PDA

View Full Version : Cruelty To Animals



swee_ann_tweety
23-07-2006, 11:05 PM
Do you think the following is cruel to animals when animal dishes are served as follows: - ?

a) A lobster sashimi dish. The meat of the lobster and head of the lobster is served on ice. It can be seen that the eyes of the lobster and the claws of the lobster are still moving.

b) Similar to a) but now, it's a fish dish. The mouth of the fish still can move.

These are some examples of how dishes are served in some popular places in KL!!!

mon
23-07-2006, 11:22 PM
Do you think the following is cruel to animals when animal dishes are served as follows: - ?

a) A lobster sashimi dish. The meat of the lobster and head of the lobster is served on ice. It can be seen that the eyes of the lobster and the claws of the lobster are still moving.

b) Similar to a) but now, it's a fish dish. The mouth of the fish still can move.

These are some examples of how dishes are served in some popular places in KL!!!

Yes. It is a cruel and sadistic way to eat anything at all like that. My opinion..

in
24-07-2006, 08:57 AM
I will not eat anything that is alive or half alive...... I believe that if you want to eat something, at least have the decency to kill it first.

shamalasp
24-07-2006, 09:10 AM
check out www.loveusnoteatus.com

Franklon
24-07-2006, 09:40 AM
As far as I know, Fish don't feel pain. I saw a documentary once where they boiled the fish in a tank, and the behavior of the fish remains the same etc.

VeeJay
24-07-2006, 09:46 AM
As far as I know, Fish don't feel pain. I saw a documentary once where they boiled the fish in a tank, and the behavior of the fish remains the same etc.

You could read more here...
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/10/1044725683181.html

Franklon
24-07-2006, 10:22 AM
Yeah, so why is it cruel?

Fish don't feel pain... and I bet lobster's don't too.

yankeat
24-07-2006, 10:39 AM
this article says the opposite, fish do feel pain

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm

Timo
24-07-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm sure fish do feel pain - pain is a natural requirement for survival. The reason they don't act any differently in a tank of boiled water could be because their instincts have taught them never to show any weakness. The same thing happens with sheep, goats, antelope and various other 'game'. When they suffer pain, such as when they are being bitten by a predator, they are programmed not to show pain, so that they do not give the impression to the predators that they are weak and can be picked off easily.

As for the issue at hand, I find those dishes totally disgusting, all food I eat has to be 100% dead and cooked, I can't stand raw food either. But whether it constitutes 'cruelty to animals', that's not so clear cut.

swee_ann_tweety
24-07-2006, 05:25 PM
I'm sure fish do feel pain - pain is a natural requirement for survival. The reason they don't act any differently in a tank of boiled water could be because their instincts have taught them never to show any weakness. The same thing happens with sheep, goats, antelope and various other 'game'. When they suffer pain, such as when they are being bitten by a predator, they are programmed not to show pain, so that they do not give the impression to the predators that they are weak and can be picked off easily.

As for the issue at hand, I find those dishes totally disgusting, all food I eat has to be 100% dead and cooked, I can't stand raw food either. But whether it constitutes 'cruelty to animals', that's not so clear cut.

yup. Raw food is not so clear cut.

Back to the issue, eating animals with their heads (eyes / mouth) still alive (moving).....

what should we do about it ?

Is there a non-government organisation to stop this cruelty ?

I am more than willing to give out the name of the restaurant which serves this kind of "HEAD ALIVE - BODY DEAD" dishes.

orchipalar
24-07-2006, 05:31 PM
Err...for the life of Orchi...is there a law prohibiting a fish being eaten alive...?

How does it contrue to being cruel to the fish to begin with...?

Ahem...like a gentleman says...if ya don't have a taste for it...ya can choose NOT to eat it...

Err...hopes one does NOT condemn the ones that eat it to be cruel...or aliens...

swee_ann_tweety
24-07-2006, 05:39 PM
there is no law prohibiting people to eat fish alive as far as i know.

but it's cruel to see the eyes / head still moving.
cruel is defined as causing pain or suffering.

i think in general most people are not cruel. So these kind of dishes in general shouldn't be served in public.

Imagine those criminals who are sentenced to death, the executioner put a tiger in the prison and the tiger eats one leg of the criminal. Then the other leg. Then one hand and then another hand. All this while the criminal watches himself being eaten. If this is allowed in Malaysia, I have no problem sadistically eating fish that is still HEAD alive :)

mon
24-07-2006, 07:21 PM
Err...for the life of Orchi...is there a law prohibiting a fish being eaten alive...?

How does it contrue to being cruel to the fish to begin with...?

Ahem...like a gentleman says...if ya don't have a taste for it...ya can choose NOT to eat it...

Err...hopes one does NOT condemn the ones that eat it to be cruel...or aliens...

Orchi. Now that we know, or at least we could suspect if not scientifically proven otherwise, that fish do feel pain, should one still choose to eat fish if it's still alive..? Not searching for an answer as I agree that we have the right NOT to eat it. But I'm not sorry to say that whoever does that knowingly would be classified as cruel. At least to me. Nothing to do with the law, even if the law allows and sanctifies this eating habit. It's how one feels inside that matters.

orchipalar
24-07-2006, 07:53 PM
Err...Mon dear:)...has anyone ever thought...how a fish(or billions of them) might suffer gasping for air...after being scooped up by fishing nets...every seconds of the day n night?

or has anyone ever thought...how a live fish might suffer in pain...when somebody sticks a sharp knife into its body...just because plenty of folks wants to eat freshly prepared fish...?

n how about somebody slit a sharp knife across the chicken's throat...before the struggling fowl(still bleeding not dead yet) is being hurled straight into a boiling hot n spinning machine to detached the feathers off the poor chicken...?

Ahem...n here we are talking cruelty to animals...*Sigh*

Err...again for the life of Orchi n to be frank about it...Orchi dreads whenever somebody starts a thread like this...

...then the whole usually loving community declares war over...a freaking petty topic...

Metal
25-07-2006, 12:16 AM
Will a normal thinking human being actually eat the dishes without feeling uncomfortable? Could they really 'enjoy' their food staring at them with their eyes and mouth opening and closing, as if to curse you? Eeek!

:eek:

Metal
25-07-2006, 12:18 AM
I will not eat anything that is alive or half alive...... I believe that if you want to eat something, at least have the decency to kill it first.

Wait till you see what they eat in Fear Factor! And the foods were wriggling :eek:

Vixey
25-07-2006, 12:29 AM
Well, what is "normal" is subjective. Would you say picking out a healthy swimming fish in a tank by your table as your meal; "normal" ? One minute it was alive and by your choice, in the next couple of minutes it lies on your table steamed or fried.

Those who know me, know that I am passionate about animal rights. But there is a line of concern that you just don't cross especially when you start to lose perspective.

If the thought of gasping fish on fishing boats and slaughtered animals in abbatoirs (as Orchi pointed out somewhere something to that effect) affect you, then by all means do not be one of the millions who consume them. I believe if we weren't meant to consume meat, we would not have incisors.

As for the food that is served head alive, personally I won't have the stomach for it. But I am aware that cuisine served as such is part of their culture. And I wouldn't question their right to consume such a meal. Its a different thing entirely if the restaurant is serving up exotic and protected wild life.

Seriously, for those who are bothered by this, become vegetarians, if you are not already. But then again, I am quite convinced that my plants grow better when I talk to them especially since I have named them. So, I need some research done to see if they feel pain.... :D

kwchang
25-07-2006, 01:07 AM
Swee_Ann, I really don't know if you are concerned with this disgusting practice.

Franklon, you were the ONLY one who thinks fish and lobsters don't feel pain and even questioned if there were any issue with cruelty.

Orchi, I am sure you are of the same opinion about cruelty to life ... did you need to be so graphic? Same goes for swee_ann - why so much graphic details?

I am suddenly reminded about the long queues on the highways whenever a motor-vehicle accident (MVA) occurs. PCYeoh may say that the people were slowing down to look for the 4-digit numbers. But I think people actualy hope to come across gory scenes. The pictures in the vernacular papers underline the same fascination. Do we have people with a sick mentality or what?! :eek:

Just because fish and lobsters don't scream, it does not mean they don't feel pain. By the way, they can't scream because they don't have lungs and vocal chords. You know what? I can bet you a few Teh Tariks that all these graphic details will turn one of our readers into a vegetarian overnight. And don't anyone start anything about plants having feelings as well.

Getting back to the topic at hand. I will have to make a statement here that you people have done enough to say that YES, we live with very cruel people in our midsts. Chefs who have run out of ideas for exotic dishes to come up with this ghastly idea of food presentation and equally crazy people who have the heart to eat the very flesh of the same lobster.

You want to associate with these people, it is up to your conscience.

By the way, it is not right to assume that there are no laws against this. There is - it is called 'cruelty to animals'. The problem is the enforcement part. Concerned citizens should report such acts.

I shall have to close this thread soon if you people continue with the gory details. That is simply missing the details by getting engrossed with the gory parts.

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 01:13 AM
By the way, it is not right to assume that there are no laws against this. There is - it is called 'cruelty to animals'. The problem is the enforcement part. Concerned citizens should report such acts.

I shall have to close this thread soon if you people continue with the gory details. That is simply missing the details by getting engrossed with the gory parts.

To whom shall we report to ? Does anyone know ?

PeterHng
25-07-2006, 01:13 AM
I am suddenly reminded about the long queues on the highways whenever a motor-vehicle accident (MVA) occurs. PCYeoh may say that the people were slowing down to look for the 4-digit numbers. But I think people actualy hope to come across gory scenes. The pictures in the vernacular papers underline the same fascination. Do we have people with a sick mentality or what?! :eek:


but i think sometimes ppl slowed down to see whether any of their family members were involved in the accident maa.... but they better not drive too slow or else causing more jams and sumore from opposite... haihhh... peace..

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Malaysia is different.

I remember watching a documentary about how this US vet saved a turtle. There was once, my terrapin nearly drown and I remembered the documentary. I immediately phoned up my late vet but his wife told me that they only specialise in dogs and cats.

My point is, it is as easy to complain about an incident (e.g. the cruel eating of fish / lobster) as finding a terrapin / turtle vet in US. but in Malaysia, I feel the opposite UNLESS somebody can tell me to whom shall I complain cruelity to fish / lobsters to ?

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 01:30 AM
Well, what is "normal" is subjective. Would you say picking out a healthy swimming fish in a tank by your table as your meal; "normal" ? One minute it was alive and by your choice, in the next couple of minutes it lies on your table steamed or fried.

Those who know me, know that I am passionate about animal rights. But there is a line of concern that you just don't cross especially when you start to lose perspective.
.....<snip>......

I don't know whether it is relevant here, but it is normal in nature that many (if not most) creatures are actually eaten alive in the food chain. Just view the Discovery Channel on Astro and you'll see plenty of examples of this. I think some of the more gory scenes are actually censored.........

Personally, I do feel very squeamish when I see any animals, especially mammals, tortured unneccessarily. But I must say that my simpático feelings diminish when it comes to fish and even less so concerning reptiles (except turtles) or insects. These are generally considered the lower life forms and believed to lack the capability of thought and thus cannot experience pain or fear as we humans define it.

The movements that we see on the dining table may be nothing more than muscular twitches or reflex actions. I distinctively remember some tilapia which we disemboweled after a fishing trip, dumped into deep freeze for days, then when we thawed it and put it into the frying pan, started flapping as if it was alive!

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 01:44 AM
I did a search just now. I think thus far, the best place to report cruelty to animals would be http://agrolink.moa.my/jph/dvs/enforcement/animal-cruelty.html

kwchang
25-07-2006, 01:45 AM
You see? we are missing the point again (re: posts #21 and #22).

So, let me help you....

With knowledge of animal's suffering, people actualy do make it more humane in the slaughter of animals for food. That is why the abattoir industry is quite advanced in reducing suffering on the part of the animal. Where it is not possible to reduce pain, they develop rapid procedures so that the period of suffering is shortened.

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 02:05 AM
Where it is not possible to reduce pain, they develop rapid procedures so that the period of suffering is shortened.
Would you consider sport fishing, or any kind of fishing with hook and line, a form of cruelty to fishes? The point of this activity seems be to stretch the period of suffering of the fish, at the end of which the poor vanquished creature is given post humorously the tag of `brave fighter!'

jc86
25-07-2006, 02:12 AM
Err...Mon dear:)...has anyone ever thought...how a fish(or billions of them) might suffer gasping for air...after being scooped up by fishing nets...every seconds of the day n night?

or has anyone ever thought...how a live fish might suffer in pain...when somebody sticks a sharp knife into its body...just because plenty of folks wants to eat freshly prepared fish...?

n how about somebody slit a sharp knife across the chicken's throat...before the struggling fowl(still bleeding not dead yet) is being hurled straight into a boiling hot n spinning machine to detached the feathers off the poor chicken...?

Ahem...n here we are talking cruelty to animals...*Sigh*

Err...again for the life of Orchi n to be frank about it...Orchi dreads whenever somebody starts a thread like this...

...then the whole usually loving community declares war over...a freaking petty topic...


i love this few lines A LOT ...


btw all this reminds me of this csi NY episode on axn a few weeks ago .. wher in NY, it seems lots of rich ppl pay big money 2 eat stuff u usually see on fear factor challenges .. live octopus, live spiders, worms n stuff....

kwchang
25-07-2006, 02:20 AM
In our reality, everything somehow gyrates back to some form of relativity doesn't it? Most of us would say it is OK that we fish. We never questioned about the fish's suffering. They do suffer, don't they? I still remember reading an analogy in one of the comic books I get immersed into when I was a pre-teen.... it was said that when we take the fish out of water, it 'drowns' in air (and would die an equally horrible death like a man drowning in the sea).

However, if we were to report such cruelty like sport-fishing, it would look rather silly to find the cops surrounding an angler, wouldn't it?

Hence my challenge to you, my logical brethen, is to discuss the issue of animal welfare and animal cruelty in its context and if possible with its entrapments of socially acceptible norms

No gory details please, we leave that to the people who cause massive jams on the highways and the vernacular tabloids. I could change you to a vegetarian in my banana plantation ;)

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 08:57 AM
No gory details please, we leave that to the people who cause massive jams on the highways and the vernacular tabloids. I could change you to a vegetarian in my banana plantation ;)

Excuse me Mr. KWChang, I think by eating bananas, one becomes a fruitarian.

Maybe you send people to your plantation and you force them to eat banana leaves ? (vegetarian)

blurrman
25-07-2006, 09:09 AM
when i was in china, i remember one tv program about a monkey dish

they cage the monkey, leaving his head outside of the cage, 3-4 person surrouding the cage, then cut the monkey's head alive, with the monkey screaming. they open up the and with the brain exposed. they pour hot oil into the brain and serve.

there is also one dish of shrimps, they put live shrimps into a bowl of wine, let the shrimps drown and eat them alive.


if u have seen someone preparing a dish of haruan, no matter what u do, the fish will be pretty much alive, even when u cut out all the "spare parts" inside it, remove the heart, remove everything, the head and tail will still move. but this is part of killing the fish to be served.

no matter what your argue, how you argue, as long as human eat animal, there is "Cruelty To Animals"...even slaughtering a chiken is cruel when you happend to see how they do it...

mon
25-07-2006, 02:18 PM
We were once cavemen and have hunted and killed as cavemen do. But then, that doesn’t make those things right. And that doesn’t mean that we should do those things for the rest of our lives.

We humans can recognize the suffering of other animals and we can choose not to inflict it on them, or prolong their suffering. They can't think about the consequences of their actions.

If we choose to make them suffer (eat them alive knowing they are feeling the pain), what does that say about the human race? Quoting what 'in' had said earlier, if you need to eat something, at least have the decency to kill it first.

:) Peace.

mon
25-07-2006, 02:38 PM
With knowledge of animal's suffering, people actualy do make it more humane in the slaughter of animals for food. That is why the abattoir industry is quite advanced in reducing suffering on the part of the animal. Where it is not possible to reduce pain, they develop rapid procedures so that the period of suffering is shortened.

I believe this to be true. Only a minority of people would do the unbelievable and consume animals alive or half alive. I think that is sole purpose of this thread? that is, is it cruelty to eat animals when they are still alive?

My answer stands the same, altho I have to admit I have no right to question or condemn anyone who does not think so.

Good afternoon. :)

chin_wan
25-07-2006, 02:45 PM
Why be a hypocrite? If you think eating fish when they are still alive is cruel, then be a vegetarian. When you eat animal, be it chicken, fish or dog, you are being cruel to them because you have to kill them. As swee_ann_tweety define cruel as "cruel is defined as causing pain or suffering, when you kill them you are causing pain to them.

If you ask me, I am OK with eating live fish, etc.

ericchan
25-07-2006, 02:50 PM
Talking about pain and cruelty i will never forget this documentary which i watched.... lions killed and ate a baby elephant alive ,it was so gruesome and cruel that till this day i have nightmares thinking of it.

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 02:57 PM
We were once cavemen and have hunted and killed as cavemen do. But then, that doesn’t make those things right.
The caveman was probably more civilised than us when it came to killing for food. A good clean kill is a lot less troublesome than a poorly executed prolonged hunt. And the caveman probably didn't practise the Art of turning his dinner into some form of entertainment. It was only when man became more civilised that we became more capable of intentionally inflicting new forms of cruelty to the lower ranked life forms.

Cruelty to animals isn't limited only to how we kill or eat them. There are those of us who believe that keeping animals in zoos constitutes cruelty. In a related issue, how we farm our food animals may also need to be put into the equation. Aren't chickens already in pain and suffering when they are kept in small cramped cages prior to being slaughtered?

ericchan, as I have pointed out before, most animals actually suffer a terrible death by being eaten alive sooner or later in nature. Is nature cruel?

ericchan
25-07-2006, 03:01 PM
ericchan, as I have pointed out before, most animals actually suffer a terrible death by being eaten alive sooner or later in nature. Is nature cruel?

Exactly this is my point its about the art of survival not nature.

mon
25-07-2006, 03:04 PM
If you ask me, I am OK with eating live fish, etc.

I have no qualms about you or anyone else eating anything live. I was just speaking for myself, again. Like you just did, for yourself.

Peace. :)

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 03:19 PM
If you ask me, I am OK with eating live fish, etc.
Do you really eat live fish? On a regular basis? Wow!

I like sushi or sashimi (raw fish), but to chomp on a fish, slimy scales, prickly bones and all, while it's slapping me in the face isn't very appetizing to me.

Sorry, I'll have to go with mon on this.

Peace, everybody.

tupai
25-07-2006, 03:28 PM
how ah? they say if i tok to my cabbage and daun kesum, they will grow healthier, last longer, bear bigger leaves. Then when I plucked the leaves and uprooted the cabbage...methink i heard the 'ouch!' and 'Oh damn! I am gotten be made a salad!"
:D

is that cruelty to vegetables? :confused: Tihs is a cmoiplcaetd tipoc lah. :(

Ynag Amat Blur sonotg ltao tpuai

chin_wan
25-07-2006, 03:32 PM
Do you really eat live fish? On a regular basis? Wow!

I like sushi or sashimi (raw fish), but to chomp on a fish, slimy scales, prickly bones and all, while it's slapping me in the face isn't very appetizing to me.

Sorry, I'll have to go with mon on this.

Peace, everybody.

No I don't eat live fish. What I meant was...I am OK with people eating live fish.

orchipalar
25-07-2006, 03:50 PM
Do you think the following is cruel to animals when animal dishes are served as follows: - ?

a) A lobster sashimi dish. The meat of the lobster and head of the lobster is served on ice. It can be seen that the eyes of the lobster and the claws of the lobster are still moving.

b) Similar to a) but now, it's a fish dish. The mouth of the fish still can move.

These are some examples of how dishes are served in some popular places in KL!!!
I am more than willing to give out the name of the restaurant which serves this kind of "HEAD ALIVE - BODY DEAD" dishes.
Ahem...n here we are talking cruelty to animals...*Sigh*

Err...again for the life of Orchi n to be frank about it...Orchi dreads whenever somebody starts a thread like this...

...then the whole usually loving community declares war over...a freaking petty topic...Err...now Orchi is disturbed from this...

1. should the thread starter(previously banana-ed for spreading rumours) has enough evidence(he claims he witnessed it happening before him?) for the story(was the lobster or fish really alive when the restaurant served them to the patrons???) to stick...he could only do justice by taking it up with the relevant parties...otherwise it is hard for any debates over that specific matter(rumour) to hold water...

2. time n time again...it can be debated that pet shop operators...n pets owners themselves...are in many ways n certain extents...attribute to the exploitations n cruelty to animals...

3. time n time again...it can be debated the meat eaters...are in many ways n certain extents...attribute to the exploitations n cruelty to animals...

4. n it can be debated that...the conservation/confinement n law enforcement on strays ...n wild animals especially...attribute to the cruelty to animals...

So how...???

girl2
25-07-2006, 04:12 PM
This reminds me of IFAW's campaign - Think Twice: If the buying stops, the killing will too

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 04:42 PM
What I meant was...I am OK with people eating live fish.
Okay, I think I get what you mean.

Live and let live; To each, his own; or something like that.


Dear Orchi, much of what society does is disturbing, especially to sensitive souls like you.

We have to let our conscience be our guide and hope our parents gave us the right traits to follow.

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Err...now Orchi is disturbed from this...

1. should the thread starter(previously banana-ed for spreading rumours) has enough evidence(he claims he witnessed it happening before him?) for the story(was the lobster or fish really alive when the restaurant served them to the patrons???) to stick...he could only do justice by taking it up with the relevant parties...otherwise it is hard for any debates over that specific matter(rumour) to hold water...


do you all want to view the photograph ?
Mr. KWChang has already mentioned no glory details. If you want the photograph, I can email it to you and together, I will also give you the name of the restaurant

swee_ann_tweety
25-07-2006, 05:15 PM
how ah? they say if i tok to my cabbage and daun kesum, they will grow healthier, last longer, bear bigger leaves. Then when I plucked the leaves and uprooted the cabbage...methink i heard the 'ouch!' and 'Oh damn! I am gotten be made a salad!"
:D

is that cruelty to vegetables? :confused: Tihs is a cmoiplcaetd tipoc lah. :(

Ynag Amat Blur sonotg ltao tpuai

Lato Tupai, I quote the man with the red eye (KWChang)

And don't anyone start anything about plants having feelings as well.

Yang Amat Bercakap Lato Tupai :D

FineTuned
25-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Does anyone remember the Ribena ads on TV where they forced the strawberries (or was it the grapes?) to beg to be eaten? Then we had the Maggi ads where the poor tomatoes were squeezed alive into the ketchup bottle.........

Now you know why I refuse to be a vegetarian.

kwchang
25-07-2006, 06:19 PM
I give up !! :mad:

In my post (#27) I had made some requests on how to salvage this thread which had some potential for a decent discussion.

However, all I see are a bunch of trivial run-arounds by a bunch of people who are obviously not serious about the subject.

I will not waste my time on this.