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Jose Mourinho
10-02-2006, 06:24 PM
This is on CNN News today (10.2.2006)

3,000 in Malaysia cartoon protest

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Thousands of Muslims marched in Malaysia's biggest protest against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed as the government declared it illegal to possess the caricatures.

Some 3,000 demonstrators called for the destruction of Denmark, Israel and the United States as they marched in a steady rain from a mosque to the Danish Embassy in Kuala Lumpur, The Associated Press reported.

"Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America," some of the protesters shouted.

The march was about 10 times larger than a similar protest after Friday prayers last week, AP said. Riot police guarded the high-rise building where the embassy is located, and a police helicopter hovered overhead.

"You are playing with fire Denmark. We are ready to fight," AP quoted Hanifah Maidin of the youth wing of the fundamentalist Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party as saying.

Speakers condemned European newspapers for publishing the caricatures and demanded an apology from the Danish government. The cartoons were first published in a Danish newspaper last September.

One of the cartoons showed Mohammed wearing a turban shaped as a bomb. Many Muslims consider any depiction of the prophet to be sacrilegious.

The cartoons have sparked protests around the world, some of which have turned violent. Protesters in Beirut torched the building housing the Danish Embassy, and angry demonstrations have led to about 10 deaths in Afghanistan.

On Thursday, about half a million Muslims turned a religious ceremony in the Lebanese capital into a peaceful protest against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, as Iran and Syria rejected U.S. accusations they were inciting anger over the caricatures. (Full story)

Late Thursday, Malaysia's Internal Security Ministry issued a statement saying it was an offense for anyone to publish, produce, import, circulate or possess the caricatures, AP reported.

The ministry, headed by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, said it was issuing the order to curb the circulation of material that could cause uneasiness among Malaysians and disrupt public order.

The ministry also ordered a small Malaysian newspaper, the Sarawak Tribune, to stop publication indefinitely after it reproduced one of the caricatures last weekend.

The Tribune's publishers apologized for what they called an editorial oversight, but the ministry said the newspaper had to be penalized because its action was "irresponsible and insensitive" to Muslims, AP reported.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/10/cartoon.protests/index.html

shali
11-02-2006, 12:00 AM
This is on CNN News today (10.2.2006)
Thousands of Muslims marched in Malaysia's biggest protest against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed as the government declared it illegal to possess the caricatures.

The ministry, headed by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, said it was issuing the order to curb the circulation of material that could cause uneasiness among Malaysians and disrupt public order.]


There is a compelling point here.

The ban was designed to avoid "causing uneasiness among Malaysians and disrupt the public order"

But this riot-like demonstrations might well have disrupted public order and might even have caused uneasiness among Malaysians in the first place. Interesting indeed :rolleyes:

jtl
11-02-2006, 12:18 AM
This is on CNN News today (10.2.2006)

The Tribune's publishers apologized for what they called an editorial oversight, but the ministry said the newspaper had to be penalized because its action was "irresponsible and insensitive" to Muslims, AP reported.



I am just curious - did anyone find the Da Vincci Code "irresponsible and insensitive" to Catholics?

USJ27Resident
11-02-2006, 12:29 AM
I am just curious - did anyone find the Da Vincci Code "irresponsible and insensitive" to Catholics?


Only the Vatican and probably the rest of the Catholic world.... :p I guess the author will probably be persona non grata in St Peter's Square...

jtl
11-02-2006, 12:35 AM
Hahaha... that's my point... why is there being such a huge fuss over this cartoon?

I'm Catholic but I thoroughly enjoyed reading the Da Vincci code - didn't think much of the writing but loved the plot. Anyways, I really sometimes wonder why some people get so worked up over things and then cause massive traffic jams in town....

USJ27Resident
11-02-2006, 12:53 AM
Hahaha... that's my point... why is there being such a huge fuss over this cartoon?

I'm Catholic but I thoroughly enjoyed reading the Da Vincci code - didn't think much of the writing but loved the plot. Anyways, I really sometimes wonder why some people get so worked up over things and then cause massive traffic jams in town....

Wei... as a catholic myself, I think DaVinci Code was meant to be as a literal fiction based on "some facts" but as to the said cartoon... it was drawn as to poke "fun" towards the religion and if that was not thought provoking ~ I don't know what is....

in any case ~ no one in the right frame of mind would want to walk up to a hornets' nest and whack it! Its like asking for trouble.... :p In other words, either plain stupid or just plain ignorant to being sensitive to other people's beliefs.

jtl
11-02-2006, 01:42 AM
I understand what you are saying. I am not saying that it was right. I guess I am just wondering whether if I were in their shoes, would I protest on the streets as well.

Something for me to ponder on tonite..... :)

joker2107
11-02-2006, 01:57 AM
what abt "thorn birds", passion of christ, etc? extreme fundamentalists wud find them objectionable. but i guess some people r more tolerant than others. just like some actions r more tolerated if acted or caused by accepted parties. not that i agree with d subject caricatures - i havent even seen them. notice how its so very okay 2 publish "disfigured" celebrities 2 embarass them or cause some discomfort 2 them? notice how come local general elections time caricatures of d opposition r published where some of these may thread d borders of slander n d victims hs no recourse whatsoever bcos of partisan media ownership? without a doubt d subject caricatures were an invitation 2 commence 3rd world war n its prepetrators shud b flushed down d toilet bowl. but its so damn sickening that anything deemed anti islam deserves a big huhah while it is okay 4 such protesters 2 commit d same sin against anybody else. can these extremists also hv feelings n support all other ppl who hv been unjustly wronged, regardless of religion? afterall, i believe islam is abt fair n just humanity.

Teeque
11-02-2006, 02:44 AM
I thought it is also an offense to gather in public for purposes of demonstration? ISM practicing double standards again?


"Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America," some of the protesters shouted.

"You are playing with fire Denmark. We are ready to fight," AP quoted Hanifah Maidin of the youth wing of the fundamentalist Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party as saying.
Going by the lingo used by the protestors, it certainly isnt peaceful. If it were to go out of hand, it might hv disrupt the peace and stability of our nation, as touted by our country's leaders. Fighting fire with fire will only take matters 'out of the cooking pot into the fire'.

de_scorpio
11-02-2006, 03:09 AM
I am totally agree tht the cartoon should not be published, but this is only the wrong doing of the newspaper cartoonist, not the whole Denmark People nor the rest of many many innocent people . During tsunami , earthquake, and many other international fund raising, many of these kind hearted people form all countries who had lend helping hands and donations to these Muslim countries, regardless of races and religion.
They didnt protest and bomb the innocent people when a few fanatics like Zaqawi slaugthered the heads of the foreigners in Iraq.

Where is the filty rich Arabs when Pakistan and Indonesia strike by Tsunami, where are those protesters on the streeet now when it is was winter in the earthquake affected nations who are mostly Muslim brotherhoods.

I saw in the documentaries tht the volunteers are mostly fr the west rich countries and Japanese.

Not all the westerners are bad and not all the Muslims are fanatics like Zaqawi. The money and energy tht wasted on the protest and terrorist attacks should be used to help up the muslim brothers who are still suffering. The Denmark Gorverment already apologized for the mishaps of their newspaper. If they want to protest, they should protest the m'sia goverment too.

I really dun understand. Have u everheard the rich oil countries ever do charity works?

starrnorth88
11-02-2006, 04:04 AM
Malaysia always participate in world events - '

other countries donate to tsunami fund - malaysia also
other countries donate to earthquake fund - malaysia also
other countries demonstrate - malaysia also

Other countries raise prices of oil - malaysia also (but we are told that after this we are still very cheap prices)

show malaysia is in touch with world affairs.

(but I have not come across another country who have to repair crack road twice)

Joe Gomez
11-02-2006, 09:09 AM
I am just curious - did anyone find the Da Vincci Code "irresponsible and insensitive" to Catholics?Many did find it so. But most realised that taking to the streets will only make Dan Brown ( the writer of The Da Vinci code richer ( ask Salman Rushdie, he laughed all the way to the bank especially when all Hell broke loose & sales of his Satanic Verses went Heaven-wards ) ;).
Sorry, I was just being flip. But Christians did not take to the streets, strap themselves with sachets of TNT ( or whatever else is fashionable wear for suicide bombers ), threaten to singe George Bush's "bush", threaten to bomb the building housing the Writers Guild ( got like this one or not ? ), threaten to kill every Jew in sight cos they caused untold misery to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ......... & so on & so forth. Surely my faith in Christianity cannot be so shallow that I am devastated by the publication of the Da Vinci code, the staging of Jesus Christ superstar, the animated discussions about the Mystery of the Virgin birth, .....................
Most Christians have risen above such rubbish.
When will all Muslims rise above merely reacting to every ranting and raving of those who dont believe in Islam ........... ranting and raving in response is not helping anyone .... least of all the sanctity & dignity of the beautiful religion that is Islam.
Let the dogs bark ........ just ignore them.

FineTuned
11-02-2006, 10:44 AM
I think the worst enemy of Islam is the Muslims themselves. Do they ever stop to think why the rest of the world (not just the West) has difficulty with their ideology? I don't think the average Muslim even knows what his/her religion is truely all about. Most of the time when I try to converse with my Muslim colleagues about religion or philosophy, I am told that I should not question their beliefs because they were taught from young that that is the way things are done, etc......this seems to me a religion where symbolism is more important than a close personal relationship with their Maker.

Joe Gomez
11-02-2006, 11:02 AM
I think the worst enemy of Islam is the Muslims themselves. Do they ever stop to think why the rest of the world (not just the West) has difficulty with their ideology? I don't think the average Muslim even knows what his/her religion is truely all about. Most of the time when I try to converse with my Muslim colleagues about religion or philosophy, I am told that I should not question their beliefs because they were taught from young that that is the way things are done, etc......this seems to me a religion where symbolism is more important than a close personal relationship with their Maker.Not too long ago, we Christians in general, were not too eager to open up a dialogue on our religion either ......... But Christians are none the worse for wear as a result of tolerating such dialogue.
The Muslim thought process will evolve ........ trust me it will ................
People like Pak Lah are abundant out there .......

isarahim
11-02-2006, 12:03 PM
But this riot-like demonstrations might well have disrupted public order and might even have caused uneasiness among Malaysians in the first place. Interesting indeed :rolleyes:

Yes. In partiular among modern Muslims.

isarahim
11-02-2006, 12:04 PM
I don't think the average Muslim even knows what his/her religion is truely all about.

The problem is that they are lured by various, often self proclaimed, "authorities" to think in a certain way.

Jose Mourinho
11-02-2006, 12:47 PM
I think the worst enemy of Islam is the Muslims themselves. Do they ever stop to think why the rest of the world (not just the West) has difficulty with their ideology? I don't think the average Muslim even knows what his/her religion is truely all about. Most of the time when I try to converse with my Muslim colleagues about religion or philosophy, I am told that I should not question their beliefs because they were taught from young that that is the way things are done, etc......this seems to me a religion where symbolism is more important than a close personal relationship with their Maker.

The same applies to Christianity and other religions, but in more ways than one, to Christianity. It is just that it does not have a political platform to stand on and shout.

Jose Mourinho
11-02-2006, 12:54 PM
Surely my faith in Christianity cannot be so shallow that I am devastated by the publication of the Da Vinci code, the staging of Jesus Christ superstar, the animated discussions about the Mystery of the Virgin birth....

Hey Joe. I enjoyed Jesus Christ Superstar. I watched the stage show in London and the two movie versions. But I was branded a heretic for watching them and one of my so-called friends even under the pretence of borrowing the DVD and then lost it. When I asked for it to be returned, he said he has smashed it to pieces because it was heresy and he was trying to save my soul. There wasn't much of a difference between him and those who shouted 'death to the Danes'. Really, there wasn't.

jtl
11-02-2006, 12:57 PM
But I was branded a heretic for watching them and one of my so-called friends even under the pretence of borrowing the DVD and then lost it. When I asked for it to be returned, he said he has smashed it to pieces because it was heresy and he was trying to save my soul. There wasn't much of a difference between him and those who shouted 'death to the Danes'. Really, there wasn't.

You still friends with this guy? :p

Jose Mourinho
11-02-2006, 01:01 PM
When he told me he has smashed my Jesus Christ Superstar DVD, I just said 'Oh' and walked away. I mean - was there a point trying to convince a person whose mind was so made up and closed to all sensibilities of anything?

Joe Gomez
11-02-2006, 01:11 PM
Hey Joe. I enjoyed Jesus Christ Superstar. I watched the stage show in London and the two movie versions. But I was branded a heretic for watching them and one of my so-called friends even under the pretence of borrowing the DVD and then lost it. When I asked for it to be returned, he said he has smashed it to pieces because it was heresy and he was trying to save my soul. There wasn't much of a difference between him and those who shouted 'death to the Danes'. Really, there wasn't.My point exactly sir.

Choon1980
11-02-2006, 01:42 PM
I find it funny that many Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace. Then go out on the streets to demand the death of (insert country's name here).

Jose Mourinho
11-02-2006, 01:46 PM
Choon1980. Islam in its purest form is a religion of peace and love. Same goes for most religions. Like I have said before, Christianity has its many extremists as well but fortunately (others may deem it as unfortunately) they do not have the political platform to stand on and scream out threats. This may be due to the fact many of the 'Christian countries' have now gone secular. I maybe wrong in my last statement and thus please correct me if I am erroneous. Thanks.

Joe Gomez
11-02-2006, 01:57 PM
..................This may be due to the fact many of the 'Christian countries' have now gone secular. I maybe wrong in my last statement and thus please correct me if I am erroneous. Thanks.
...... & have u noticed the variety of shades of secularism in varous countries ? :p

joker2107
11-02-2006, 03:14 PM
I think the worst enemy of Islam is the Muslims themselves. .
agreed, in the global context. locally d enemy is politics. d 2 institutions r conflicting n must never b mixed into an interdependency.


I don't think the average Muslim even knows what his/her religion is truely all about. .
beg to differ. 1. s said above, umno-ism/pas-ism (n now keadilan-ism too?) hv been infused in2 d practice of islam locally. my experience with muslims is that they r always very happy 2 share their belief. i find it very enriching 2 hv d opportunity 2 understand y people do things their way.


Most of the time when I try to converse with my Muslim colleagues about religion or philosophy, I am told that I should not question their beliefs because they were taught from young that that is the way things are done, etc.......
it cud b all in d "how" n d tone of yr conversation. do u barrage them wit whys and comparisons? when i ask somebody 4 an opinion or or answer or 2 talk i let that person do d talking undirected n uninterrupted. i too wud also tell u off if u ever try 2 question my belief or make insinuations regarding d appropriateness or sanity of d rites n rituals of my religion. u wanna do such things go start yr own faith. then u can make d rules.


this seems to me a religion where symbolism is more important than a close personal relationship with their Maker.
whats rituals n rites n pictures n statues if not symbolism? which religion does not over emphaise on such superfluous non-relationship practices? wud u say d same when buddhists create d largest statue of buddha? or hindus carry d heaviest kavadis?

islam may hv bcom a punching bag of sorts but i'd strongly recommend that participation in such unwarranted discourse is no more different than being an extremist on d other side of d fence.

expat1609
11-02-2006, 03:23 PM
The problem is that they are lured by various, often self proclaimed, "authorities" to think in a certain way.
exactly !!! all followers no leaders, never know to think, just listen, follow and never question! but why, how can it be??
looking all those violent protesters right now again - has anybody told them that brains are for thinking?
are they really that easy influenced, due to undereducation ?
or must i say due to being educated the way their leaders want them to be (like: a dumb nut will follow whatever i say, as long it belives i am allknowing)?

i think one can lure a certain group of people, but not masses of 10,000's or even 100,000's ???
how does that work? somebody tell me, i stop working tomorrow :D

sirgalahad2010
11-02-2006, 04:44 PM
Umm....what about the Crusades? A historical aberration?

FineTuned
11-02-2006, 04:46 PM
....my experience with muslims is that they r always very happy 2 share their belief. i find it very enriching 2 hv d opportunity 2 understand y people do things their way....
....my experience with muslims is that they r always very happy when I agree with their belief, and offended if i don't......sorry, i guess i'm guilty of generalising here. But my personal experience does sort of lean that way.



....it cud b all in d "how" n d tone of yr conversation....you got me there...i'm not the most tactful chap on earth...but i seem to have no problems discussing the same subjects in the same tone with colleagues of other religions.



whats rituals n rites n pictures n statues if not symbolism? which religion does not over emphaise on such superfluous non-relationship practices? Some religions do have a heavy emphasis on symbolism and their practise of it is therefore not surprising. Is Islam one of them, then?

USJ27Resident
11-02-2006, 07:00 PM
(but I have not come across another country who have to repair crack road twice)


I laffed so hard when I read this one line.... how true... so true... aiyohhh... :p

Joe Gomez
11-02-2006, 10:32 PM
Umm....what about the Crusades? A historical aberration?A shameful blot in the past HISTORY of a religion that is far bigger than the Crusaders and their Crusades.
All done in the name of religion.
Gosh ...... isnt it a similar phase that followers of Islam are going thru, albeit without swords & spears ( or whatever the crusaders used those days to bring the " One & Only True God to the infidels "!!! )

bugbear
11-02-2006, 10:35 PM
This is on CNN News today (10.2.2006)

"Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America," some of the protesters shouted.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/10/cartoon.protests/index.html

Now, I think it is justify to call for the destruction of Denmark (not that i condone that) in this context (publishing of cartoon) but when have Isreal, USA and Bush got into the equation? Won't this hurt the feeling of the above nations and personality? What if they took umbrage to this unfair treatment? Does that mean it is alright to hurt other's feeling while others cannot hurt your feeling? :mad:

bugbear
12-02-2006, 01:27 AM
Umm....what about the Crusades? A historical aberration?

That my man is in the past. Christianity has since move on from the barbaric practices of force conversion. In those dark ages, Christianity is a form of political tool in the hand of the clegy to rule their personal fiefdom. In the hand of these clegy who know how to read latin while the masses do not (the bible in those time are written in latin) they are able to manipulate the masses. They are the king makers.
Thankfully, Christianity through protestant reformist like Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe and John Huss have return the true teaching of Christ to the masses. Bibles are being translated from latin to the common languages of the commoner to that they too can read for themselves. This in turn liberate them from the crutches of the clegy.

Coming back to Islam, I can see a similar pattern coinciding with those of the Catholic churces of the past. Islam is being used as a political tool by the ulamas for their personal gain. The Quran are written in Arabic and has been translated into many languages but to the top ulamas, the best translation is still the arabic version and hence the need to study arabic. Ulamas are also king maker. Whatever edict or fatwas are deem as from Allah and not to be question. Remember Salman Rushidie?

Reformation? I can't see it coming for Islam at the moment with the mentality of the ummah being so subservient to the ulamas. If they say kill, then the masses will kill. If they say jihad, then the masses will go for jihad at the drop of a hat without question. How to reform may I ask?

FineTuned
12-02-2006, 01:03 PM
If the Muslims want to be the modernday copycats of the worst of Christianity instead of showing the world they have a new and better way to serve God and Mankind, then i am led to the conclusion that this religion also will not have the solution to world peace.

sirgalahad2010
12-02-2006, 06:28 PM
Umm...in the Christian New Testament, St Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians, said:

"Never do anything offensive to anyone - to Jews or Greeks or to the Church of God; just as I try to be helpful to everyone at all times, not anxious for my own advantage but for the advantage of everybody else, so that they may be saved".

That, at least to me, is pretty straightforward.

So, how to reconcile what St Paul said centuries ago with the concept of the freedom of the press and that it is ok to give offence by ridiculing someone's religion (which is essentially how this whole sorry cartoons episode started)?

Or are we to understand that the historical context in which St Paul wrote his letters are no longer relevant to our modern era of "enlightenment" and the rational where secular is best separated from religious?

Seems to me that the Golden Rule is pretty explicit - do unto others as you would have others do unto you. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

JackRyan1975
13-02-2006, 09:56 AM
So, how to reconcile what St Paul said centuries ago with the concept of the freedom of the press and that it is ok to give offence by ridiculing someone's religion (which is essentially how this whole sorry cartoons episode started)?

Erm...are you so sure that the cartoonist is a Christian?

Many in the west are deemed Christian at birth, in the same way as our religion here is stated as Islam, Buddha or Kristian etc according to our father's religion during our birth. But some of these people has never even stepped into a Church and thinks that Christmas is about Santa Claus.

Joe Gomez
13-02-2006, 08:39 PM
Erm...are you so sure that the cartoonist is a Christian? .................Hear Hear ............. !!!!!!
JackRyan1975 in some primitive minds "White = Christian". Churches were attacked in this recent episode for the same reason.

joker2107
14-02-2006, 01:06 PM
Seems to me that the Golden Rule is pretty explicit - do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Reason its called golden rule is this same rule is preached in every major religion - in different words but exact same meaning. theres at least 8 versions. theres also a very limited edition umbrella with these 8 versions printed boldly on it n some tshirts emblazones with the same.

sirgalahad2010
14-02-2006, 01:37 PM
I thot that Denmark portrays itself as a Christian (well, Lutheran) country - or that's what the centre-right political parties in the country are saying.

And I don't think you can adopt a "supermarket" or "cafeteria" approach to Christianity - i.e. choose what you like and follow, while discarding what you think is irrelevant or merely inconvenient. Likewise for other religions.

Btw, I read in today's Spore Straits Times that an Australian cartoonist has submitted 2 cartoons on the Holocaust to the Iranian newspaper that's running a contest to test the concept of freedom of the press and how far that extends. I mean, how far are people willing to go in order to push the envelope and make their point?

It seems that reasoned dialogue is degenerating into blindly frozen attitudes on both sides. And, no, no one seems to be bothered about the Golden Rule. Sad, but true. :(

Jose Mourinho
17-02-2006, 09:04 PM
And sadly, it has become political (or was it meant to be right from the beginning for some?)

Taken from The Star today, dated 17.2.2006:

Anger in Asia as cartoon protests flare

By Faisal Aziz
KARACHI (Reuters) - Muslim anger against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad flared anew in Asia on Friday with thousands rallying for a fifth day in Pakistan and police in Bangladesh blocking demonstrators heading for the Danish embassy in Dhaka.

Weeks of global protests over the cartoons have triggered fears of a clash of civilisations between the West and Islam, and have led to calls on all sides for calm.

Adding their voice to the crisis, former U.S. President Bill Clinton and French President Jacques Chirac said it was a mistake to publish the cartoons, which were first printed last September in Danish newspapers and then reprinted in many other countries.

In Pakistan, where five people have died in the latest wave of protests, police fired tear gas and detained more than 100 Islamists on Friday.

At least 10 protesters were detained after they blocked the main highway north from the southern city of Karachi and began hurling stones at vehicles.

Protests in Pakistan have been large and violent and many have taken on a distinctly anti-U.S. tone. Demonstrators, in addition to burning Danish flags, have attacked U.S. fast-food outlets and burned U.S. President George W. Bush in effigy.

.....

I hope that good sense prevails in Pakistan and other troubled countries. And despite many gripes, Malaysia is a wonderful country to live in, with its moderate stand, not only on this issue but has been so, on many past troubled incidents.