
food is expensive because of land competition with biofuels.

That's just for food. Throw in everything else that we do in our lives, and you can see that cheap fuel isn't going to solve our problems. Population control and a change to a more agrarian form (among other things) is going to be needed in order to make ANY sort of future possible for us. But that requires a paradigm shift in the way we think, which ain't gonna happen anytime soon.



Sorry to say this, but we're screwed. It's been human tendency to do things when it's far too late and any chance for mitigation should have been taken 50 years back. We can already see the first stages of climate change right here whenever we go through yet another violent thunderstorm. This won't change even if we stop all economic activity worldwide by tomorrow, since we're actually paying for environmental damage several decades in the past.

Which reminds me, I need to grab more popcorn. The last disaster reality show on Planet Earth should be an interesting one.

Choon1980
14-09-2007, 11:08 AM
oil is dwindling. it will stop flowing one day, maybe even within our lifetime (as what a nuclear physicist told us). unless of course new sources of petrol is found. when there is no more petrol, we will have no choice but to go back to riding bicyle. read "small is beautiful" by schumacher.
We don't even have to wait that long. All it takes is for demand > supply.

AllUrban
14-09-2007, 11:28 AM
We don't even have to wait that long. All it takes is for demand > supply.2010...the year we (in malaysia) cannot afford to make contact... :p because driving will cost too much.....

Cheers, m

BMW9700
26-09-2007, 08:44 PM
just wondering, when you pay for petrol, are we also paying for what remains in the hose? if we park the car close to the pump and the hose not extended, there is quite a bit of petrol remaining in the hose...any thoughts?

kwchang
26-09-2007, 11:13 PM
oil is dwindling. it will stop flowing one day,...
Maybe not - read somewhere that there is a hypothesis that there are probably bacteria in the ground that generates petrol out of carbon matter (like peat) ... basically because the scientists could not figure out how compression forces on organic matter through the ages could create sufficient crude oil that affords the mining of millions of barrels of oil today.

Furthermore, when oil dries up in the Middle East, Canada will be the next oil source because they have immense deposits of oil-sand which are too expensive to extract today.

Think about that ... it isn't going to be the scenario where one fine day the oil tap will shut off

Choon1980
27-09-2007, 04:31 AM
Maybe not - read somewhere that there is a hypothesis that there are probably bacteria in the ground that generates petrol out of carbon matter (like peat) ... basically because the scientists could not figure out how compression forces on organic matter through the ages could create sufficient crude oil that affords the mining of millions of barrels of oil today.
Abiotic oil is a myth. The Earth does not contain a nice oily nouget in the center.

Even if this bacteria works, it's not working fast enough to offset depletion, and it's not stopping peak oil. Every country which has peaked in oil production has NEVER recovered.


Furthermore, when oil dries up in the Middle East, Canada will be the next oil source because they have immense deposits of oil-sand which are too expensive to extract today.
Oil will never "dry up". There's just only going to be a part of it we'll never reach. That's why we have terms like proven, probable and possible reserves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves).

And extracting oil from oil-sands will remain expensive for a lot of time. It's not as easy and drilling a hole in the ground and letting the stuff flow out. And even if it is cheap in terms of $$$, it'll hardly be as cheap as crude in terms of energy/environment. And can we ramp up production of oil in Canada in time? Will there be enough to replace what we've lost AND make up for increased global demand?

Go to Life After The Oil Crash (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Index.html) and search for "oil sands".

Think about that ... it isn't going to be the scenario where one fine day the oil tap will shut off
No, it's always been when demand > supply.

2010 is the year to watch for Malaysia. Not because we'll become a net importer of oil, but because we can only TRY to become a net importer. World oil exports have been projected to drop 50% in the next five years.

Choon1980
27-09-2007, 05:06 AM
Forgot to add. We DO know how crude oil is formed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum