Woman fails in bid to renounce Islam

[Shaneburger]

from:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/Thursday/National/20070329080246/Article/index_html

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The applicant’s father was a Muslim while her mother, a Sino-Kadazan, converted when the couple got married.

( Admin note - other contents removed. Please do not copy-paste - just link to site for others to access )
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WOW! so my learned syariah judge, what actions are permissible according to Muslims laws?

[bugbear]

It is a catch 22 situation. If one want to renounce Islam, please refer to Syariah court which by itself cannot permit Muslim from renouncing Islam. There will be no solution for muslim to renounce islam in Malaysia period.
On one hand, she must show proof that she is leading a non-muslim lifestyle while on the other hand by doing so publicly can be hazardous to herself as she would be subjected to the full law of the syariah. :confused: It is a no go situation.

[Sentinel]

The question here is WHICH IS SUPREME? The Federal Constitution under which ALL Malaysians are subjected to or the Syariah Courts, under which ALL Malaysian Muslims are subjected to??? :confused:

[bugbear]

The question here is WHICH IS SUPREME? The Federal Constitution under which ALL Malaysians are subjected to or the Syariah Courts, under which ALL Malaysian Muslims are subjected to??? :confused:
I think here lies the MOTHER of all law question in Malaysia. How can one get justice when even the judges of the land themselves are utterly confused? It gives rise to the situation whereby one judge will see it one way and another the other way. I wonder what is the constitution is for? :confused:

[KelvC]

i guess it's more logical and practical to do it abroad

[CCY]

Take a look at what this lawyer says....n his brush with the situation.
http://malikimtiaz.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

[firefox]

In this country of ours its easy to convert and embrace islam but dont ever decide of renoucing this religion it will never happen..its a loss case for whatever valid reasons you have. Once you are a muslim you are a muslim for life in this country lets remember that.

[bugbear]

Alas, some people let their flesh rule over their head when they decide to marry muslim. That and the subsequent folly will be their lot for the reminder of their life on earth unless they found peace in Islam. For these people, they cannot really complain cos they did it on their free will and therefore will face the music later. As an english adage put it, "Don't let trouble, troubles you; unless trouble, troubles you."

[xaviers]

maybe they kena jampi...

[USJ27Resident]

I have a question for the Moslem faithfuls... ( AllUrban included... )

" Would you give up your faith that you were born into, for the person you love? "

If the answer is straightforward "no"... then why does the religiously religious people from PERKIM and the rest of the Islamic councils/bodies in Malaysia insist that a non-moslem have to give up their faith for the person that they love... otherwise, don't dream about marrying the man/woman that you love..

My 2 sens. Hmmmm.... touche!

[pcyeoh]

There is a saying that says you can bring a horse to the water but you can't force it to drink in. In this case, they are drowning it.

[cool]

There are also religous teachers that taught new converts to let go their existing linkage with their parents or brothers or roots for the sake of the new religion. Salute you CK bin Abdullah, really kacang lupakan kulit.

[USJ27Resident]

Hello all...

Lets not turn this thread into negative views/bashing of Islam, rather let discuss about the 'so-called' religious people that are entrusted to safe-guard its sanctity. Do they make rulings and laws based on their interpretation or directly from the Holy Book?

If a person doesn't believe in the faith anymore, why keep/force that person to remain in the faith?

Likewise my earlier [very valid] question... even in neighbouring Indonesia, they don't force a person to convert if he/she falls in love with a moslem (or vice versa!). But here,.. well, to put it bluntly - you fall in love with a moslem - and tak mahu convert, its either moving overseas or underground... sad but true!

We can discuss this - but I am hoping that my earlier question gets a true and open answer... from a Muslim forummer here..

[USJ27Resident]

We can discuss this - but I am hoping that my earlier question gets a true and open answer... from a Muslim forummer here..

Strange ... not a single comment, Q&A or feedback to my earlier question (from anyone!)... I wonder why...

[acdra]

USJ27Resident, I'll answer a few of your questions for you.

1. Would you give up your faith that you were born into, for the person you love?

No. Not because it is the faith that I was born into, but because I am convinced that it is the right faith to follow.

2. If the answer is straightforward "no"... then why does the religiously religious people from PERKIM and the rest of the Islamic councils/bodies in Malaysia insist that a non-moslem have to give up their faith for the person that they love

Because Islam does not permit a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim, other than those who practice the Jewish faith, and Christians who follow the Laws of Moses and do not consider Jesus or the Holy Spirit to be part of God (don't know if there are still any around today).

A non-Muslim need not give up his/her faith for the person he/she loves, and I don't think it is "right" for a person to change faith because of the person he/she loves. It is only right to change faith when a person is convinced that it is the right faith to follow, not because of love for another human being.

A non-Muslim can choose to keep his/her religion, forget about marrying the person he/she loves, and marry someone else who is not a Muslim. After all, faith should rank higher in importance compared to love for another person.

3. If a person doesn't believe in the faith anymore, why keep/force that person to remain in the faith?

Absolutely no reason to do so.

However, no court can determine a person's religion. No court can prevent a person from renouncing his/her religion. If a person no longer has faith in his/her religion, then he/she is no longer a follower of that religion.

Courts can only officially declare a person's faith, but cannot determine it. Therefore, in reality, a person who renounces his/her religion is no longer a follower of that religion, no matter how the courts rule.

[sulynx]

Courts can only officially declare a person's faith, but cannot determine it. Therefore, in reality, a person who renounces his/her religion is no longer a follower of that religion, no matter how the courts rule.

that's true, but at the end of the day, the law prevails. if one does not lead a muslim life but and dies, that person would be buried the muslim way because he is recognised as a muslim by the law. for someone who doesn't lead a muslim lifestyle, he definitely doesn't deserve a muslim burial, but then the law's the law, isn't it?

[yvonnefoong]

I personally feel, unless the person fully believes in the religion he/she is converting to, they shouldn't do it for the sake of another. What if the relationship doesn't work out in the end, such as divorce? Then is your new faith in that religion dying too? Our Lord said do not set our sight on men. (I shall not elaborate further or this would become a religious thread. hehe)

I feel, if a person is strong in faith, who is firm in his beliefs, he is not easily swayed in faith. So for a FAITHFUL person to decide converting to another religion, he must have considered it thoroughly. And if it is otherwise, then we may ask if the man is faithful at all.

Hmmm... I think what I said might have been a little out of topic. Please excuse me. :D

[Kenneth20]

All these man made laws in Malaysia...sigh...

All I want is to be a free man and love the 'God' i know...

:P

[cypaq]

For me, my religious convictions shall always be my personal matter. I do not want nor need other people to tell me whether I am practising my faith adequately or not. Who are we to judge on these matters that concerns God? Let each of us stand up for himself/herself when we meet our maker.

It is cases like this that convince me that there should be a separation between state and religion.

[Alfred88]

Alas, if the person you love, loves you as much should not have made you change your faith or believes. It is you whom he or she loves. Ask the person, is she or he willing to get married with you overseas? Legally you arte both still a married couple. No law can renouce that fact. So many people in the middle east migrate and never come back because they just want to be with the person they love. It will not be love when you demand someone to change his believe. Today he or she can change his entire life's believe, tomorrow he or she can change you.

Fro children born into a religon, be it muslim, christian or otherwise. They should be allow to change their faith at the time of adulthood. To take that rights away is like being born a slave with no choice or human rights.

Syariah law. Technically there is no such thing as syariah law. If there is then there will be a standard body governing syariah law for all muslim countries. Each muslim country has their own version of Syariah. Some adapted it to fit in the changing society but yet not betraying their believe. Most country change it to suit the thinking of fanatics and political reason.

From the day we are born, we are being taugh about the rights of choices we can make. The individuality that define us from mere animals. It was never the intention of any religon that take that rights away. It people that take that rights away. Blame not the religon, blame the people welding the tools for their satisfaction.

900 years ago, the Pope weld the tools of religon to war against muslim. Chistian has been taugh that their sins can be wash away by muslim blood. Through that the save eupore from being rampage of constant war. 200 years later, war still rampage throughout eupore. Through war and chaos muslim were made better, smarter and stronger thus cause the fall of Byantine empire, the chocking point where muslim power would spread to eupore. Only then did the christian stop their idiotic crusade with swords pointing at their necks.

700 years later today, man have yet learn their lesson. There are many people out there using religon as their own tools as if they were themselves the second coming.

Alas, we are but all slave. Slave to our religon, our culture and our desire. If Malaysia is willing to take the 1st step to show to the world that they are willing to unslave themselves of religon and race; where no laws can be uphold or made against another for political, self desire or monetary reason. Malaysia can be the next strong power. Unfortunate people here still have macro understanding. All we can do now is accept it and wait for the next century of mental evolution among asian.

[acdra]

I personally feel, unless the person fully believes in the religion he/she is converting to, they shouldn't do it for the sake of another. What if the relationship doesn't work out in the end, such as divorce? Then is your new faith in that religion dying too? Our Lord said do not set our sight on men. (I shall not elaborate further or this would become a religious thread. hehe)

I feel, if a person is strong in faith, who is firm in his beliefs, he is not easily swayed in faith. So for a FAITHFUL person to decide converting to another religion, he must have considered it thoroughly. And if it is otherwise, then we may ask if the man is faithful at all.

Hmmm... I think what I said might have been a little out of topic. Please excuse me. :D
It's not out of topic, Yvonne. I think others have made some sort of reference to the same thing. Changing religion in order to get married is being a hypocrite to the new religion - and an apostate to the old. It's making fun of God.

But then, many people are born into a religion. They don't practice it and they don't have faith in it.

[acdra]

Courts can only officially declare a person's faith, but cannot determine it. Therefore, in reality, a person who renounces his/her religion is no longer a follower of that religion, no matter how the courts rule.

that's true, but at the end of the day, the law prevails. if one does not lead a muslim life but and dies, that person would be buried the muslim way because he is recognised as a muslim by the law. for someone who doesn't lead a muslim lifestyle, he definitely doesn't deserve a muslim burial, but then the law's the law, isn't it?
Yes, this is a problem. It really does not make sense for the courts to legally bind a person to a religion that he/she has renounced. Lina Joy comes to mind. I don't understand what legal basis (sharia) they use to make these decisions.

[sulynx]

Yes, this is a problem. It really does not make sense for the courts to legally bind a person to a religion that he/she has renounced. Lina Joy comes to mind. I don't understand what legal basis (sharia) they use to make these decisions.

it feels like they're not allowing any exceptions to the rule of renouncing islam because they're afraid that once there is a precedent case set, there might be many others who would try to do the same too. we know that there are many muslims who are not muslims by their own free will, eg. born into a muslim family but do not lead, nor want to lead, a muslim lifestyle, or people who have hastily married muslim spouses and want to renounce islam after a divorce.

[cool]

Still i dont understand why it is so important to have quantity over quality of followers. Does converting one and add a number to the statistic proves that the religion is popular or the right choice?. I had a friend who had converted for the sake of marriage and yet enjoying bakuteh, so is that a quality follower?. Anyhow he was forced to do so after summon from syariah court. And fellow christians out there, please do not blame muslims alone in this matter. Church members too use other ways to convince non christians to convert upon marriage. What a pity to those from hindus and buddhist. Should i say they are unfortunate or unfaithful to their religion. For me, beliefs is a matter of choice.

[kwchang]

Please remember that whatever your opinion is, we are still bound by man-made laws. If a law had been created, written and gazetted, it cannot be disobeyed. Simple isn't it? The way to fight a decision is to prove in court that the interpretation of the law is flawed. If the law is water-tight, then all the opinions in the world will not reverse the decision.

So, are some of you banging your head against the wall? Did you think posting your opinions here would change the law? I don't think so.

[Sentinel]

Please remember that whatever your opinion is, we are still bound by man-made laws. If a law had been created, written and gazetted, it cannot be disobeyed. Simple isn't it? The way to fight a decision is to prove in court that the interpretation of the law is flawed. If the law is water-tight, then all the opinions in the world will not reverse the decision.

So, are some of you banging your head against the wall? Did you think posting your opinions here would change the law? I don't think so.

Yes & no Chang. But making a difference at the ballot boxes during the general election will change the lawmakers who decide on the law, I'm a little more optimistic than you in this topic, I think no matter how long it takes, things will one day change. It needs to be changed!

[acdra]

it feels like they're not allowing any exceptions to the rule of renouncing islam because they're afraid that once there is a precedent case set, there might be many others who would try to do the same too.
Probably true. I believe it's politics, not religion.

Consider this:

"Malay" is defined as a person who follows Malay traditions, speaks Malay and is a Muslim (something like that). This is the only instance that I have heard of a race being defined by a religion.

So if it is easy to renounce Islam and, over time (perhaps decades), many Malays do so, then they are technically no longer "Malays" and therefore cannot be members of UMNO. UMNO will become weak.

Does this reasoning make any sense?? Just my thoughts. :)

[orchipalar]

Err...please correct Orchi if wrong...

Prior to the 14th century...the majority Malays were Hindus...

The majority of Malays today...are descendants of their majority Hindus ancestors...

[Alfred88]

You know what can be done so Malaysia can truly be a free world?

Imagine every child born is given a temporary name till he or she reach an age of 20. Before that he or she can be as same religon of their parent. Once reach an age of 20, they will undergo a training period of 1 week for each 5 religon of their choice. Onces complete, they will decide their desired religon and adapt a new name given by the order.

Only then there is freedom of choice. It is only then each religion will have student really faithful to it's order and it's their choice. However if muslim will to do this that they prolly have no taken. Imaging the only order that is a one way ticket ... :D

[charis14]

Alfred88's suggestion on allowing personal decision at age of 20 will never be allowed by the fanatics who have progressively taken over control of Malaysia. Having installed a tight 'entry only' system, they are only interested in seeing their numbers grow, irregardless of quality. Our hope rests with the silent majority themselves, especially the womenfolks. Let us engage this group and encourage them to speak up and pursue positive changes, for themselves and the 2nd class Malaysia citizens.

[bugbear]

I believe the Christian Bible also forbid Christian form marrying outside of the faith. "Do not be unequally yolked..." but if they do, they must not imposed their faith on them(non-believer) but to show kindness to them. God knows the folly of marrying out of the faith and hence the above warning not to do so.

Therefore, those who want to marry a muslim must OBEY their law and convert since it is their requirement or else don't. It is that simple. What happen when they divorced....well you did married into their faith don't you? Siapa makan cili dialah yang akan rasa pedas!

:eek: :eek:

[Chia Hak Soon]

What happens if other religion imposes the same doctrine ? Confusciuos says" Do not do what you do not like to others as you do not like others to do unto you " ( something like that ) So in short, respect others as well ,so as peace be on earth.

[cool]

I agree with Kwchang, nothing would change no matter how hard we hit in this forum. But dont anyone agree how one would felt by having his thoughts written, express and read by many?. Its an avenue to pour out the real feelings which we did not have many years ago. Well forumners, go ahead and write and be heard ... and this would spread beyond our circle. Perhaps SB is reading, PM and other spies are looking into this too.

[sinleong]

sorry for those of us who are very pious, i think religion is a very divisive matter. for those of us who believe in GOD but do not take religion seriously, we lead a very harmonious and peaceful life.

take for example my ex-colleague who was once posted to Kuwait. He is a Catholic by birth. while in Kuwait, he decided to embrace Islam so he could get all the wonderful benefits a Muslim gets in that country. i think he is still a "Muslim" although he goes to church.

frankly, i don't see the fuss about embracing Islam or the need to renounce the religion. our Muslim brothers and sisters in Malaysia are not exactly suffering badly. if you don't wish to follow the Islamic way of life, i.e. you are forced into being a Muslim through marriage, birth or what nots then there is no one who can force you to believe in the religion. I have seen many Muslim friends drinking alcohol, eating bak kut teh, keeping dogs and gambling (Osu Sukam?)... So if your husband is going to convert so that he can use the religion as an excuse to keep your kids, then go ahead and convert so that you can also have rights to your Muslim kids.

And if you want to marry this girl so much and she is a Muslim, go ahead and convert. Nobody is going to come and check if you have circumsized or you are praying 5 times a day. Just make sure you are not living in places like Kampung Pantai Dalam or Gombak where your neighbours will come and invite you to join Friday prayers....

What is the fuss?

[AllUrban]

What is the fuss?The fuss happens because some people want to impose their views upon other people......and other people are willing to accept those views.....

maybe they accept the views because they like to impose upon others.....remember the description of religion as the "opiate of the masses"

my take is like yours...if you want to be religious...be religious...but please do not interfere with my right to be non-religious....or to be religious in a different way....

AND most importantly, it goes the other way too....if you dont want to be religious, dont be...but dont impose on me and interfere with my right to be religious.....

Cheers, m

[penangkia]

...if you want to be religious...be religious...but please do not interfere with my right to be non-religious....or to be religious in a different way....

AND most importantly, it goes the other way too....if you dont want to be religious, dont be...but dont impose on me and interfere with my right to be religious.....

Cheers, m

Yes. I agree 100%. It's really only that simply.

But unfortunately, there are those who must impose their beliefs on others to remain relevant or even to earn a living.
And even more unfortunately, they manage to get others to follow and agree with them and become pressure groups.

[firefox]

As i see it, this discussion is going no way and we cant change the laws pertaining to religion so why waste time blowing hot air..the only way is to change the government that too wont be easy.
So lets beleive in our faith and hope God to intervene in his own ways.