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lord
16-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Even after 9 deaths, a couple of molests and millions of other shortcomings, the NS looks like it is here to stay and continue to take lives. The promos in the tele are not helping its cause; they show a couple of boys gropling(i'm sure the lads are enjoying it. I could almost see that smirk on their face) the backside of a girl, all in the name of helping her over an obstacle.

Why are girls forced to wear military-like uniforms and made to undergo military training more suited for boys?

Why are non-bumi halal food served in training camps? Is this a malay familiarisation programme?

What is the point of having target shooting practises? And please stop ladies with low mentality from answering questions like this one. It insults ones intelligence when one of them say that target shooting is good for youths so that they won't get into bad activities. I AM NOT A DUMB A$$!!

And why is a cry-baby chosen as the chairman of the council/programme/ or whatever? I am still lost when it comes to his real job function. And I truly believe he needs to attend the training himself to make him a tougher person than the cry-baby he is.

I have decided that I AM NOT GOING TO SEND MY KIDS, all 3 of them as sitting ducks for this guys to molest and kill and then later pay RM50,000. I am not willing to take that chance. My girls are brought up to be lady like and it's against my religion to allow creatures from other gender to touch them, get it!!

Back to the reason why I started this thread. Can any of you suggest a way for this national disaster to end? I believe I'm doing something noble, should I suceed in disbanding this waste of tax-payers money!!! Will a signature rally help since the electorates are illiterates!!

Teeque
16-04-2007, 07:23 PM
lord, it will take more than a signature campaign to end one man's neurotic grand scheme to bring the future generations under his control and to follow one dominant races' ways and policies...

sulynx
16-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Why are girls forced to wear military-like uniforms and made to undergo military training more suited for boys?

What is the point of having target shooting practises? And please stop ladies with low mentality from answering questions like this one.

I have decided that I AM NOT GOING TO SEND MY KIDS, all 3 of them as sitting ducks for this guys to molest and kill and then later pay RM50,000. I am not willing to take that chance. My girls are brought up to be lady like and it's against my religion to allow creatures from other gender to touch them, get it!!

i understand ns is an issue you're passionate about because of your daughters' possible involvement in it, but you sound unfortunately sexist in your stand about ns. is this said in the heat of the moment, or is that how you truly feel about women?

i hope you won't be defensive and bite my head off for this.

Raikonen
16-04-2007, 08:43 PM
Work harder and send your kids overseas. Dun let them back to bolehland. It is not worth staying on in here if you are not a bumiputera.

Saruman
16-04-2007, 09:07 PM
My girls are brought up to be lady like and it's against my religion to allow creatures from other gender to touch them, get it!!

This would have worked in the days of our parents when girls were kept at home and not allowed to go out alone.

A better approach would be to teach our girls to cope with the situations that they will, like it or not, inevitably face when they go to college or work, let alone NS.

And in case you are wondering, yes, I too have girls and share your deepest concerns.

Teeque
17-04-2007, 01:48 AM
oh yes, it was also quoted in the press recently, that a parent was willing to pay the rm3000 fine rather than send his kid to NS...

USJ27Resident
17-04-2007, 02:03 AM
oh yes, it was also quoted in the press recently, that a parent was willing to pay the rm3000 fine rather than send his kid to NS...

I wonder how many more parents have been willing to pay that "fine" to have their kids NOT going through this NS crap... I WOULD! I am sure sooner or later there will be someone realising that making parent pay a heftier fines would be a better/easier way to make a buck that supplying all the lousy crap to all these NS centres...

I also wonder how many ADUNs, MPs and their TIMBALANs and Political Secs have had their kids selected and sent for this NS scheme too... so far?huh??? :rolleyes:

Choon1980
17-04-2007, 08:57 AM
I thought that kids would still have to go through NS even if a fine was levied?

umadavid
17-04-2007, 09:14 AM
Hey, if someone wants to start the signature campaign..I'll sign it!

I'm sure what lord said was not against all women but aimed at a one particular hoity-toity one rumoured to have slapped someone close to her. ;)

Before all the reported deaths, rape and bias food leanings, I was keen in sending my daughter for NS and she was also very keen in going...now I have changed my mind! I didn't nurture her in the hope that she will be one day be treated like s@#* and made to do push ups that may break her back either. :eek:

anitamoh
17-04-2007, 11:36 AM
Hey, if someone wants to start the signature campaign..I'll sign it!

I'm sure what lord said was not against all women but aimed at a one particular hoity-toity one rumoured to have slapped someone close to her. ;)

Before all the reported deaths, rape and bias food leanings, I was keen in sending my daughter for NS and she was also very keen in going...now I have changed my mind! I didn't nurture her in the hope that she will be one day be treated like s@#* and made to do push ups that may break her back either. :eek:

I'll sign it too. Just to dreadful/scary/worrisome/etcc to think about sending my children to NS. I have 2 boys and 1 girl in primary school but I cant help to start worrying. Me too, would do anything I could afford to avoid them going. And, I treat my girl like princess, its my right and my responsiblity to ensure her safety.

Rocky19
17-04-2007, 11:59 AM
the only way this will stop if some VIP children dies during the NS but then VIP children will not be enrolled into NS in the first place.

lord
17-04-2007, 01:00 PM
I thank you guys for the support. RESPECT!!!

And for that dude who said I am sexist, here's news, I'M NOT!! I think women are a capable lot and yes, they have evolved to great heights compared to the years of yore. All I meant in mt first posting was, what is the rational behind having girls in military-like uniforms and and drilling them with military training?! Which part of that training is building their ability to mingle with the other races? And do these ppl in NS council know that such a training can cause serious damage to their biological built that it may cause complications later when they want to bear a child?!! I'm serious, folks!! Do they know of such things or has it been thought out. This is the reason why other countries with mandatory NS DO NOT accept girls into their training. Not becos women folk lack in anything and the gormen is sexist.

I didn't know abt the fine thingy. BUt yes, I will gladly pay the fine than risk getting one of mine MURDERED!!!! I think that is a better term for that, don't you?! And from what I read abt a boy who had his asthma attack, the treatment towards non-bumis are questionable. So, if your kulit-fication says you are not a bumi, watch out, kid. They are coming for you!!!!!!!! :cool:

anitamoh
17-04-2007, 02:20 PM
I thank you guys for the support. RESPECT!!!

And for that dude who said I am sexist, here's news, I'M NOT!! I think women are a capable lot and yes, they have evolved to great heights compared to the years of yore. All I meant in mt first posting was, what is the rational behind having girls in military-like uniforms and and drilling them with military training?! Which part of that training is building their ability to mingle with the other races? And do these ppl in NS council know that such a training can cause serious damage to their biological built that it may cause complications later when they want to bear a child?!! I'm serious, folks!! Do they know of such things or has it been thought out. This is the reason why other countries with mandatory NS DO NOT accept girls into their training. Not becos women folk lack in anything and the gormen is sexist.

:


Precisely, eventho I am not too soft and ladylike, BUT I really hate physical training. So I cannot imagine someone forcing to do sit-ups, crawling, climbing fences, etc.. I definately failed.

Also, I am already 40 and most people that I know do not have got the shooting training or even hold a gun in their entire life . Why need to train our kids shooting???? Shouldnt we teach our children to solve problems the civilized way instead of killing? Maybe, some kid (after the training) who cannot find a job can do robbery, since they know how to use gun?? Sad, sad.

burntan
17-04-2007, 02:26 PM
I thank you guys for the support. RESPECT!!!

And for that dude who said I am sexist, here's news, I'M NOT!! I think women are a capable lot and yes, they have evolved to great heights compared to the years of yore. All I meant in mt first posting was, what is the rational behind having girls in military-like uniforms and and drilling them with military training?! Which part of that training is building their ability to mingle with the other races? And do these ppl in NS council know that such a training can cause serious damage to their biological built that it may cause complications later when they want to bear a child?!! I'm serious, folks!! Do they know of such things or has it been thought out. This is the reason why other countries with mandatory NS DO NOT accept girls into their training. Not becos women folk lack in anything and the gormen is sexist.

I didn't know abt the fine thingy. BUt yes, I will gladly pay the fine than risk getting one of mine MURDERED!!!! I think that is a better term for that, don't you?! And from what I read abt a boy who had his asthma attack, the treatment towards non-bumis are questionable. So, if your kulit-fication says you are not a bumi, watch out, kid. They are coming for you!!!!!!!! :cool:

Would you like to pay around RM1700 to experience the similar training they going to gone thru? That' may change your mind about NS.... it is not that scary after all. :)

lord
17-04-2007, 02:47 PM
Would you like to pay around RM1700 to experience the similar training they going to gone thru? That' may change your mind about NS.... it is not that scary after all. :)

no, mate. cos' I believe it is a waste of time, not the money!! If the intention is like S'pore, a back-up armed forces during pressing times, I agree that such a programme is required. If the intention is to foster whatever they call it, I truly think it is bull-sh!t!!! what 11 yrs in school has failed to accomplish cannot be achieved in 3 mths. and here's another bitter truth. you guys can chew my head later but when you really think abt it, you will undersstand that i am right.

The programme is actually to counter the problem of one race. They are the ones with a lot of social problems, from mat-rempits to lepak-kakis in shopping malls. Punk life practises with some eating rubbish as part of their practise. Homosexualism. Then you have the bohsias, underaged pregnancy and etc. Want to know more, watch edisiSiasat on ntv7.

This programme is actually designed for them. But what morons we have up there who can't see things in perspective, as usual. The problem lies with parents, parents crazed with material wealth. They leave their kids running like cattles in the field. Just take a peak into the cybercafes in usj. They are filled with these guys, and some parents willingly drop them of at these ctrs.

So, you don't come and tell me to pay money to experience crap food, half-past 6 physcological training, with trainers who don't even know what to do with their own lives, mate. Maybe your value of your kids is not that paramount. I, on the other hand am duty bound to care and tend to them. I will decide in their best interest. NO fool who is too uneducated to sit in a ministry can compel me to send my kids against my will so that his hellish schemes which are not thought out can pass a scheming gormen, understand. Maybe some dude from the estates might be excited abt trainings like these, I'm not!

This country has gone to the dogs and I AM NOT GOING TO LET THEM DRAG MY KIDS ALONG WITH THEIR LOW MENTALITY SCHEME!!!!!

sinleong
17-04-2007, 03:32 PM
im not too keen about NS either... i am not 17 and i have no kids. i just dont like the idea of my hard earned tax money being thrown into something so stupid like NS.

unlike most countries who have NS, the objective of the Malaysian NS is for national integration. i dont think there is any such objective when at the top level, our national politics is still divided by race - UMNO, MIC, MCA. As one MCA chap used to say, the fish rots from the head.

sulynx
17-04-2007, 04:01 PM
And for that dude who said I am sexist, here's news, I'M NOT!! I think women are a capable lot and yes, they have evolved to great heights compared to the years of yore. All I meant in mt first posting was, what is the rational behind having girls in military-like uniforms and and drilling them with military training?! Which part of that training is building their ability to mingle with the other races? And do these ppl in NS council know that such a training can cause serious damage to their biological built that it may cause complications later when they want to bear a child?!! I'm serious, folks!! Do they know of such things or has it been thought out. This is the reason why other countries with mandatory NS DO NOT accept girls into their training. Not becos women folk lack in anything and the gormen is sexist.

i must be the "dude" you're referring to, even though by rights i am not. ;) i'm glad to hear you're not sexist, because your first comment can be interpreted as sexist, and i know that sometimes what may sound like something is not what is intended by the person saying it.

burntan
18-04-2007, 12:34 PM
no, mate. cos' I believe it is a waste of time, not the money!! If the intention is like S'pore, a back-up armed forces during pressing times, I agree that such a programme is required. If the intention is to foster whatever they call it, I truly think it is bull-sh!t!!! what 11 yrs in school has failed to accomplish cannot be achieved in 3 mths. and here's another bitter truth. you guys can chew my head later but when you really think abt it, you will undersstand that i am right.

The programme is actually to counter the problem of one race. They are the ones with a lot of social problems, from mat-rempits to lepak-kakis in shopping malls. Punk life practises with some eating rubbish as part of their practise. Homosexualism. Then you have the bohsias, underaged pregnancy and etc. Want to know more, watch edisiSiasat on ntv7.

This programme is actually designed for them. But what morons we have up there who can't see things in perspective, as usual. The problem lies with parents, parents crazed with material wealth. They leave their kids running like cattles in the field. Just take a peak into the cybercafes in usj. They are filled with these guys, and some parents willingly drop them of at these ctrs.

So, you don't come and tell me to pay money to experience crap food, half-past 6 physcological training, with trainers who don't even know what to do with their own lives, mate. Maybe your value of your kids is not that paramount. I, on the other hand am duty bound to care and tend to them. I will decide in their best interest. NO fool who is too uneducated to sit in a ministry can compel me to send my kids against my will so that his hellish schemes which are not thought out can pass a scheming gormen, understand. Maybe some dude from the estates might be excited abt trainings like these, I'm not!

This country has gone to the dogs and I AM NOT GOING TO LET THEM DRAG MY KIDS ALONG WITH THEIR LOW MENTALITY SCHEME!!!!!

To me this sound like a bit racist... btw do you really clear what is NS training content? Why not find out more before you jump to any conclusion?

lord
18-04-2007, 03:37 PM
hey bro, you sure you're not Lee Lam Thye, huhh??!!! :confused:

burntan
18-04-2007, 04:24 PM
hey bro, you sure you're not Lee Lam Thye, huhh??!!! :confused:

I mentioned before in this forum (not in this thread) that I personally know some of the NS camp trainers, I know the company that design the training for them and I gone thru similar training program before. I interviewed some of the students there and listen to them sharing the wonderful experience they had during the camp. That's why I don't think this NS program is a totally waste of money and time of our children.

Beside, I do respect Datuk Lee Lam Thye and trust him.

vsat
18-04-2007, 06:16 PM
I come from a Kebangsaan school. Namely, Sek Ren Keb Sultan Ismail 1 and Sek Men Dato Ahmad Maher.

So, I've mixed around with Malays, Chinese and Indians equally. I find that NS is the only way for those who come from Chinese or Tamil schools to mix around with Malays and discover that all humans are universally the same. We just want to be friends and cheerful with each other. Nobody wants a repeat of Bosnia - Herzegovina.

Pboey
18-04-2007, 07:22 PM
Imo,
I don;t think there is anything wrong signing up for NS. Neither do I think,IF there is a racism issue it is any different than anywhere else. The only difference is there are more people in your surroundings or 'breaching' your *personal space*. But isn't that one of the objectives of going there in the first place? To tear down those antisocial walls.
Sure, since it was implemented not so very long ago, there may be teething problems. If there are issues with biasness, rather then just bearing with it, why not bring it up to the right people to sort it out. Going forward, it would do good to all all.

These are the benefits though that one can gain from NS
1) Stronger character
2) Improvement on self-discipline
3) Extended network of associates / acquaintances / friends(no matter what race)
4) Getting rid of the spoilt city kid attitude.

my tupence.

USJ27Resident
18-04-2007, 10:10 PM
That's why I don't think this NS program is a totally waste of money and time of our children.

Beside, I do respect Datuk Lee Lam Thye and trust him.

Do you have kids... I wonder if the tune would be the same if you had to pick them up from the morgue like some unfortunate parents, recently.....

As for Lee Lam Thye... mebbe NS program has taught him to be a softy... izzit? All that crying and all... Remember a time when MCA or BN couldn't touch this fella...

Lord, I'm with you on this matter - will be saving my ringgits & sens to either pay for the stupid fine or to get my kids outta the country to avoid it... :(

Pboey
18-04-2007, 10:52 PM
No kids for me,
But I still stand by my views on the good things that CAN come out of NS.
What we've heard + seen are all negative of course. I guess it is just not for everybody. There are people I know who have gone in and came out ok

Anyway, for those who can pay the fine and escape NS, by all means go for it.
But for those in the position that cannot come up with that sum, I guess we'll have to wish them luck or just pray for them. :(

Maybe it's just me but I"m optimistic that things CAN still change for the better. **it's still teething**

Except maybe for Streamyx... :p

umadavid
19-04-2007, 12:05 AM
You won't call it " teething problem" when one of your kid end up dead, raped and or with a broken back :(

kevin23
19-04-2007, 12:39 AM
For christ sake,its just NS and in fact i think its good for all kids.Yes,all kids should go for NS.There are many of those spoilt rich brats staying at home watching TV,playing games when NS provides them a platform to do something other than sitting on that couch doing something useless all day long.And for your information,i am sure the 99% of the kids who have attended NS are loving it.Remember the year it was introduced? Everyone was scared ****less about getting chosen for NS.Look at what has happened now,all of them want to go.Even some girls are forcing their way into NS just for the experience.I am sure the molest and deaths are isolated cases.In fact,their training is nothing compared to singapore.Its so much more relaxed and yeah,the commanders may be strict but heck thatz what the whole thing is all about.

So i think to TS,you should just let your daughters go if you really have.Countless females have attented and came home unscathed.What makes you think your daughters are so special to receive special attention?Just let them go and when they come back,i am sure your perspective of NS would have changed.And no,its not a waste of money.

This has what has become of Malaysian parents.Overprotection.

Pboey
19-04-2007, 12:58 AM
I don't deny NS is a screwed up implementation. My brother escaped it narrowly due to his age. No parent would want to send their kids through hell.
It's just unfortunate that the results we see / her about NS are very disturbing.

let me try to put my meaning in previous post this way*neutral here*. There are two sides of a coin. Terrible things have happened. But there are good things that have come out of it too. It's just that the impact is not enough to gain approval.

The programme is far from acceptable. I'm sure amongst us there are some with influence or know people who can try to make a change for the better. Like it or not, looks like NS is gonna stay.

Rather than waiting for the day to come / or pay up, why not at least try to get help from these people. I have a colleague at work who is a NS trainer. (Part time probably) There are positive / negative feedback from herself.

For me, it is definitely NATO(no action,talk only)--> I'm just a small fry.
Even during my college days, there were already rumours on NS. I was praying it won't be implemented until i passed the age. **I'm a scrawny fellow with a BMI that is way out.Don;t think I'll survive in there..not because of physical exertions..I need to eat all the time**

Nevertheless, I do wish the best for your kids and the NS programme take serious restructuring with help froom Singapore.

burntan
19-04-2007, 09:30 AM
Do you have kids... I wonder if the tune would be the same if you had to pick them up from the morgue like some unfortunate parents, recently.....

As for Lee Lam Thye... mebbe NS program has taught him to be a softy... izzit? All that crying and all... Remember a time when MCA or BN couldn't touch this fella...

Lord, I'm with you on this matter - will be saving my ringgits & sens to either pay for the stupid fine or to get my kids outta the country to avoid it... :(

Yes, I do have kids, two of them. While some people would rather pay RM3k fine to avoid NS, I willing to pay RM3k (if chargeable) to get them in.

There are people get molest, rape, beaten and kill almost everyday outside the camp, so in contrast I will feel more safer to put my love one in the camp.

As for Datuk Lee, he is strong enough to cry, that's another thing that earn my respect to him.

lord
19-04-2007, 09:30 AM
To me this sound like a bit racist...

YES, I am one. I can never believe that this training is designed with non-bumis in mind. No way!! The way Malaysia is being run now, this is a far-fetched story. Everything is about them and for them.



But isn't that one of the objectives of going there in the first place? To tear down those antisocial walls.

Then why is the whole system focused largely on one race? For example food. And are there classes for enrichment of Chinese and Indian culture. Or are there trainings/modules for understanding of other cultures?



Maybe it's just me but I"m optimistic that things CAN still change for the better. **it's still teething** .

When it involves humans, there is no room for 'teething-problems'. You don't take a chance with other peoples children, let alone your own ones. When the govt comes up with a training of this scale, parents expect everything to be in place, thought out thoroughly and leave no room to chance. Can you imagine the first batch of kids went in to NS as guinea-pigs?! Yeah, that is what happened. The council, together with LLT were not prepared 101%. I feel sh!tty everytime I read a kid dies in NS. Yes, I honestly do. Can you imagine the grief the parents are going thru. Not all of them wanted to send their kids off, I'm sure. And after sending them reluctantly, they send your kids back in a plastic bag! You hv to be a prent, who has developed that bond to know how that feels. Look at that kid Saravanan who drowned. You tell me it was the boys mistake?



There are many of those spoilt rich brats staying at home watching TV,playing games when NS provides them a platform to do something other than sitting on that couch doing something useless all day long.

Blame the parents.




And for your information,i am sure the 99% of the kids who have attended NS are loving it.......Look at what has happened now,all of them want to go.Even some girls are forcing their way into NS just for the experience.

Are you sure? 99% of the kids who attended NS I asked did not love it. Explain that.




I am sure the molest and deaths are isolated cases.

Ok, you are piss!ng- e off now. I'm sure you will have the same attitude after one of your sister is molested.




In fact,their training is nothing compared to singapore.

That is becos their purpose for NS is different than ours. Theirs is a military based. Ours is meant to cover-up the screw--ups that happens in our education system.




What makes you think your daughters are so special to receive special attention?

Uncalled for statement, undermining the value of someone-elses daughter. YOu are not in a position to comment on how someone values their child unless you played a part in creating that child, kevin23. Than such a worthless comment would have been justified!!

lord
19-04-2007, 09:35 AM
Yes, I do have kids, two of them. While some people would rather pay RM3k fine to avoid NS, I willing to pay RM3k (if chargeable) to get them in.

Bro, take half of that amount and put your kids into AsiaWorks Training in PJ. Tell me the difference when they return home.

hhtee
19-04-2007, 09:42 AM
Why are non-bumi halal food served in training camps? Is this a malay familiarisation programme?
!!

That reminds me about the Canteen Day or is it sports day where a school in Shah Alam asks non-Muslim parents to bring ONLY dry food to the event.

burntan
19-04-2007, 10:43 AM
Bro, take half of that amount and put your kids into AsiaWorks Training in PJ. Tell me the difference when they return home.

I do attend and send my kids to various training camps, they didn't turn to anything after those training (still can't score 100% in the exam), but the valuable experience is there to stay.

I realiased that I don't know everything and I don't even know what I "don't know". If I able to copy 100% of my knowledge and experience to my kids, they are still limited to what I know only. Real life experience is valuable, including the good and bad, that make us mature, isn't it?

If your reason to keep away your kids from NS program is because it is a screwed program, then unfortunately you should realise that we are in fact living in a screwed city in a screwed country in a screwed world. There is no way to hide, we must learn to survive in it.

Pboey
19-04-2007, 10:12 PM
Hi Lord,

Using **Teething problem** may be blunt and cold. But that;s how i see it.
Almost anything new introduced into bolehland are bound to face 'unforeseen' complications.

As for guinea pigs, it is afterall a programme with human involvement. For this, I blame the selection of candidates into NS.

sinleong
19-04-2007, 10:33 PM
you know... when i was in school, it was compulsory for us to join the scouts, police cadets, st. john's... pick one. that's 5 years of training every weekend and we had camps during the school holidays. i think this is much cheaper than NS. instead of creating a completely new program, they should have just poured the money into the scouts or other school uniform bodies. they really need the cash. instead, they are pouring the money into various contractors and some of them don't even have any experience like the ex-army officers operating bus transports. the whole exercise just looks like a huge money laundering activity if you ask me.

USJ27Resident
20-04-2007, 01:34 AM
Yes, I do have kids, two of them. While some people would rather pay RM3k fine to avoid NS, I willing to pay RM3k (if chargeable) to get them in..
My question was...
I wonder if the tune would be the same if you had to pick them up from the morgue like some unfortunate parents, recently..... Not as in how much you would be willing to pay to send them in... thank you.

burntan
20-04-2007, 01:31 PM
My question was... Not as in how much you would be willing to pay to send them in... thank you.

There are 33 die in Virginia Tech Rampage recently....do you think Malaysian's parent still send their children to US for further study?

Do you really think it is lot more safer outside the camp?

lord
20-04-2007, 03:23 PM
There are 33 die in Virginia Tech Rampage recently....do you think Malaysian's parent still send their children to US for further study?

Do you really think it is lot more safer outside the camp?

this particular episode has definitely changed my view of sending my kids to the us to study. insidents like these do make an impact on ppl. maybe not all but it does on some.

Pboey
20-04-2007, 05:46 PM
this particular episode has definitely changed my view of sending my kids to the us to study. insidents like these do make an impact on ppl. maybe not all but it does on some.

I agree with you. However, we will never know what will happen next.
I was in London for a month recently and the area my colleagues were put up in had already become a drive by shooting arena.

For the duration of 6 weeks i was there, there were 4 shoot outs 3 deaths. All innocent passerbys gunned down by while walking home. And my poor colleagues had to walk to and from the train station to work everyday.

burntan
20-04-2007, 06:45 PM
this particular episode has definitely changed my view of sending my kids to the us to study. insidents like these do make an impact on ppl. maybe not all but it does on some.

There are lot more horrible episode happened around the world, from serial killer, civil riot, religious conflict to terrorist attack, not to mention natural disaster like huricane, tsunami, earth quake...etc.

In contrast, It is lot more safer to stay in Malaysia and let our children enrol to the NS camp, isn't it?

Pboey
20-04-2007, 06:54 PM
Enrol in NS is one thing, but will get selected or not? not everyone can get in right? :confused:

sinleong
20-04-2007, 07:13 PM
There are lot more horrible episode happened around the world, from serial killer, civil riot, religious conflict to terrorist attack, not to mention natural disaster like huricane, tsunami, earth quake...etc.

In contrast, It is lot more safer to stay in Malaysia and let our children enrol to the NS camp, isn't it?

why are you so supportive of the NS? if you like NS so much, you should go and join them and become a trainer. also please find a way for the government to pay for it with your money so that it doesn't burden the rest of us tax payers.

kevin23
20-04-2007, 07:14 PM
Hello,if you dont get selected you can alwayz apply to get in.I dont think they will have any qualms in accepting you.Just ask.

Pboey
20-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Hello,if you dont get selected you can alwayz apply to get in.I dont think they will have any qualms in accepting you.Just ask.

meaning.. if you don;t want to sign up, don't apply to get in la. Lesser chance to get selected. If **touch wood** NS jackpot hits you, and you still don;t want to go in - then pay up lor.

hmm..but if i had the chance a few years ago, i might've just gone for it.

isarahim
20-04-2007, 08:52 PM
The people defending NS, as far as I have seen to date, are either with vested interests in it or blind BN followers.

pepsi
20-04-2007, 09:40 PM
The people defending NS, as far as I have seen to date, are either with vested interests in it or blind BN followers.
Isa, I am neither the above, but I support NS's objective.
If we are talking about it's objective, (I don't agree that it will help with the racial bonding, though- not much can be done at this point), I will say, it's a good one. In the past, I note Burntan and I have nothing in common but today, I standby him saying that, anything can happen, anywhere, not necessarily at NS. Rape can happen in the car park or the park, in a bus. It strikes without warning and it can happen even in a safest place, at home. Women are sexually harassed at workplace, pubs, disco, buses, anywhere. Nobody is safe anywhere, we can only learn to be more careful and streetwise. We cannot protect our love ones all the time.Lord, I understand your concern for your daughter, teach her, prepare her but not shield her. Also, when GOD decides to take a love one, we cannot stop it.Pray for them

burntan
20-04-2007, 09:50 PM
why are you so supportive of the NS?

Simply because it is a good program. Please don't think negatively about it just because this idea come out from a political party that you don't like.


if you like NS so much, you should go and join them and become a trainer. also please find a way for the government to pay for it with your money so that it doesn't burden the rest of us tax payers.

If you really care so much about how to put good use of our tax payers money, then why not you join the next G.E. and get elected to make a different?

kwchang
20-04-2007, 11:04 PM
Just added the words "National service" to the thread title.
The original title "what will it take?" does not give any indications to the contents discussed.

Pboey
20-04-2007, 11:58 PM
The people defending NS, as far as I have seen to date, are either with vested interests in it or blind BN followers.

Hi Isa,
None of the above as well. it's just a difference in opinion.
I just happen to believe NS is a good idea gone awry.

Teeque
21-04-2007, 12:52 AM
....I just happen to believe NS is a good idea gone awry.
so why? what happen? enlighten us pls...

USJ9chin
21-04-2007, 01:08 AM
In fact everywhere is not safe, not even your home. Beware of the mosquito.
People got killed in the highway everyday - to prevent this - don't drive.
A lot of people got killed during festive season on highway - to prevent this - don't go any where.
Snatch thief and rapist everywhere in town - to prevent this - stay at home and don't get out. ( Sorry mosquito also can kill)
Sexual harrasment in office - to prevent this - don't work.
If we are so negative about everything, how can we live happily.
We must teach our children to fend for themselves not run away from it.
NS is sure to stay. I am looking forward to sending my four kids when being selected. I am very sure this will make them tough and learn more from others races.

isarahim
21-04-2007, 10:00 AM
None of the above as well. it's just a difference in opinion.
I just happen to believe NS is a good idea gone awry.
Hi Pboey, yes I agree, since you don't actually defend it but realise that it has gone awry, you cannot be blind, so you don't fall under the 'vested/BN-blindness' criterion.

isarahim
21-04-2007, 10:10 AM
Please don't think negatively about it just because this idea come out from a political party that you don't like.
I think it's rude of you to dismiss people's views out of hand. Maybe you form your views based on your political party I cannot say, but the vast majority of people do the other way around. We select political party based on our views. We don't select our views based on political party.

Selecting political party is not a lifetime choice. On the contrary, in a working democracy, people select political parties based on what they believe is right for the country/state/municipality at that particular point in time. People will support different parties at different times. I've voted UMNO many times in the past, but I just think it's a pretty catastrophic choice right now. NS is just one of many huge unnecessary money wasters apart from it's other flaws.

isarahim
21-04-2007, 10:18 AM
Isa, I am neither the above, but I support NS's objective.
If we are talking about it's objective, (I don't agree that it will help with the racial bonding, though- not much can be done at this point), I will say, it's a good one.
One has to relate the objectives to the cost. The cost of this programme is not just the monetary costs, but also the disruption in young people's early career start and hence loss of productivity for the country.

pcyeoh
21-04-2007, 12:44 PM
I totally agree with you isarahim. I don't know whether to consider myself very sway to have two teenagers of mine being selected in 2005 and another this year. He is currently doing NS in MIRI and I as a father asked myself WHY Miri when even Batang Berjuntai will do as well. I love this Batang town. Just now he called me using the fixed line lah that his handphone was stolen and this thing is happening all the time. If I were to tell you all the things that is happening in the camp, I am afraid I will not get to see him again. The last time when my daughter was in Semenyih, I have been tipping off the press on the happening there. And whenever the press appeared at the camp to cover one incident, the camp commandent would 'threaten' the wira and wiratis whose parents tipped them off. Since Yeoh's surname is so uncommon, it is very easy for them to single out my daugther. So I always remained annonymous. I also feed back to YB Loh Seng Kok who is the MP appointed to look after the NS interest. I was even questioned by the army fellas why I was taking so many photographs inside the camp. I just told them off that if those areas I was not supposed to snap, then please indicate them. The following week, I noticed that they have put up notices around the sleeping quarters which is fair enough. But I outsmarted them. I passed the camera to my daughter to do that. After having 2 of my kids there, I still feel that NS is a waste of time, money and opportunity to kids who could have focus themselves to excel in their academic studies. They should target those who after the exam results have nowhere to go. Train them in a 6 month NS camp to prepare them in their career. That will be more productive. Because they were so unlucky to be selected for the NS training, my 2 children start to hate the government. I don't blame them as it is a bad experience especially when they were fed 'unedible' food which they are totally unfamiliar with. They survived on biscuits most of the time. They start to hate a certain race because of the numerous petty thefts occurring in the camp. As for my daughter, not one day passed without either a leering look or some sexual remarks passed on her. She could not complain lest the look turned into a killer look. This is happening in a typical camp but not in school. So NS is a step backward rather than forward in nation building

FineTuned
21-04-2007, 02:05 PM
Yes, some think NS program is a good idea. Even I have to agree it's a pretty good idea. But good ideas abound, just like bullsh*t. The fact is, good ideas rarely fulfill their real targets because there ain't enough good, honest and dedicated people to make it succeed.

I would really like to hear from more parents whose kids have gone through the course. Have you noticed any improvement in your kids since they returned from the camp? So far, my conversations with other parents are turning in a lot more negatives than positives. Typically like yours, pcyeoh.
General consensus: a total waste of time.

Frankly, the objectives of NS seem to be a redundant portion of our National Education system. Aren't our schools the rightful place for our kids to learn good social behaviour, acquire interaction skills, good morals etc.? If they can't learn these traits in 9 years of school (assuming the average kid can get up to Tingkatan Tiga at least), what do we hope for them to learn in 3 short months?

Put all the money set aside for NS, and distribute it to the schools as better salaries for teachers, better facilities, scholarships etc, and I think it would be money better spent.

pepsi
21-04-2007, 04:16 PM
Out of curiousity, do you get negative feedback from parents from all walks of life and races ?I am sure if there was enough of complaints, definitely something would be done to rectify the present problems. Correct me if I am wrong.
The numbers who are dead against it and they numbers who are ok with it, is the ratio negligible ?
Perhaps Mr Lee Lam Tye can come up with the figures for everyone to digest it? Even if the minority is against it, the percentage is of importance.
Otherwise, the negligible numbers have to prepare their children for NS, because NS is here to stay until those who are against it come out and say so, in huge meaningful numbers.
As per kwchang, we have not come up with anything constructive.We should be looking into this areas.
Perhaps, Mr Lee could make time to hold a "PIBG" meeting btwn the trainers, Mr Lee and the parents at the camp.This would build a better rapport and understanding.
Mr Lee, if possible can visit each camp personally and have a close door feed back from the trainees during their traning stint.
As for food, provide "halal" cook food, however acceptable for all races. Some can't take spicy food or may even be vegetarians.
Be fair to all races and religions, respect their needs eg hindus don't take beef, some christians don't take meat on Fridays but fish and vegetable and etc.
If NS objective is to get all races to bond, than all, including the trainers and those managing the camps should be sensitive and respect other races do's and don'ts too.
If this can be practise, I would say that the racial bonding might just work.
The trainees are not there to learn of only one races' do's and don'ts, but all races and religions .
Better understanding and tolerance, can than be achieved.
Semangat gotong royong boleh.

pepsi
21-04-2007, 05:03 PM
Suggestions:
a) appraisal to be done at the end of the training for each trainer by the trainees without names given. This will ensure that only the best trainers are retained and no hanky panky. Also can get valuable feedback for improvement in areas of training, food and living conditions.
b) Trainers to introduce themselves by giving their names and some brief background of themselves to the trainees. Do they wear a name tag at all times ?
c) parents be allowed to visit at certain day and time, as an assurance everything is fine at the camp and their children are coping well.
d) Provide locker service, so that they can keep their valuables. Preferably don't bring is better, provided telephone facilities are provided at every living quarters or strategic areas. Not secluded.
This are merely my personal suggestions, feel free to add or do away with any

isarahim
21-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Your list is actually quite complete. I can only think of one single additional suggestion:
e) Scrap it.

fabregas
22-04-2007, 12:11 AM
I am quite sure there are some of you who remember childhoods where the closest thing to National Geographic or Animal Planet, was climbing a Jambu and Mango tree, swiming in the river or catching guppy in the stream. And instead of playing PS2 or X box, we were out outdoors playing and catching insects. I still carry the scars from the numerous little "accidents" that I had during my childhood "adventures". For me, all that went away when I went off to university and started working. But after working for a few years, my company packed me and a bunch of colleagues (multiracial) to Outwardbound (run by a proffesional well trained outfit, near Lumut) for 2 weeks. Man, it was tough, going thru a military style training - jogging for miles everyday, learning to trek thru a jungle (nearly getting lost), went sailing, kayaking (feeling sea sick and badly sun burnt), camping (sharing a small tent with several other fellows who were snoring and farting away thru out the night), climbing up and down cliffs, using the flying fox, learned about team work, etc. We all felt tentative and worried before starting, but in the end everybody agreed it was a great learning experience and actually did not mind going thru it again. What I am saying is that the NS program is a great way to toughten up our present younger generation who are (in my humble opinion) living a more "sheltered" life with their computer games, and astro and barbie dolls. And it does foster camderie. However, the NS program needs to be improved drastically.

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 12:29 AM
NS is sure to stay. I am looking forward to sending my four kids when being selected. I am very sure this will make them tough and learn more from others races.Err buddy...were you subjected to undergoing any such programmes like the NS before? neither has Orchi...

Now...how come we could learn more from other races before...without any such programmes...but now suddenly we need it? What else has gone wrong instead...?

Ahem...don't know about you...but Orchi n quite many folks out there comes just as tough enough...thru the years...without any such programmes...

n how tough would you want your children to grow up to be...n for what purpose? physical fitness?

So you are thinking that the freaking NS could lead n assist them to achieve those...? in which way?

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 12:37 AM
What I am saying is that the NS program is a great way to toughten up our present younger generation who are (in my humble opinion) living a more "sheltered" life with their computer games, and astro and barbie dolls. And it does foster camderie. However, the NS program needs to be improved drastically.Err buddy...it wouldn't have to be that way...with or without the NS programme...

n again...Orchi hears the word...'tough'...?

So...by the sending the kids to go over some obstacle course for a couple of moons in the camps would make them...'tough'...?

Why not encourage them to join the Civil Defense Forces...like the Police n Arm forces...or Bomba?

It would certainly make more sense n be more meaningful than the freaking NS programme...

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 12:44 AM
If your reason to keep away your kids from NS program is because it is a screwed program, then unfortunately you should realise that we are in fact living in a screwed city in a screwed country in a screwed world. There is no way to hide, we must learn to survive in it.Err...indeed you would think that spending 2 or 3 months time with the NS is going to lead n get your kids there...overcome the hurdles...n achieve their goals...

Simply bewildered...

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 12:56 AM
you know... when i was in school, it was compulsory for us to join the scouts, police cadets, st. john's... pick one. that's 5 years of training every weekend and we had camps during the school holidays. i think this is much cheaper than NS. instead of creating a completely new program, they should have just poured the money into the scouts or other school uniform bodies. they really need the cash. instead, they are pouring the money into various contractors and some of them don't even have any experience like the ex-army officers operating bus transports. the whole exercise just looks like a huge money laundering activity if you ask me.Err buddies...the above holds plenty more water...than some of you may think of otherwise...good thinking buddy!

Geez...after reading some of the other comments...wonders now...what have they taught Malaysians to think with...since the early 1980s...?

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 12:57 AM
Your list is actually quite complete. I can only think of one single additional suggestion:
e) Scrap it.Err...agrees with buddy IsaRahim...the sooner the better!

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 01:16 AM
If you really care so much about how to put good use of our tax payers money, then why not you join the next G.E. and get elected to make a different?Err...where have you been lately?

This is becoming more bewildering...you are suggesting to so many rakyat jelata who hold the country's interests at hearts...that they ALL should instead run for politics...to be elected representatives...

Then whom have you VOTED for all these years...BN? Yes those politicians that you so regard highly of in the freaking UMNO led BN government...right?

Ahem...you are now FINALLY admitting that...THEY DON'T hold the TAXPAYERS' interests close to their hearts...n THEY CAN'T make the difference instead for the wellbeing n welfare of this country...

n THEY are wasting TAXPAYERS' money...! TQ!

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 02:14 AM
I note Burntan and I have nothing in common but today, I standby him saying that, anything can happen, anywhere, not necessarily at NS. Rape can happen in the car park or the park, in a bus. It strikes without warning and it can happen even in a safest place, at home. Women are sexually harassed at workplace, pubs, disco, buses, anywhere. Nobody is safe anywhere, we can only learn to be more careful and streetwise. We cannot protect our love ones all the time.Lord, I understand your concern for your daughter, teach her, prepare her but not shield her. Also, when GOD decides to take a love one, we cannot stop it.Pray for themErr buddy...for the life of Orchi...perhaps unconsciously you may have just reminded yourself n others...that by enrolling in self defense or martial arts courses...complete its trainings adequately n staying alert mostly...would certainly make better differences between life n death...which has absolutely NOTHING to do with NS...

So do you REALLY think now...the so called 'teachings' n 'trainings' in the NS programme could make any difference to that effect...within the few short spans of full moons...?

FineTuned
22-04-2007, 11:32 AM
Oooo, the patient orchipalar has finally exploded....I count seven posts in a row....you NS supporters better run for cover!

fabregas
22-04-2007, 03:03 PM
Err buddy...it wouldn't have to be that way...with or without the NS programme...

n again...Orchi hears the word...'tough'...?

So...by the sending the kids to go over some obstacle course for a couple of moons in the camps would make them...'tough'...?

Why not encourage them to join the Civil Defense Forces...like the Police n Arm forces...or Bomba?

It would certainly make more sense n be more meaningful than the freaking NS programme...

dude,

I was just sharing my experience of my time during the Outwardbound program (14 years ago) I went thru and the benefits I felt I obtained from it. I forgot to mention that during that time I also met a bunch of "after SPM" teenagers (about 40 of them) there. Their parents sent them there for a 4 week program, to learn about the outdoors, teamwork, etc. And they looked like they were having fun as well. If the Police, Civil Defence Force, etc have a program that achieves similar results , by all means promote it. I admit the NS program is badly run, and may carry some political agenda, but that aside, the potential is good enough to warrant some tuning and not an outright scrapping of the project. Like I said the Outwardbound program was great, it was professionally run. And they treated the members with great respect. After each exercise or activity, they took pains to explain what it was all about. They even had a feedback session on how to make the program better. So why can't the NS program be like that?

Choon1980
22-04-2007, 03:22 PM
Like I said the Outwardbound program was great, it was professionally run. And they treated the members with great respect. After each exercise or activity, they took pains to explain what it was all about. They even had a feedback session on how to make the program better. So why can't the NS program be like that?

Because if the NS program is like that, it wouldn't be NS anymore. It would be an Outwardbound program.

NS should be scrapped simply because it doesn't and can't achieve its objective, promote racial integrity and unity in 3 short months.

And if the objective is for kids to have fun, enjoy themselves and "get tougher", there's tons of other activities/program that should be encouraged. With lower mortality rates, by the way. When was the last time you read in the papers "Student raped/murdered/robbed in Hash House Harrier Run"?

sinleong
22-04-2007, 04:50 PM
dude,

I was just sharing my experience of my time during the Outwardbound program (14 years ago) I went thru and the benefits I felt I obtained from it. I forgot to mention that during that time I also met a bunch of "after SPM" teenagers (about 40 of them) there. Their parents sent them there for a 4 week program, to learn about the outdoors, teamwork, etc. And they looked like they were having fun as well. If the Police, Civil Defence Force, etc have a program that achieves similar results , by all means promote it. I admit the NS program is badly run, and may carry some political agenda, but that aside, the potential is good enough to warrant some tuning and not an outright scrapping of the project. Like I said the Outwardbound program was great, it was professionally run. And they treated the members with great respect. After each exercise or activity, they took pains to explain what it was all about. They even had a feedback session on how to make the program better. So why can't the NS program be like that?


yes dude... why can't they just build on the existing programs available at school instead of spending hundreds of millions of our money to create a new one? smells like the failed rakan muda program. i wonder what else after NS? another scheme? can make money?

fabregas
22-04-2007, 05:09 PM
Because if the NS program is like that, it wouldn't be NS anymore. It would be an Outwardbound program.

NS should be scrapped simply because it doesn't and can't achieve its objective, promote racial integrity and unity in 3 short months.

And if the objective is for kids to have fun, enjoy themselves and "get tougher", there's tons of other activities/program that should be encouraged. With lower mortality rates, by the way. When was the last time you read in the papers "Student raped/murdered/robbed in Hash House Harrier Run"?

I think the argument is going around in circles. Its not about what the program is called. You can call it an Outwardbound X program if you want to. Its to promote teamwork between different races and people. I also feel that merely attending such a program as this does not guarantee that you meet all your goals. I mean its not fair to expect a 3 month long program to churn out youths who will happily respect and mix with other races. (just like a 5 day property seminar will not make you an overnight property tycoon) As somebody rightly pointed out these behaviours are inculcated in schools, in public places and at home throughout your life. But a program like this is certainly educational. Having said that - I realise its not everybody's cup of tea.

I have not heard of "accidents" in a Hash House Harrier Run. But I know children get into accidents during field trips or students get shot in a classroom. Anyway, the accidents during NS program that you mentioned is inexcusable. Fire can kill you, but if you control it and harness it properly, it becomes beneficial. We should tune it so that it runs better.

Choon1980
22-04-2007, 11:25 PM
I also feel that merely attending such a program as this does not guarantee that you meet all your goals. I mean its not fair to expect a 3 month long program to churn out youths who will happily respect and mix with other races. (just like a 5 day property seminar will not make you an overnight property tycoon) As somebody rightly pointed out these behaviours are inculcated in schools, in public places and at home throughout your life.

You said it yourself. So what's the whole point of having NS?

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 11:53 PM
You said it yourself. So what's the whole point of having NS?Err buddies...some still thinks...being involuntarily 'locked up' in the camps for a couple of full moons...would make the youths grow up to be non-racist Malaysians...n better humans...

Ahem...how naive can the freaking government gets...? Never...they are doing it for the sakes of pure political nonsense...n ridiculous self interests...period.

orchipalar
22-04-2007, 11:59 PM
Oooo, the patient orchipalar has finally exploded....I count seven posts in a row....you NS supporters better run for cover!Err...NO personal offense...n NOT meant as any disrespects to Mr. Lee Lam Thye...whom Orchi for one knew of as far back from his days as the OPPOSITION MP of Bukit Bintang...

In those early days...HE would certainly NOT have tolerated such utter political nonsense!

Ahem these days...it is obvious that...HE has become...a TOTALLY different MAN altogether...!

pepsi
23-04-2007, 03:25 PM
Err...NO personal offense...n NOT meant as any disrespects to Mr. Lee Lam Thye...whom Orchi for one knew of as far back from his days as the OPPOSITION MP of Bukit Bintang...

In those early days...HE would certainly NOT have tolerated such utter political nonsense!

Ahem these days...it is obvious that...HE has become...a TOTALLY different MAN altogether...!
Orchi, I have always respected the way you present your arguments. Stick to it. :)
Like I said, if all those against it,are of a SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE, who is to say that NS is "unsuitable" and a waste of the taxpayers' money ?
We are all of course entitled to our own opinions. We debate and we give constructive feedback and criticisms but at the end of the day, if we can't convince others to change their minds so be it. Any implemetataion of a plan never gets 100% approval from the people but the RATIO plays a very important role. If the ratio swings to your side, so be it. Let the peoples 'voice be heard, if they support or are against it.

pepsi
23-04-2007, 03:35 PM
Err buddy...for the life of Orchi...perhaps unconsciously you may have just reminded yourself n others...that by enrolling in self defense or martial arts courses...complete its trainings adequately n staying alert mostly...would certainly make better differences between life n death...which has absolutely NOTHING to do with NS...

So do you REALLY think now...the so called 'teachings' n 'trainings' in the NS programme could make any difference to that effect...within the few short spans of full moons...?
Orchi, I am talking based on Lord's concern . Please refer to it.
Yes, we can learn self defense too, it would prepare us for such unwanted situations but we cannot be "shield" from reality. What happened in NS can happen anyway. That is what I meant when I said "teach her and prepare her"and not throw her in without any "ammo".

pepsi
23-04-2007, 03:40 PM
Your list is actually quite complete. I can only think of one single additional suggestion:
e) Scrap it.
Isa, thank you for vetting thru my list.
"Scrap it ", cannot be included in this list bacause the list is "NS - What will it take "
It should be categorised under another list or thread
Eg. How to get NS abolished or how to sabotaj NS? :D
Stay cool, bro.
Jangan marah, ya? ;)

Pboey
23-04-2007, 06:24 PM
so why? what happen? enlighten us pls...

Why it is good idea?
--> as mentioned previously in my first few posts..

Why it went awry?
--> also mentioned in previous few posts.
additionally,
1) It's a half baked program. You got all the materials for the recipe. You just aren;t cooking it right.
2) The expats--> The british run the best military /drill training. My dad started out in the force in the 1960's. They don;t select every tom/dick or harry. The 'selection' needs to have stricter criteria.If they did that,you wouldn't have to see/hear such horrible things in NS. The british have been assisting in the training till the 1980's. Why not fall back on experience?
Or have all who have been trained gone out via retirement?
3) 1 size does not fit all. So many have been selected for NS. There are weaker candidates and there are stronger ones. There has to be separate programmes for each category. It's not rojak. You can't mix it all up and expect fantastic results.
4) If they really want to implement NS, they must look at every detail. Not pick what you like and throw out whatever that does not look appealing.

Hmm.. I do think that most of us believe NS being used for the wrong reasons.

Teeque
23-04-2007, 06:58 PM
ah so, its a recipe for disaster. and we hv disastrous results to show for it. do we still want to carry on with it?

burntan
23-04-2007, 10:23 PM
Err...indeed you would think that spending 2 or 3 months time with the NS is going to lead n get your kids there...overcome the hurdles...n achieve their goals...

Simply bewildered...

If not, then you seriously believe that by escaping the NS will going to deliver the result you mentioned above?

Pboey
24-04-2007, 05:43 PM
ah so, its a recipe for disaster. and we hv disastrous results to show for it. do we still want to carry on with it?

If you look at wht the media/press has got to show, yeah it definitely look disastrous.

**What's your opinion/point of view? I should think you're quite aware of current issues with NS as well.**

quoting from option 'e) SCRAP IT.'

Don;t think it can be scrapped anytime if that's what you meant Teeque.
Presently, there isn;t much choice as whether we want to continue or discontinue with NS. Unless, you can come upfront with the $$ and pay up to escape it.

As an example: If my brother got selected for NS , we (my family + i )would not be in the position to bail him out even if we wanted to.

I pose the question below seeing that NS isn;t going to get scrapped..soon.
1) Would we rather continue with NS as it is or strive towards pushing the gormen to improve it?

isarahim
24-04-2007, 06:31 PM
If not, then you seriously believe that by escaping the NS will going to deliver the result you mentioned above?
Investing the NS wasted monies in better education will certainly have a better chance of achieving the claimed 'NS goals'.

isarahim
24-04-2007, 06:39 PM
I mean its not fair to expect a 3 month long program to churn out youths who will happily respect and mix with other races. (just like a 5 day property seminar will not make you an overnight property tycoon) As somebody rightly pointed out these behaviours are inculcated in schools, in public places and at home throughout your life.
Over and above everything else, the racial issue is underpinned by something called the NEP.

Revamp the NEP to give subsidies and priviliges based on family income rather than race and you have solved at least 3/4th of the the racial issues we have in the country.

Mixing an infected pot will never help as long as the source of the infection is still present. Else it's like trying to cure chicken pox with make-up powder.

Pboey
24-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Investing the NS wasted monies in better education will certainly have a better chance of achieving the claimed 'NS goals'.

Hi Isa,
Point taken.
But hasn't the education system been revamped a few times already? :D

isarahim
24-04-2007, 06:45 PM
"Scrap it ", cannot be included in this list bacause the list is "NS - What will it take "
Just because the title is narrowly formulated, doesn't mean that we should limit ourselves to merely discussing the spelling of pointlessness.

isarahim
24-04-2007, 06:48 PM
But hasn't the education system been revamped a few times already?
Yes, in completely the wrong direction. That's one of the reasons we're sitting here today with a huge problem.

Pboey
24-04-2007, 08:59 PM
Yes, in completely the wrong direction. That's one of the reasons we're sitting here today with a huge problem.

Agreed!
One can sleep through / skip classes and still make the grades or scrape through.The syllabus = rubbish. Doesn't stimulate the mind enough to encourage self iniative to learn.

Tertiary education aside..**some of the study packages are also rubbish though**

fabregas
24-04-2007, 09:30 PM
Over and above everything else, the racial issue is underpinned by something called the NEP.

Revamp the NEP to give subsidies and priviliges based on family income rather than race and you have solved at least 3/4th of the the racial issues we have in the country.

Mixing an infected pot will never help as long as the source of the infection is still present. Else it's like trying to cure chicken pox with make-up powder.

I was attempting to support the NS and any outwardbound like program merely for the sake that it teaches our youth about the outdoors, team work, etc. And do not expect the NS or similar short programs to improve national unity overnight. Maybe the NS was not a good example to illustrate my points.

Anyway on your point about the country's race issues. It could be because of the NEP, but I think the main contributor is really ourselves. Each with our own hidden prejudices amplified by the "batu api" politicians.

I was innocently discussing a candidate I wanted to hire with a fellow colleague. She blurted out something to the effect of "he is definitely smart for a malay" For the record, this colleague is a very nice and kind woman, and almost immediately after the last word left her mouth, she realsied she had made a racially sensitive remark".

Many years ago, I attended a get together with some friends who participated in the Outwardbound program. I was the only Chinese at the dinner, because the rest had prior commitments. One of them declared that I was "the best Chinese" because I turned up. Again, this friend is a very nice and generous man, and almost immediately realised his sensitive remark.

Hey, I myself also unwittingly let loose some sensitive remarks sometimes.

The NEP feeds the corrupt. And it also gives most Malays a sense of security, because some fear other races will over run them and control the country's economy and politics. And take over the land of their forefathers. And that their culture will be forgotten and become extinct. Why? Because some have this perception (true or false you decide) that other races are pushy and like to grab everything.

If PKR wins by some miracle, I am sure NEP will continue (maybe change to another name).

I know its human nature, and think the only way we can foster cross cultural relationships and trust is to mingle and mix with the other races, and attempt to understand each other's culture. Its long process and it involves everybody.

Pboey
24-04-2007, 10:30 PM
I know its human nature, and think the only way we can foster cross cultural relationships and trust is to mingle and mix with the other races, and attempt to understand each other's culture. Its long process and it involves everybody.

For the pioneer generation of Malaysians, There usually isn't much problem in the small towns. Example: Taiping, Bidor, Kulim..etc.
Many of them studied in the same school in the same town and given fair treatment regardless by the Brothers / Sisters....
They still get together and drink tea..

From what i see so far, the concentration of the racism issues = in the city where people are very much aware of what rights they've got in terms of privileges /employment..etc..(bumi's / non-bumi's). This automatically creates strife + envy does it not?
Children pretty much adopt what they hear behind closed doors(at home).
So when the parents start talking...be careful yeah?

Fortunately, we do have a lot of open minded youths these days . They mingle around no matter who their peers are. THey actually realise that this is good networking for mutual benefit. Well, that is my observation of course.

Perhaps we really do need more common ground and need to go out more and mingle instead of staying home..read the news and let this 'issue' fester.

orchipalar
24-04-2007, 10:44 PM
Investing the NS wasted monies in better education will certainly have a better chance of achieving the claimed 'NS goals'.Err Saudara IsaRahim...agree with you on ONE condition...

Ahem...more Malaysians...old or young...should 1st vote against these non-conformist political parties... (http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/media/2/20070421-Son-in-Law_Ijok.jpg)n...(notice how they mis-spelled the word Temberang? must have done it repeatedly on purpose!:rolleyes: )

n then...sack the education minister... (http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/media/2/20070420-ijokhishamkhairy.jpg)

All together...they formed the extremism n venomous source of infections...

Eastern Citizen
25-04-2007, 04:41 PM
In principle, the rationale of our type of National Service isn't a bad one. However, one of the biggest problems with it is that it has not been well implemented. It would appear that in some cases, the wrong people have been selected as trainers and some extremely stupid programmes appear to have been included, ie. firearms training. Also, it is frankly quite expensive to run. I have personally met several people who are very happy with our National Service for the wrong reasons, ie. they have managed through various connections to wangle some jobs/contracts from themselves and they are quite lucrative. On the other hand, I have also met quite a few people who have kids who attended it and thoroughly enjoyed it. Obviously, I do not mix around in the same social circles as many of you, seeing as many of you do not seem to have any friends with kids who enjoyed the experience.

My point is this, there are some benefits to National Service but the overall cost seems to be very high and thus, cannot be justified on the grounds that it does not benefit enough people.

Everyone has differing views and we must be adult ehough to accept each other's point of view so long as bigotry does not come into it. Proclaiming one's self to be a racist is really not a good thing. Racism and bigotry are the biggest problems facing our country. In fact racists and bigots ARE themselves a part of the problem.

umadavid
25-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Everyone has differing views and we must be adult ehough to accept each other's point of view so long as bigotry does not come into it. Proclaiming one's self to be a racist is really not a good thing. Racism and bigotry are the biggest problems facing our country. In fact racists and bigots ARE themselves a part of the problem.


Wake up! We are living in Malaysia! We eat, sleep and breath racism every second of our lives. :rolleyes: We are divided along racial lines. Don't even try to tell me that you are not a racist.

We are a racist when we say in passing:
most business folks are chinamen;
usually the robbers are Indons
The robbery was committed by Indians etc and etc...

lord
25-04-2007, 07:59 PM
umadavid, you beat me on this, maam. I think EasternCitizen was refering to me being a racist. I think she has developed a liking for me ;).

To EasternCitizen, yes I am a racist. I have been and still am a victim of racism and racial prejudice. And I believe it will go on and my children will be victims as well. Thus, I have indirectly become one too, a racist myself and I am not the least shy or embarrased to admit it. Why should I? Every Malaysian is a racist in their own way. So, let's not dream of a paradise but face the reality. This is Malaysia and this IS how it works down here.

peace....

iml109
25-04-2007, 08:48 PM
been following this thread for awhile now, never made any comments seeing I do not have a child, so I won't understand how it is to be protective and care for them.

however, recent post on racism is really disturbing, so am posing a question to ask all dear forumers. pls don't flame me, just asking for clarification.

1. if everyone is really a racist, are we a hypocrite when we make friends with those who are not of our own race?

I looked up on the word racist (been pondering on this subject eversince watching the movie Crash).

2. if everyone is really a racist, what future is there for this country?

3. if racism is not curbed (which I feel Malaysians although might make insensitive remarks, but do they really mean it in their heart?), why/how can we co-exist for so long?

4. personally, i feel that when we are sensitive of the racism issue ourselves, then racism will become an issue to u(boy, had this huge issue just recently). if that is the case, this is a never ending issue, it will be carried down to our next and next and next generation. then racism will be forever an issue.

footnote : by this doesn't mean i support any political parties/races. its an observation which has perturbed me for quite a while. since we are on this topic, i want to ask fellow USJrians. (kwchang, if this is inappropriate, pls remove it.)

on NS, racism or no racism, it is a badly cooked-up idea, implemented and managed (to me). as usual, those who administered it hoped to 'perfect' it thru trial and error (at the expense of others). I wouldn't say totally scrap it, there are still ways to improve it. if that is to be so, halt the whole thing altogether, do some investigation into it and hopefully when they re-launch it, nothing like what happened before will happen again.

pepsi
25-04-2007, 09:42 PM
Just because the title is narrowly formulated, doesn't mean that we should limit ourselves to merely discussing the spelling of pointlessness.
Isa, correct, we shouldn't narrow it, however, you are banging your head against a brick wall. The wall isn't going to move, you have to get around it or would you rather bulldoze through it :)
Come up with something we can work on.

orchipalar
25-04-2007, 10:00 PM
Come up with something we can work on.Err buddy...perhaps Saudara IsaRahim...has not repeated it enough...coz him being mostly away abroad...

VOTE against the WRONGED...INJUSTICED...CORRUPTED...BIASED...LOPSID ED...SENGET... EXTREMISM...RACIST... UPSIDE DOWN...DACHING!

pepsi
25-04-2007, 10:02 PM
Food for thought

When I was in school, the word racist was never in my vocabulary(except in the dictionary) although my dad, a civil servant kept harping on migrating to Australia because he felt his children would have a better future elsewhere, than in Malaysia where he was subjected to an unfair atmosphere. He was bypass for promotion on several occasions, to the point he was reporting to his juniors. He worked very hard and was very good at his job because his boss trusted him with the accounts. Accurate and clean but never got the position because he did not pass the Bahasa Malaysia oral interview. I never took him seriously until I started working and I started to see "colours" practised among colleagues but I still tried to play fair by not taking sides with colleagues of same colours if they were rude or in the wrong. Now in schools the lines are even clearer because of the presence of vernacular schools and agama schools. The national schools popularity is declining, even more with more racist sentiments. A lot just don't care anymore about unity, so they take care of their own as long as everyone can be polite and obligingy accomadate one another . As long, as they can make a living and live peacefully. That is all they ask for now. Sorry going out of the context here.

sinleong
25-04-2007, 10:11 PM
pepsi, you are within context and hitting the nail right on the spot. you correctly pointed out that what is the use of us spending hundreds of millions on a program to unite but yet our system tends to be divisive anyway.

sinleong
25-04-2007, 10:18 PM
Wake up! We are living in Malaysia! We eat, sleep and breath racism every second of our lives. :rolleyes: We are divided along racial lines. Don't even try to tell me that you are not a racist.

We are a racist when we say in passing:
most business folks are chinamen;
usually the robbers are Indons
The robbery was committed by Indians etc and etc...

like it or not, this is a racist country with a racist system. there is no program that can unite the people as long as the system is racist. never mind 3 months, put the kids over 30 years of NS cannot erase the racism that exists here.

what we have effectively is like apartheid, special rights, quotas and even the practice of serving beef at government or palace events - no respect for the rights of other religion. please note, i am only mentioning... i am not questioning the special rights... because it is against the law to question...

isarahim
26-04-2007, 12:22 AM
It could be because of the NEP, but I think the main contributor is really ourselves.
I think otherwise. Individual racism is a completely different cup of tea than systematic racism.

No matter how much education, mixing, campaigns, well meant words etc, the former cannot bridge or smooth over the latter.

It will still be like curing chicken pox with makeup powder.

The key fundamental and overarching principle needs to be put in place first: every human being should be equal in the face of the law.

If this principle is not in place, other actions can only bring cosmetic and temporary effects, even with the best intentions in the world.

isarahim
26-04-2007, 12:27 AM
Isa, correct, we shouldn't narrow it, however, you are banging your head against a brick wall.
Maybe I am. Only future can tell. But it's an extremely ugly wall. An abomination. I rather keep on banging the whole wall than, de facto, acknowledging defeat by attempting to polish individual bricks.

And this is the problem with this discussion. By starting to polish individual bricks, you are unintentionally sending out the message that you accept or succumb to the existence of the wall. And I think this is the wrong message to send.

isarahim
26-04-2007, 12:35 AM
Ahem...more Malaysians...old or young...should 1st vote against these non-conformist political parties... (http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/media/2/20070421-Son-in-Law_Ijok.jpg)n...(notice how they mis-spelled the word Temberang? must have done it repeatedly on purpose!:
Indeed I agree.

isarahim
26-04-2007, 12:44 AM
We eat, sleep and breath racism every second of our lives. We are divided along racial lines. Don't even try to tell me that you are not a racist.
I beg to differ. We are not. Racism is something which is imposed from above. From politics. From the fact that everyone in this country is not equal in the face of the law. In general, it doesn't emanate from people.

Race focussed slurs and jargon are NOT the same as racism. Such things exist in every country in the world.

Eastern Citizen
26-04-2007, 01:50 PM
Wake up! We are living in Malaysia! We eat, sleep and breath racism every second of our lives. :rolleyes: We are divided along racial lines. Don't even try to tell me that you are not a racist.

We are a racist when we say in passing:
most business folks are chinamen;
usually the robbers are Indons
The robbery was committed by Indians etc and etc...
Just because things are divided along racial lines is NO excuse to be racist. That would like saying, "He/She started it...........". I am sure that many here would have some time or other been a victim of racial and religious discrimination. Again, that is no excuse for harbouring racial and religious prejudices.

It is indeed quite sad to see that there are some people here who freely proclaim themselves to be racist. It is even sadder still to see others defending such views. No amount of justifying or moralising can ever make this right. Some things in life are just plain wrong.

I accept that this country isn't paradise but it is HOME. What is so wrong about wishing, hoping and working towards making this a better place for all? Before we accuse others, we must look within ourselves and ask ourselves whether indeed we can do better. Racial and religious bigotry are some of the fundamental ills plaguing our country. It is only a shame that the very people entrusted by the Rakyat to manage our country have betrayed the ideals that this country was founded upon by perpetuating division along communal lines.

It is precisely the views have been aired at this forum have given rise to the rationale for the need of having our type of National Service. In principle, I really think that its not a bad idea but sadly it has been poorly managed and whatever benefits that may be derived, do not justify the high cost involved.

lord
26-04-2007, 02:09 PM
Eastern Citizen, I respect your thoughts and though they seem to be a noble one, it is in my opinion that it is far from reality. There were millions like you once but sad to say the number has dwindled.

It's not so much as "He/She started it...........". For some, it's a matter of principles, even survival. So, don't be so quick to pre-judge ones ideologies and pass it as wrong. Obviously, your beliefs differ from mine. But that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. While you cling on to a believe that things can and will change for the better, I've just taken the opposite road and decided to live in a real environment.

Just out of curiosity, may I know what is your race? :)

iml109
26-04-2007, 03:44 PM
I beg to differ. We are not. Racism is something which is imposed from above. From politics. From the fact that everyone in this country is not equal in the face of the law. In general, it doesn't emanate from people.
Race focussed slurs and jargon are NOT the same as racism. Such things exist in every country in the world.

Isa has pointed out what I think. ;)

umadavid
26-04-2007, 04:43 PM
What would you say when racism is in fact indeed taught in selected kindergartens in Malaysia! My friend's son was taught that he must not mix with people of other race because they are "kafir". :( So he came home and told his Mom that she was "kafir" because his teacher said so! My friend was shocked and removed him from the said kindergarten which had teachers who are brain washing the young ones. BTW, my friend is a muslim convert.

I have often observed young children from a certain race looking terrified and hiding behind their parents back in supermarkets when they see people of other races as if they will be seriously contaminated by even looking at them. I can only imagine what they had been taught :eek: One wonders what they will be like when they grow up.

My daughters and I have friends of all races and and religion and mix freely. We have no problems with each other except when we go out to eat then it has to be halal place. The problem arises when it may be halal for Muslims but it certainly is not for Hindus ;)

jtl
26-04-2007, 04:59 PM
The problem arises when it may be halal for Muslims but it certainly is not for Hindus ;)

Can eat vegetarian food. Safe for all :p

On another note, when we have parties and invite friends of different religions, we don't serve beef and pork.

umadavid
26-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Yeah, but nowadays most time when you invite muslim friends for party, they come early, show face and then say they are sorry that they cannot stay for dinner/lunch because of prior appointment...just a polite way of saying they don't wanna eat because they don't know your chicken is halal or not, lagi definitely your utensil are not.

we didn't have this sort of behaviour 25 or 30 years ago. I remember, my parents' friends dropping by and eating and enjoying food and company without any comments about it being halal or not. Of course, we made sure that pork was not in the menu. :D

fabregas
26-04-2007, 07:46 PM
I think otherwise. Individual racism is a completely different cup of tea than systematic racism.

No matter how much education, mixing, campaigns, well meant words etc, the former cannot bridge or smooth over the latter.

It will still be like curing chicken pox with makeup powder.

The key fundamental and overarching principle needs to be put in place first: every human being should be equal in the face of the law.

If this principle is not in place, other actions can only bring cosmetic and temporary effects, even with the best intentions in the world.

Yes racism is being proliferated/amplified by politics, but that is because racism exists within the society we live in. Take Pauline Hanson, the nationalistic racist was voted into the Australian parliament many years ago, because people agreed with her that Asians were taking over the country. Then people came to their senses and voted her out. If most Malaysians think racism is wrong and they think the govt policy is racist - why do most people vote them in? Its because they support this racist tendencies - Chinese mostly vote for Chinese, Indians mostly vote for Indians and Malays mostly vote for Malays. Even PKR understands that and fielded a Malay candidate in a Malay majority area in Ijiok. Thats not to say I am not impressed with the PKR candidate's credentials. Why doesn't Lim Kit Siang challenge Badawi , etc. Even opposition parties understand this racist voting. Why did Lim Kit Siang think the best state for DAP to control is Penang (a Chinese majority area). The racism at socity level and politics feeds each other. Its like a symbiotic relationship.

Having said that racism is like every other imperfections we all have, which we can control and improve on. In the 60's, US whites have gone against whites to fight for black rights. Some whites have even died for the cause. Actually in the US civil war, some whites actually fought to free black slaves. Here even for charity, its the Chinese who will organise a fund raiser for a Chinese, the Indians for the Indians and Malays for Malays (OK, things improving a bit). How do we improve, with more mingling, seeking to understand each other and more constructive forums like this. In Malaysia, we don't like to talk about this openly.

Eastern Citizen
28-04-2007, 03:57 PM
Yes racism is being proliferated/amplified by politics, but that is because racism exists within the society we live in.

..........If most Malaysians think racism is wrong and they think the govt policy is racist - why do most people vote them in? Its because they support this racist tendencies........... The racism at socity level and politics feeds each other. Its like a symbiotic relationship.

.................... How do we improve, with more mingling, seeking to understand each other and more constructive forums like this. In Malaysia, we don't like to talk about this openly.

The trouble is that many Malaysians are unable to have considered, frank and open discussions without resorting to name calling and getting personal. Please take note that I said many Malaysians, NOT all Malaysians and certainly NOT most Malaysians.

Eastern Citizen
28-04-2007, 04:05 PM
Yeah, but nowadays most time when you invite muslim friends for party, they come early, show face and then say they are sorry that they cannot stay for dinner/lunch because of prior appointment...just a polite way of saying they don't wanna eat because they don't know your chicken is halal or not, lagi definitely your utensil are not.

we didn't have this sort of behaviour 25 or 30 years ago. I remember, my parents' friends dropping by and eating and enjoying food and company without any comments about it being halal or not. Of course, we made sure that pork was not in the menu. :D

I think that religion is a very personal thing. We should not condemn others for their relgious beliefs although telling people to please stop ramming their beliefs down your throat is another matter entirely. In short, the very simple act of visiting your house, to me, shows a form of compromise and that they thought well enough of you to take the trouble to visit your home.

If somebody feels strongly about the halal issue, so be it. Similarly, if a vegetarian feels that they really cannot eat at your house, then let it be. Making someone compromise on their religious beliefs (so long as they are purely personal) is in itself wrong.

Eastern Citizen
28-04-2007, 04:28 PM
Eastern Citizen, I respect your thoughts and though they seem to be a noble one, it is in my opinion that it is far from reality. There were millions like you once but sad to say the number has dwindled.

It's not so much as "He/She started it...........". For some, it's a matter of principles, even survival. So, don't be so quick to pre-judge ones ideologies and pass it as wrong. Obviously, your beliefs differ from mine. But that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. While you cling on to a believe that things can and will change for the better, I've just taken the opposite road and decided to live in a real environment.

Just out of curiosity, may I know what is your race? :)

There is nothing noble about my views. There are just simply, my views. Many people in this country share them but as you say, perhaps the numbers are dwindling, and for that I really do mourn. However, I do have my views and you have yours and I cannot and will NOT even attempt to try to change your point of view on racism as it appears to be very ingrained.

On the matter of prejudging one's ideology, I think that nearly the whole world over believes that racism is inherently wrong. Even the USA OFFICIALLY believes it to be wrong despite the many racially motivated conflicts that they seem to have, hence they are very fond of using the words, ".....regardless of race, colour or creed".

Anyway, nuff said. I don't mean to sound "holier than thou" but it is just something that I believe very strongly in.

As for my ethnicity, I think that my ehtnic background really isn't relevant for this forum save to say that my ethnic origin has not allowed me to benefit from any affirmative action policies that this government has practiced.

umadavid
28-04-2007, 04:33 PM
In other words, the implication here is that those people of yesteryears were compromising their religious beliefs by eating at other peoples' houses other than those of their own religion?? :confused: I don't think so. How can it be alright then and not now?

Beliefs are indeed personal so I hope people don't get too upset when others return the same favour to you next time you invite them. ;)

pepsi
30-04-2007, 06:05 PM
Ask ourselves this question. When we see someone in need of help, do we turn a blind eye because they are different "colour"? If your answer is "No" than you are not a racist, however you maybe be bitter about the unfair system.
I believe anyone with a conscience would see beyond the "colours" .
Do we go around intentionally targetting, harming a certain race ? No, but we are apprehensive, suspicious and cautious....about their intentions.
Between, we are out of the context, in this thread :D
Sorry

isarahim
30-04-2007, 07:01 PM
Yes racism is being proliferated/amplified by politics, but that is because racism exists within the society we live in.....If most Malaysians think racism is wrong and they think the govt policy is racist - why do most people vote them in? Its because they support this racist tendencies - Chinese mostly vote for Chinese, Indians mostly vote for Indians and Malays mostly vote for Malays.
I agree with this to some extent, but the whole framework of the society remains the laws of the country. If the laws of the country - starting with the constitution - contains elements of racisms, the whole society is slave to it. You cannot expect people to vote along non-racial lines when the very definition of the country has racist elements. Everyone here is not equal in the face of the law.

You can never convincingly ask people to just mix as normal and pretend that it doesn't exist. Because it does.

It's about systematic racism as opposed to minority or underprivileged groups driven racism.

fabregas
30-04-2007, 10:13 PM
I agree with this to some extent, but the whole framework of the society remains the laws of the country. If the laws of the country - starting with the constitution - contains elements of racisms, the whole society is slave to it. You cannot expect people to vote along non-racial lines when the very definition of the country has racist elements. Everyone here is not equal in the face of the law.

You can never convincingly ask people to just mix as normal and pretend that it doesn't exist. Because it does.

It's about systematic racism as opposed to minority or underprivileged groups driven racism.

Where I am getting at is that we need a holistic approach to reforms. From what I understand, you are calling for reforms in the govt and its racist policies by just changing govts. Yes, that would work in a society that is mostly non racist or in a mainly homogenous society. But in Malaysia, its much more complicated than that. Here we have to convince voters to disregard the colour and faith of the candidates and vote for candidates that can perform the best job. Also, the voters have to want reforms as well. Maybe BN is still in power because most voters want the policies to stay. So the reforms is not just of our race based political system but also the psyche of the Malaysian public. There is this complicated interdependence which must be tackled together. It cannot be just one or the other. When Raja Nazrin, talked about the respecting diversity and individual rights regardless of race, it was not just aimed the political parties, or government but also at the ordinary folks.

sinleong
30-04-2007, 11:55 PM
Where I am getting at is that we need a holistic approach to reforms. From what I understand, you are calling for reforms in the govt and its racist policies by just changing govts. Yes, that would work in a society that is mostly non racist or in a mainly homogenous society. But in Malaysia, its much more complicated than that. Here we have to convince voters to disregard the colour and faith of the candidates and vote for candidates that can perform the best job. Also, the voters have to want reforms as well. Maybe BN is still in power because most voters want the policies to stay. So the reforms is not just of our race based political system but also the psyche of the Malaysian public. There is this complicated interdependence which must be tackled together. It cannot be just one or the other. When Raja Nazrin, talked about the respecting diversity and individual rights regardless of race, it was not just aimed the political parties, or government but also at the ordinary folks.

So here we go... coming back to the topic about this NS thing. Do you think the NS would be effective as long as the system is racist? What's the point and objectives of trying to integrate teenagers when at the end of the day, the crux of the problem is not solved?
Isn't it a big waste of money?

fabregas
01-05-2007, 12:17 AM
no - lah, its not the NS thing. What I just mention can be achieved by other means. But the discussion is in the wrong thread. Sorry.

isarahim
01-05-2007, 02:37 AM
From what I understand, you are calling for reforms in the govt and its racist policies by just changing govts.
Changing government is the best possible start. But the 'just changing' has never been in any of my calls; that's your 'addition'. BTW, there are quite a few more reasons to change government....

Here we have to convince voters to disregard the colour and faith of the candidates and vote for candidates that can perform the best job.
There was a time when we had municipal elections in this country. During that time, quite a few people were elected based on their ability to do the job. Since many of those happened to be non-BN, BN abolished municipal elections. This has meant that all our politicians today have risen through the party ranks and not by demonstrating performance.

There is this complicated interdependence which must be tackled together.
You are painting a picture of extreme complexities. Being holistic sounds nice, but I disagree that this is so complex. One of BN's spins the last 20 years has been to create this 'illusion of fragile racial balance which (of course) only they can handle and no-one else'. Well they've been successful, but it doesn't mean it's true.

orchipalar
01-05-2007, 09:23 AM
Err buddies...while the NS issue is hotly debated in here...

23 NS trainees have gone missing in jungle trekking... (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/5/1/nation/17601682&sec=nation)

FineTuned
01-05-2007, 11:47 AM
Err buddies...while the NS issue is hotly debated in here...
NS trainees have gone missing in jungle trekking...
After reading yesterday's NS advertorial (4 pages!) in the Star, and then reading about the missing kids + instructor this morning, I can't help but feel the irony in these two related events.

There's nothing in the NS program that is not already covered by the existing School Education System. The NS program is another unwelcome drain on the already limited resources provided to the schools.

Can any NS supporter in this forum point out to me just one aspect of the NS program that our current Education System cannot provide to our kids?

pepsi
01-05-2007, 12:15 PM
After reading yesterday's NS advertorial (4 pages!) in the Star, and then reading about the missing kids + instructor this morning, I can't help but feel the irony in these two related events.

There's nothing in the NS program that is not already covered by the existing School Education System. The NS program is another unwelcome drain on the already limited resources provided to the schools.

Can any NS supporter in this forum point out to me just one aspect of the NS program that our current Education System cannot provide to our kids?
Do we really believe everything in the School Education System is practised at every school ? If everything in the NS program is covered in the Education System, those attending NS won't be having such a hard time. Been there , seen it, done it. right ? ;)

pepsi
01-05-2007, 12:23 PM
Err buddies...while the NS issue is hotly debated in here...

23 NS trainees have gone missing in jungle trekking... (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/5/1/nation/17601682&sec=nation)
Yes, news of people getting lost while jungle trekking, mountain climbing, hiking, take a walk in the wildlife park, gets in the papers.It happens but this one gets special attention because it's NS .Not that I don't symphatise with the parents of these children, it can happen to any group going on this trips. Paid or privately organised trips. Take your pick.
Between, I hope they find their way back soon, unscathed or there will be another " field day" for those against the NS program.

FineTuned
01-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Been there, seen it, done it. right ? ;)
So you agree that all these activities in the NS program already exist in the schools? What the NS is saying is that the schools are not doing the job, so let's take it over.

Let's translate your logic to the `government'. The government is not doing its job, so let's take it over. And ad nauseam.

No, we need to support, refresh and strengthen what we have been neglecting in our schools. If we keep setting up new programs to supersede our Education System, we weaken the whole structure and render the Education System less relevant to our society. The resources of the NS program should be incorporated into the school system, and not run as an independent short termed activity which will only benefit a very limited number of our next generation.

Our Education System is here to stay. Not the NS program, which is already in bad need of patching and fixing. Do we need another distraction? Perhaps you feel that all these incidences at the NS camps are perfectly normal? So we are blowing them out of proportion just because it's NS? No, if NS is as good as you claim, then I should rightly expect a higher standard of operation. Why put so much resources into a program and expect only normal things to happen?

pepsi
01-05-2007, 01:21 PM
Do we really believe everything in the School Education System is practised at every school ? If everything in the NS program is covered in the Education System, those attending NS won't be having such a hard time. Been there , seen it, done it. right ? ;)
Please read those highlighted in BOLD. Sorry if I gave the wrong picture :D

FineTuned
01-05-2007, 02:54 PM
Please read those highlighted in BOLD.
Yes, many things are not being practised in our schools, as you have rightly pointed out in bold, but I noticed you didn't deny the programs are already there in our schools. Are you saying that the NS is practising everything it is suppose to do?

Those who have been involved in the appropriate physical cum social activities such as scouting and sports will find NS easy. Those who don't regularly partake of these extra-curricula events will struggle in NS. But this merely shows that we have neglected this particular role of the school system. If you enforced this in school, the same way NS is being made compulsory for those selected, then there is no reason for NS to exist. And we will have an all round better Education System which will benefit nearly the entire population of our next generation instead of a few.

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to point out what is so unique about the NS program that the schools do not/cannot also implement to good effect.

Pboey
01-05-2007, 08:12 PM
Yes, many things are not being practised in our schools, as you have rightly pointed out in bold, but I noticed you didn't deny the programs are already there in our schools. Are you saying that the NS is practising everything it is suppose to do?

Those who have been involved in the appropriate physical cum social activities such as scouting and sports will find NS easy. Those who don't regularly partake of these extra-curricula events will struggle in NS. But this merely shows that we have neglected this particular role of the school system. If you enforced this in school, the same way NS is being made compulsory for those selected, then there is no reason for NS to exist. And we will have an all round better Education System which will benefit nearly the entire population of our next generation instead of a few.

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to point out what is so unique about the NS program that the schools do not/cannot also implement to good effect.

The summary of training module is on the website..i think it is
khidmatnegara.gov.my -> just try and google ./ yahoo it.

Just a few questions i'm currently pondering about

1) Would it be feasible to implement current NS programme in school?
(With kids having to attend tuition / study / extra curricular activities)
2) What would the student commitment be --> compulsary/optional?
3) Will there be enough qualified trainers to run it nationwide?
4) Why not focus on the quality of educational syllabus instead of mashing NS programmes into school curriculum? Don;t think the poor kids can cope.
5) Physical training modules should not be related to school athletes / scouts right? **Spend less time in front of computer/tv...take the initiative to do more sports/outdoor activities**

just my thoughts. cya.

FineTuned
01-05-2007, 11:38 PM
Thanks, Pboey. Your response is on track with what I was trying to determine.

1. We do not need to implement NS in schools. The elements and aims of NS are already in the school system. If anything, the NS itself is a crash course duplication of many principles we are teaching our children in school.

2. Is Education compulsory or optional?

3. Our school teachers are highly trained professionals in their relative fields. We have training colleges and universities to produce new teachers. By comparison, NS trainers currently are a bunch of volunteer amateurs trying to do things ad hoc. Look at yesterday's farce. Luckily none of the trainees were seriously injured. Are our children to be guinea pigs while waiting for the NS organisers learn to train the trainers?

4 & 5. Education should not be merely academic in nature. `A sound mind in a sound body' is and has always been a driving principle of the task of bringing up our children. It is not true that our kids have no time for physical/outdoor activities. Our problem is that we have allowed the paper chase to become too important, to the detriment of the physical health of our children. Having the NS program will not correct that imbalance for the vast majority of our children.

pepsi
07-05-2007, 05:58 PM
The summary of training module is on the website..i think it is
khidmatnegara.gov.my -> just try and google ./ yahoo it.

Just a few questions i'm currently pondering about

1) Would it be feasible to implement current NS programme in school?
(With kids having to attend tuition / study / extra curricular activities)
2) What would the student commitment be --> compulsary/optional?
3) Will there be enough qualified trainers to run it nationwide?
4) Why not focus on the quality of educational syllabus instead of mashing NS programmes into school curriculum? Don;t think the poor kids can cope.
5) Physical training modules should not be related to school athletes / scouts right? **Spend less time in front of computer/tv...take the initiative to do more sports/outdoor activities**

just my thoughts. cya.
Thanks Pboey for the reply when I was not available.
Well said and I couldn't have done it better.

pepsi
07-05-2007, 06:03 PM
Thanks, Pboey. Your response is on track with what I was trying to determine.

1. We do not need to implement NS in schools. The elements and aims of NS are already in the school system. If anything, the NS itself is a crash course duplication of many principles we are teaching our children in school.

2. Is Education compulsory or optional?

3. Our school teachers are highly trained professionals in their relative fields. We have training colleges and universities to produce new teachers. By comparison, NS trainers currently are a bunch of volunteer amateurs trying to do things ad hoc. Look at yesterday's farce. Luckily none of the trainees were seriously injured. Are our children to be guinea pigs while waiting for the NS organisers learn to train the trainers?

4 & 5. Education should not be merely academic in nature. `A sound mind in a sound body' is and has always been a driving principle of the task of bringing up our children. It is not true that our kids have no time for physical/outdoor activities. Our problem is that we have allowed the paper chase to become too important, to the detriment of the physical health of our children. Having the NS program will not correct that imbalance for the vast majority of our children.
There is no 100% or full proof plan. Even doctors and surgeons make mistakes. We definitely cannot correct the imbalance 100% but we do hope we can make a difference to as many as possible.
Better to love than not love at all . :p :p