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bugbear
24-06-2007, 03:32 AM
In conjunction with the thread should prostitution be legalized, I am starting a thread about corruption and bribery. Maybe we can debate and then put it to the vote? I am just curious to see what are the pros and cons on this subject. :D

I voted no. :D

hhtee
24-06-2007, 09:07 AM
HAHA.... dude, it's pretty obvious right (the answer) ?

HAHA :D

I will vote NO later.

If Corruption and Bribery is legalised, then it's like saying and doing the contradictings, "HEY let's legalise UNFAIR PRACTICES AS FAIR". It's like saying, "HEY, let's legalise KILLING AS RIGHTS OF MALAYSIAN".

P/S : I will not bribe my friends to vote NO :D

burntan
24-06-2007, 10:41 AM
Actually there are still room for debat.... as we can see, corruption and bribery in some form are widely acceptable in our daily life.

We used to pay more to...
- get a better seat in the concert
- get a better service and food in restaurant
- get a better quality cloth and shoe
- get a better car registration number
- get a priority service in bank
- get a better parking place
- etc...

So, when come to getting a license, getting a tender/contract, people are used to pay more to get faster and better service :)

Some bribery are actually in form of tips (like those car jockey) are widely acceptable as well, you pay more you get better service next time :)

bugbear
24-06-2007, 10:52 AM
Alright, burntan has spoken for bribery in certain form. Orchi what do you think buddy. So far it has been a resounding 100% nays vote.

I must say some of our police and lower category workers are under paid. Do you think it is right for them to demand some form of bribe to make do? After all don't we pity their wife and children who are in need?

bugbear
24-06-2007, 10:53 AM
HAHA.... dude, it's pretty obvious right (the answer) ?

HAHA :D

I will vote NO later.

If Corruption and Bribery is legalised, then it's like saying and doing the contradictings, "HEY let's legalise UNFAIR PRACTICES AS FAIR". It's like saying, "HEY, let's legalise KILLING AS RIGHTS OF MALAYSIAN".

P/S : I will not bribe my friends to vote NO :D
Yes hhtee you said it right. Let me pose you a question, how about prostitution? :D

orchipalar
24-06-2007, 11:07 AM
In conjunction with the thread should prostitution be legalized, I am starting a thread about corruption and bribery. Maybe we can debate and then put it to the vote? I am just curious to see what are the pros and cons on this subject. :D

I voted no. :DErr buddy...Orchi is surprised that you voted "No"...n only mentioned corruption n bribery...

What happened to your previous argument..."That is why I liken legalizing prostitution just the same as legalizing stealing...mugging...killing...pedophile...bestial ity...etc...etc.? :confused:

Don't you want to know how others feel about those too...? :confused:

FineTuned
24-06-2007, 12:19 PM
burntan has given some fine examples. I will add that bribery is widely practiced by marketing ppl. Giving free gifts, bonus points, cash vouchers, etc for choosing a particular company's products or services is legalised bribery.

The issue should not be about the legality of prostitution, corruption and bribery, etc. It is about a particular society's acceptance of the form it takes. This is a constantly shifting position in a free society, and it is not tolerable to adduce a right or wrong to it based on the moral stance of just a few individuals.

bugbear, 2 votes make a 100% resounding nays vote? :D Pityful lah.

FineTuned
24-06-2007, 12:53 PM
bugbear, 2 votes make a 100% resounding nays vote? :D Pityful lah.
Sorry, my bad. (Just noticed the updated voting) 10 votes is impressive.

lbn
24-06-2007, 12:56 PM
I feel that the topic needs to be rephrased. :confused:

bugbear
24-06-2007, 02:59 PM
How so Ibn? I think it is pretty clear that there are all form of corruption in the world just as pointed out by FineTuned. Of course it goes down to who is accepting and in what form. Does excepting money more worse than say excepting services in return acceptable?

coleslaw
24-06-2007, 04:37 PM
don't we pity their wife and children who are in need?
my daughter says she's in need of a new handphone..and i said do well in your exams and we talk..
is this acceptable? or..
am i corrupted and guilty of offering a bribe...

Raikonen
24-06-2007, 04:50 PM
:confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

firefox
24-06-2007, 04:57 PM
Is this a joke or what?

GreenBug
24-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Actually there are still room for debat.... as we can see, corruption and bribery in some form are widely acceptable in our daily life.

We used to pay more to...
- get a better seat in the concert
- get a better service and food in restaurant
- get a better quality cloth and shoe
- get a better car registration number
- get a priority service in bank
- get a better parking place
- etc...

So, when come to getting a license, getting a tender/contract, people are used to pay more to get faster and better service :)

Some bribery are actually in form of tips (like those car jockey) are widely acceptable as well, you pay more you get better service next time :)

What Burntan mentioned here is not corruption per se but rather what economists termed as price differentiation, product segmentation or differential pricing.

We can look at it the other way - for e.g. some dentists charge a bundle for a crowning when a Datin walks in and reduced the charges for an old lady from the poorer family.

These things are not corruption. They are merely differentiated pricing. You want to fly First Class and have lobster thermidor for your inflight meals, pay for it. But you also have a choice not to pay, then you sit in the Business Class or there is another choice i.e. the Economy Class. But you still reach your destination. So these are not corruption per se.

Corruption is when one has no choice but to pay to get something you cannot get like a business tender, or get away from trouble like an illegal house extension, or to escape arrests like an arrested prostitute.

We are all mixed up here. Like what Firefox said, "Is this a Joke?" I think so. :eek:

KelvC
24-06-2007, 08:49 PM
I would like to vote Yes to be a sarcastic "Duh" but don't want to ruin the statistic here.

Cheers.

hhtee
25-06-2007, 12:43 AM
my daughter says she's in need of a new handphone..and i said do well in your exams and we talk..
is this acceptable? or..
am i corrupted and guilty of offering a bribe...
closelaw, your daughter didn't ask for Kentuchy Fried Chicken with Coleslaw did she ? :D

anyways, I was reading this and found it quite interesting: -


http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:PJelw4uOU5gJ:vlib.unitarklj1.edu.my/staff-publications/datuk/Nst2nov96.PDF+definition+of+bribery&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=my

The Holy Prophet had also been reported to have said, "If you get from thepeople because of your position is bribery. Would you get it if you are not holdingthat position, or if you stay in your father's house?"

isarahim
25-06-2007, 07:58 AM
Actually there are still room for debat.... as we can see, corruption and bribery in some form are widely acceptable in our daily life.
Some bribery are actually in form of tips (like those car jockey) are widely acceptable as well, you pay more you get better service next time
Wow, no wonder you're an UMNO diehard....this explains it all....that your sense of right and wrong has blurred to this extent.

I really hope that FineTuned chiming in to this delirium doesn't mean that Malaysians at large have been blurified to the point of not being able to differ between (1.) paying a service provider for better service (or 'price differentiation' to use Greenbug's much better term for it) and (2.) paying someone for abusing his/her position.

No, Burntan and FineTuned, what you are talking about is NOT corruption.

Corruption is about paying someone clandestinely to give you an unfair advantage or service by abusing their position, i.e. acting contrary to what their job role is. The advantage or service provided might be providing unfair advantage in a competitive situation, may it be tenders or match-fixing, or it might be evading or circumventing laws and regulations.

Firefox and Greenbug, hmmm, no I actually think that Burntan was dead serious.... but ok I'll leave for him to clarify whether or not he was joking....haha

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 09:12 AM
I really hope that FineTuned chiming in to this delirium...........
isarahim, thank you for pointing out my state of constant delirium. One of these days I should stop drinking so much coffee mixed with that stuff from my homemade still.


No, Burntan and FineTuned, what you are talking about is NOT corruption.
Curruption is about paying someone clandestinely to give you an unfair advantage or service by abusing their position, i.e. acting contrary to what their job role is.
If the practice is done openly instead of clandestinely, you don't call it corruption anymore, right? To all intends and purposes it's the same act, but we make one okay, and the other bad (because it's done behind the scene). That is what I meant when I say that corruption and bribery is already legalised - in certain forms.

Let's take a look at this simplified example.
In a tender for a product, I first offer to the customer, my basic product A @ RM1000 with no frills.
My competitor offers the same basic product A, plus a free overseas trip with expenses paid (he calls it a training course) for RM2000.
Is the customer indulging in corruption if he chooses my competitor's offer?
If I then go back to the customer, and tell him I will match my competitor's offer (plus RM200 `pocket money' for the trip, undeclared) also for RM2000, does it now become bribery?

My view is that we humans are very good at covering up borderline illegal activities by dressing them up with terms like `price differentiation', `value added offer' etc, etc.
Some of you see everything in Black and White. It's either this or that.
Unfortunately, I see things in Shades of Grey. My world is this, that and lots of maybes in between. Call me blurred if you want, isarahim. :D

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 09:37 AM
Let's take a look at this simplified example.
In a tender for a product, I first offer to the customer, my basic product A @ RM1000 with no frills.
My competitor offers the same basic product A, plus a free overseas trip with expenses paid (he calls it a training course) for RM2000.
Is the customer indulging in corruption if he chooses my competitor's offer?
If I then go back to the customer, and tell him I will match my competitor's offer (plus RM200 `pocket money' for the trip, undeclared) also for RM2000, does it now become bribery?


No. this is capitalism and market forces at work.

Corruption is if you used sub-standard material to cut corners in making your product, bribed/coerced the QA department to overlook this and cheat the customers.

Bribery is if the customer gives you a lavish dinner in order to get you to give him your product for free.

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 10:08 AM
Bribery is if the customer gives you a lavish dinner in order to get you to give him your product for free.
He gets my product for the price of a dinner? That's barter trade.


Corruption is if you used sub-standard material to cut corners in making your product, bribed/coerced the QA department to overlook this and cheat the customers.
No argument here, this is a pretty clearcut case since you have defined the key parameters for a corruption case (Substandard+bribed+cheat).
Would it still be corruption if I used standard quality material, but bribed the award panel to choose my product instead of the competitors'?

xaviers
25-06-2007, 10:15 AM
I thought is was currently legal ... no ka...? or issit?

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 11:20 AM
He gets my product for the price of a dinner? That's barter trade.


If you = company, I can agree it is possible. If you're just part of a company with no authoritive say on how the trade is to be done, it's bribery.



No argument here, this is a pretty clearcut case since you have defined the key parameters for a corruption case (Substandard+bribed+cheat).
Would it still be corruption if I used standard quality material, but bribed the award panel to choose my product instead of the competitors'?
Of course. This is another obvious example of corruption/bribery.

burntan
25-06-2007, 11:42 AM
One fine example of legalised bribery is the auction/selling of car registration number..... this registration suppose to be first come first serve and all depend on your luck which number you can get (this was what happened in early era), then come the new policy which allow JPJ to open tender certain "hot" number and charge for priority number selection.

hhtee
25-06-2007, 12:03 PM
In today's news, http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/6/25/nation/18122087&sec=nation , 3 policemen plus a chief inspector were arrested for collecting “protection money” from lorry drivers.

If bribery were legal, then these policement would not have been arrested and lorry drivers can carry on with "whatever they want to do"

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 01:48 PM
If you're just part of a company with no authoritive say on how the trade is to be done, it's bribery.
If I have no authority to do the deal, why would anyone give me a lavish dinner? I wouldn't be in a position to give the goods away, dinner or not.
If I just gave the goods away without getting permission, that would be fraud or CBT.

And having said that, is it wrong for someone to give me a dinner just because he likes me (of course, one day he might need a favour from me....)?


Of course. This is another obvious example of corruption/bribery.

How about if I gave a good product, and threw in a free dinner anyway to the award panel?

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 02:02 PM
......3 policemen plus a chief inspector were arrested for collecting “protection money” from lorry drivers.
Technically, that's extortion, not bribery.

Since you brought up this incidence, I remember how my company used to pay the local police department `a token sum' just to have the patrol car escort our bimonthly visit to the bank to withdraw salaries for the workers. Is this not `protection money'? It was done openly.
But I must admit that it is not the same service. One is for the purpose of avoiding punishment, whereas in my case, to keep the bad hats away.

Eastern Citizen
25-06-2007, 02:19 PM
Actually, the title of the thread is quite a simple issue. I think that in the first place, nearly all of us would agree that bribery and corruption is bad, right? However, there are many here also who will ask questions like what if a person were to take you out to a lavish dinner in the hope of winning a contract? I guess what we really need to do is to define what exactly constitutes bribery and corruption. That way, we will be clear on the definitions. After all, it is a pretty fine line between bribery and incentivising.

On the issue of paying the local police department to carry out certain services, I am pretty sure that the police department can be "hired" for certain occasions, eg. for crowd control purposes. For example, I believe that should you require certain services, you have to apply tthrough the OCPD and you would be charged accordingly by the "man hour".

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 02:39 PM
If I have no authority to do the deal, why would anyone give me a lavish dinner? I wouldn't be in a position to give the goods away, dinner or not.
If I just gave the goods away without getting permission, that would be fraud or CBT.

And having said that, is it wrong for someone to give me a dinner just because he likes me (of course, one day he might need a favour from me....)?

Because they want your product for less than it's stated value. If free dinner doesn't work (strange, since we Malaysians *just* *love* *food*), replace it with your favourite bribe.

Bribes are made so that people who aren't in a position to do something, would do them. It's the bribe that makes it worthwhile.

Fraud and CBT IS part of corruption. Let's not grasp at straws here.


How about if I gave a good product, and threw in a free dinner anyway to the award panel?

You can do what you want with the award panel, but if it's with the intent of them giving you a unfair edge against the competition, it's corruption and bribery. period.

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 02:40 PM
.....I guess what we really need to do is to define what exactly constitutes bribery and corruption. That way, we will be clear on the definitions. After all, it is a pretty fine line between bribery and incentivising.

Eastern Citizen has caught on to the crux of the matter here. Nobody in his/her right mind would want to legalise something obviously wrong and a hindrance to society. But defining or drawing the line between `price differentiation' and `outright bribery' is not so clearcut.

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 02:49 PM
Eastern Citizen has caught on to the crux of the matter here. Nobody in his/her right mind would want to legalise something obviously wrong and a hindrance to society. But defining or drawing the line between `price differentiation' and `outright bribery' is not so clearcut.

I do agree that it's not clearcut in many cases, but come on, to say that giving a tip is bribery is a bit too much, ain't it? (and yes, I know it's burntan who said that)

Auctions of car registration numbers is a better example of "legalised" bribery, methinks.

hhtee
25-06-2007, 02:50 PM
Technically, that's extortion, not bribery.

Since you brought up this incidence, I remember how my company used to pay the local police department `a token sum' just to have the patrol car escort our bimonthly visit to the bank to withdraw salaries for the workers. Is this not `protection money'? It was done openly.
But I must admit that it is not the same service. One is for the purpose of avoiding punishment, whereas in my case, to keep the bad hats away.

DOH!
Yes you are correct. It's extortion. It's a different issue.

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 02:50 PM
Fraud and CBT IS part of corruption. Let's not grasp at straws here.

You can do what you want with the award panel, but if it's with the intent of them giving you a unfair edge against the competition, it's corruption and bribery. period.
Now tell me, if a company offers me free gifts and cash vouchers, so that I choose their product instead of the competitors', in your opinion, is that bribery and corruption?

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 03:00 PM
Now tell me, if a company offers me free gifts and cash vouchers, so that I choose their product instead of the competitors', in your opinion, is that bribery and corruption?
Good point. But no.

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 03:04 PM
Good point. But no.
So where was the line crossed?

Choon1980
25-06-2007, 03:11 PM
So where was the line crossed?

Between conflict of interest towards obligational duties to the public and....pretty much everything else.

Look, I know they sound the same. I have my grouses against this as well, once again, mostly pertaining to unclear lines between what is ethical or not. After some reading, apparently some societies DO find tips to be illegal and/or unethical, which doesn't make drawing the line any easier.

isarahim
25-06-2007, 05:00 PM
then come the new policy which allow JPJ to open tender certain "hot" number and charge for priority number selection.
That's not bribery at all. That's open tender.

And that there are so many Malaysians that are prepared to pay for vanity plates which only serve to make them more visible in traffic is beyond reason.....personally I'd rather go for regnumbers which are as difficult as possible to remember....

isarahim
25-06-2007, 05:03 PM
If the practice is done openly instead of clandestinely, you don't call it corruption anymore, right?
The key word is not 'clandestinely'. They key words are 'abusing position'.

bugbear
25-06-2007, 08:00 PM
I think we can all agree here that bribery and corruption comes in many form and it is increasingly getting harder to differentiate what is right from the wrong practices. Therefore it is not too hard to work the street to gain certain advantage to your business. I mean which businessman has never tried a little craftiness to gain an advantage nowaday? :D

My hope is that we as a society remain sane and do the right thing when needed and avoid doing thing the easy way when faced with certain problems the solution which is a bit dubious.

Again, the thin line seperating what constitute legal business and down right unethical manners can be blurry. Ultimately where one choose to stand depend on ones' values and morality. In this instances, I am glad to note that the majority choose No. :D

isarahim
25-06-2007, 08:52 PM
I think we can all agree here that bribery and corruption comes in many form and it is increasingly getting harder to differentiate what is right from the wrong practices.
Actually I disagree. It's not difficult at all.

FineTuned
25-06-2007, 09:04 PM
It's not difficult at all.
isarahim, the ACA needs you!

kwchang
26-06-2007, 12:08 AM
There is no way to differentiate good or bad intentions when someone offers you a present when your relationship is obviously purely business. If the other party is a friend, they would not offer a gift in the first place. If a gift is offered during a business consultation, it is a bribe. No two ways about it. So how to get out of this sticky situation?

As an example of how I get out of that situation....
I get to meet with complete strangers when I was put in charge of a project. Some service providers got wind of it and request to see me to show me what solutions they have. One of them actually brought an expensive chocolate cake and offered it to me as a token. When I refused, the other party said that it is to sweeten our relationships !! It can be construed as bad manners to refuse the "token" outright and in order not to offend the other party, I "accepted" it but made it clear that I will be giving it to my staff. With that, they know I will not be bringing it home to my family and it will be shared by my staff ... whom they know will not be involved with the decision-making process. Smiles and handshakes and bye-bye. I never saw them again. Passed the cake to the clerical staff who know someone tried to pass me a bribe. I never saw the cake again, didn't even get a taste of it. :)

isarahim
26-06-2007, 12:31 AM
isarahim, the ACA needs you!
But I don't need them.

Teeque
26-06-2007, 03:10 AM
Now tell me, if a company offers me free gifts and cash vouchers, so that I choose their product instead of the competitors', in your opinion, is that bribery and corruption?
No, that is an incentive.

Most of you may hv been confused over what is incentive and what constitutes bribery/corruption. Incentives, tips, or premiums constitutes a price over a choice of an offer/service, not necessarily good or bad, but can be a better choice.
Whereas bribery and corruption constitutes an act to perform an illegal deed/service over a payment, favor or incentive.

So, draw the line there guys...

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 08:47 AM
But I don't need them.
More's the pity. :(

pepsi
26-06-2007, 08:56 AM
isarahim, thank you for pointing out my state of constant delirium. One of these days I should stop drinking so much coffee mixed with that stuff from my homemade still.

If the practice is done openly instead of clandestinely, you don't call it corruption anymore, right? To all intends and purposes it's the same act, but we make one okay, and the other bad (because it's done behind the scene). That is what I meant when I say that corruption and bribery is already legalised - in certain forms.

Let's take a look at this simplified example.
In a tender for a product, I first offer to the customer, my basic product A @ RM1000 with no frills.
My competitor offers the same basic product A, plus a free overseas trip with expenses paid (he calls it a training course) for RM2000.
Is the customer indulging in corruption if he chooses my competitor's offer?
If I then go back to the customer, and tell him I will match my competitor's offer (plus RM200 `pocket money' for the trip, undeclared) also for RM2000, does it now become bribery?

My view is that we humans are very good at covering up borderline illegal activities by dressing them up with terms like `price differentiation', `value added offer' etc, etc.
Some of you see everything in Black and White. It's either this or that.
Unfortunately, I see things in Shades of Grey. My world is this, that and lots of maybes in between. Call me blurred if you want, isarahim. :D
Corruption/ Bribery to me is the end result. If a person provides freebies and his service is excellent, I won't say it's corruption.
It's corruption, when the general good is sacrifice at the expense of one /or few individual(s) are enjoying the benefits . Poor quality work, services and damage to the enviroment are the results of such corruption.

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 09:16 AM
Whereas bribery and corruption constitutes an act to perform an illegal deed/service over a payment, favor or incentive.

That's tautology.
Of course it is corruption if you do something already deemed illegal. But we are trying to define what constitutes an illegal act here in the first place.

Let me bring up another real case.

I used to supply products to a big Hotel chain in the Klang Valley. Every year, I would get a nicely written warning letter from the accounts department not to offer gifts or monetary rewards to any staff for any reason whatever. You would think this is a fine example of a clean, honest business, right?

Now, the story continues. Every year, I would also get a nice letter asking for voluntary donations for their annual dinner lucky draw. Now I know that many of you will think that this is a perfectly okay kind of thing since it is widely practised.

Well, when I stopped donating for the annual dinner, I also stopped getting their orders. You might say the latter is legal, as opposed to the illegal act of directly donating to some persons in the purchasing dept. For me, the result was the same either way. I don't give, I don't get. You can draw the line anywhere you want.

The point being, the same people end up getting the hampers and free gifts, but now it's sanitised.

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 09:27 AM
If a person provides freebies and his service is excellent, I won't say it's corruption.
Take a look at dear Choon1980's POV.




How about if I gave a good product, and threw in a free dinner anyway to the award panel?
You can do what you want with the award panel, but if it's with the intent of them giving you a unfair edge against the competition, it's corruption and bribery. period.

bugbear
26-06-2007, 10:13 AM
For that matter, I once attended an ACA ceramah which stipulate even having a cup of tea with interested party can be construe as accepting a bribe in the truest sense of the word unless you are paying of course. I have many people offering me such "teas" and the difficult thing is that they are also friends. Sometime I simply refuse their offer outright but on festival time, hampers will come pouring in. I do accept them but with a word of caution. I even refuse outright gifts from them sometime. Now what is legal and what is not?

On another note we have the european envoy Dr. Thierry Rommel talking of widespread corruption practices here in Malaysia (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6237328.stm).
Here is just one of the quote. "He said that the policies - once intended as a means of reducing poverty amongst Malays by giving them privileges over Malaysians of Chinese and Indian descent - were now an excuse for "significant protectionism".

Correspondents say some foreign companies have complained that rules forcing them to take on ethnic Malays as business partners open the door to corruption."

I wonder if NEP is a form of legalized corruption? Your opinion please. :D

Choon1980
26-06-2007, 10:46 AM
Take a look at dear Choon1980's POV.
Even better, take a look at isaharim's POV.

abusing position

Here's why it's considered bribery/corruption when it comes to giving stuff to award panels/salesmen but not when it comes to customers.

Award panels and salesmen are bound by certain social responsibilities and obligations to carry out a duty.

Award panels = to judge a product without bias.
Salesmen = sells a certain product according to however the company decides.

Giving them freebies that makes them go against those responsibilities and obligations is conflict of interest. And it's abusing their position.

Customers were never duty-bound or oath-bound to purchase only from a certain person/organization. Once it is made law that we are all required to purchase only SIM cards from DIGI or buy groceries from TESCO, then yes, it's bribery if Maxis or Giant gives us free stuff for going to them. But not until then.

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 12:13 PM
Award panels = to judge a product without bias.
Are we talking about humans or angels here? I have NEVER met a person without bias (must be the miserable company I keep).


Salesmen = sells a certain product according to however the company decides.If a sales person was just required to strictly follow the rules, he'd be no more than an order taker, and you might as well give his job to the cash register clerk.
Many companies don't really dictate how their sales ppl bring in the sales. It is left to the creativity of the salesman. The smart ones know how to bend the rules without breaking them. The less talented ones, however, inadvertently go pass the limit in their desperation to fulfil their quota.

pepsi
26-06-2007, 02:57 PM
Because they want your product for less than it's stated value. If free dinner doesn't work (strange, since we Malaysians *just* *love* *food*), replace it with your favourite bribe.

Bribes are made so that people who aren't in a position to do something, would do them. It's the bribe that makes it worthwhile.

Fraud and CBT IS part of corruption. Let's not grasp at straws here.



You can do what you want with the award panel, but if it's with the intent of them giving you a unfair edge against the competition, it's corruption and bribery. period.
If both product/service is equally good , an edge to a certain extent is good. Not too extravagant and not to specific individuals only is a fair trade.

That is why bidding is legal (properly conducted and not thro"I know u basis only)Offering a project to someone we know is not all together bad, provided you know the person is competent and he can offer a good price. That is why I say, the end result is important. Overall good versus good for "certain people" only is pretty black and white to me.
If our major projects were offered to competent people, who cares to whom it's offered ( I for one, won't) . It's when problem arises, that is when we question, how were these people picked to do the jobs in the first place .
As in the case of the toll issue , the unfair hike on the prices and the traffic jams resulted in the public questioning whether corruption was involved and did someone benefit from it ?

burntan
26-06-2007, 03:06 PM
There is a time where I am in position to help my company to decide which supplier to purchase from. There are many suppliers submited their proposal and offer, but only 2 companies being finalise with good product quality/price ratio. Both suppliers offer similar product with equally good quality, pricing and after sales service. Chosing either one is a win for the company, but the sales person from one of the supplier is a young sexy girl who I wish to see more often in the future, so I choose....

Am I consider corruption or accepting bribery?

isarahim
26-06-2007, 03:12 PM
Well, when I stopped donating for the annual dinner, I also stopped getting their orders. You might say the latter is legal, as opposed to the illegal act of directly donating to some persons in the purchasing dept. For me, the result was the same either way. I don't give, I don't get. You can draw the line anywhere you want.
Just ask yourself the questions:

1. Was donating gifts to the person in the purchasing department above the table? Would it change anything if the senior mgmt team and/or the board of directors of your customer were informed of this gift?

2. Was donating gifts to the lucky draw above the table? Would it change anything if the senior mgmt team and/or the board of directors of your customer were informed of this gift?

Answer this and you have your answer.

isarahim
26-06-2007, 03:17 PM
Chosing either one is a win for the company, but the sales person from one of the supplier is a young sexy girl who I wish to see more often in the future, so I choose.... Am I consider corruption or accepting bribery?
Neither.

Unless you were offered and accepted favours (including sexual) from this girl.

And you need to revisit your conscience. How honest were you in your cost-benefit assessment? Or was it in actual fact what some people call an "ass asset assessment?".... :-).... with the first "ass" being a true double entendre.

Raikonen
26-06-2007, 03:20 PM
There is a time where I am in position to help my company to decide which supplier to purchase from. There are many suppliers submited their proposal and offer, but only 2 companies being finalise with good product quality/price ratio. Both suppliers offer similar product with equally good quality, pricing and after sales service. Chosing either one is a win for the company, but the sales person from one of the supplier is a young sexy girl who I wish to see more often in the future, so I choose....

Am I consider corruption or accepting bribery?

There is nothing wrong with that and not related to corruption. You are just being a lascivious fool.

hhtee
26-06-2007, 03:28 PM
I was reading an article titled Khairy Chronicles ( http://www.malaysia-today.net/GraficsJul2006/Book_KJ_full_english.pdf ) by Malaysia Today.


In this article, on page 9, it says that if a person wants to see Pak Lah, toll collectors will appear and you need to pay at least RM 50,000.

(Obviously in a recent news report, Khairy denied such things. So which of the report is true ???? )

Let's say there is such thing as a "toll collection" system to make appointment to see a VIP, is this considered bribery ?

bugbear
26-06-2007, 04:02 PM
I was reading an article titled Khairy Chronicles ( http://www.malaysia-today.net/GraficsJul2006/Book_KJ_full_english.pdf ) by Malaysia Today.


In this article, on page 9, it says that if a person wants to see Pak Lah, toll collectors will appear and you need to pay at least RM 50,000.

(Obviously in a recent news report, Khairy denied such things. So which of the report is true ???? )

Let's say there is such thing as a "toll collection" system to make appointment to see a VIP, is this considered bribery ?
Question is was Samy Vellu involved in toll collection also? :D :D

Choon1980
26-06-2007, 04:05 PM
Are we talking about humans or angels here? I have NEVER met a person without bias (must be the miserable company I keep).

Yes, and who cares about the justice system, judges and jury? Why bother with them when they're already obviously biases? Let's just bring back the lynch mob.


If a sales person was just required to strictly follow the rules, he'd be no more than an order taker, and you might as well give his job to the cash register clerk.
Many companies don't really dictate how their sales ppl bring in the sales. It is left to the creativity of the salesman. The smart ones know how to bend the rules without breaking them. The less talented ones, however, inadvertently go pass the limit in their desperation to fulfil their quota.

Your point being?

pepsi
26-06-2007, 07:34 PM
There is a time where I am in position to help my company to decide which supplier to purchase from. There are many suppliers submited their proposal and offer, but only 2 companies being finalise with good product quality/price ratio. Both suppliers offer similar product with equally good quality, pricing and after sales service. Chosing either one is a win for the company, but the sales person from one of the supplier is a young sexy girl who I wish to see more often in the future, so I choose....

Am I consider corruption or accepting bribery?
Are u blur or pretending to be blurlah.... :D
It's neither.....lah....
That's not your brains telling you what to do, after weighing the pros and cons. It's your male raging hormones...doing the thinking .... ;)

pepsi
26-06-2007, 07:43 PM
Yes, and who cares about the justice system, judges and jury? Why bother with them when they're already obviously biases? Let's just bring back the lynch mob.



Your point being?
choon1980, do you know how do some sales people work ?
They work like "DOGS" to meet rather high quotas. They have to always smile, be thick skin and "angkat" people just to make that sale, in spite of all the rejection. Rain or sunshine also go out.
People who knows how this people work tends to be a little bit more understanding.
Basic salary low and the rest from commissions received based on sales target.

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 09:16 PM
Answer this and you have your answer.I would assume that the senior management know what's happening since the notices are printed on official letterheads.

As far as I am concerned, I detest the practice of getting suppliers to sponsor lucky draws. The hotel can jolly well set aside some money from its own coffers for this if they want to give their staff some lottery style thrills.

Anyway, I feel no regret in losing the business from this hotel. I still have other equally reputable hotel clients who do not impose this donation condition nor do their purchasing staff ask for personal favours. But they sure know how to pester me for better prices...... :D

FineTuned
26-06-2007, 10:01 PM
Your point being?
That people are human beings. They make mistakes in judgement, they form opinions based on peer pressure, they can be inconsistent in their thinking, brilliant today, and utterly foolish the next. It is easy to say we should be always incorruptible and do our duty, but the flesh is weak when we are in dire straits and maybe even when we are not (oh, don't forget when our hormones go raging - thanks for the reminder, dear pepsi).

So what's the point? I donno anymore lah. I need my coffee......and my Astro....hey, Wimbledon's on LIVE!

isarahim
26-06-2007, 10:59 PM
As far as I am concerned, I detest the practice of getting suppliers to sponsor lucky draws.
I detest it too. I used to do a lot of work with Petronas. They have a lot of them. I used to leave the hall and go for a walk whenever they came to the lucky draw part (*). But whether you and I detest it or not has no relevance in the context of corruption.

Giving a gift to the purchase officer is corruption as the intention can be construed as influencing his decision in your favour. This is further substantiated by the fact that it's clandestine, and the hotel's management would react quite negatively if they knew about it.

Donating to lucky draw is not corruption. This is substantiated by the fact that the donation is done subject to a formal letter from the hotel's management.

(*) Hmm come to think of it I used to leave when they came to the awful amateurish "music" part too....and the trite and tired speech part....and other forms of noise pollution....and the .... ok maybe I wasn't actually there most of the time.... haha

CCY
26-06-2007, 11:31 PM
What do you do when you have those personnel from those regulating bodies coming to you to ask you to advertise in their yearly magazine. Mind you that they would normally dictate the space size for you.
Would you just ignore them knowing pretty well that they are the ones that is handling your files and the sort of difficulties laid down for when the time comes for renewal. I do not need to state the certainty if you do not contribute here. Any businessman would have brace this situation.
Blackmail or corruption ?
Just to name a few ...custom dept , bomba , police ...etc..etc.

Choon1980
26-06-2007, 11:34 PM
choon1980, do you know how do some sales people work ?
They work like "DOGS" to meet rather high quotas. They have to always smile, be thick skin and "angkat" people just to make that sale, in spite of all the rejection. Rain or sunshine also go out.
People who knows how this people work tends to be a little bit more understanding.
Basic salary low and the rest from commissions received based on sales target.

So because of this it's okay for them to receive bribes? If it works like this, we should allow our local cops to get away with bribes themselves.

I understand why bribery can occur understand these set of circumstances, but does this mean that they can get away without even a slap on the wrist?

FineTuned
27-06-2007, 12:36 AM
Giving a gift to the purchase officer is corruption as the intention can be construed as influencing his decision in your favour. This is further substantiated by the fact that it's clandestine, and the hotel's management would react quite negatively if they knew about it.
It is clearcut that it would be corruption if I gave any freebies to the purchasing staff directly.

In this case, however, I believe the senior management decided to do something to reduce that form of corruption. So they decided to ask for `voluntary donations' for lucky draws. This ensures the staff still gets the kickbacks from the suppliers, but it is now above board since it has blessings from the top brass.

To me, there is virtually no difference between the two practices. One is just legalised bribery (which is the point I have been trying to make here), sanitised to make it okay in the eyes of the public, and it seems okay to you too, isarahim.

I do not even want to strain my brain anymore to figure out whether it is corruption or not. It smelt fishy to me, so when they dropped my company as a supplier, I was not exactly drowning in tears. Some of you will think I'm overreacting about a perfectly normal business activity. But I'm happier with my decision, and my bank account hasn't suffered a single bit. I think my competitors are happier too, with me out of the picture..... :D

GreenBug
27-06-2007, 01:11 PM
Should corruption in this country be legalized?

Looking at Eric Chia's acquittal, isn't the answer obvious?

:mad:

bugbear
28-06-2007, 03:33 AM
Should corruption in this country be legalized?

Looking at Eric Chia's acquittal, isn't the answer obvious?

:mad:
In a way Thierry Rommel (is he related to Genenal Erwin Rommel of the famed African Corp?) is right in his assessment on the NEP. Somehow I can't help feeling that NEP is a sugar coated form of legalize corruption. :rolleyes: