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sirgalahad2010
21-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Quote from the Spore Straits Times today: "In a landmark legal move, Malaysia's recording industry filed lawsuits against shopping malls renting premises to vendors of pirated wares".

"The Recording Industry Association of Malaysia (RIM) has also filed an unprecedented lawsuit against the Berjaya Megamall shopping complex in Kuantan, Pahang for allegedly renting out its premises to VCD pirates.....RIM would be filing suits against three shopping centres in Johor Bahru, two in Penang and one in Malacca".

And about time too! Are shopping malls in KL the next to be targetted?

I can't understand the ambivalent attitude of most Msians towards pirated music, movies and software. Here we moan and whine about crime in our towns and cities and its impact on our personal safety, but we don't appear to care two hoots about condoning theft of intellectual property - which is what purchasing this pirated stuff is all about - and which is just as much a crime. Maybe it's because its victims are either "faceless" or rich and powerful artistes and MNCs who can afford to absorb the losses caused by pirating their products. In any case, its an absolutely s****y attitude and reveals double standards for all to see.

layman
21-04-2006, 02:02 PM
Quote from the Spore Straits Times today: "In a landmark legal move, Malaysia's recording industry filed lawsuits against shopping malls renting premises to vendors of pirated wares".

"The Recording Industry Association of Malaysia (RIM) has also filed an unprecedented lawsuit against the Berjaya Megamall shopping complex in Kuantan, Pahang for allegedly renting out its premises to VCD pirates.....RIM would be filing suits against three shopping centres in Johor Bahru, two in Penang and one in Malacca".

And about time too! Are shopping malls in KL the next to be targetted?

I can't understand the ambivalent attitude of most Msians towards pirated music, movies and software. Here we moan and whine about crime in our towns and cities and its impact on our personal safety, but we don't appear to care two hoots about condoning theft of intellectual property - which is what purchasing this pirated stuff is all about - and which is just as much a crime. Maybe it's because its victims are either "faceless" or rich and powerful artistes and MNCs who can afford to absorb the losses caused by pirating their products. In any case, its an absolutely s****y attitude and reveals double standards for all to see.

what do u think is the best buy or the favourite item for tourists from europe in asia???

pirated cd's books etc which is a fraction of the legal patented products in their home countries

why do u think people in developing countires prefer pirated products??

sing GDP per capital is nearly 3-4 x of KL
for a cd at 30 ringgit is a lot of money for a 3rd world country compared to the rich singaporeans -15sing$ is a small outlay for a cd

i am not preaching for 1 second that infringement of intellectual property rights is not a crime but thats the state of affairs in 3rd world country

anyway white collar crime has always been'tolerated' as the victims are without exceprtion 'rich'

again its about $ and cents and livelihood in a developing country

burntan
21-04-2006, 02:08 PM
what do u think is the best buy or the favourite item for tourists from europe in asia???

pirated cd's books etc which is a fraction of the legal patented products in their home countries

why do u think people in developing countires prefer pirated products??

sing GDP per capital is nearly 3-4 x of KL
for a cd at 30 ringgit is a lot of money for a 3rd world country compared to the rich singaporeans -15sing$ is a small outlay for a cd

i am not preaching for 1 second that infringement of intellectual property rights is not a crime but thats the state of affairs in 3rd world country

anyway white collar crime has always been'tolerated' as the victims are without exceprtion 'rich'

again its about $ and cents and livelihood in a developing country

Sound like poverty is a good reason to rob to me.

Timo
21-04-2006, 02:12 PM
I can't understand the ambivalent attitude of most Msians towards pirated music, movies and software. Here we moan and whine about crime in our towns and cities and its impact on our personal safety, but we don't appear to care two hoots about condoning theft of intellectual property


I am one of those people who does not really mind the existence of pirated music, movies etc. Let me help you understand where I am coming from.

I am not in 100% agreement with the concept of intellectual property, as defined within the context of law. The concept of intellectual property is still very young, and therefore the laws that govern its definition and its proper usage is still far from mature. I can understand the concept of 'that's my idea, or that's your idea', but things like copyrights, patents, etc, especially within an international context are still foreign to me.

In addition, what makes something your idea, or my idea? No human is totally independent from everyone else, any idea (s)he generates is not his/her alone - the idea one person generates is a combination of efforts of a whole range of people, yet the profit only goes to one person/one party.

However, the biggest reason I don't necessarily buy 'original' games and music and stuff is because they are overpriced. If vcd sellers can earn chunks of money selling a cd for rm5, surely the musicians and so on can as well. In the music/movie business, somehow it has become accepted that musicians, actors and worst of all, all the execs in between, DESERVE to earn millions of dollars.

I read somewhere ages ago that a cd that for a cd that sells for 20 pounds, only about 2-3 pounds go back to the artist. The rest gets gobbled up by god knows who. And yet those 2-3 pounds per cd is enough to fuel many a drug fuelled sex crazed binge drinking nights. And this happens all because we pay them excessively.

And don't get me started on Microsoft.

So, in the end, I am actually glad that these pirates exist to bring some real, albeit illegal, competition to the economic scene.

layman
21-04-2006, 02:13 PM
Sound like poverty is a good reason to rob to me.

then perhaps we should start begging

aurora97
21-04-2006, 02:21 PM
interestingly during a Sunday service (Easter Sunday)-in a church located somewhere in Sunway Lagoon, a whole congression was held up by 4 tugs who came in with Parangs.

I am feeling poor now, i think i should go around robbing churches, mosques and temples.

penangkia
21-04-2006, 03:51 PM
In general, human responses to opportunities are the same if not controlled by laws, regulations and occasional cultures and traditions...whether in developed or developing countries.

If you and your family can watch King Kong for RM8 instead of RM120, and the quality of both is almost identical, I am cock sure majority will choose the former unless he is a Bill Gates.

I wiil chop off my dick if majority Singaporeans will not buy imitation DVDs if they are sold along Orchard Rd. as freely as there are sold here.
Same for the hypocrite copywrite/intellectual property defending gweilos. Go to petaling street and see who are the ones buying "rolexes, cartiers etc. or go to any bargain street in Asia...more often then not, gweilo bargain hunters outnumber locals.

So, bottom is, don't blame the masses for buying imitations, they are only being human. Want to blame....blame the authorities who allow these things to be sold openly in the first place.

Btw, the masses don't consider this robbbing....this is willing buyer willing seller basis.

No so long ago, some people use the opium currency in exchange for tea, silk, chinawares etc and claimed it was perfectly and morally OK...and even went to war to protect their freedom to trade in this currency :rolleyes:

bslee
21-04-2006, 04:05 PM
Ultimately, if they succeed, we all will be at the mercy of unfair and controlled price. They (local authorised distributors & agents) will be laughing all the way to the bank. Yes, prices are already outrageous for local or imported audio cd, dvds and computer software. There's hardly any move to lower the prices, instead its steadily inflating and middle or lower income group having to cough out more.
Calling for a nationwide boycott is futile and consumers don't readily bother, listen or act. Can only mumble, grumble, banter and rant, in the end, the issue dies a natural death. That's typical bolehland culture! Happened before, happening now and in future! What else is new?.. :(

burntan
21-04-2006, 04:32 PM
then perhaps we should start begging

Why not earn it instead of robbing or begging?

layman
21-04-2006, 04:39 PM
Why not earn it instead of robbing or begging?


u mean singaporean wages in malaysia

??

perhaps u have an extra generous boss

burntan
21-04-2006, 05:10 PM
u mean singaporean wages in malaysia

??

perhaps u have an extra generous boss

Do we really need to have singaporean wages to buy a RM40 original CD? While we are affortable to buy a overpriced Proton?

layman
21-04-2006, 05:17 PM
Do we really need to have singaporean wages to buy a RM40 original CD? While we are affortable to buy a overpriced Proton?


cars -do we have a choice?

i am referring to the general malaysian population with a GDP /capital of barely 5000US $ compared to sing of 30000US

its not about me !!!

this is getting personal

SunwayKid
21-04-2006, 05:19 PM
I am normally open-minded and don’t like to complain much, but I can no longer remain silent when they start to sue complex owners for renting out their premises to my favourite stores. RIM’s basic complaint is that if people buy pirated stuff, they are not going to buy original EXPENSIVE CDs. The counter argument is why CDs are priced so expensive when the cost of producing is so low that the pirates can continue to support the TRIADS with the miserable amount that they charged for the merchandise. The counter counter argument is that who cares if no one buys the original stuff.

I was a proponent of the last point of view. I don’t have much sympathy for artistes who are already quite wealthy and associations like RIM who try to milk some of that wealth from people like you and me. I do have sympathy for me, having to pay astronomical amount to see a movie that is so heavily butchered that with one draw of the sword and without inflicting any blood, the villain is already dead on the ground (hello, remember Kill Bill). Why should I suffer? Haven’t I been through enough lately, having to pay for fuel increases, shiit charges, drinking ammonia-flavoured water and much much more?

And please don’t bring in nationalities. As Penangkia has so eloquently debated, including sacrificing certain parts of his anatomy if he is proven wrong, everywhere you go, you will see who the real customers are. From first world to third world, it is a world wide trade, with no borders. And who are the biggest P2P downloaders on earth; and I am not sacrificing my anatomy if you get that right!

You may than argue on ethics. The problem with ethics is that some things are only wrong most of the time. If I had needed to buy that Microsoft Office copy so that my child can be computer literate, for example, I would have felt OK about it. Otherwise, my child would be computer dumb as there is no way I can pay for that RM2000 software. In theory, stealing is wrong. In theory. In theory, democracy works. And then they continue to let Semi Value, APidah, Krisman and co to continue in the XXL cabinet and we realize then that democracy is a failure. Lots of things work “in theory” as I always say.

All of which is my way of explaining that I do like to do my shopping in air-conditioned comfort and not the humid,sweaty, night markets which are managed by the local councils which i don't believe RIM will ever sue.

burntan
21-04-2006, 05:25 PM
cars -do we have a choice?

i am referring to the general malaysian population with a GDP /capital of barely 5000US $ compared to sing of 30000US

its not about me !!!

this is getting personal

CD -do we have a choice?

Is that something necessary for living? I am not affortable for a ferrari as well while many american can, that's doesn't give me any excuse to rob one isn't it?

layman
21-04-2006, 05:29 PM
CD -do we have a choice?

Is that something necessary for living? I am not affortable for a ferrari as well while many american can, that's doesn't give me any excuse to rob one isn't it?

well the forummers has rebutted ur claims fof pirating as a form of robbery

do u not read be4 passing outrageous remarks and ur lofty surreal moral value for the consumption of forummers

most are of the opinion piracy is a fact of life in REAL LIFE.MAYBE U LIVED IN THE REALM OF dreamland -fantasyland

this is not utopialand-mr burn

kwchang
21-04-2006, 05:44 PM
Let us not find lame reasons to use pirated software. For example, if Microsoft Office is expensive, there is the free and legal Open source versions available. They may not be MS Office but in computer software, the usage is not very different.

I agree that original music and video CDs are expensive and the imported ones are ridiculously priced. So I buy the legal ones made locally for my own and my kid's consumption. I would be limited to 2 pieces of CD per month but I still buy originals.

If we felt the legal ones are expensive, we either buy less or not buy at all and listen to the radio. Let the music publishers feel the pinch and they should reduce prices.

We should not fight the over-priced original stuff by supporting illegal operators.

burntan
21-04-2006, 05:45 PM
Some may argue that original CD and DVD are overpriced to a an unreasonable level due to the fact that pirated CD/DVD seller can still earn so much by selling cheap.

Actually the cost of a CD or DVD isn't really that much, in a mass production one CD could cost less than RM0.50 to produce, including printing and packing, total cost less than RM2, that's why pirated VCD seller can sell RM5 per movie and still make profit. I can also burn a copy of MS Office CD to a RM0.60 CD-R myself, why pay close to RM1,000 for a copy of original software?

However, if you melt a Pentium 4 processor back to plastic and silicon, how much will that worth? If you sell your collection of Encyclopedia as old newspaper how much will you get? Sometime we can't judge a product price by it material cost.

bslee
21-04-2006, 05:45 PM
I could remember the arrogance and high handedness of RIM or whoever..
1. Years ago, they insisted all public places, malls, complexes to pay royalties if they continued to play music over public PA system. Most complied and stopped playing music over PA, and its stayed.
2. RIM fought back aggressively over the Minister's proposal to reduce or have ceiling price for music cd, vcd and dvd. delay, delay, squashed!
3. Local produced cd's are reported to be inferior to USA or Euro albums, arrogantly, same price as imported version. The quality, packaging and etc is not at par for the asking price. go figure!.
If anyone thinks the distributors or RIM are angels to benefit or for the rakyat?..forget it, probably in the business to rob us further in the long run!..Phueey!..
I won't argue on anti-piracy nor moral aspect of it but I strongly feel their business practices and ethics are questionable. :rolleyes:

layman
21-04-2006, 05:53 PM
Some may argue that original CD and DVD are overpriced to a an unreasonable level due to the fact that pirated CD/DVD seller can still earn so much by selling cheap.

Actually the cost of a CD or DVD isn't really that much, in a mass production one CD could cost less than RM0.50 to produce, including printing and packing, total cost less than RM2, that's why pirated VCD seller can sell RM5 per movie and still make profit. I can also burn a copy of MS Office CD to a RM0.60 CD-R myself, why pay close to RM1,000 for a copy of original software?

However, if you melt a Pentium 4 processor back to plastic and silicon, how much will that worth? If you sell your collection of Encyclopedia as old newspaper how much will you get? Sometime we can't judge a product price by it material cost.


is this newsworthy?

everyone knows the physical materials use in the production of disc cards drugs etc are cheap

what one is paying is the INTELLECTUAL effort or money expended in the research.the products on reaching the shelf of most retailers can be several hundred percent higher than the original price

no one is condoning this violation of patented rights but like they say -this is the real world

sirgalahad2010
21-04-2006, 05:54 PM
kwchang - u are so right!

A crime is a crime any which way u look at it. Let's not get side-tracked with cockamamie arguments about purchasing power and income disparities. You cannot justify instant gratification because it is cheaper to buy a pirated product than save up (deferred gratification) for the real stuff.

I would, for example, be very hesitant to invest in a Msian software start-up company if it's cutting-edge product is going to be pirated the moment its commercially available.

And why would Microsoft, Apple or the other IT majors make significant investments (and create good jobs) in Msia if their products are going to be pirated here and distributed internationally?

Spore makes a big issue of respecting IP (intellectual property) rights and enforces the relevant laws stringently. The result - every IT major has its regional office there.

I think that Msians generally are deluding themselves if they believe that the ready availability of pirated music, movies and software is in the long-term good of the country. Maybe its all about instant gratification, after all.

burntan
21-04-2006, 05:57 PM
well the forummers has rebutted ur claims fof pirating as a form of robbery

do u not read be4 passing outrageous remarks and ur lofty surreal moral value for the consumption of forummers

most are of the opinion piracy is a fact of life in REAL LIFE.MAYBE U LIVED IN THE REALM OF dreamland -fantasyland

this is not utopialand-mr burn

Why is it selling pirated product not a form of robbery? What is "pirated" mean?

I know in this REAL world everyday got woman being rape and kill as well..... and I sure they have plenty of excuses to do so as well, should we consider legalise raping and killing?

layman
21-04-2006, 06:13 PM
kwchang - u are so right!

A crime is a crime any which way u look at it. Let's not get side-tracked with cockamamie arguments about purchasing power and income disparities. You cannot justify instant gratification because it is cheaper to buy a pirated product than save up (deferred gratification) for the real stuff.

I would, for example, be very hesitant to invest in a Msian software start-up company if it's cutting-edge product is going to be pirated the moment its commercially available.

And why would Microsoft, Apple or the other IT majors make significant investments (and create good jobs) in Msia if their products are going to be pirated here and distributed internationally?

Spore makes a big issue of respecting IP (intellectual property) rights and enforces the relevant laws stringently. The result - every IT major has its regional office there.

I think that Msians generally are deluding themselves if they believe that the ready availability of pirated music, movies and software is in the long-term good of the country. Maybe its all about instant gratification, after all.

u reckon?

are u telling the world that generic drugs are not allowed for violating the patents of ABC company?

well what dont u communicate this message to the africans dying in thousands from HIV becos ABC has the excluisve rights to XYZ medications
and to hell with passion and human dignity -afterall we need to fill our coffers to the brim

singapore is a developed country-of course u play to a set of internationally accepted rules.u dont often find pirated ABC in developed countires

investment-well china is one of the worst violators of intellectual property in the world and yet they attracted the highest FDI in the last 5 years

if theres money to be made who cares about any possible infringement of intelliigentsia community?

welcome to the real world mate-this is malayisa not singapore

layman
21-04-2006, 06:16 PM
Why is it selling pirated product not a form of robbery? What is "pirated" mean?

I know in this REAL world everyday got woman being rape and kill as well..... and I sure they have plenty of excuses to do so as well, should we consider legalise raping and killing?


are u equating the physical infringement in the same manner to an infringemnet of property rights??

u do live in utopia land afterall!!!

bslee
21-04-2006, 06:17 PM
investment-well china is one of the worst violators of intellectual property in the world and yet they attracted the highest FDI in the last 5 years
if theres money to be made who cares about any possible infringement of intelliigentsia community?
welcome to the real world mate-this is malayisa not singapore

Singapore = No place to hide
Malaysia = A few more places to hide..boleh mah!..
China = Everywhere can find hole to hide!..
:D :D

burntan
21-04-2006, 06:22 PM
are u equating the physical infringement in the same manner to an infringemnet of property rights??

u do live in utopia land afterall!!!

What's the different? It is still raping and robbing.

GreyShadow
21-04-2006, 06:24 PM
Local DVDs are heavily censored and expensive, pasar malam one is not
I guess that's one of the main reason why ppl support pirated dvds

layman
21-04-2006, 06:25 PM
What's the different? It is still raping and robbing.


physical violence= stealing intelligence??

well u tell me the difference and let the court of law tell u the difference!!!

layman
21-04-2006, 06:42 PM
let me relate a real life situation to illustrate the futility in curtailing or banishing pirated products from the streets in developing countries

i was in siem reap several weeks ago

the most popular item on sale in the street vendors arsenal of goods was pirated copies of travellogue produced by one of the most profitable companies in the world.

who are the buyers???
caucasians from the west with one of the most stringent copyrights law in the world

who are the sellers
maimed and displaced peasants and kids from the ravages of the genocidal war in cambodia

price-a fraction of the original

conclusion-win-win
provides money to the poor and destitute and cheap books for the travellers

mr sirg
the stage of econnomic developement or progress in any country is an indicator of their willingness to comply with harsh rules thrust into them by the powerful lobbies in the developed world-polarisation comes with globalisation

money is not unimportant in the quest for striking a balnce between the grey uncharted area of infringing or not violating someone's brainy rights

PJS
21-04-2006, 07:11 PM
I've stated my stand in a previous thread discussing about pirated software/videos - I don't support the pirates, period! My reason to support originals is mostly for the IP, but also, I've vowed nvr to do business with those cheating, stealing, lowlife pirates, ever!

Sometimes, u know, it is very tempting when eating out when a pirate DVD seller come and approach u with the latest title which u are trying to catch in the cinemas but never could find the time? It is so convenient just to pick up the latest movie for RM8-10 and go home to watch, isn't it?

But I'm sure most of us who buy(or used to buy) pirate copies got burned by those unscrupulous vendors, don't we? They say it is clear, hifi copy and when u go home the sound is blurry, or the disc is unreadable, and if it works, then u may find someone's shadow in the midst of some scene, don't you?

Well, why r so many people still buying from these unethical vendors who lie and cheat to their direct customers on one hand, while sucking the revenues off other people's work on the other hand? :mad: :mad:

You won't miss anything even if u don't watch those pirated DVDs, there are better ways to spend quality time than stay glued to the TV! Saves u 100% of the money!

burntan
21-04-2006, 09:44 PM
let me relate a real life situation to illustrate the futility in curtailing or banishing pirated products from the streets in developing countries

i was in siem reap several weeks ago

the most popular item on sale in the street vendors arsenal of goods was pirated copies of travellogue produced by one of the most profitable companies in the world.

who are the buyers???
caucasians from the west with one of the most stringent copyrights law in the world

who are the sellers
maimed and displaced peasants and kids from the ravages of the genocidal war in cambodia

price-a fraction of the original

conclusion-win-win
provides money to the poor and destitute and cheap books for the travellers

mr sirg
the stage of econnomic developement or progress in any country is an indicator of their willingness to comply with harsh rules thrust into them by the powerful lobbies in the developed world-polarisation comes with globalisation

money is not unimportant in the quest for striking a balnce between the grey uncharted area of infringing or not violating someone's brainy rights

Actually write so long but what is the point? Still the poor have the reason to steal? or even the rich man steal too will make it more reasonable to steal?

If you think that intellecture properties are as no value then why you buy the pirated one? Not that you don't value those product, just that when you can steal and get out of it, you choose to take the advantage.

I know it is hard for you to accept that you are in fact a thief, but this is the real world, not utopialand, people are no angel.

burntan
21-04-2006, 09:47 PM
I've stated my stand in a previous thread discussing about pirated software/videos - I don't support the pirates, period! My reason to support originals is mostly for the IP, but also, I've vowed nvr to do business with those cheating, stealing, lowlife pirates, ever!

Sometimes, u know, it is very tempting when eating out when a pirate DVD seller come and approach u with the latest title which u are trying to catch in the cinemas but never could find the time? It is so convenient just to pick up the latest movie for RM8-10 and go home to watch, isn't it?

But I'm sure most of us who buy(or used to buy) pirate copies got burned by those unscrupulous vendors, don't we? They say it is clear, hifi copy and when u go home the sound is blurry, or the disc is unreadable, and if it works, then u may find someone's shadow in the midst of some scene, don't you?

Well, why r so many people still buying from these unethical vendors who lie and cheat to their direct customers on one hand, while sucking the revenues off other people's work on the other hand? :mad: :mad:

You won't miss anything even if u don't watch those pirated DVDs, there are better ways to spend quality time than stay glued to the TV! Saves u 100% of the money!

I know a place that selling pirate DVD which is 100% copy from original, 100% guarantee clear and no censor at all. If your reason to stop buying pirated DVD is just because of their quality, would you like to know this place?

kwchang
22-04-2006, 12:07 AM
Let me make on thing clear.
I hope some of you are not the types to wait till the cows come home.

If you continue to argue to the piracy-supporters, you are just whacking the topics till the cows come home and no one will be declared the winner. No one will convert the other. Zero sum. A complete waste of time.

State your point and thank you. It is your point. The ones who think otherwise can say their point and that's it. No need to up the other on your arguements. This is not a poker game. Let the readers decide.

kwchang
22-04-2006, 12:16 AM
...are u telling the world that generic drugs are not allowed for violating the patents of ABC company...
A little bit of misunderstanding here. Generic drugs are not violations of copyrights.

In the pharmaceutical world, there is a copyright law which allows for the original manufacturer and patent holder to the rights of the patent for a fixed number of years. It may be 50 years (I don't know for sure, so look it up if you are interested) - this is to allow them to recoup the huge amounts of money spent on the research and stringent drug trials before the drug is allowed to be marketed.

After that period, the patents are removed and other drug manufacturers are allowed to make and sell the drug. Hence generics flood the market with cheaper (but not necessarily better) copies of the original drug. The doctor and the patient may choose to use the cheaper generic or the more expensive original drug. I can tell you, for a better cure rate, most doctors would prescribe the original drug if the patient can afford it.

PJS
22-04-2006, 12:24 AM
I know a place that selling pirate DVD which is 100% copy from original, 100% guarantee clear and no censor at all. If your reason to stop buying pirated DVD is just because of their quality, would you like to know this place?

No, thanks! I said it before, I'm not going to feed the pirates! Just like I wouldn't go to thieves market to buy a pair of stolen shoes, or buy a piece of scrap metal from a thieve who stole it from a TNB substation. Doing so will just encourage the thieves to commit more crime, b4 u know it, u or one of your family members will fall victim to these unscrupulous criminals.

kwchang
22-04-2006, 12:31 AM
So why are original drugs so expensive? You start a drug company tomorrow and employ scientists, biochemists and pharmacists to find the element in some jungle plant that cures cancer, for example. Do you think it can be done in a few days? You may get a breakthrough after a year if you are lucky. Who is paying for all this work?

After that you need a well equiped lab to analyse and extract and refine the biochemical that later becomes the active ingredient for the wonder drug. With this set up, you will need to employ scientists, biochemists, pharmacists and the lot. Not to mention lab technicians as well as to pay for other services such as disposal of dangerous chemicals and hazardous biologicals (you can't wash a lot of stuff down the drain you know). Have you forgotten the lab equipment, they aren't like the stuff you find in secondary school labs my friend. These are top of the range stuff and each of them cost more than the Proton you drive to work. Who pays for all these investments and staff salaries?

After all that, you MUST test the drug and there are very strict regulations on how tests must be done before the drug can be manufactured for sale. You will need to pay for statisticians. What about the cost of the drug trials? Lab animals like special mice need to be used (not the types that you catch from the backlanes). If the tests fail, then it is back to the drawing board again, all those years of research goes down the drain.

At the end of it, you produce your drug in the form of billionns of pellets. Would you still want to sell it for 10 sen a pill? Think of all the money that you borrowed to fund your company that you set up maybe ten years ago to reach this end? Who had been paying for all those equipment and all those people who worked for you?

expat1609
22-04-2006, 01:36 AM
I know a place that selling pirate DVD which is 100% copy from original, 100% guarantee clear and no censor at all. If your reason to stop buying pirated DVD is just because of their quality, would you like to know this place?

and do you know the reason how they can do it ??
do you know the reason how they can sell for 5 RM or DVD for 8 RM ??
and do you know why westerners are the best customers for pirated dvd's ??

burntan
22-04-2006, 07:37 AM
and do you know the reason how they can do it ??
do you know the reason how they can sell for 5 RM or DVD for 8 RM ??
and do you know why westerners are the best customers for pirated dvd's ??

Because they bought a original copy and duplicate?
Because the cost of production is very low?
Because the westerners can't buy it from their home land?

burntan
22-04-2006, 07:43 AM
No, thanks! I said it before, I'm not going to feed the pirates! Just like I wouldn't go to thieves market to buy a pair of stolen shoes, or buy a piece of scrap metal from a thieve who stole it from a TNB substation. Doing so will just encourage the thieves to commit more crime, b4 u know it, u or one of your family members will fall victim to these unscrupulous criminals.

You are so Right! If those merchant not buying from thieves then my metal drain cover outside the house no need to replace twice :mad:

sirgalahad2010
22-04-2006, 12:34 PM
Let's not even go into the knock-offs of branded designer goods - the likes of LV, Chanel, Dior, Prada etc, or even "copy watches" - that Msians seem to like so much, seeing as how readily available they are.

Is this not as much a crime as purchasing pirated movies, music or software?

I was just reading a report about how Spore is to be Asia's first digital content exchange. It said that, thanks to Spore's tough stance against intellectual property copycats, foreign film makers have agreed to let a Spore company (1-Net Singapore) manage the global distribution of their digital content.

It quoted Mark Ford, chief executive of Ford Studios, as saying that Spore is ideal as a digital content hub due to its " strong IP regime for content owners where IP protection is critical".

In the long run, Msia is shooting itself in the foot by condoning the ready availability of fake designer goods and pirated software, movies and music. I don't see Microsoft or Apple or Sun or Cisco making major investments in Msia, whereas they all have a substantial presence in Spore - a "little red dot" with a population of less than 5 million.

PJS
22-04-2006, 07:19 PM
That's right!

And some Malaysians are so proud of the availability of fake designer goods at Petaling Street (a.k.a. PS Boutique) that this fact is mentioned in many tourism info websites and/or brochures (I can't recall exactly if there were official website or printed brochures that mentioned it).

What a shame! :mad:

expat1609
22-04-2006, 11:34 PM
Because they bought a original copy and duplicate?
Because the cost of production is very low?
Because the westerners can't buy it from their home land?

almost:

because the "pirated" cd's come from the same factories and same machines as the originals ???
so because of the first it would be net (tax-free) profit ???
because i have seen matsallehs buying a dvd of "bruce allmighty" 1 year after they could see it in cinemas, for 24.90 AND THAT WERE EUROS not RM !!!

burntan
23-04-2006, 07:36 AM
almost:

because the "pirated" cd's come from the same factories and same machines as the originals ???
so because of the first it would be net (tax-free) profit ???
because i have seen matsallehs buying a dvd of "bruce allmighty" 1 year after they could see it in cinemas, for 24.90 AND THAT WERE EUROS not RM !!!

Do you personally feel that original DVD movies are overpriced, I mean do consider the cost of production of the movies and the risk of the investment?

VeeJay
23-04-2006, 10:32 AM
My take is…

Pirated CD selling should STOP. No selling no buying…it wont work the other way around….it is not possible to ask people to stop buying, as long as its available people would still continue to buy due to its pricing.

CD/DVD price should be LOWERED. For example in US it only cost about USD30, so its affordable. Thus locally it should be in the same range.

Enforcement should go full swing to eliminate piracy. People should be empowered to report and action should be taken immediately. Maybe certain token could be provisioned to whistle blowers.

The quality of locally produced CD/DVD should be maintained.

Computer CD (programs) for individual use should also be reduced. Only authorize resellers should be able to sell it with accountability trusted on them.

expat1609
23-04-2006, 10:42 AM
Do you personally feel that original DVD movies are overpriced, I mean do consider the cost of production of the movies and the risk of the investment?

guess i can not judge on the pricing, as they are still very cheap for me over here, but the 20 to 25 euro ( ~ 90 - 115 RM :eek: ), that is ridiculous.
nobody needs to tell me those dvd's are not made in china, taiwan, malaysia ...so what are the production costs for them, same, aren't they??

expat1609
23-04-2006, 10:49 AM
Do you personally feel that original DVD movies are overpriced, I mean do consider the cost of production of the movies and the risk of the investment?

the risk of production are in hollywood, if talking bout production of dvd's one cannot consider price of cd+duplicating, as buying the coppyright is the big part of the real costs.
about the artists i am not that worried as some of the forumers.
just think they go to one tv-show, say hello, yes , no , thank you...and they earned moeny which we have to work for a nr. of months....so what.
then there are concerts+commercials they do, they won't die for selling a few thousand cd's less :cool:

burntan
23-04-2006, 11:06 AM
the risk of production are in hollywood, if talking bout production of dvd's one cannot consider price of cd+duplicating, as buying the coppyright is the big part of the real costs.
about the artists i am not that worried as some of the forumers.
just think they go to one tv-show, say hello, yes , no , thank you...and they earned moeny which we have to work for a nr. of months....so what.
then there are concerts+commercials they do, they won't die for selling a few thousand cd's less :cool:

When I say the cost of production of the movie, I really mean the cost to produce a movie, not the production cost of a DVD media. Usually film maker spent millions if not billion to produce a movie and facing great risk that the movie not selling. Yes, the main income they expect is from the cinema, but some movie which are not selling well at cinema do rely on DVD sales to cover their loses. Film making is a risky business, high return is reasonable.

While you are looking at those super pop stars earning easy money on just few commercial and TV shows, there are thousands of other artist struggling to make a living behind the scense. Most of the artist working more than 10 years as unknown before someone can remember their name, super star is not guarantee for everyone as well.

hmckl
23-04-2006, 03:22 PM
almost:

because the "pirated" cd's come from the same factories and same machines as the originals ???
so because of the first it would be net (tax-free) profit ???
because i have seen matsallehs buying a dvd of "bruce allmighty" 1 year after they could see it in cinemas, for 24.90 AND THAT WERE EUROS not RM !!!

It always puzzle me ..... I am a frequent visitors of China ... you can buy original CD (of exact quality and at times extra ++ eg VCD, books etc) for 30 RENMINBI (about 15 RM) but our local CD is normally about RM 40. So he power is definitely with local distributor of the CD; remember > 1 year ago there was some talks about restricting price of local made CD to < RM 20 by Minstry of Domestic, but the talks seem to 'die quietly' since than :confused:

expat1609
23-04-2006, 07:46 PM
It always puzzle me ..... I am a frequent visitors of China ... you can buy original CD (of exact quality and at times extra ++ eg VCD, books etc) for 30 RENMINBI (about 15 RM) but our local CD is normally about RM 40. So he power is definitely with local distributor of the CD; remember > 1 year ago there was some talks about restricting price of local made CD to < RM 20 by Minstry of Domestic, but the talks seem to 'die quietly' since than :confused:

as so,so,so,so many talks of minstries.....
and could it be that the power is with the government once again...similar to the car industrie and a number of others, save malaysia with high taxes ???????

bslee
23-04-2006, 10:13 PM
1 year ago there was some talks about restricting price of local made CD to < RM 20 by Minstry of Domestic, but the talks seem to 'die quietly' since than :confused:

The ministry chickened out lah!..much to our dismay!. :mad:
Anyway, I resort to buying "used" discs..sure save $$!. :D

sirgalahad2010
24-04-2006, 12:33 PM
Bill Gates: "We're encouraged by China's efforts to strengthen intellectual property protection, which will provide the foundation for continued expansion of the IT industry in China".

Hu Jintao: "China is focused on and has already accomplished much in creating and enforcing laws to protect intellectual property. We take our promises very seriously".

'nuff said.

layman
24-04-2006, 12:43 PM
welcome to the imperial land of China

famous quote among chinese- if u want fakes come to china

rhetoric of those speeches are spin for the consumption of the public

enough said

sirgalahad2010
24-04-2006, 12:52 PM
Bill Gates is not stupid, whatever else you may think of him!

And if China cleans up its IP act, which they will if they want to remain nice-nice with Uncle Sam, then watch out Msia!

I am sure that Kak Rafidah will get an earful on IP protection from her US counterparts when she goes there to negotiate the proposed Msia-US FTA.

And if u think that the Msian govt is strong enough to withstand the pressure from an aggrieved US, then think again (brave words from Nor Mohd Yakcop not withstanding).

layman
24-04-2006, 12:56 PM
china -the giant against malaysia the minnow

u can twist the arms and legs of malaysia

china-well its another playfround altogether

sirgalahad2010
24-04-2006, 01:00 PM
Yah, Msia will have to play ball with Uncle Sam. Not a question of how, but when.

In China - they send IP violators to the gulag. Which is better than being put in front of a firing squad!

burntan
24-04-2006, 01:05 PM
May be even China have the same or even higher piracy rate as Malaysia, but the total license copy sold of MS products there should be still worth Bill Gate paying attention to.

bslee
24-04-2006, 11:58 PM
In China - they send IP violators to the gulag. Which is better than being put in front of a firing squad!

Bolehland syndrome!.. :D You know, I know, million others know it. Local justice = see my hand waving sideways?..either too little or too much can be meted out here. 5 years jail for Rm5 robbery, snatch or extortion, but "affordable" RMxx" fine for contractor who let heavy material drop from 20th floor killing someone unlucky below and wrecking the victim's half mill Bimmer.. :confused:

sirgalahad2010
26-04-2006, 09:04 AM
"KL urged to do more to protect copyrights" - Associated Press report in today's Spore Straits Times.

US Deputy Commerce Secretary David Sampson, who is now in KL, urged Msia to step up efforts to protect intellectual property rights (IPR) of American companies, saying that it would be a key issue in the free trade pact planned between the US and Msia.

He said: "Msia has made progress. We appreciate that progress but clearly, there is a lot more that can be done, especially in optical discs and pharmaceuticals".

Msia is one of 36 countries on a US watch list of serious copyright violators. Illegal movies and video game discs from Msia are sold openly throughout the country and exported as far as S. America and Africa.

The Business Software Alliance has said that 61% of all software used in Msia in 2004, the latest reporting year, was illegal. The global piracy rate is 35% and the Asia-Pacific rate is 53%.

David Sampson: "Intellectual property rights are a critically important issue to the US govt, US businesses and in particular, the US Dept of Commerce. It is one of the foundation issues in all the free trade negotiations that we are engaged in".

(above emphases mine)

I believe that the PM will be visiting the US within the next 2 months. He will definitely be pressed on this issue by the US govt. And so too will Kak Rafidah when she goes to negotiate the FTA with the US.

rabbiteeth84
26-04-2006, 05:31 PM
whatever it is, when will the anti-pirated raid be finished? i dun think it will be persistent thou

one thing about original VCD that i dun like is that there seems to be a lot of scenes being cut out, why is that so? no fun watchng that

penangkia
26-04-2006, 10:17 PM
whatever it is, when will the anti-pirated raid be finished? i dun think it will be persistent thou

one thing about original VCD that i dun like is that there seems to be a lot of scenes being cut out, why is that so? no fun watchng that


That is exactly the point. How can anything be sold as original if something is added or taken away from the ORIGINAL. In this respect, the fakes are actually more original, then the altered originals,
Why aren't the protectors of intellectual property and other "involved parties" not bothered by this??
I remember Steven Spielberg refused permit to screen his award winning movie ,Schindler's List, in bolehland, if any part the film is to be snipped.
Should we then pay original prices for stuff that taliban wannabes deemed fit for our consumption... if we have a choice ?? :(

bslee
26-04-2006, 10:32 PM
That is exactly the point. How can anything be sold as original if something is added or taken away from the ORIGINALShould we then pay original prices for stuff that taliban wannabes deemed fit for our consumption... if we have a choice ?? :(


You're absolutely right from your POV, but sadly the distributor may not agree from that angle. We could assume when they are holding the rights to distribute, its their perrogative as they see fit how to package the product even if it means shortchanging us. They've been doing it all along and hardly or never been challenged.
Ok..we DO have a choice (living in a land with little or No choice)..Don't buy!..no-one can incriminate or sue us for "not buying" their products.

Somebody said this somewhere.. SACD is better than red book CD in sonic quality..fine!.. So if a piece of music by XXX was horrible, SACD is better by making sound "more horrible!". :D

penangkia
26-04-2006, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=bslee]
Ok..we DO have a choice (living in a land with little or No choice)..Don't buy!..no-one can incriminate or sue us for "not buying" their products.


Not buying original taliban edited version is only one of the choices, the other choice is buying original fakes.

One is selling fake originals and the other is selling original fakes.

I know the chioce I have as a buyer under such circumstances.

Don't buy? Why not ? Why should people deny themselves of something wonderful due the screw-ups of others.

Not so different between choosing BN and Pas, but people still need to choose....some don't of course...that is their choice.

kwchang
27-04-2006, 01:02 AM
Let's not get emotional over censorship. It is another issue and as far as I see, unrelated to the sale of pirated stuff. Piracy is not justifiable because we have censorship. Take away the censors and we will still have piracy. So stop barking up the wrong tree.

By the way, today, 27th April is National Intellectual Property Day.

Check out http://www.mipc.gov.my/ (it wasn't displaying properly when I tried it just now)

penangkia
27-04-2006, 03:33 AM
Actually, nothing much to be emotional about...just stating my point. ;)

But why do you think this issue is not related. Surely you must agree that an original, edited or censored cannot be claimed to be an original and sold as one.
You think a real intellectual property owner who is proud of his work will allow that. ( see my earlier post on Steven Spielberg, now that is what I call a respectable property owner, not one who just want to make money and dont give a shiit about what is done to his work and what HIS final customers get.

We will still have piracy irrespective of what we do, ( like we still have drug traffickers despite the death panelty) but don't you think it will lessen the need for buying fakes for many who are now buying fakes because they want to enjoy the real thing but cannot get the uncensored original???

The ones barking up the wrong tree are the property owners and his tenents for pointing fingers at one another. The agents in between meanwhile tip toe to their banks for making suckers out of both.. :(

sirgalahad2010
27-04-2006, 08:32 AM
Why is it so difficult for people to admit that buying or producing pirated goods in any form is just plain wrong, if not illegal?

Instead we have endless sophistries and justifications being trotted out to say that there is nothing wrong in buying or producing such stuff and that all the IP, copyright and trademark owners are to be blamed for the "obscene" profits that they are making.

Its sad what our kids are learning from us - that buying fakes is ok. No problem, lah - just go study and get good grades!

penangkia
27-04-2006, 07:41 PM
[QUOTE=sirgalahad2010]Why is it so difficult for people to admit that buying or producing pirated goods in any form is just plain wrong, if not illegal?

By the same token, why is it so difficult for some people to admit piracy is a real global problem ( not just in bolehland) and will not just vanish by hollow preaching of right and wrong. :rolleyes:

Smokers know that smoking is bad for health, yet millions ( intellectuals, doctors, presidents, prime ministers, priests etc,) across the world continue this nasty habit. And that, despite having spent billions by the world community to educate people that it is outright maddness to smoke.

SunwayKid
27-04-2006, 10:04 PM
......... piracy is a real global problem ( not just in bolehland) and will not just vanish by hollow preaching of right and wrong. :rolleyes: ..........

You are absolutely right! Thanks to modern technology - Matrix 4 can be downloaded even before shooting starts and the downloading does not start in bolehland, not with the art of the state speed provided by the Internet Service Providers.

Every potential customer knows that output of triads aiming camcorders at movie screen is not worth buying as you will end up more frustrated, not hearing what you should hear and not seeing what you should see. The best-quality pirates come from weasels within the studio –people with access to prints back where the films originate.

So, why not go back to the source, instead of treating the symptoms. Why is it so difficult to accept that the source of the problem is back at Hollywood and their distributors who does the distribution? Sending the goons down to the Mall in Kuantan is not going to prevent anything.

In theory, we (as a nation) believe stealing is wrong (here we go again). In theory, we are selling our water for pittance due to a one-sided contract that was forced on us. In theory - that is stealing but the self-righteous with their delusions might not be able to accept that theory.

kwchang
28-04-2006, 01:19 AM
...Thanks to modern technology - Matrix 4 can be downloaded even before shooting starts...Hmmm... did someone invent time travel? or am I missing something here? I'd like to get tomorrow's papers today if that is possible!


...Sending the goons down to the Mall in Kuantan is not going to prevent anything...HaHaHa..reminds me of someone commenting that he would rather see the young kids at the pasar malam hawking pirated stuff than to find them taking drugs and being a burden to society...the hawkers are small minnows in the bigger picture!

sirgalahad2010
28-04-2006, 11:50 AM
Bravo, Mr Chang!

It seems that a lot of people out there think that buying pirated goods and fake stuff is a "victimless crime" - no one gets hurt, so why kick up a fuss?

And these are the same good folks who get totally upset about the crime situation (robberies, snatch thefts, murders, rapes) and illegal immigrants in Msia, and the seeming inability of the police to do anything about it.

The convoluted logic amazes me.

burntan
28-04-2006, 12:45 PM
How about situation like this..... if I am not going to watch a movie in cinema and will not buy original DVD due to the reason that I am not affortable. I mean even WITHOUT piracy, I won't spend that kind of money and the IP owner will still won't earn any my money with their products. In this case if I buy pirated DVD movies.... is it ok or not?

penangkia
28-04-2006, 12:52 PM
Interpol lauds KL's anti-piracy measures. ( The Star, today)

(Quote)
Malaysia, regarded as one of the region's top producer of pirated IP has been commended for it's efforts in checking such violations.
The praise came from the Motion Picture Association of America and Interpol, said Domestic Trade and Consumers Minister, Datuk Shafie Apdal.
Interpol has praised Malaysia on it's law enforcement during a meeting on IP piracy in Geneva recently.
Malaysia's committment to fight piracy would also be proved with the setting up of the IP Court by end of this year.....he said after the launching of the National Intellect Day...( Unquote)

I will bet a bottle of vintage sahib that this was not reported in gosples of S'pore Straits Times. :rolleyes:

But still there are people who thinks that global piracy will just disappear by mere talks and useless rhetorics, and cannot recognise that a problem of such global propotions needs a concerted effort by the global community,including understanding the underlining factors of the hows and whys of this international violation by the peoples of the whole world.

"Stop buying, don't buy, victim/victimless, illegal..blah blah.." all this used and unoriginal arguments are just plainly hopeless in the fight against piracy.

It will be futile fight if left to these armchair critics to solve this very real globle problem. :o

penangkia
28-04-2006, 02:15 PM
How about situation like this..... if I am not going to watch a movie in cinema and will not buy original DVD due to the reason that I am not affortable. I mean even WITHOUT piracy, I won't spend that kind of money and the IP owner will still won't earn any my money with their products. In this case if I buy pirated DVD movies.... is it ok or not?

That's an interesting point you brought out. I was told that Rolex is not the least bothered about fake Rolexes being sold. Their posture is that, "if a person can afford a Rolex, then he is my potential customer and he will buy a genuine one. If a person cannot afford a Rolex, he is a non issue, he can buy a fake and I have not lost a customer".

SunwayKid
28-04-2006, 02:52 PM
Hmmm... did someone invent time travel? or am I missing something here? I'd like to get tomorrow's papers today if that is possible!


Aiseh Chang - you got me there. Just as there will be no Matrix 4, there would not be any tomorrow's paper. The emphasis was on the frightening speed that one can download 1 GB of material from the internet. Initially, wanted to use the phrase faster than the speed of light but somehow, " downloading Matrix 4 before shooting start" has more bite to it - don't you think so!? :)

Hasn't society taught us to be "good victims" of crime? If somehow, you get robbed, you are asked to give up your valuables to avoid being killed. So, believing that the peron behind the counter is a triad member, who asked me to buy a pirated product, to avoid being mugged, of course, I will do so. Only a person with suicide tendencies won't be able to see the logic in that. :p

I believe we have davigate enough from the subject - whether taking the fight to the malls is going to solve anything. For the same reasons I have said before, the answer is still NO. If one wants to talk victim / victimless crime in bolehland from a foreign point of view, then one should perhaps start another thread and I will give my two Malaysian cents worth of thoughts in it. It might not be equivalent to a dime or a nickel - but at least, it is still Malaysian.

sirgalahad2010
28-04-2006, 08:56 PM
Well, let me know where you will be when the US starts putting pressure on the Msian govt over pirated music, movies and software. Will you stand in the shopping centres and loudly proclaim your God-given right to buy pirated goods and fake stuff?

Spare me the hypocrisy!

SunwayKid
28-04-2006, 09:58 PM
........when the US starts putting pressure on the Msian govt over pirated music, movies and software.

Aiseh.....is that a typo? :)
The last time I read in a Malaysian paper, they were expressing pleasure on the efforts by the Malaysian gormen.

One forumer quoted the quote below earlier. In theory (again!?), I don't believe the Motion Picture Association of America and Interpol are hypocrites.



Interpol lauds KL's anti-piracy measures. ( The Star, today)

Malaysia, regarded as one of the region's top producer of pirated IP has been commended for it's efforts in checking such violations. The praise came from the Motion Picture Association of America and Interpol, said Domestic Trade and Consumers Minister, Datuk Shafie Apdal.
Interpol has praised Malaysia on it's law enforcement during a meeting on IP piracy in Geneva recently.
Malaysia's committment to fight piracy would also be proved with the setting up of the IP Court by end of this year.....he said after the launching of the National Intellect Day...

sirgalahad2010
30-04-2006, 01:51 PM
Well - who to believe - Shafie Apdal or David Sampson (US Deputy Commerce Secretary - see my post #57 in this thread)?

Fact: Msia is one of 36 countries on a US watch list of serious copyright violators. Its strange that Msia would be on this watch list if both the MPAA and Interpol have a good opinion about the country's anti-piracy measures. Does the US govt have its own agenda in pushing this issue?

Fact: BSA said that in 2004, 61% of all software used in Msia was illegal. BSA includes IT industry heavyweights such as Microsoft and Apple. Is its statement either frivolous or false?

From an AFP report on Saturday:

- Chinese companies have paid more than US$1 billion to foreign firms after losing copyright lawsuits over the past 5 years, according to China's Science & Technology Minister.

- China's State Council has published an order that will crack down on copyright piracy. Among the measures specified in the order:

>>all illegal production lines of pirated discs and the transport and sale of fake products must be smashed.
>>streets should be cleared of vendors of pirated products and administrators of marketplaces will be held accountable for the sale of fake goods.
>>a national system will be set up in 50 cities to receive and handle complaints about copyright piracy
>>officials who fail to enforce IPR will be "severely punished".

Now, if an emerging superpower like China can be made to "toe the line" with regard to cracking down on copyright piracy, then can you even contemplate the type of pressure that could be brought to bear on Msia in this area?