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yankeat
31-05-2006, 10:32 AM
Mandarin demand is discriminatory

KUALA LUMPUR: The private sector should stop the practice of making it compulsory for local graduates to be proficient in Mandarin, Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said.

The Deputy Prime Minister urged the private sector to be open in accepting and training local graduates without including certain requirements and looking at their background.

“I have checked some advertisements, where the criteria for potential employees includes being proficient in Mandarin,” he said when winding up the debate on the Ninth Malaysia Plan at Dewan Negara yesterday.

“It is discriminatory. Such a practice should stop.”

Najib, who was replying to questions concerning unemployed graduates, said the number of graduates had almost doubled from 45,000 in 2000 to 85,000 last year.

He said that according to a survey 32% of the graduates had yet to secure jobs after completing their studies last year.

He said the Government would intensify efforts to instil the entrepreneurship culture in universities.

“We believe that with exposure to the business world, graduates will be more interested in becoming entrepreneurs upon completing their studies,” he said.

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/5/31/nation/14399649&sec=nation

In today's world, where US, UK, Japan are rushing to learn Mandarin to do business with China, Malaysia calls Madarin requirement is discriminatory. China businessman won't even entertain clients or people who wants to do business but don't know Mandarin.

Maybe Malaysia will always regard doing business with China as discriminatory also???

Sigh... when will our people wake up to this fact????

ccek
31-05-2006, 10:36 AM
So many companies in their recruitment ad also stating hire bumi only..but we never make noise.

slappy
31-05-2006, 10:50 AM
Oh boy, here we go again....

totoro
31-05-2006, 10:58 AM
as long as it's a legitimate requirement for the particular job being advertised, then it's not discriminatory.

silver_bird
31-05-2006, 11:04 AM
Syabas ............
Keep on voting for BNn, give you 100% support to MCAa, Gerrakan, MICc

lord
31-05-2006, 11:09 AM
so, what do you suggest the other races who can't speak mandarin do for a leaving?!! stick on to tapping rubber trees and slog at the paddy fields?

just curious.....

IanQ
31-05-2006, 11:16 AM
so, what do you suggest the other races who can't speak mandarin do for a leaving?!! stick on to tapping rubber trees and slog at the paddy fields?

just curious.....
Learn mandarin and be fluent in the language before applying for the position. This is no different from a employee studying a degree (or qualification or skill) in order to get employed.

chin_wan
31-05-2006, 11:22 AM
yankeat...Yes, other countries in the world are rushing to do busines with China but in countries you mentioned, US, UK and most European countries, they are not allowed to put discriminatory job vacancy ads. Equal employment opportunity is the key.

Anyway, I think our DPM said the wrong thing. Mandarin, like any other technical skills should not be classified as employment discrimination. However, race and sex should be classified as employment discrimination which I think is what DPM meant.

totoro
31-05-2006, 11:30 AM
yankeat...Yes, other countries in the world are rushing to do busines with China but in countries you mentioned, US, UK and most European countries, they are not allowed to put discriminatory job vacancy ads. Equal employment opportunity is the key.
And in US, UK and EU, having Mandarin as one of the required skillsets is not discriminatory. :)

slappy
31-05-2006, 11:40 AM
Anyway, I think our DPM said the wrong thing. Mandarin, like any other technical skills should not be classified as employment discrimination. However, race and sex should be classified as employment discrimination which I think is what DPM meant.

Yup, I think the DPM blurped out a gross misstatement. He probably equate mandarin requirement to hiring Chinese only and shot from the hip.

If the voice of protest is strong, he ought to do some damage control and retract that statement. And voice of the middle class is getting stronger by the day, reading from the forums here. But are we then just that, lots of noise in the forum and none to be seen in taking action, i.e. petition ala Dr. George etc.

jianwei85
31-05-2006, 11:41 AM
It's an employer's market out there..if they wan somebody who are mandarin- speaking, then it's better to apply for another job..

linguistics are part of a job skill, certain fields might require it and so it might not be discriminatory..but instead a job requirement..

btw, since it's in the private sector, do u think they will make a study on:
1)how mandarin demand is discriminatory? and
2)y most of them are making mandarin a requirement?

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 11:45 AM
Oh boy, here we go again....lolllllll ... I got that same sinking feeling lah slappy ...... :D

Jose Mourinho
31-05-2006, 11:50 AM
If our DPM did actually utter that incredibly naive and stupid remark,then, in my view, he is not fit to be a DPM or anybody in office for that matter because it spells of a single dimensional thinking and only imbeciles think like that.

yankeat
31-05-2006, 11:52 AM
I'm not chinese educated, and actually i can't read and write Chinese. Yes, I actually do feel disadvantaged few years ago, because there are some good job openings that requires Mandarin.
However, I don't blame the companies, because that is what they require, they need people who can communicate & work with China counterpart. Personally, I have woke up to this reality. In the past 1 year plus, I realized that Chinese illiterate is one of my disadvantage. I spent hours after working hours & weekends studying Chinese. If it were not Chinese that became a major economic superpower but India, I would surely go study Hindi.
We have to realize where the market is going and adapt ourselves, and not kept on blaming anyone.

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 11:53 AM
, who was replying to questions concerning unemployed graduates, said the number of graduates had almost doubled from 45,000 in 2000 to 85,000 last year.

He said that according to a survey 32% of the graduates had yet to secure jobs after completing their studies last year.Hi Naj babe, you mean to tell us that 32% of 85,000 graduates wld have been gainfully employed now if it werent for adverts that require Mandarin ?

There is no doubt that if the job really, really can be done by someone who may not be fluent in Mandarin, then the advert wld have tested +VE for discrimination.

But I see this as our Naj's attempt at shifting attention from BN's inability to develop a good balanced ( dacing comes to mind :D ) demand-supply equation. So he plays the language ( i.e race card ).
Another example of the exemplary peace that prevails in Malaysia.

totoro
31-05-2006, 11:55 AM
to put things in perspective... next thing you know, requiring English language competency as a job requirement will also become discriminatory.

lol.

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 11:57 AM
Syabas ............
Keep on voting for BNn, give you 100% support to MCAa, Gerrakan, MICclolllllllllllllll :p

swee_ann_tweety
31-05-2006, 12:00 PM
Look, if the company wants to hire someone who can speak mandarin, it doesn't necessary mean ONLY chinese can speak mandarin! (Gosh ! Some can't even)! Anyways, in todays world, Englishmen, Malay, Indians and some other races can even speak mandarin!
Are you surprised to see Malay parents sending their children to chinese school ? NO I am not cause I have seen it.
I went to the Klang Starbucks once and there was this Malay girl speaking Mandarin. So is this bias ? Bias against which race !???

So, if the company wants to hire someone who can speak mandarin because they are dealing with mandarin speaking clients like from Taiwan / China, so, what is the big deal ?

You should be commenting on advertisements that blatantly pinpoint a particular race eg, "" Wanted employee is "of a PARTICULAR race""

swee_ann_tweety
31-05-2006, 12:03 PM
so, what do you suggest the other races who can't speak mandarin do for a leaving?!! stick on to tapping rubber trees and slog at the paddy fields?

just curious.....

remember also, there are some Chinese who do not know how to speak mandarin!!!

or worse still!!! they cannot speak any chinese at all and we call them Banana Man :)

swee_ann_tweety
31-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Yup, I think the DPM blurped out a gross misstatement. He probably equate mandarin requirement to hiring Chinese only and shot from the hip.

If the voice of protest is strong, he ought to do some damage control and retract that statement. And voice of the middle class is getting stronger by the day, reading from the forums here. But are we then just that, lots of noise in the forum and none to be seen in taking action, i.e. petition ala Dr. George etc.

How can our DPM " blurped out a gross misstatement who equate mandarin requirements as to hiring only Chinese " ????
OMG! We are being lead by these sort of leaders ???
ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!! :D

He is the one who should be more open!!! not the employers LOL :)

yankeat
31-05-2006, 12:08 PM
well, personally i'm not sure why government kept bringing up the issue 85000 graduates cannot find jobs. Did government given any breakdown on what these graduates study? I graduated from engineering. As far as I know, all my coursemates, faculty mates everyone found jobs immediately after finish finals. Even those who graduate from less demanded courses such as English studies & forestry secured decent jobs.

swee_ann_tweety
31-05-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm not chinese educated, and actually i can't read and write Chinese. Yes, I actually do feel disadvantaged few years ago, because there are some good job openings that requires Mandarin.
However, I don't blame the companies, because that is what they require, they need people who can communicate & work with China counterpart. Personally, I have woke up to this reality. In the past 1 year plus, I realized that Chinese illiterate is one of my disadvantage. I spent hours after working hours & weekends studying Chinese. If it were not Chinese that became a major economic superpower but India, I would surely go study Hindi.
We have to realize where the market is going and adapt ourselves, and not kept on blaming anyone.

Good for you! Well done! Keep up with your hardworking-ness
You are now fit to be a leader in MCA to promote Life Long Learning Languages Looking for Luck (LLLLL) (luck as in opportunity) LOL

chin_wan
31-05-2006, 12:19 PM
Here's 1 reason why there's so many gradutes who cannot find jobs...passion. If you do a survey of what our graduates actually want to study, I can say that most of them will tell you something else that they are actually studying. Our education system is designed in such a way that we are told to study what people think is best not what you actually have passion for. When this happens, you get graduates who have a degree for something that they don't like to do. How are you going to excel is something that you don't have passion for?

When I interview people to hire, I don't look at their degree or test results. I look for the passion and that, my friend, is something you cannot lie.

slappy
31-05-2006, 12:20 PM
85,000 unemployed graduates. Hmmm... that's big enough to fill up the Bukit Jalil Stadium. How about a part time job as M'sia football team supporters whenever we play in Bukit Jalil stadium. It seems the stadium is always half-full when we have football spectacle. Case in point, the myteam vs M'sia recently.

Anyway, I digressed and I apologise. To me, getting a job is all about people skills, which the local universities fail to grasp in educating our undergraduates. The reality of the job market is that companies are operating in a dynamic enterprising environment, hence companies can't really ill-afford blur sotong who can't communicate well or have irrelevant degree-knowledge that cannot be applied.

burntan
31-05-2006, 12:22 PM
Don't you feel strange that most companies operate in MALAYsia and only doing business with MALAYsia companies, also have the "CHINA" speaking requirement for job employment?

I really doubt that >80% companies out there in MALAYsia are all doing business with China.

I think most China companies who doing international business able to communicate in English as well, not necessary Mandarin, or Hokkien, Tiew Chew, Hainan...etc. I personally ordered something from China and the entire communication are in English.

pcyeoh
31-05-2006, 12:35 PM
I remember a friend of mine a Senior Manager of a public listed company who wanted to hire 5 marketing executives to solicit for advertisements for their publication. I recommended a friend of mine who is an Indian. She was not even called for an interview. The senior manager being a friend told me that they are actually looking for Mandarin speaking executive as the job need them to cover Chinese companies for their Chinese publications. He told me he cannot state that criteria in the advertisement, as earlier they were being accused by the authority for racial discrimination, he get nice shelling from those non Chinese candidates who came for the interview for wasting their time. So how?

The figure 85,000 Najib cited is not UNEMPLOYED graduates but rather UNEMPLOYABLE garduates which our LOCAL univerities are churning out by the thousands. In time to come we will have Najib asking employers not to discrimate graduates who do not know IT, who do not have their own transport, who do not want to leave their house to work and who wants to take up a 3 day week job. What I am saying is that the government should not interfere with the private sector recruitment

totoro
31-05-2006, 12:41 PM
Ok, MNC's doing business with Taiwan/HK/China/Singapore aside. Let's assume a certain number of smaller local companies in Malaysia belong to a typical 'Chinaman' boss. He is not as fortunate as us to be well-educated, and he is only fluent in his mother tongue - Mandarin and knows little English and only a bit of BM.

Now, is it unfair for the boss to only want to recruit employees who are able to talk to him (as being able to communicate with your employees seems to be a key factor in running a company, imho) ?

Jose Mourinho
31-05-2006, 12:42 PM
The figure 85,000 Najib cited is not UNEMPLOYED graduates but rather UNEMPLOYABLE garduates which our LOCAL univerities are churning out by the thousands.

What can you expect when local education institutions now can take in SPM holders with 3 credits into their foundation studies and then on to degree courses? During my time, we went through Form 6 and it was not a question of how many HSC subjects you have passed - usually 3 or 4 principal subjects plus 1 subsidiary subject - but the grades you obtained in those papers. I know of a student who has 3 principal subjects with Grades of B, B and C and a 3 in her subsidiary subject and she was rejected by UM and two universities in UK. Nowadays everybody is a degree holder and very soon everybody is a MBA holder and by the year 2020, everybody will have a doctorate and we all call each other 'Doctor'.

:)

slappy
31-05-2006, 12:50 PM
.....Nowadays everybody is a degree holder and very soon everybody is a MBA holder and by the year 2020, everybody will have a doctorate and we all call each other 'Doctor'.

:)

Just like Philippines, huh? Plenty of graduates with no job. Some even willing to work as maids.

pucman
31-05-2006, 12:54 PM
yankeat...Yes, other countries in the world are rushing to do busines with China but in countries you mentioned, US, UK and most European countries, they are not allowed to put discriminatory job vacancy ads. Equal employment opportunity is the key.

.

Not true. They do state that you must be proficient in english. So does that mean it is discriminitory ?

orchipalar
31-05-2006, 01:22 PM
Err...these days...there has been some regular job vacancy adverts to hire or recruit...mandarin n chinese multi dialects speaking candidates to sell funeral services n plots...macam MLM punya scheme or something like that...

Ahem...n the rewards can be lucrative n promising to the successful candidates whom could perform well in their endeavors...

now...how would that NOT be seen as discrimitory too...would amaze Orchi too... :rolleyes:

Nic_of_Time
31-05-2006, 01:36 PM
For Najib to pick "Mandarin" as sole example (assuming the reporter is accurate) of discrimination, does reflect his maturity of mind. This statement had heavy implications that could induce other very strong negatives. That is why it is now the talk of the country and here in this forum. Maybe it was initiated to deflect attention from the police problems that we have now.

He should have said that all discriminations should be banned in employment pertaining to human rights like gender, race and maybe language that could be wrongly construed by 'sensitive' people. Langauge is normally not considered discriminatory, but in Malaysia it could be linked to the race factor.

I don't think the short phrase "Mandarin Speaking Only" was meant to be discriminatory, but shorten to save cost in the advert.
But since Malaysians are so sensitive, we should give consideration and not use phrases like "Mandarin speaking ONLY". Employers should phrase their job advert, "The majority of our clients are only well versed in Mandarin" or something like that, to save time being wasted.

Nowadays, many non-chinese can speak Mandarin, thus the impact of discrimination should not be obvious.

In addition, i do not see many job adverts that put up this Mandarin Only" requirement. 1 in 1000 or 2000 or maybe more, but then, try compare it to those with other blatant racial requirements.

trex92
31-05-2006, 01:36 PM
how about requirements such as "degree holder with 3 years experience", isnt it discriminating too? .. it is all the same, it deals with skills that are required for the job. One cannot discriminate against language requirements nor skills. One can only discriminate on race, religion etc.

AllUrban
31-05-2006, 01:47 PM
These countries mentioned have human rights laws that dont allow discrimination in a way that would violate human rights...such as discrimination based on age, gender, race, creed, sexual orientation....

Unless the company can make an exception by proving that there is a legitimate requirement for discrimination for the job, they can get hauled before the HRC in the various countries...

Yes. companies are allowed to discriminate but not against something that a person generally wont change e.g. race, creed, gender...

In this case it seems that some companies are trying to apply a loophole for the wrong reasons...and in fact DPM could have said "this practice sounds slightly fishy, so I will encourage all of you who are proficient or fluent in Mandarin and are not Chinese to apply for these jobs and see what happens...."

Then he would be accused of racism :p

In fact, Suhakam could now raise another big stink:

Encourage all fluent/proficient mandarin-speakers who arent Chinese, and all fluent/proficient Tamil speakers who arent indian, and all fluent/proficient Malay-speakers who arent malay, to raise a big stink about how race is really a factor in hiring practices (despite the equality and multiracialism of malaysia) and the language request is just a cover.

Unfortunately Suhakam are a little bit busy with this IPCMC vs. police thing

Cheers, m

Life Ranger
31-05-2006, 01:50 PM
how about requirements such as "degree holder with 3 years experience", isnt it discriminating too? .. it is all the same, it deals with skills that are required for the job. One cannot discriminate against language requirements nor skills. One can only discriminate on race, religion etc.
Yes, trex92's quotation has pierced to the truth of this issue. On the contrary, Najib's statement is rather discriminatory against Mandarin, yes or no ?

totoro
31-05-2006, 01:59 PM
how about requirements such as "degree holder with 3 years experience", isnt it discriminating too? .. it is all the same, it deals with skills that are required for the job. One cannot discriminate against language requirements nor skills. One can only discriminate on race, religion etc.Yes, trex92's quotation has pierced to the truth of this issue. On the contrary, Najib's statement is rather discriminatory against Mandarin, yes or no ?
Well, if we talk about discrimination against race, religion as mentioned by trex92 - then how about this example below?

Have you heard of a residential / commercial property project undertaken by DRB-Hicom and Majlis Agama Islam Selangor called Mutiara Tropicana at Tropicana (behind Bandar Utama 11/12)?

I went to their sales office. Sales is open to Muslims only for the first year. They will open to public after that, if there are unsold units remaining (not likely, it's 50% sold already). Their registration form will ask you to tick (1) Muslim and Bumi, (2) Bumi only, (3) Muslim only.

Website is:
http://tempfive.one.com.my/brief.php

Can such a rule be imposed on sales of property in Malaysia? I don't really know, but to me it's their land and project, and they can do what they want with it (within legal limits). In the same way, it's the boss's company and he can choose to hire the people he wants (within legal limits).

ginaphan
31-05-2006, 02:06 PM
Don't you feel strange that most companies operate in MALAYsia and only doing business with MALAYsia companies, also have the "CHINA" speaking requirement for job employment?

Where is your source of certifiable information and statistics on this claim?
What would be the definition of "most"

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Welcome back gina ........... wherefore werest thou ???? :D :D

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:12 PM
Hi Naj babe, you mean to tell us that 32% of 85,000 graduates wld have been gainfully employed now if it werent for adverts that require Mandarin ?

There is no doubt that if the job really, really can be done by someone who may not be fluent in Mandarin, then the advert wld have tested +VE for discrimination.

But I see this as our Naj's attempt at shifting attention from BN's inability to develop a good balanced ( dacing comes to mind :D ) demand-supply equation. So he plays the language ( i.e race card ).
Another example of the exemplary peace that prevails in Malaysia....... by the looks of it, i.e. all of us going at each others throats, Naj my Man has won !!!!! :mad:
Why the blessed fish arent we talking of the imbalance between the demand and supply equation ( and the causes thereof ) which the gormen has some degree of control over ..... instead of taking the YOU-AGAINST-ME stance & going at each others throats ????

Life Ranger
31-05-2006, 02:29 PM
It has been a fact that there are extremists in the govmen, but always trying to implicate the "extremist" evidence on others. Almost 50 years after independence now, never sincerely promote the development of mandarin schools in this country but once and again vilifying its existence with the unwarranted allegation of obstructing the national integration. Today, almost all those attending Mandarin schools can speak in Malay, Mandarin, and English. Who is more easy to integrate in this country ? Those who speak only English or Malay or multilingual ? When looking for jobs who is more competent ? The answer is obvious. If a country leader still can't understand or purposely ignoring this simple theory narrow-mindedly, but keeps playing the so-called politically-right games, we are all going no where but...

FreeThinker
31-05-2006, 02:32 PM
Hello Orchi,

The example you have given is not a good one if you wanted to point out racial discrimination. Do you really think that any person other than a chinese with different culture would in their right mind work for a chinese cemetary or funeral company? Especially when there is religion involved in the job? (Remember you have to get used to all the paper dolls, joss sticks, etc.) Even a chinese who knows mandarin but is a christian will not even consider about it for a second.

Anyway, this thread is not about the profession. It's a discussion about how BN always divert the people's attention when they could not solve a problem (by looking for scapegoats). Unable to produce employable graduates in the country, and here he's telling the people "there's nothing wrong with our education system, it's these businessmen (suppossedly chinese as mandarin was involved in the argument) who caused the unemployment. The sad thing is, the people will always buy to their argument, apparently racial championing is and always will be supported. (Yeah, I know, he never specifically said that but then the majority is malay right?)

To be honest, I am a Bananaman myself, but I am not ashamed of it because I sutdied in a La Salle school, so what I lack in mandarin, I made it up with good command in English. But fortunately for me, I comunicated with the mandarin speaking chinese a lot in university time, so at least I speak mandarin now.

We have been hearing every now and then, how China will become superpower in 50 years time overtaking US and India will become third in line soon. And how MNCs would invest heavily in China and India in order to become more competitive. Look at the keywords - "superpower", "invest heavily" and "competitive". Shell, BP, ConocoPhilips, et cetera, et cetera. Even the local Malaysian companies are venturing to china in order to capture the market. Look at how Parkson did now. Lion Group invested for some years as it believed that China would soon become the biggest market on earth. Now Parkson is the Top retail shopping in China, even outwitting the local Chinese companies. So tell me, how can anyone not put their strategy to capture some markets in China and even India?

So, in order to do that, these companies who have the intention or plans to enter the Chinese and Indian market has only one choice - communicate well with the local Chinese or Indians or scrap the plan to get a slice of their market. So obviously the language mandarin plays a BIG part in communication. Yes, of course English is also used in the business community, but then again, when you speak in a language not in your native, you tend to have difficulty understanding or conveying the precise message. So there tend to have some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication. Furthermore, the customers will always feel at home when you could converse well in their native language. This tends to bring the relationship a bit closer. It is the same in Malaysia, if you are dealing with a malay businessman, then the language you will use to communicate is certainly Bahasa Malayu and not English right? In China it is easy because they have unified their language some thousands of years ago under a disctator named Shi Huang Ti. Before that, cantonese, hakka, teochew, and some hundreds more native language are communicated within each community. This still holds true in India, so their unifying language is English. So for India, as long as you know english, it is fine as most of the business community speaks fluent english, though in local accent. It is impossible to learn all the hundreds of languages just to make a deal in India.

So, back to the issue of discrimination, I would personally not see it as discrimination although I must admit it is mainly the chinese who will benefit. But then again, the language itself is free for all (all race can choose to learn it). So it is only the choices of the people not to learn it. I think the people of Malaysia has not yet come to term with Globalisation. I give you an example, the Finns. They are always proud of their language because it is their national language. And it is the hardest language to learn on earth. As I am working for a MNC I have dealt with one of the manufacturing company in Finland. I learnt that quite a no. of them spoke very well in mandarin. The reason? Well they have a subsidiary in China, so they have to communicate with the local chinese almost daily. Owing to this fact, they took their own initiative to learn mandarin in order to effectively manage the company in China. I know of one who even write in mandarin very well. I was so impresed and at the same time feel a little ashamed at the time becuase I know nothing about written mandarin. But later I thought there is nothing to be ashamed of as mandarin is not a race, it is a form of communication tools generated by my ancestors. It has nothing to do with me as a chinese. It is I who chose not to learn it in the first place and the Finn to choose to learn it. There is no rules or regulation that says that mandarin are only for the chinese and that chinese must know mandarin.

So it is very 'cetek' of our DPM to utter such nonsense, in order to divert the people's attention. When the media reported some discrimination against the minority being played by the government, they were always potrayed as playing the racial sentiment. But here we even have the DPM that use the racial card to fan the fire of unemployment. Can the BN government wise up and not play on racial card?

One more thing, please separate mandarin and chinese, one is the language itself (which can be learn by any other person in the world) and the other a race or same type of persons born as they are, NOT what they chose to.

PLEASE DO NOT FALL INTO BN'S TRAP TO DIVERT YOUR ATTENTION!

trex92
31-05-2006, 02:42 PM
hi freethinker, me too is from la salle-ian school. :) Unfortunately me too is a banana but i have since picked up canto and mandarin on my own. I agree to that this is also BN's diversion of attention. From young, I have been brought up with this thinking that voting for DAP is dangerous because of past events and this has always been instilled in my generation coz DAP's has always painted an extremist in my earlier impression perhaps from the negative publicity from our "independent" newspapers. It is only recently that with Kit Siang's blog, that I get to know the true DAP and its cause. I must say that with internet and its independent news, BN better watch out... Furthermore, isnt it just ironic that BN, the one that keeps promoting malaysia as a country with diverse culture and pushing for racial harmony etc etc, itself is formed based on racial ie UMNO - Malays, MCA - Chinese and MIC - Indian....

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:46 PM
.................... It's a discussion about how BN always divert the people's attention when they could not solve a problem (by looking for scapegoats). Unable to produce employable graduates in the country, and here he's telling the people "there's nothing wrong with our education system, it's these businessmen (suppossedly chinese as mandarin was involved in the argument) who caused the unemployment. The sad thing is, the people will always buy to their argument, apparently racial championing is and always will be supported. ..............
AMEN TO THAT ........

PLEASE DO NOT FALL INTO BN'S TRAP TO DIVERT YOUR ATTENTION!a double AMEN AMEN to that one .............

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:48 PM
..................To be honest, I am a Bananaman myself, .............You oso Bananaman meh ?? I thot I cornered the market in that commodity (?) :D :D ....

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:50 PM
.............me too is a banana .........Am I missing something here ..... we have banana guys cropping ( pun intended :D ) everywhere now ........ :eek: :D

kelvinwkw
31-05-2006, 02:52 PM
Equal employment opportunity is the key.

Oh dear... take a look of local University recruitment...

Is that call discrimination ??? :D

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 02:52 PM
.................. isnt it just ironic that BN, the one that keeps promoting malaysia as a country with diverse culture and pushing for racial harmony etc etc, itself is formed based on racial ie UMNO - Malays, MCA - Chinese and MIC - Indian....HEAR HEAR ........
Racial therefore, it is an obscene manifestation of every thing lewd and filthy.

orchipalar
31-05-2006, 02:57 PM
Err...dear FreeThinker:)...thanks for your pointer...it was NOT a suitable example...

The DPM shot off his brains after picking up the so called 'statistics' as the basis of his issues...where he said...

“I have checked some advertisements, where the criteria for potential employees includes being proficient in Mandarin,” he said when winding up the debate on the Ninth Malaysia Plan at Dewan Negara yesterday.

So in the case of companies offering jobs relating to funeral services...n etc. etc... which are obviously n deeply rooted to the Chinese communities...wouldn't the DPM be referring to those as well...?

or maybe then...those companies should only consider to run their ads in the Chinese dailies only...?

What would the consequences be arising from doing just that...?

n you are right...n Orchi thinks he has since got a different set of agendas even way before he became the DPM to begin with...

slappy
31-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Bigotry is very real and crosses the fabrics of our society. People tend to overlook the sensitiveness of other races, when they are encircled and engrossed with friends of same races. Few people of older generation, and may I speculate even this generation, rarely have the courage or magnanimous enough to strike up emotional deep-bonding relationship with fellow human being of another race. I'm sad to say I'm guilty of that.

Can you count how many true friends of other race that you have? Probably none, probably a handful. Can anyone vouch that they prefer to live where the majority of residents are not of the same feathers. We may not admit it, but our preference to stick to our kind is the very essence of breeding bigotry. We may not be outwardly racist but bigot, yes we maybe. The unknown breeds fear and fear breeds hatred.

Our sons and daughters need not go through lives with the walls of bigotry surrounding them. Education can only do much in shaping our children's personalities. The rest is up to our upbringing. Time is still on our side. We probably have like another 10 years to cross this generation to the next. My sincere hope is that our sons and daughter will be more sensitive and not trump up the racial cards whenever there is an issue.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

swee_ann_tweety
31-05-2006, 03:09 PM
Am I missing something here ..... we have banana guys cropping ( pun intended :D ) everywhere now ........ :eek: :D

Banana is used to describe chinese who do not know chinese. Yellow in the outside, white in the inside. In other words, their skin is yellow (chinese) but inside, they are white (only know english).

I had a Sri Lankan friend who told me that they have a similar phrase in Sri Lanka! Coconut - man :) I think I don't have to elaborate on that :)

What other fruit man do we have out there ? LOL
I bet no one came out with DURIAN MAN for only an alien can be a DURIAN MAN (Green in the outside but Yellow inside cause Chinese are Aliens ) haha :D

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Banana is used to describe chinese who do not know chinese. Yellow in the outside, white in the inside. In other words, their skin is yellow (chinese) but inside, they are white (only know english).

I had a Sri Lankan friend who told me that they have a similar phrase in Sri Lanka! Coconut - man :) I think I don't have to elaborate on that :)

What other fruit man do we have out there ? LOL
I bet no one came out with DURIAN MAN for only an alien can be a DURIAN MAN (Green in the outside but Yellow inside cause Chinese are Aliens ) haha :DThanks swee_ann_tweety.
Therefore, chang is bestowing bananas and making all of us bananas regardless of race ??????
chang, this is BAD, man.
I insist that I be issued with a mangosteen in keeping with my colour both inside and out ....... :cool: or a Sri Lankan coconut oso can ...... :D

trex92
31-05-2006, 03:16 PM
I bet no one came out with DURIAN MAN for only an alien can be a DURIAN MAN (Green in the outside but Yellow inside cause Chinese are Aliens ) haha :D

i foresee that in 100 years time when we made contact with aliens and when they settle down on earth and get too culturally influenced to the extent that they only speak english, this DURIAN MAN term would be born... :D :D

Jose Mourinho
31-05-2006, 03:20 PM
i foresee that in 100 years time when we made contact with aliens and when they settle down on earth and get too culturally influenced to the extent that they only speak english, this DURIAN MAN term would be born... :D :D

Trex. In a 100 years? With the way human beings are evoluting now and the progression they have made with their brains, in a 100 years, dinosaurs will roam this planet once again.

SunwayKid
31-05-2006, 03:20 PM
The DPM’s response, as reported by the papers was that we should remove “Mandarin-speaking” proficiency whereupon all the 85,000 graduates will then be gainfully employed. It seemed that playing the race card is the odd solution to the unemployment problem, but why is it that I get the impression that’s the gormen solution to every problem, including traffic accidents (check the other thread)!

What’s interesting is that it is OK and acceptable for a DPM to say that advertising the minority language skill as a requirement is prejudicial. But say something like that about the majority and you are immediately classified as a bigot. Why the difference? I don’t know. Whatever the reason, whilst I am entirely in favour of removing any requirements in adverts if it is indeed proven biased, at the same time, maybe the DPM should address the indigenous requirement as well.

xweird
31-05-2006, 03:30 PM
To be fair, some advertisements in retail shops DO emphasise race, not language, as a requirement. E.g. for sales assistants: chinese only. Maybe Najib was referring to these?

Jose Mourinho
31-05-2006, 03:38 PM
To be fair, some advertisements in retail shops DO emphasise race, not language, as a requirement. E.g. for sales assistants: chinese only. Maybe Najib was referring to these?

I have seen a bak-kut-teh shop advertising for 'Chinese only'. Would there be an uproar if the owner advertises 'Muslims may apply'?

:confused:

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 03:42 PM
To be fair, some advertisements in retail shops DO emphasise race, not language, as a requirement. E.g. for sales assistants: chinese only. Maybe Najib was referring to these?Possible ............ but one Al Arqam does not an entire country deviant make ........... or does it ??

Further, is Najib implying that 32% of the 80,000 wld be employed now, save for these pesky adverts ????

sori lah, to sound like an illiterate, cyber gangster ....... but I do think we Malaysians and we are too nice and being TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF !!!!!!!

silver_bird
31-05-2006, 03:42 PM
VOTE FOR BARISON NASIONAL

Joe Gomez
31-05-2006, 03:43 PM
VOTE FOR BARISON NASIONAL[COLOR=Red]BARI-SON Aiyoh !!! dont we have enough rising sons and sons-in-law ke ? :D :D :D

slappy
31-05-2006, 03:49 PM
I have seen a bak-kut-teh shop advertising for 'Chinese only'. Would there be an uproar if the owner advertises 'Muslims may apply'?

:confused:

Oh gosh... That's not discrimination but being sensitive and informative. It's not similar to segregation in the 50's in America, where the put "white only" in front of their shops or "no Jews" area in Europe before WWII.

Why would someone invite trouble by hiring Muslims to apply in a bah kut teh shop? That would be blatantly insensitive. Common sense would prevail for bah kut teh owners, I hope.

Jose Mourinho
31-05-2006, 03:53 PM
Oh gosh... That's not discrimination but being sensitive and informative. It's not similar to segregation in the 50's in America, where the put "white only" in front of their shops or "no Jews" area in Europe before WWII. Why would someone invite trouble by hiring Muslims to apply in a bah kut teh shop? That would be blatantly insensitive. Common sense would prevail for bah kut teh owners, I hope.

Thank you. Exactly my thoughts. So the bottom line is that as a Deputy Prime Minister, common sense should prevail also. If a bak-kut-teh owner should have common sense in such a situation, then a DPM with a degree from Nottingham University should have some common sense and sensitivity too. Yes?

:)

burntan
31-05-2006, 03:56 PM
Hello Orchi,

The example you have given is not a good one if you wanted to point out racial discrimination. Do you really think that any person other than a chinese with different culture would in their right mind work for a chinese cemetary or funeral company? Especially when there is religion involved in the job? (Remember you have to get used to all the paper dolls, joss sticks, etc.) Even a chinese who knows mandarin but is a christian will not even consider about it for a second.

In actual FACT, in REALITY, there are non-chinese Malay speaking workers working in Chinese cemetary or funeral company. I personally see them wearing the uniform and help passing the joss sticks around.

yankeat
31-05-2006, 03:59 PM
To be fair, some advertisements in retail shops DO emphasise race, not language, as a requirement. E.g. for sales assistants: chinese only. Maybe Najib was referring to these?

Yes, I agree these should not be advertised. I came across these advertisements, but only occasionally. However, I also came across advertisements which wants other races as well.

I do not agree that this is the main cause that 85000 graduates cannot secure a job.

I am reading the book "The world is flat", and i couldn't agree more with the author, that if we have problem, we need to do occasional health check on our systems, be prepared to accept the truth and change our mindset that we are competing with people in China, India, Japan, Russia, US... and no longer with poeple who live next door.

These are the reason that brought down Eygpt, Mexico, etc etc... and bringing down US(yes, US is coming down if they still do not change their mindset), Malaysia and other countries as well.

wsl
31-05-2006, 04:28 PM
Our DPM should highlight what the 85,000 unemployed graduates were graduated with. I would say the bulk would be in religious studies, anthropology and sociology, certain race culture. The balance are those who just scape past their exams even after being tutored with the exams questions. As for the smart and lazy students, they would befriend with these students to get a glimpse of the exams questions. :D :D :D

I was told recently that many of these race students were forced to take up medicine and each time they had exams would go to see the lecturer and cry. :eek: :eek: :eek:

KakiLang
31-05-2006, 06:38 PM
If we state in one of our job requirements as "Mandarin speaking is an added advantage", would it be seen as discriminatory in this case?

sikkigoh
31-05-2006, 07:25 PM
Is Malaysia looking outwards or inwards?

We need to compete for opportunities and Malaysia being a plural society has an advantage in communicating with the world. In order to do that languages plays a very important role. Therefore, for our local companies to do businesses world wide they need employees that have language proficiency. How can we grow the cake if we only look inwards? Every Malaysian knows that in order to grow the economic cake and provide employment we need to look outwards that means to compete with the rest of the world.

When they is a large number of unemployed blame it on other languages, other races, etc. This is not the first time discrimanatory statements are made. When job advertisements requires only "B" no complain, no press statement. Why not look at our education policies? The unemployed are created by our education system that is steer by the education policy made by the government. Don't put blame on others. Question ourselves is the education policies correctly producing the right human resource for the business world.

So why not look at the problem positively. Encourage all Malaysian to learn languages to enhence our competitive advantage and thus economic growth. By so doing we can also helpd to solve racial pluralism in a way. Those unemployed needs to equiped themselves with knowledge that are required by the industries. I think these subject had been discuss many a time. Equiped yourselves. Do you know that knowledge also include proficiency in foreign languages.

Companies are here to do business. In order survive and to do business they need the right human resource with the right competencies. Companies are not created to give hands out or provide social welfare.

If that is how our leaders view things how can we progress? How can businesses expand and compete in a global village? It is really very sad to read about such a news report especially of DPM. I wonder how he is going to steer Malaysia towards the future when he become PM. When our leaders make such a press statement is it good for Malaysia as a whole? Personally its shallow thinking and no progressive vision for the country.

Think and talk Malaysian.

God Bless Malaysia.

Teeque
31-05-2006, 07:45 PM
Hence, we need a new tagline. Its GLOMAL, no more glocal lah...

PROSKY
31-05-2006, 08:58 PM
Now with the MNCs' downsizing their operation and a considerable number of them shifting their operation to China, less and less job opportunitues are available.Additionally, when you drive around the Klang valley, you hardly find any new factories being erected unlike the nineties- boom time. Hence the number of unemployed graduates will definitely increased over the years unless the Gomen do something to reverse this trend. One way out is definitely to be proficient in Mandarin where you can work for a foreign company in China.We Malaysians are definitely a plus lot with a multi-lingual background.Why not the Gomen consider Mandarin as a compulsory second language?

pucman
31-05-2006, 09:46 PM
Well, if we talk about discrimination against race, religion as went to their sales office. Sales is open to Muslims only for the first year. They will open to public after that, if there are unsold units remaining (not likely, it's 50% sold already). Their registration form will ask you to tick (1) Muslim and Bumi, (2) Bumi only, (3) Muslim only.

).

I remember trying to buy a house, there were two separate queues, one for bumi and one for non-bumi. Isn't this 'discrimination' :rolleyes: ?

I thought it looked like the apartheid days in south africa where there are different queues for different races.

KelvC
31-05-2006, 09:48 PM
What is discriminatory?

Preference to -
1. Race
2. Skin colour
3. Hair colour
4. Eye colour
5. Height
6. Weight (Size)
7. Family background
8. Financial background
9. Car
10. Language
11. Degree
12. Nationality
13. ......... baby's calling, can someone else fill the remaining points? :D

aurora97
31-05-2006, 10:32 PM
This few week our gov has been bringing up trivial issues like:

1. Graduates not patriotic for not coming back to work in their home country.
2. Sarawak election "other races" being hantam for not voting the right party.
3. And now languge is a problem ??

i am kind of worried our MP seem to be keen on digging up the wrong dirt, just to have a flare or say in parliament (make some noise to make his/her presence felt). Should we be tackling more urgent issues, poverty, medi-care, development, economic progress and so forth?

silver_bird
31-05-2006, 10:42 PM
Ministry To Advise Employers To Be More Open

PUTRAJAYA, May 31 (Bernama) -- The Ministry of Human Resources will advise private sector employers to be more open in their recruitment criteria.
Its minister, Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn said imposing certain conditions in their criteria for recruitment such as requiring the candidates to be proficient in Mandarin would only be to the detriment of the employers.

"I will give advice to the employers. If there is restriction, it means that they are reducing the pool for recruitment. This will not give any benefit to the employers.

"Employers, if they have this kind of unreasonable conditions, they are only restricting themselves, in terms of recruitment.

"It is much better for them to enlarge the pool. After all, command of languages can be done through in-service courses, whether Mandarin or English," he told reporters after receiving a courtesy call by the Nepalese Deputy Prime Minister, Sharma Oli, who is also Nepal's Foreign Minister, a his office, here Wednesday.

He said this when asked to comment on the statement by Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak Tuesday, urging private companies to stop the practice of imposing biased conditions in the criteria for recruitment such as requiring job applicants to be proficient in Mandarin.

Describing the imposition of such conditions as unfair, Fong said what was important was that the workers were diligent, highly spirited and keen to learn the languages required.

"The employers can organise courses so that they can learn, that's what matters," he said.

On his meeting with Sharma Oli, who is also Nepal's Labour Minister, he said Nepal was keen to supply its women workers to work in this country.

Fong said the ministry had no objection to this and it was up to the employers whether they were keen to employ these workers.

He said currently there were about 200,000 Nepalese working in Malaysia, all of whom were men.

Meanwhile in MELAKA, Chief Minister Datuk Seri Mohd Ali Rustam said placing a condition requiring job applicants to be proficient in Mandarin was a form of discrimination which should not have been permitted.

He said such a condition would certainly prevent others who could not speak Mandarin from gaining employment.

"I feel private companies should not impose the condition on proficiency in Mandarin especially among the Malays and Indians. In fact, there are also Chinese people who cannot speak Mandarin," he told reporters after chairing the weekly State Exco meeting at the Seri Negeri.

Mohd Ali, who is also Umno vice-president, said if there were complaints by workers who were required to meet such a condition, they could forward their complaints to the state government.

"We will call up the companies concerned and advise them not to impose such conditions as they are not reasonable and should not have been imposed," said the Chief Minister who had also studied Mandarin before.

BERNAMA
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=201042

kwgoh
31-05-2006, 11:01 PM
To be fair, some advertisements in retail shops DO emphasise race, not language, as a requirement. E.g. for sales assistants: chinese only. Maybe Najib was referring to these?

Maybe the shops are selling non-halal foods and >90% of their customers are Chinese?

KelvC
31-05-2006, 11:07 PM
A backlash from the governing camp for the dismal result in the East. This is a display to show their canines to show who is the real boss and anticipating that this would keep some back into their seats. But would it?

silver_bird
31-05-2006, 11:14 PM
MCA Party Constitution
http://www.mca.org.my/aboutmca/constitution.asp

The Party's aims and objectives among others:

- To safeguard and defend the independence and sovereignty of Malaysia;

- To safeguard and uphold the Constitution of Malaysia;

- To uphold and safeguard the system of parliamentary and democratic government on a multi-racial basis;

- To secure and maintain the enforcement of human rights, correction of injustice and help for the under-privileged;

- To ensure the recognition of and the safeguarding of the legitimate rights and interests of Malaysians of Chinese descent and the legitimate rights and interests of all other communities as provided under the Malaysian Constitution;

- To maintain, foster and promote goodwill and harmony among the citizens of various races in Malaysia to ensure the peaceful progress and growth of a strong and united nation;

- To foster, safeguard, advance and secure the political, social, educational, cultural, economic and other interests of Malaysians of Chinese descent by legitimate and constitutional means;

- To consider, assist and deal with problems affecting its members as a whole and to take steps as may be necessary for their welfare and advancement;

- To promote the development and utilisation of the economic assets of the country for the benefit of the citizens of the country as a whole;

- To work for and promote a high standard of living by increasing and improving the productivity of the country;

- To promote and maintain social justice, economic security and equal opportunities for every citizen of this country;

- To encourage, establish and develop co-operative activities;

- To work with other political organisations with similar aims and objectives registered within Malaysia to encourage the healthy development of party politics;

To preserve and sustain the use and study of the Chinese language, and to ensure that its use, teaching or learning shall not be prohibited or prevented in the conext of Article 152 of the Malaysian Constitution; Generally to do all such acts and things not enumerated in the preceding sub-Articles for the well-being of the Party and its members.


Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn is also MCA Vice-President.
Going by his directive as above, will he be helping the Party to preserve & sustaining the use and study of the Chinese Language etc ?

jianwei85
31-05-2006, 11:18 PM
I remember trying to buy a house, there were two separate queues, one for bumi and one for non-bumi. Isn't this 'discrimination' :rolleyes: ?

I thought it looked like the apartheid days in south africa where there are different queues for different races.

hey...i helped camp out (until nite only la..my dad overnite) at Wisma UEP taipan for the current house that i lived in la...trust me..bumi got a preferred line..my dad n i have to wait 4 them to 'select' 1st..

leewinnie46
31-05-2006, 11:24 PM
I have not read all the reply in this thread but keen to share this with everyone who have interest in discriminatory practices in other country. :D

http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_practices.html

palmdoc
31-05-2006, 11:38 PM
The fundamental point is the job seeker should equip him or herself with what the Employer seeks instead of the other way around.
Is the DPM asking employers to forgo their requirements just to suit those that cannot qualify? What a joke.

So is MAS in hiring cabin crew being discriminatory against short people below 157cm?
Is a software company being discriminatory against those who don't know the C++ language?
Is the JPA being discriminatory in requiring potential civil servants a pass (or is it credit?) in BM?
The truly discriminatory practices are those which overtly advertise for jobs specifying "race, color, religion".
You know when you point fingers, three fingers point back at you. Someone should tell the DPM that.

ginaphan
31-05-2006, 11:42 PM
Welcome back gina ........... wherefore werest thou ???? :D :D

Me in Singapura right now. Nice to be missed.

(sorry for the digression)

patrick
01-06-2006, 12:45 AM
so, what do you suggest the other races who can't speak mandarin do for a leaving?!! stick on to tapping rubber trees and slog at the paddy fields?

just curious.....

Lord, please dont omit the chinese<like yours truly> who also cant speak Mandarin! Plant bananas? Heh heh!! Luckily retired.....!!!

jianwei85
01-06-2006, 12:46 AM
The fundamental point is the job seeker should equip him or herself with what the Employer seeks instead of the other way around.
Is the DPM asking employers to forgo their requirements just to suit those that cannot qualify? What a joke.

So is MAS in hiring cabin crew being discriminatory against short people below 157cm?
Is a software company being discriminatory against those who don't know the C++ language?
Is the JPA being discriminatory in requiring potential civil servants a pass (or is it credit?) in BM?
The truly discriminatory practices are those which overtly advertise for jobs specifying "race, color, religion".
You know when you point fingers, three fingers point back at you. Someone should tell the DPM that.

Wonderful. :) That was what i had in mind. What are discriminatory requirements? I think if they compile a list of 'discriminatory' requirements going on in malaysia...sure as long as Star Wars.. :)

bm007snr
01-06-2006, 02:32 AM
Yes, i guess it's only 'racist' if an employer asks for a certain race, unless he/she can justify why the need for a certain race to fill the position matters.
Racist is a negative thing.

As for 'the ability to speak mandarin' as a requirement.. it's just not 'racist' and does not contribute to anything negative.
The ability to speak a certain language can be crucial in certain situations.
So... it's just definitely not racist to command a certain requirement in language.
And most importantly, it ain't discriminatory in any negative way.

Simple :D

chookyan
01-06-2006, 09:05 AM
MCA Party Constitution
http://www.mca.org.my/aboutmca/constitution.asp

The Party's aims and objectives among others:

- To safeguard and defend the independence and sovereignty of Malaysia;

- To safeguard and uphold the Constitution of Malaysia;

- To uphold and safeguard the system of parliamentary and democratic government on a multi-racial basis;

- To secure and maintain the enforcement of human rights, correction of injustice and help for the under-privileged;

- To ensure the recognition of and the safeguarding of the legitimate rights and interests of Malaysians of Chinese descent and the legitimate rights and interests of all other communities as provided under the Malaysian Constitution;

- To maintain, foster and promote goodwill and harmony among the citizens of various races in Malaysia to ensure the peaceful progress and growth of a strong and united nation;

- To foster, safeguard, advance and secure the political, social, educational, cultural, economic and other interests of Malaysians of Chinese descent by legitimate and constitutional means;

- To consider, assist and deal with problems affecting its members as a whole and to take steps as may be necessary for their welfare and advancement;

- To promote the development and utilisation of the economic assets of the country for the benefit of the citizens of the country as a whole;

- To work for and promote a high standard of living by increasing and improving the productivity of the country;

- To promote and maintain social justice, economic security and equal opportunities for every citizen of this country;

- To encourage, establish and develop co-operative activities;

- To work with other political organisations with similar aims and objectives registered within Malaysia to encourage the healthy development of party politics;

To preserve and sustain the use and study of the Chinese language, and to ensure that its use, teaching or learning shall not be prohibited or prevented in the conext of Article 152 of the Malaysian Constitution; Generally to do all such acts and things not enumerated in the preceding sub-Articles for the well-being of the Party and its members.


Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn is also MCA Vice-President.
Going by his directive as above, will he be helping the Party to preserve & sustaining the use and study of the Chinese Language etc ?


Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn is also MCA Vice-President.
Going by his directive as above, will he be helping the Party to preserve & sustaining the use and study of the Chinese Language etc ? - THE ANSWER IS NO and IS MCA DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT - The answer is again NO. After all MCA = Money Conquer ALL

winter
01-06-2006, 09:26 AM
<<Its minister, Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn said imposing certain conditions in their criteria for recruitment such as requiring the candidates to be proficient in Mandarin would only be to the detriment of the employers.

"I will give advice to the employers. If there is restriction, it means that they are reducing the pool for recruitment. This will not give any benefit to the employers.

"Employers, if they have this kind of unreasonable conditions, they are only restricting themselves, in terms of recruitment.>>


IMO, only the employer knows what benefits they gain, not anyone else.
Unreasonable conditions... tat's a "stewpid" comment larrr...

dragonfly
01-06-2006, 10:48 AM
I am a non chinese and non bumi.....but I send my youngest daughter to chinese kindergarten and have enrolled her in a chinese school. Why? My daughter being a non bumi and seeing the present trend, it is almost impossible for her to secure a job in the public sector.....even with a good qualification. Her only hope is the private sector and mandarin, besides her mother tongue, English and Bahasa is definetely an added advantage and the field for employment is wider. Private businesses are now more and more customer oriented and a multi lingual employee is definetely and asset.

Recently there was a report in the papers that there is an increase in the number of Malay parents enrolling their children in chinese schools. It shows that more Malays are coming out of their nutshells and discarding their mindset that it is unpatriotic to learn other languages....to better equip themselves to globalisation and realisation that the jobs in the govt is not enough for our mass produced graduates. Perhaps Najip is too ignorant of the facts!

saml
01-06-2006, 10:53 AM
I wont be surprised if he himself sends his children to learn chinese albeit in an international school!!.

burntan
01-06-2006, 01:04 PM
If a company really require a staff that can speak Mandarin in order to do the job, like communicate to their China business partners, then it is reasonable to put such condition for employment advert.

However, I think what our DPM and Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn refering is those narrow minded "China Man" companies who use this "lopehole" to hire only their race, which is clearly a racial discrimination act.

I have a friend who happen to know Mandarin going for one of this company for interview, the boss seem like so surprise to see a non-chinese turn up, he then just being asked to fill up a form without interview. What do you think?

If you have a lot of Malay friends, you will get a lot of this kind of stories, in reality is there really that much of jobs require knowledge of Mandarin? One of my friend going for a job as a nurse in a local clinic also being told they prefere "chinese speaking" people.

totoro
01-06-2006, 01:14 PM
If a company really require a staff that can speak Mandarin in order to do the job, like communicate to their China business partners, then it is reasonable to put such condition for employment advert.

However, I think what our DPM and Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn refering is those narrow minded "China Man" companies who use this "lopehole" to hire only their race, which is clearly a racial discrimination act.

I have a friend who happen to know Mandarin going for one of this company for interview, the boss seem like so surprise to see a non-chinese turn up, he then just being asked to fill up a form without interview. What do you think?

If you have a lot of Malay friends, you will get a lot of this kind of stories, in reality is there really that much of jobs require knowledge of Mandarin? One of my friend going for a job as a nurse in a local clinic also being told they prefere "chinese speaking" people.

It is discriminatory to pick on one race when this practise is being done by other races as well, as pointed out here:

http://locumavailable.blogspot.com/?

Looking for malay doctors.
Indian/Malay Doctor needed.
Looking for a Chinese doctor.

But here's one that's a valid criteria:

We have full time position open for doctor with Interest in preventive cardiology, gastroenterology, pediatrics or family medicine, with excellent communication skills in English, Bahasa and Chinese, at least 5 years of clinical experience.

For all the debate on what the DPM meant, why don't we start going through the ads and see for ourselves if what has been claimed is true, and if discrimination exists.

IMHO, even if a "Chinaman" boss prefers to hire people who can speak Chinese, it's his choice and preference and he may even have very good reasons. It's plain silly to ask this boss to instead hire people who can't speak Chinese, then pay for them to take courses to learn Chinese.

saml
01-06-2006, 02:06 PM
Maybe it would be wiser for those companies to quietly screen all those 'unqualified' candidates as is being done now by some companies/statutory bodies. Otherwise how can you account for the majority of one race in those companies/statutory bodies?

silver_bird
01-06-2006, 05:46 PM
Bumiputra demand is discriminatory
Editted News as comparison :-

KUALA LUMPUR: The Public & Private sector should stop the practice of making it compulsory for local graduates to be Bumiputra, Datuk Seri Nah Jeep said.

He urged them to be open in accepting and training local graduates without including certain requirements and looking at their background.

“I have checked some advertisements, where the criteria for potential employees must be Bumiputra,” he said.

“It is discriminatory. Such a practice should stop.”
__________________________________________________ ____________

How nice if the above statement is a reality.
We'll be proud to call ourselves as true MALAYSIAN, no race barrier.
We can live in harmony and acieve our goal to be a successful nation.
Why don't AAB, Nah Jeep, OKT, LKY, SVelu etc think of existing discrimination ?

yankeat
01-06-2006, 06:28 PM
It is discriminatory to pick on one race when this practise is being done by other races as well, as pointed out here:

http://locumavailable.blogspot.com/?



I've scanned the front page... out of 19 ads...
10 are discriminatory
-1 requested for Female Locum
-4 requested for Chinese Locum
-5 requested for Malay Locum
-1 requested for Indian Locum

9 non-discriminatory

orchipalar
01-06-2006, 06:58 PM
Err...Orchi has nOT been reading much into the job adverts these days...but would appreciate if anyone kind would tell Orchi...how the job vacancy advert issued by the various governmental ministries or departments would sound like...????

silver_bird
01-06-2006, 07:23 PM
Quote :- Orchipalar
Err...Orchi has nOT been reading much into the job adverts these days...but would appreciate if anyone kind would tell Orchi...how the job vacancy advert issued by the various governmental ministries or departments would sound like...????

Operasi Isi Penuh

In 1980, the government, faced with a pressing need for employment creation, launched a massive recruitment in the public service called Operasi Penuh. Since 1979, it had often been declared that there were 880,000 public sector employees. I believe that there were 1.12 million employees after Operasi Isi Penuh was conducted.

Strangely, non-bumiputeras were generally bypassed in this exercise. After that general recruitment in the public sector - except for teachers and nurses - this policy was reversed because of an austerity drive, resulting in a very small presence of non-bumiputeras in the public service.

It is difficult to rectify this disproportionate employment of the non-bumiputras in the public sector now. During festive holidays at the end of Ramadhan, when there are mass leave applications by bumiputera employees, most government departments are under-staffed, virtually non-functioning.

Although this results in public dissatisfaction, the unions have no choice but to defend the rights of their members to go on leave to be with their loved ones during the Muslim festive times.

http://www.aliran.com/oldsite/monthly/2003/8d.html

truthseeker
02-06-2006, 12:08 AM
Hey Najis (Najib), haven't you heard of an old saying which goes like this:

People who stay in glass houses should not throw stones? You are just like a pot calling the kettle black!

Now it is time for you to eat back your own words, and I would like to suggest this to you in parallel of what you suggested to the Rakyat in the wake of the increase in fuel prices. Bear in mind that ALL TRUTHS ARE PARALLEL!

Whether you like it or not, you must change your lifestyle in order to adapt to the local working environment whereby most private employers speak mainly Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese and Hokkien), and also to be compete in the current global market with China being the largest.

In order to achieve this, you must be a "Melayu Glokal" because you are competing locally as well as globally!

Besides, you must rid yourself of the "translator mentality". You cannot always expect a translator to help you break the language and cultural barrier, and at the same time negotiate business deals on your behalf. You must learn the hard way -- learn and master the Chinese language if you want to have a substantial slice of cake in the world's #1 economic powerhouse.

Doesn't this strike a chord or ring a bell? If it does, then with the same token, stop playing the racist card which you and your UMNOputras have been practising for umpteen years. Most probably you must be speaking this out from your ass instead of your brain when you yourself were the one making such discriminatory remarks.

Lastly, blame it on yourself and your 85,000 unemployable Malay graduates who still can't secure a job due to sheer ignorance, and tell them to change their lifestyles and their stupid mentality instead of telling the Chinese speaking employers to change their "discriminatory" requirements.

kwchang
02-06-2006, 12:23 AM
truthseeker,
you may be the record breaker - securing a banana on your very first post.

I do not see why is there a need for that blast. Name calling is not allowed here and I would like you to know that making sweeping racist statements is in very bad taste (the last paragraph). We do not take this very lightly. :mad:

de_scorpio
02-06-2006, 12:35 AM
i would learn Tamil if any oportunity comes by in India.
I am learning Thai and Japanese now. A few friends of mine in Mainland China are taking a degree in english, Japanese and Malay. can u believe it?

swee_ann_tweety
02-06-2006, 09:43 AM
Please correct me if I am wrong. I always hear that government projects are given to 100% bumiputera organisations. Is it true ?

burntan
02-06-2006, 01:07 PM
Please correct me if I am wrong. I always hear that government projects are given to 100% bumiputera organisations. Is it true ?

Not true! Remember the Gerbang Perdana that awarded the southern bridge project? Vicent Tan hold 40% shares under 2 of his companies.

burntan
02-06-2006, 01:11 PM
BTW, I don't see any restriction for non-bumi to apply for the vacantcy in Police and Army force..... what happen to them? Can someone please enlighten me on this?

FreeThinker
02-06-2006, 02:30 PM
However, I think what our DPM and Datuk Seri Dr Fong Chan Onn refering is those narrow minded "China Man" companies who use this "lopehole" to hire only their race, which is clearly a racial discrimination act.

I have a friend who happen to know Mandarin going for one of this company for interview, the boss seem like so surprise to see a non-chinese turn up, he then just being asked to fill up a form without interview. What do you think?

If you have a lot of Malay friends, you will get a lot of this kind of stories, in reality is there really that much of jobs require knowledge of Mandarin? One of my friend going for a job as a nurse in a local clinic also being told they prefere "chinese speaking" people.

burntan,

I do not agree with your view. Firstly, when you already said "Chinaman", which I presume these bosses are not fluent in English nor Bahasa, do you think they will have a problem with communication? These "Chinaman" probably did not even have entered school for education. So what's wrong with needing to employ someone who you could talk to? I think what FCO did was to be diplomatic(read bodek, interestingly I realised I do not know the equivalent word in English!) since the DPM had already voiced out his unhappiness.

For the second point, I agree that this case is discriminatory. No doubt.

In reality, is there so many jobs requiring mandarin? Well, let's put it this way, everyone knows Bahasa if they ever go to a school (profient or not is another matter). English is known to be the business language most part of the world, everyone knows it, so it was understood to be a undeclared requirement(If you could not communicate in English, well good luck in your interview!). Tamil is only communicated in Sri Lanka and part of South India and as far as I know it is not the national Language(correct me if I'm wrong). And then, Mandarin, well if you are working in the private sector(and not dealing too much with Govt, it is sure an added advantage as you will some time in point meet some customers who are "Chinaman". Actually, most of the time will be more accurate. And then there is the "China" factor which most Malaysian companies are eyeing. So what's wrong if I wanted to hire someone who knows more languages?

As for your final point about the need for mandarin in a local clinic, well there are many reasons they want a mandarin speaking only. The clinic might have more percentage of chinese customers, or they already have a non-chinese nurse and want someone who could speak mandarin to communicate with the elder chinese, or like you point out, they could also be discriminate against another race. But let's just not jump the gun.

To be honest, I agree taht there are some companies which are discriminatory. Just look at also how some companies boldly put the "Bumi only" sign in their advert. But wait, there is also the requirement from the govt. for foreign companies to have certain percentage of "Bumi" employees. Isn't this discrimination? So when you have a govt. who discriminate against the minority, it is very difficult for the minority not to protect their own community. No?

FreeThinker
02-06-2006, 02:32 PM
In actual FACT, in REALITY, there are non-chinese Malay speaking workers working in Chinese cemetary or funeral company. I personally see them wearing the uniform and help passing the joss sticks around.

Really? That's new to me. Is he/she a Muslim? As I understand, Muslim/Christian has a rule that forbid them to hold a joss stick. No?

FreeThinker
02-06-2006, 02:39 PM
Hey Najis (Najib), haven't you heard of an old saying which goes like this:


truthseeker,

We understood your frustation towards the govn. or to be specific the DPM, but please do not be emotional and racist. Your blast seems to me like you are no better than the DPM, in terms of racism.

Please be rational with your every word in this thread. This is a thread for every community, not a single race community. This website is for us to point out the wrong-doings of the power that be so that people are aware of them and vote against them to show our dissatisfaction. Otherwise, there tends to be corrupt and discrimination practices.

burntan
02-06-2006, 02:55 PM
burntan,

I do not agree with your view. Firstly, when you already said "Chinaman", which I presume these bosses are not fluent in English nor Bahasa, do you think they will have a problem with communication? These "Chinaman" probably did not even have entered school for education. So what's wrong with needing to employ someone who you could talk to? I think what FCO did was to be diplomatic(read bodek, interestingly I realised I do not know the equivalent word in English!) since the DPM had already voiced out his unhappiness.

For the second point, I agree that this case is discriminatory. No doubt.

In reality, is there so many jobs requiring mandarin? Well, let's put it this way, everyone knows Bahasa if they ever go to a school (profient or not is another matter). English is known to be the business language most part of the world, everyone knows it, so it was understood to be a undeclared requirement(If you could not communicate in English, well good luck in your interview!). Tamil is only communicated in Sri Lanka and part of South India and as far as I know it is not the national Language(correct me if I'm wrong). And then, Mandarin, well if you are working in the private sector(and not dealing too much with Govt, it is sure an added advantage as you will some time in point meet some customers who are "Chinaman". Actually, most of the time will be more accurate. And then there is the "China" factor which most Malaysian companies are eyeing. So what's wrong if I wanted to hire someone who knows more languages?

As for your final point about the need for mandarin in a local clinic, well there are many reasons they want a mandarin speaking only. The clinic might have more percentage of chinese customers, or they already have a non-chinese nurse and want someone who could speak mandarin to communicate with the elder chinese, or like you point out, they could also be discriminate against another race. But let's just not jump the gun.

To be honest, I agree taht there are some companies which are discriminatory. Just look at also how some companies boldly put the "Bumi only" sign in their advert. But wait, there is also the requirement from the govt. for foreign companies to have certain percentage of "Bumi" employees. Isn't this discrimination? So when you have a govt. who discriminate against the minority, it is very difficult for the minority not to protect their own community. No?

After 49 years since we Merdeka and still using the excuses of "not fluent in Bahasa"? What's their problem? Isn't Bahasa Melayu our national languague? Don't they feel shame to claim to be a Malaysian without understand the Malay language? Don't you feel sad that we are required to know "Chinease" to work in MALAYsia but not the Bahasa?

Like I said, I have no problem for companies to hire Mandarin speaking people to do business with China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, but local business doing business with the local only have no excuse to asking for "Chinese speaking" people only for the job.


So when you have a govt. who discriminate against the minority, it is very difficult for the minority not to protect their own community. No?

We can see this from the other way, when the govt. see that the majority is being discriminate by the minority, the govt. start protecting the weaker majority. No?

swee_ann_tweety
02-06-2006, 02:55 PM
BTW, I don't see any restriction for non-bumi to apply for the vacantcy in Police and Army force..... what happen to them? Can someone please enlighten me on this?
in this respect, yes I do recall the government calling more non-bumiputras to join the force.

AllUrban
02-06-2006, 03:17 PM
Really? That's new to me. Is he/she a Muslim? As I understand, Muslim/Christian has a rule that forbid them to hold a joss stick. No?Joss stick and incense stick are the same thing, no?

I can recall no rules about incense sticks...

I use incense sticks in my home, my mum who is a practicing muslim uses incense sticks also...the reason is simple...make the house smell nice :p

There are guidlines in Islam about following/imitating the cultural practices of non-muslims...written 1300 years ago in a time when muslims were a persecuted religious minority in a land of polytheistic idol worship.

Whoever came up with this idea of not touching joss sticks is really following poor logic...just because some people use joss sticks for worship, that doesnt make them against your faith...they are just objects

That would be like telling me I couldnt eat a flat circular wafer or red wine...and just to be safe, I should avoid no wafer-based chocolates or grape juice :p

I have heard some interesting stories along these lines tho...

*I remember watching one uncle smashing a snowman to bits because he felt it was the construction of an idol
*I recall another uncle saying that chess is forbidden because the pieces are figures
(I suppose that this would make tic tac toe forbidden as well...the cross and circle are religious symbols)
*I recall one person telling me that playing cards was forbidden because it was gambling...even if you werent actually gambling

Not all of these people were muslim, either :)

Cheers, m

totoro
02-06-2006, 03:35 PM
After 49 years since we Merdeka and still using the excuses of "not fluent in Bahasa"? What's their problem? Isn't Bahasa Melayu our national languague? Don't they feel shame to claim to be a Malaysian without understand the Malay language? Don't you feel sad that we are required to know "Chinease" to work in MALAYsia but not the Bahasa?
I humbly disagree. In the same way plenty of Chinese do not speak/read/write Mandarin, the same applies to the Malays, as I have experienced this myself when I was back in school. Plenty of Malays and Chinese alike failed rudimentary BM in school as well. Are we discriminating against Malays who do not possess the Malay language skill by making it a requirement for the job?

It does seem to be a fact that both the English and Malay languages are very widely spoken by all Malaysians. However, Mandarin on the other hand simply did not draw interest from most parties, despite it being offered as a optional subject in national education and examinations, including PMR and SPM. Whose fault is that? Why are we perhaps trying to shift the blame?

The argument put forward earlier made a lot of sense. In the context that this was put forward, the issue is actually of local graduates being unemployed. Now, if we accepted that companies can give non-Mandarin competent folks a chance in the company, just how many of these 28,000 graduates will then suddenly become employable in Malaysia?

ginaphan
02-06-2006, 03:54 PM
......but local business doing business with the local only have no excuse to asking for "Chinese speaking" people only for the job."

I did asked where this information can be certified?


After 49 years since we Merdeka and still using the excuses of "not fluent in Bahasa"? What's their problem? Isn't Bahasa Melayu our national language? Don't they feel shame to claim to be a Malaysian without understand the Malay language? Don't you feel sad that we are required to know "Chinease" to work in MALAYsia but not the Bahasa?

Yes, it is sad. However, we need to remember that education in full BM was only introduced for the people born after 1962. And the standard of BM back then was not as good as it is now.

By the way, what is the definition of "Chinaman"?

AllUrban
02-06-2006, 03:58 PM
After 49 years since we Merdeka and still using the excuses of "not fluent in Bahasa"? What's their problem? Isn't Bahasa Melayu our national languague? Don't they feel shame to claim to be a Malaysian without understand the Malay language? Don't you feel sad that we are required to know "Chinease" to work in MALAYsia but not the Bahasa?No offence meant here, but merdeka from what? Not controlled by UK anymore? Still using UK systems, still respecting UK education system, and still maintaining the UK way of running things....and following the UK pattern of dividing society to keep the so-called elite in power

The only difference is that the british are no longer the so-called elite...instead the people who once worked with them have moved up in the rankings...the MCAs and MICs and UMNOs.

Malaysia has many competitive advantages but it is not using them to the fullest

The reason is because too many people profit from maintaining these divisions in Malaysian society.

Resolve those divisions, and Malaysia will be unbeatable.

Cheers, m

orchipalar
02-06-2006, 03:58 PM
Err...those days there used to be many Chinese who don't send some of their childrens or all of their childrens to schools...even if they did...many kids only had like few weeks or months...or few years of short formal education...mostly in primary school level....[Orchi's late Mom only attended 4 night classes n Orchi's Dad(never attended classes) still don't read well(except numerics n horse punting mag) or write alphabets(in capital letters only) till these days]

1. Schools were located far.
2. They could not afford it.
3. They need to growing up kids to work to supplement the household income tending to farms...or help out at home to tend to the house chores or look after the siblings...etc.
4. Some of them still believed that their daughters do not need formal education.

So...many Chinese employers(Chinaman business) in the age group from 40+ and above...have NOT had much formal educations...or even if they do...they would have had attended only Chinese primary schools those days...

n many of this group of bosses could best speak with broken BM n many with broken English...but conducts their business n run their companies mainly with the local Chinese dialects...n Mandarin.

winter
02-06-2006, 04:37 PM
So...many Chinese employers(Chinaman business) in the age group from 40+ and above...have NOT had much formal educations...or even if they do...they would have had attended only Chinese primary schools those days...

n many of this group of bosses could best speak with broken BM n many with broken English...but conducts their business n run their companies mainly with the local Chinese dialects...n Mandarin.

Agree with orchi. Not everyone has the priviledge be educated in those early days.

My brother got a Malay boy to do all the admin work just bcos he knows that most of the times, he needs to deal with govt dept. and tat has some advantages, which u know i know. So, it's the same concept apply to prefer mandarin speaking employer. What's wrong with that??? and wat's the % of ads stating "Mandarin speaking a must" ?

"pick bones in egg"

FreeThinker
02-06-2006, 04:48 PM
Orchi Thank you for explaining on my behalf! This is what I am trying to tell burntan.

burntan,
you are generalising when you say "Don't they feel shame to claim to be a Malaysian without understand the Malay language? Don't you feel sad that we are required to know "Chinease" to work in MALAYsia but not the Bahasa?" Like Orchi said, most of the "Chinaman" are middle-aged, with no prior education background. Even if they have some background, they will most likely deal with "Chinaman" as well as they would be speaking only good mandarin or other dialects but not English or BM. I also feel sad in this case, but not because I require to know chinese but not BM to work in Malaysia, it is because these "Chinaman" could not afford decent education in their time, hence they are now labelled as discriminatory by the govt.

The younger generation in this case, the younger chinese generation of businessmen as I understand, uses only English in their daily business environment. So there would not be a requirement unless it is necessary in the jobscope. So I do not see why there is such a big hoo haa about mandarin requirement.

by the way, is it just me or are you purposely highlighting "chinease" and "MALAYsia"? What are you implying?

burntan
02-06-2006, 05:18 PM
I don't know about you, but I can see a lot of "chinaman" tauke able to communication in Malay when they trying to sell something to Malay: "Lu beli dua, wa boleh kasi murah sikit"

So far, I didn't meet any tauke not able to sell things to non-chinese, many of them able hire Indonesian maid as well who speak only Malay.

Please, I am not trying to say that all Chinese businessman out there hire staff with "chinese speaking" requirement are discriminatory, but in actual fact there are some using this "lopehole" to hire their own race, which is bad.

orchipalar
02-06-2006, 05:18 PM
Err...that's a good reminder that perhaps all this has much to do with NOTHING...otherthan trying to pick a bone from an egg...so to speak.

Ahem...quite surprisingly why the DPM has NOT looked upon the matter from a different angle...err...which would be what's necessary to create more job opportunities for so many of those unemployed graduates...instead.

Err...otherwise by next year n the years thereafter...more colleges n universities would be churning out more n more...unemployed graduates...to the unemployment lines...

n then again...what would be the other existing contributing factors to the growing numbers of unemployment rates...which is NOT restricted to graduates only...

So what would the freaking government be planning to do for those rising numbers of unemployed workforce..or is he...the Deputy Prime Minister even concerned about the real problem at all...?

totoro
02-06-2006, 05:23 PM
Please, I am not trying to say that all Chinese businessman out there hire staff with "chinese speaking" requirement are discriminatory, but in actual fact there are some using this "lopehole" to hire their own race, which is bad.
I think I have mentioned before in this thread that it might also be seen as discriminatory to systematically pick on 1 particular language or race to criticize, when such undesirable practices are widespread irregardless and irrespective of race/language/etc... and it does not even solve the real problem at hand, as Orchi has pointed out.

burntan
02-06-2006, 05:35 PM
Err...that's a good reminder that perhaps all this has much to do with NOTHING...otherthan trying to pick a bone from an egg...so to speak.

Ahem...quite surprisingly why the DPM has NOT look upon the matter from a different angle...err...which would be what's necessary to create more job opportunities for so many of those unemployed graduates...instead.

Err...otherwise by next year n the years thereafter...more colleges n universities would be churning out more n more...unemployed graduates...to the unemployment lines...

n then again...what would be the other existing contributing factors to the growing numbers of unemployment rates...which is NOT restricted to graduates only...

So what would the freaking government be planning to do for those rising numbers of unemployed workforce..or is the DPM even concerned about the real problem at all?

Maybe the Chinese community didn't know or care much about the problem facing by the Malay. Actually what our DPM saying is really speaking on behalf of the majority Malay community. The feeling of disatifactory of being discriminating in the private sector is not a new issue, it is there all this while. So, it is wrong to accuse our DPM have nothing to do, but picking bone from egg.

It is hard to prove that any companies out there are discriminatory againts bumiputra, but if you are a Malay looking for a job, it is not too hard to feel it. So far, they can't complaint to anywhere because no evidences, they just keep the disatisfactory feeling in heart. Now our DPM is brave enough to tell the feeling of majority who have same feeling.

orchipalar
02-06-2006, 05:39 PM
Err...has anyone tried to put themselves in the shoes of the unemployed minority Malaysians...seeking for jobs opportunity before...?

burntan
02-06-2006, 05:39 PM
I think I have mentioned before in this thread that it might also be seen as discriminatory to systematically pick on 1 particular language or race to criticize, when such undesirable practices are widespread irregardless and irrespective of race/language/etc... and it does not even solve the real problem at hand, as Orchi has pointed out.


I don't know what our DPM did will doing any good or not, but voice out the disatisfactory feeling instead of keeping it in heart is a good way to communicate, right? Non-bumi should care about how majority bumi feel as well, right?

gtl
02-06-2006, 05:42 PM
or has anyone being overlook for a job bcs the company needs to meet the 30% bumi quota before?
my opinion, in the work place, BEST PERSON GETS THE JOB - don't care what colour or religion...........

burntan
02-06-2006, 05:46 PM
or has anyone being overlook for a job bcs the company needs to meet the 30% bumi quota before?
my opinion, in the work place, BEST PERSON GETS THE JOB - don't care what colour or religion...........

In normal situation, in a country of more than 65% population are bumi, it is hard to believe a big company hire less than 30% bumi staff does not discriminatory againts bumi. No?

The quota is there is because the problem is there, just like if everybody obey the laws, we don't need police.

whling
02-06-2006, 06:02 PM
How bout

"Bumiputera only"
"Bumiputera preferred"
"Exclusively to bumiputera"
"5% discount to bumiputera"

What a joke.

Jose Mourinho
02-06-2006, 06:09 PM
In normal situation, in a country of more than 65% population are bumi, it is hard to believe a big company hire less than 30% bumi staff does not discriminatory againts bumi. No?

The quota is there is because the problem is there, just like if everybody obey the laws, we don't need police.

Does it mean that all restaurants and retailers must count the number of customers they have and to ensure that they have 65% bumis and if they have not, they must turn away the rest of the customers and go out to the streets to usher in the bumis to make up the 65%? And if these forced-in customers have no cash or credit cards, they will be given food or goods for free?

totoro
02-06-2006, 06:11 PM
I don't know what our DPM did will doing any good or not, but voice out the disatisfactory feeling instead of keeping it in heart is a good way to communicate, right? Non-bumi should care about how majority bumi feel as well, right?
My friend, there is always 2 sides to the coin. :)

totoro
02-06-2006, 06:20 PM
If we really want to be a globalized country, or even glocalized, then we need to embrace change. Even education in Malaysia has shifted to use English in certain areas in light of it's recognition in the global arena. But look here, Mandarin 1st-language speakers worldwide constitude 14.37% of the world population, which is almost 3 times that of English.


The CIA World Factbook provides the following estimates of "first language" speakers for the year 2005 (percentage of world population; CIA's July 2005 estimate for world population was 6.446 billion [9]).

1. Chinese, Mandarin 14.37% (874 million)
2. Hindi 6.02% (366 million)
3. Spanish 5.05% (326 million)
4. English 4.84% (312 million)
5. Bengali 3.4% (207 million)
6. Portuguese 2.75% (167 million)
7. Russian 2.63% (160 million)
8. Japanese 2.06% (125 million)
9. German, Standard 1.64% (100 million)
10. Korean 1.28% (78 million)
11. French 1.27% (77 million)

Source: CIA - The World Factbook -- World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_speaker_data

And when it comes to the Internet, language population is firstly dominated by English (35%) and next Mandarin (12%). Do you see the importance?

Source: http://www.champs-elysees.com/community/article/GLReach.bmp

tupai
02-06-2006, 07:17 PM
or has anyone being overlook for a job bcs the company needs to meet the 30% bumi quota before?
my opinion, in the work place, BEST PERSON GETS THE JOB - don't care what colour or religion...........

I personally know of a company: employs 90% malay staff. Majority are under 30yrs old, all are very committed, hardworking and the monthly MC/absentism is world's standard <3% of workforce.

The worst smart alecks, i was told, are the non-malay. They circumvent SOPs, cheat on work, ponteng on weekends and bitch about being underpaid every other month...So, in my book, this company will employ any one regardless of race colour or creed, as long as he/she is committed, honest and work to put food on the table.

However, having an additional value-added skill, like e.g. speaking Chinese, opens up more opportunity for them to move up the corporate ladder. ENd of the day, it will also depend on which/what sector and what post.

Yang Akan Belajar Hindi lato tupai

kevin23
02-06-2006, 09:52 PM
I myself is chinese but i speak little mandarin.I dont write chinese nor do i know how to read chinese.I regretted not learning chinese as sometimes i feel handicapped since many business transactions deal in mandarin.I know that mandarin is becoming more and more important.But i wonder what will happen if someone is so fluent in mandarin but can hardly speak proper english during interviews?Many of my friends cant speak english because they were chinese educated and they speak mandarin most of the time.They buy the chinese daily everyday and i would have no clue as to wat all those symbols meant.Nowadays,you can find malays and indian studying in chinese schools.This is not uncommon and can only mean one thing,that mandarin is indeed becoming more and more important.Friends,learn mandarin as a second or third language but dont let this turn into another religion thing.

SunwayKid
02-06-2006, 10:44 PM
In normal situation, in a country of more than 65% population are bumi, it is hard to believe a big company hire less than 30% bumi staff does not discriminatory againts bumi. No?........

In theory, you are absolutely right, but it should be 65%, not 30%. If one were to quote all the statistics on discrimination here, depending on from whose perspective, one could get a free invite to Kamunting, courtesy of the gormen or a plantation stay, with compliments from Chang.

There are always two snides to every statistic. Using the same logic, in theory, shouldn't contractors allocated gormen projects be 65% to a particular race. And in theory, MIC would have a very good chance in their appeal (http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/6/2/nation/14418270&sec=nation) if indeed only 65% of scholarships were given to the preferred group. While we are at it, why not rile the women as well. Why are there only 3 female Cabinet Ministers, instead of 16. In theory, that is what the male/female ratio should be.

We (as a nation) would like to believe the PM chose his team based on capability, skills and people whom he can relate and form a cohesive team, for the best interest of the nation, and not on some numbers. And it is equally hard to believe that businesses don't adopt the same strategy.

burntan
03-06-2006, 01:20 AM
Does it mean that all restaurants and retailers must count the number of customers they have and to ensure that they have 65% bumis and if they have not, they must turn away the rest of the customers and go out to the streets to usher in the bumis to make up the 65%? And if these forced-in customers have no cash or credit cards, they will be given food or goods for free?

Go and count the ratio of bumi and non-bumi customer at KFC and McD, then you will know it is magically ~65% bumi customers. Now, my friend that is statistic.

Jose Mourinho
03-06-2006, 07:55 AM
Go and count the ratio of bumi and non-bumi customer at KFC and McD, then you will know it is magically ~65% bumi customers. Now, my friend that is statistic.

Yes. So the rest of the restaurants must close down. What happened to Ah Kow the bak-kut-teh seller in SS14?

simon_tan
03-06-2006, 08:52 AM
A quick check with Star's classified revealed 5+ pages of "Chinese only" positions, 2+ pages of "Indian only" and 1 page of "Malay only".

Whilst I strongly agree that Mandarin is a KEY skill to have and is not a race base exclusion, the listings on Star's classified does tells a different/sad story.

Let's agree on what is really happenning, and start discussing how to make things different. I for one am tempted to fall back on "well they started it" and "if they can do it, why not we?". But I am sure there is a better way.

p.s. I gave up editing out the phone/company details...


ACCOUNTS CLERK - in Jalan Ipoh, Wisma Yoon Cheng (prefer Chinese female) Min RM1000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------ACCOUNTS EXEC at Sunway Bali, Chinese Female, min 3 year
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEGAL FIRM in Penang requires part / full time General Clerk (preferably Chinese female). Interested candidates, kindly call
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEGAL FIRM near Kelana Jaya LRT station urgently req. experienced Conveyancing Clerks (Chinese).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SALES EXECUTIVE for expanding global trading co. To handle customers in Europe, US, Latin & ME. 21-30 years old, Chinese M/F. 2 yr sales exp. Engish. Modern mgmt, good office env. Based indoor in Kepong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACCOUNT EXEC. @ Pudu and Ware house assist@Puchong.Prefer Chinese female
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADMIN ASSITANT in Taipan SJ Chinese female to handle paperworks must be organized willing to learn fresh graduate welcome call
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADMIN ASST D'sara Utama & Puchong with/out exp. PC literate, Chinese female only. gd in computer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOCTOR LOCUM (Chinese) wanted in Pandan Indah on regular basis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
GEN. CLERK & Tel. Operator (female) req. in Pg. Pref. Chinese with exp. & computer literate
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEGAL FIRM @ Cheras Business Centre req. female Chinese General/Legal Clerk with or w'out experience
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
SALES EXE for sole agency of RHB. Basic+High Comm;Sales Activities provided;Chinese preferred.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECHNICIAN / ENGINEER (Computer)Wanted(Chinese Only).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

kevin23
03-06-2006, 09:17 AM
A quick check with Star's classified revealed 5+ pages of "Chinese only" positions, 2+ pages of "Indian only" and 1 page of "Malay only".....

Are you saying all chinese can speak mandarin?

(Admin note - I have removed most of thwe quoted content as it is unnecessary to quote the WHOLE post which is just above this one. )

totoro
03-06-2006, 09:28 AM
Simon, since when did clerks and admins require graduate degrees? ;)

simon_tan
03-06-2006, 09:28 AM
No, I am NOT saying that "All Chinese can speak Mandarin", and I speak from personal experience :-(

In fact, when I took the listing from Star's classified, I deleted out all the postings that said "Mandarin speaking preferred" and just left postings that clearly states "Peference for a particular RACE".

All my post was trying to convey is that this practice of race preference exist, and is quite blatant.

p.s. I am desperately trying to learn Mandarin now. Clearly, as a Chinese we must not loose our identity, and this is not mutually exclusive to my being a Malaysian.

Joe Gomez
03-06-2006, 09:30 AM
Simon, since when did clerks and admins require graduate degrees? ;)I was told that it is so totoro, in some foreign banks .. sori my source cld be wrong .... :confused:

simon_tan
03-06-2006, 09:32 AM
totoro, I must be getting old, and my eyes are not like they use to be.. where did you read "clerks and admins require graduate degrees"..

totoro
03-06-2006, 10:28 AM
totoro, I must be getting old, and my eyes are not like they use to be.. where did you read "clerks and admins require graduate degrees"..
oh sorry, i was just trying to relate that to the DPM's statement on job discrimination being a cause for unemployment of the 28,000 or so unemployable local graduates... :rolleyes:

hercules
03-06-2006, 10:41 PM
so, what do you suggest the other races who can't speak mandarin do for a leaving?!! stick on to tapping rubber trees and slog at the paddy fields?

just curious.....

Then, what do you suggest those who can't speak English or are computer illiterate to look for a job?

Take the initiative to learn those skills!

de_scorpio
03-06-2006, 11:42 PM
Then, what do you suggest those who can't speak English or are computer illiterate to look for a job?

Take the initiative to learn those skills!


Very true!!
My elders always tell me, if u dun possess the skills, go learn until u master it, may it be 1000 times, dun blame others. Certain groups of people are facillated with all the privilege and sponsors. And yet blaming others are discriminating them.

Who is being discriminating? Any one can tell me which GLC is headed by non bumi? Why cant GLC and Government agencies headed by qualified people regardless race? Even some of the GLC, sorry, most of them are doing badly, and yet the government does not open up the chances for others and choose the right person for the right job, regardless of race. He should ask Mr Tony Fernandez to head the Mas. for example.

If the jobs advert says, Tamil speaking needed, Jawi needed, would DPM voice out? Why must he discriminating the mandarin speaking group only?

swee_ann_tweety
04-06-2006, 10:46 AM
have you guys watched Astro the other day on 03rd June 2006 ?
If I am not mistaken, it was the AEC channel or something like that in the morning.
They were having a talk show and there were some Indians in the talk show.
Guess what? These indians with names like Sathis (hopefully I remember correctly), can speak Mandarin and some do other Indian participants in the show.

It shows that in Malaysia, speaking Mandarin is not confined to merely chinese!!!!
Again, have to repeat this statement, "some chinese cannot even speak mandarin"

Sentinel
04-06-2006, 02:47 PM
DPM Najib have put his own big foot in his even bigger mouth. I guess he was either pandering to his 'supporters' or perhaps to divert attention from the 'police brutality / Bloody Sunday' or the IPMC objections appearing on the police website. Smart move dude ! but I guess Malaysians are getting politically smarter by the day, and you only can fool those followers of yours in Pekan!

Remember this Najib, when I was at UM 1979-1982, I had to stay in 45 Jalan 17/3, Petaling Jaya, with 15 other non-Bumiputera undergrads 4-to-a-room in a single-storey bungalow. Campus hostels and residential colleges were not available to us non-Bumi students - even if we could prove we were from near-broke families! My share of rental, water & electricity was RM45.00 a month and my mom only could afford to give to me RM30 per month and I still have to pay for food, transport, varsity fees etc and every scholarship available were always "Hanya Untuk Bumiputera sahaja".

In campus, we could see the Petronas / MISC / Bank Bumi / Sime Darby / Guthrie scholars splurging their RM360 per month on new Honda CB100 and having a full breakfast spread of teh tarek, roti telor, 2 half-boiled eggs and even a packet of 6-stick Benson & Hedges or Dunhill yah -- while my friends and I had sit thru lectures and tutorials without breakfast. Am I angry? Of course I am. Thirty-six full years of affirmative NEP policy and you still got the chic to come and tell me about racial discrimination? Go to hell..... :mad:

kevin23
04-06-2006, 03:23 PM
Well said sentinel.But do toe the line.Later kena banana =)

Diana
04-06-2006, 03:50 PM
If the jobs advert says, Tamil speaking needed, Jawi needed, would DPM voice out? Why must he discriminating the mandarin speaking group only?

If someone had said something like this, I am sure this thread won't even exist. After reading d replies awhile it seems tht exact racism everyone's trying to combat is actually seeping in2 these posts. I am sure if he had said any other language was discriminatory, there wouldn't b a peep out of anyone.

"Becoming the monster so the monster won't break u"? Seems like as discriminate and racist they are, we're no better. (yes iam chinese too).
:(

wsp
04-06-2006, 05:30 PM
~~~~~ In campus, we could see the Petronas / MISC / Bank Bumi / Sime Darby / Guthrie scholars splurging their RM360 per month on new Honda CB100 and having a full breakfast spread of teh tarek, roti telor, 2 half-boiled eggs and even a packet of 6-stick Benson & Hedges or Dunhill yah -- while my friends and I had sit thru lectures and tutorials without breakfast. Am I angry? Of course I am. Thirty-six full years of affirmative NEP policy and you still got the chic to come and tell me about racial discrimination? Go to hell..... :mad:

and also, those who got the govt scholarships for their MBA to Japan, UK and US etc after a few years (less than 5 years) of working experience actually manage to bring their wife and kids (below 7yrs old) to join them in overseas and save some handsome sum of monies from the scholarship fees as 'the capital of investment' after return back home. have seen a few of cases... true! do they need to repay or wait till their names are published in newspapers? it's pathetic.

swee_ann_tweety
04-06-2006, 05:46 PM
Sentinel, I really feel sorry for what you had faced during your studies in UM.

Hey, but be angry NO MORE! :) I am sure that experience really toughen and strengthen you and made you into what you are today!

hmckl
04-06-2006, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE=swee_ann_tweety]Sentinel, I really feel sorry for what you had faced during your studies in UM. .............
QUOTE]

I suppose that may be one of the reason Chinese company are more likely to take in Cinese employers ..... government will not help you, then we have to help our 'own' people. I have known a few of my taukeh friends who will only interview Chinese candidates for jobs. It is a vicious cycle, so majority of Malays have to look for a lowly paid jobs in government :(
Able to speak Mandarin or not does not solve the 'current practices' as long as we have some bitter Chinese remembering the times government neglecting them :(

cskok8
04-06-2006, 08:54 PM
WANTED, NEUROSURGEON to operate on DPM of developing country with one developed state.

Any age
Any sex
Any race
Any/No religion
Able to speak (any language will do)
No particular qualifications needed
No particular experience needed

How does not sound? With this kind of ad the pool of applicants will be limitless, therefore the potential employer will not lose out on the BEST candidate out there.

orchipalar
04-06-2006, 09:05 PM
Err...should the DPM wanted to run the interviews by himself...n it be conducted for ONE day only...

Ahem...even the Olympic size stadium would NOT be large enough to hold the event...to accommodate all the applicants. :p

swee_ann_tweety
04-06-2006, 09:07 PM
WANTED, NEUROSURGEON to operate on DPM of developing country with one developed state.

Any age
Any sex
Any race
Any/No religion
Able to speak (any language will do)
No particular qualifications needed
No particular experience needed

How does not sound? With this kind of ad the pool of applicants will be limitless, therefore the potential employer will not lose out on the BEST candidate out there.
That's a very interesting advertisement you had there I must admit ! :)
BUT I think experience is important!!! We don't want the patient to sleep forever do we ?

kwchang
05-06-2006, 12:16 AM
I see the same stuff repeated ad nauseum.
We know what the DPM meant and we know what the job adverts really wanted besides the real need for specific language skills.
When we beat around the bush like this, the racial issues get whacked.

Let us face it, there are a lot of prejudices and suspicions in the real world. It will not get solved by telling the people to stop doing certain things.

If I were to say that we stop getting racial in this thread, then the discussion actually runs out of steam. Effectively the debate dies. So, why is there a need to keep this going? Is this a good time to stop?

I'll see how it develops. If we can still wring out some good discussion sans the racial bits. If there isn't any thing new to say, then please just let it go.

burntan
05-06-2006, 12:44 PM
If you read thru all the posts here in this thread then you will clearly see that (unless you are fully blinded by racist mind) how Malay being racial discriminate by majority Chinese here. This is the fact and it reflect clearly in the job market where majority companies own by Chinese as well.

Imagine this, a Malay boy born in Kuala Lumpur, never enjoy anything from the NEP (you know that, there isn't much from NEP for normal, not connected public), graduate from SPM and trying to looking for a "clerk" job in private sector majority own by Chinese. However, most of the job are required "chinese speaking" people only for the reasons like "the boss speak only mandarin", "the HR manager having hard time in local University before due to NEP", "the HR manager read only Chinese news paper", "the boss think that govt will help bumiputra to find a job, so better reserve the job to others"....etc

What do you think?

hercules
05-06-2006, 07:23 PM
If you read thru all the posts here in this thread then you will clearly see that (unless you are fully blinded by racist mind) how Malay being racial discriminate by majority Chinese here. This is the fact and it reflect clearly in the job market where majority companies own by Chinese as well.

Imagine this, a Malay boy born in Kuala Lumpur, never enjoy anything from the NEP (you know that, there isn't much from NEP for normal, not connected public), graduate from SPM and trying to looking for a "clerk" job in private sector majority own by Chinese. However, most of the job are required "chinese speaking" people only for the reasons like "the boss speak only mandarin", "the HR manager having hard time in local University before due to NEP", "the HR manager read only Chinese news paper", "the boss think that govt will help bumiputra to find a job, so better reserve the job to others"....etc

What do you think?

He then can go for the public sector and try, our government has already created nearly 1 million jobs what.Right?

The Disneyland theme park is one of the solutions!!! HA HA

AllUrban
05-06-2006, 07:31 PM
If you read thru all the posts here in this thread then you will clearly see ................?you will see exactly what you want to see....prejudice, justice, discrimination, racism...and no matter who you are, what you see will clearly reflect your own closely held beliefs


What do you think?I think that when you upset the apple cart...........you can expect the apples to roll around and people will lose their footing and knock other people over.....

Certain people are doing their best to use and abuse the system...and they feel that they are justified in doing so....because they believe that the system works against them...

Cheers, m

kwchang
05-06-2006, 10:05 PM
As i had mentioned in my post (#148), burntan is going into racialism ... looks like this topic isn't going to get anywhere without the race issue. So it is being closed. Topic closed.