Widow has no remedy, counsel tells High Court [Archive]

cactuc1

28-12-2005, 08:00 AM

Wednesday December 28, 2005

Widow has no remedy, counsel tells High Court

BY CHELSEA L.Y. NG

KUALA LUMPUR: The widow of L/Kpl M. Moorthy, whom the Syariah Court had declared a Muslim, has no right to remedy in any court, the High Court heard.

This is the contention of Senior Federal Counsel Mohd Nasir Isa, when High Court judge of the Appellate and Special Powers division Justice Md Raus Sharif brought up the dilemma of S. Kaliammal yesterday.

Kaliammal has been involved in a tug-of-war with the religious authority over who should bury the body of her husband who died last Tuesday.

Kaliammal, 30, is seeking to declare that Moorthy was a Hindu who practised the Hindu way of life prior to his death and that any papers relating to his alleged conversion to Islam was null and void.

She also seeks to compel the Kuala Lumpur Hospital (HKL) to release the body to her for burial and to stop the Federal Territory Religious Council (MAIWP) from claiming the body.

During the hearing, Justice Md Raus asked why Nasir, who represented HKL and the Government, did not produce forms relating to Moorthy’s alleged conversion to Islam.

Nasir did not reply but argued that the proper forum to adjudicate the matter was the Syariah High Court.

Judge: What is the remedy for the family then? The widow is not a Muslim and she cannot go to the Syariah Court, so she comes to the civil court.

Nasir: It is not the function of this court to provide remedy for this matter. The fact that she cannot go to the Syariah Court does not mean that she can go to a civil court.

Judge: She is not a Muslim and cannot go to a Syariah Court. When she goes to a civil court, the respondents there will say that the case cannot be tried in a civil court. So, she has no remedy?

Nasir: Yes. She has no remedy.

That answer was greeted with loud murmurs from the public gallery.

The judge then asked: Is there something wrong then?

The whole court went silent.

Counsel for MAIWP Fakhrul Azman concurred that the Syariah Court was the right forum to hear matters relating to conversion to Islam.

Bar Council representative Haris Ibrahim, however, submitted that the “no remedy” argument was “the most frightening proposition”.

He said the universal principle had always been that relief and remedy were ancillary to a cause of action and not separable.

“Where there is a right, there is always a remedy. Remedies always follow rights. When one party is a non-Muslim, the forum cannot be the Syariah Court because of this principle,” he said.

Lawyer S. Kanesalingam, who appeared for the Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism, argued that the Syariah Court had no power to make an order on this case because Moorthy was not professing Islam.

He referred to Kaliammal’s affidavit, which said that Moorthy had carried the palkudam (milk pot) during a Thaipusam procession this year and that he was consuming alcohol and non-halal food.

President of the Syariah Lawyers Association Mohamad Buruk later addressed the court, stating that there were provisions in Islamic laws for non-Muslims to appear in the Syariah Court but they were never invoked in the last 20 years.

Kaliammal’s lead counsel M. Manoharan said that MAIWP must prove that there was indeed a conversion by Moorthy on Oct 11 last year and that it had been registered on May 14.

He also argued that Moorthy was mentally disturbed after the 1998 accident.

On Nasir’s argument that Kaliammal had not gone to the council or any authorities to challenge that her husband was a Muslim despite having been informed on Dec 1, Manoharan said: “Her husband had slipped into a coma by then. Who was to clean him up if not her? Where was the majlis then?

“You expect her to go round the country to ask people whether he was a Muslim?”

He added that the Council had also committed grave injustice by getting an ex-parte order from the Syariah Court last week for the body to be released to it for burial.

Moorthy had been in a coma since Nov 11. He was paralysed seven years ago.

He joined the armed forces in 1988 and was among the 10 climbers who took part in the Malaysia Everest 1997 project.

The court will deliver its decision today.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2005/12/28/courts/12970832&sec=courts
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Any comments about this ?

Pets=Friends

28-12-2005, 08:56 AM

monster

28-12-2005, 09:09 AM

sigh... 1st post i read this morning.... and am feeling sad....sad...sad.... was planning on getting coffee & sandwiches.... now no mood for breakfast...

joker2107

28-12-2005, 09:17 AM

QUOTE :

Judge: She is not a Muslim and cannot go to a Syariah Court. When she goes to a civil court, the respondents there will say that the case cannot be tried in a civil court. ]So, she has no remedy? [/SIZE]

Nasir: Yes. She has no remedy.

That answer was greeted with loud murmurs from the public gallery.

The judge then asked: Is there something wrong then?
The whole court went silent.

Counsel for MAIWP Fakhrul Azman concurred that the Syariah Court was the right forum to hear matters relating to conversion to Islam.

Bar Council representative Haris Ibrahim, however, submitted that the “no remedy” argument was “the most frightening proposition”.

He said the universal principle had always been that relief and remedy were ancillary to a cause of action and not separable.

“Where there is a right, there is always a remedy.Remedies always follow rights.

UNQOUTE

hear ye, hear ye, if nasir's (who represented HKL and the Government) statement is law, then haris ibrahim must be d most mild mannered attorney on this planet n our bolehland is striding great leaps n bounds. back into d annals of d dark age.

i'd wager that d silence befalling on d judge's question "is there something wrong then" is evidence of the preposterousity and magnanimity of d danger of having incompetence representing d govt. is this d only facade in our environment we encounter such impunity n ridicule? :mad: :confused: :( :eek:

joker2107

28-12-2005, 09:22 AM

No comments, just a lot of anger :mad:
When you read things like this, you know our country judicial system has fail us. Why then should we become law abiding citizens. I feel like we live in a cowboy town where the biggest and meanest rules.

hey, u a pet or a friend? d judiciary has far from fallen from grace in this episode. read my earlier post. c how d great judge silenced d courtroom. thats d most powerful statement ever, in any ciurcumstance - silence.

isarahim

28-12-2005, 04:22 PM

Yet another completely crazy and disgraceful story. The moral of it:

We need ONE law.

We need ONE justice system.

We need ONE police force.

jonaChong

28-12-2005, 06:20 PM

Have your MyKad check and confirm that it records the correct religious.

cactuc1

28-12-2005, 07:05 PM

If i remember correctly..last time got one case in Melaka , the husband converted to the national religion of Malaysia..then later died..and the non muslim wife cannot inherit the husband properties !!..The community there protest not fair ah.
Only later the YangPertuan Melaka intervene..give around 50%(i think) back to the his family and children!..I search google.."Non muslim wife cannot inherit Muslim husband property"..and many articles can read about it.

Then another old interesting story is Lina Joy conversion from islam to another faith..
"In April 23 2001, High Court Justice Datuk Faiza Tamby Chik rejected Lina Joy’s application that to drop the word ‘Islam’ on her identity card. He said that Malays could not renounce Islam because an ethnic Malay was defined by the Constitution as "a person who professes the religion of Islam," and the jurisdiction in conversion matter lay solely in the hands of Syariah Court."...http://www.necf.org.my/newsmaster.cfm?&menuid=45&action=view&retrieveid=572
and google "Lina Joy" many articles can read...Hence lina joy MyKad is Islam , which effect her future marriage and children..Implication are wide.

Summary what we learn.
1.Non muslim wife cannot claim muslim husband body.Body give to Religious office.
2.Non muslim wife cannot inherit muslim husband properties.
3.Civil court / federal court /high court "has no remedy" against Syariah Court pending to islam affairs.
4. Constitution state Ethnic Malay=Muslim until death and forever.

---------------------
Any comments?Pls include...

CS Chua

28-12-2005, 07:16 PM

The Constitution gives all Malaysians the freedom of worship. Until and unless the government enforces the Constitution, it will only sounds good to the rest of the world but Malaysians from all walks of life will continue to suffer.

Jaytea

28-12-2005, 07:28 PM

in a custody battle, a husband can also convert to islam, declare the children as moslems and gain custody of the kids.
and the wife, as a non-moslem, has no remedy as the courts will not campur tangan in the syariah ruling.

sad, but that's life in m'sia.

orchipalar

28-12-2005, 08:21 PM

Err...in the TV3 news at 8pm awhile ago...sad to say...the high court had ruled without any possibility for any appeals that...the earlier ruling by the Syariah court is deemed as final... :o

bugbear

28-12-2005, 09:46 PM

I think it is time changes be implemented in this matter concerning the matter of faith. We are no longer living in the dark ages anymore and therefore the laws must also change likewise. With this current case, a dangerous precedent will be set in future cases if not rectified. Either way, the non-muslim in this country will have no voice at all and no avenue to remedy. This is indeed frightening. I fear for what this country is heading into.
Islam hadhari is meaningless if things like this is causing injustice all the time. Not only is the muslim women given the bad news but similarly the non-muslim too. Please pray for malaysia my friends.

kwchang

28-12-2005, 10:51 PM

joker2107

28-12-2005, 10:57 PM

Quote :
the high court had ruled without any possibility for any appeals
Unquote

if thats what d hc ruled, i'd most certainly want 2 know under which law did right to appeal stop at d high court.

deviating to our consti, Article 160:2 "Malay" means a person who professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, conforms to Malay custom ..." (reproduced from http://www.necf.org.my/newsmaster.cfm?&menuid=45&action=view&retrieveid=572)

r we speaking about ethnicity here or is this just a definition 4 a category of people who meet d given criteria? theres no way ethnicity can b changed - its guaranteed uopn birth (excuse those illegal exchange of babies). if d consti is equating ethnicity with religion here, then it must be tying itself up in a hangman's knot if d other end of d rope is d guarantee of freedom of religion.

3 situational posers here :

1. an ethnic malay practices a westernised way of life, perhaps due 2 influence of life abroad or marriage. or perhaps due 2 a life long schooling in a chinese school tis ethnic malay ends up, 4 obvious practicality, not habitually speaking d malay languange. religion aside, is tis ethnic malay a constitutional malay and does he/she lose his/her ethnic identity?

2. a chinese marries a malay, embraces d islamic faith, n after a dozen and more yrs studying in d national edu system speaks malay habitually. by reason of d marriage, tis person conforms 2 malay customs without reservations. does tis person lose his or her ethnic identity since he/she is consititutionally a malay?

3. an apostate ex-muslim malay legally loses his/her constitutional "malay" identity. does this mean he/she is no longer an ethnic malay?

i rest my case.

tempuadua

28-12-2005, 11:11 PM

Wednesday December 28, 2005

Widow has no remedy, counsel tells High Court

BY CHELSEA L.Y. NG

President of the Syariah Lawyers Association Mohamad Buruk later addressed the court, stating that there were provisions in Islamic laws for non-Muslims to appear in the Syariah Court but they were never invoked in the last 20 years.
As a Muslim, I am very sad to see that this case was not argued to the fullest in the High Court on the ground of technical reason (i.e. High Court cannot disturb Syariah Court's decision).
I hope this matter will be heard in the appeal court and provisions like the one mentioned by laywer Mohamad Buruk above will be fully argued.

orchipalar

28-12-2005, 11:19 PM

Err...what happens when a non-Muslim gets tangled in a Syariah offence with a Muslim...how ar?...where would he/she be tried...in the Syariah court?...might have happened before:confused:

USJ27Resident

29-12-2005, 12:10 AM

Err...what happens when a non-Muslim gets tangled in a Syariah offence with a Muslim...how ar?...where would he/she be tried...in the Syariah court?...might have happened before:confused:

In this case, example "khalwat".... the non-moslem fella gets off scot-free!! (seriously !! I no kid you.... ) whereas the moslem partner kena answer lorr in ther syariah court... a good friend of mine and his girlfriend kena "rush" in his apartment in Bukit Kiara....He panic at first, then he realised he not moslem, so the J.A.W.I. fellas could not do anything to him, but arrested his GF instead, for 'close proximity' b.k.a "khalwat" ... she kena fined and had to attend "moral classes" to avoid jail sentences...

My friend... he no more dating Moslem girls.... :p

cactuc1

29-12-2005, 12:40 AM

Non moslem cannot submit to syariah court..because "normally" non moslem testimony not allow in syariah court...

Anyhow , non moslem follow normal court ,civil/federal/high court..only islamic affairs are done in syariah court among the moslems.

silver_bird

29-12-2005, 10:04 AM

BBC World Service reports :-
A Malaysian mountaineering hero will be buried as a Muslim, against the wishes of his Hindu wife, who denied he had converted to Islam before his death.

The decision follows a High Court ruling that it cannot override the country's Islamic courts in matters of religious conversion.

An Islamic court had said the man, M Moorthy, had become a Muslim last year.

Lawyers say the case highlights problems faced by non-Muslims dealing with Malaysia's Islamic justice system.

"So much for good interracial relations," Haris Mohamad Ibrahim, a lawyer representing Malaysia's Bar Council, told The Associated Press.

"The judge has just told the widow and her family to go back and leave the body of their beloved to be buried by strangers."

Coma
M Moorthy, 36, was a Hindu when he became a national hero in 1997 as a member of the first Malaysian expedition to conquer Mount Everest.

But when he died a week ago family supporters and state Islamic officials jostled one another at the mortuary as each tried to claim his body.

An Islamic Sharia court subsequently upheld a claim by his former colleagues in the army that he had become a Muslim last year.

However his family, who want him to have a Hindu funeral, were not allowed to appear before the court to dispute his conversion because they are not Muslims.

The family went to the civil court and argued that Mr Moorthy was a practising Hindu right up to a recent accident when he fell from his wheelchair and lapsed into a coma.

They say he was even interviewed for local television two months ago about his preparations for the Hindu festival of Diwali.

But the High Court agreed with government lawyers who argued the civil court had no jurisdiction.

Lawyers for the dead man's relatives say the ruling leaves non-Muslims little protection in family disputes considered under Islamic law.

Most Malaysians are Muslim but the country's constitution guarantees freedom of worship for all.
__________________________________________________ ________

Comment :
Without looking at the rights or wrongs of any religions, is this fair or equitable at all? How can a person have no remedy under the secular law just because he is not a Muslim as the Syariah law over-rides even the rights of a non-Muslim? If that was the case, then the Constitution of Malaysia has made a mockery of itself as it cannot even protect the rights of it's citizens as it is suppose to do! Isn't Malaysia a signatory to the Declaration of Universal Human Rights?

This news has made it to the BBC and very soon, the rest of the international media will certainly focus their attention on this issue as Islam and Muslim matters are at present very saleable news worldwide. I will only hope and pray the Malaysian Government will be wise enough to come up with some law to protect the rights of non-Muslims in such situations. Pray with me on this!

pcyeoh

29-12-2005, 10:46 AM

An Islamic Sharia court subsequently upheld a claim by his former colleagues in the army that he had become a Muslim last year.
If this is the only evidence that the Syariah Court relied on, then it is very frightening. They need not show any documentary proof. Goodness gracious. This can also happen to me. I would suggest that all Muslim converts have their new found religion registered in their MyKad such that the dead man can have a decent burial and really rest in peace. In the case of M Moorthy when he should be resting in peace, he lies in the frozen chamber of the mortuary while his body is torned between total strangers and his grieving and loving family who had been faithfully taking care of him in his last hours of need. "Where were you all when I cared for him?" his wife cried out to the crowd when she went to claim her late husband's body at the General Hospital. I wonder what will happen to his soul now - another battle??

I sympathised very deeply with the poor wife and her only child to lose a husband and a father in their grieving hours. In my opinion, the Muslim community should have anticipated that such thing will happen and should have highlighted to our law maker to come up with something to avoid such situation that will be hitting the headlines worldwide.

VeeJay

29-12-2005, 11:22 AM

hmmm sigh! ...whats more to say?! No rights no justice :( :confused:

silver_bird

29-12-2005, 11:42 AM

BBC News as per thread above :-
http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=att&disp=inline&attid=0.1&th=108729b860ff8c93

mybill

29-12-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote" During the hearing, Justice Md Raus asked why Nasir, who represented HKL and the Government, did not produce forms relating to Moorthy’s alleged conversion to Islam.

Nasir did not reply but argued that the proper forum to adjudicate the matter was the Syariah High Court." UnQuote.

To put a muslim in a situation to decide anything that is going to against Islam is not going down well with all muslim. They will rather not decide or let someone to decide.

The same situation applied when someone try to apply licenses for dog, to build church, or anything that Islam is uncomfortable.

I hope someone still has little sense out there help this poor widow.

bobkee

29-12-2005, 12:07 PM

From what I see in the news, that man converted to Islam. As Malaysians we have to understand the Federal Constitution. As Judges of the Civil court, the judges know the law (just in case some of you thought otherwise). Hence there should not be any question.

Once people understand the constitution, this situation should not have arisen. Converting to Islam in Malaysia is a responsible act, not for convenience as there is no reversal. No need to harp on human rights because these are our local laws, not universal laws.
I beg to differ Chang. If a law is a bad law, we have the moral obligation to speak up against it. I don't blame the High Court for this .. like you said, the law is the law .. and under the law, they have no jurisdiction. But I do feel very strongly that this is a very bad law and goes counter to all notions of natural justice and yes .. the basic dignity of all human beings to be treated with equality and fairness .. that IS universal .. local laws irregardless.

I'd like to hold those MPs who voted for the amendments in Art 121.1(a) of the Constitution accountable for this mess. The Federal Constitution is too important and fundamental a document to be left in the hands of politicians. We, as citizens, must regain sovereignty over this basic and fundamental law .. I'd like to see the day when NO AMENDMENTS can be made to the Constitution WITHOUT A REFERENDUM. If they want to amend it so much, they bloody better come down to the ground and tell us, the people, why the heck it's so important to amend and LET US DECIDE.

orchipalar

29-12-2005, 12:55 PM

Err...Orchi wonders now whether or not...a non-Muslim(example here,...the late M Moorthy's non-Muslim wife n relatives) is allowed to visit or attend to the grave of a Muslim relative(or does Islam denounce even the blood relations of the deceased from another ethic n religious faith?)...?? :confused:

Ahem...Orchi better starts asking own younger Muslim bro...

orchipalar

29-12-2005, 01:04 PM

Err...Orchi heard the wife n his children were NOT allowed to even touch the husband/father's body at the mortuary...a Syariah court order was issued to bar any entry by the non-Muslim family members...to the Muslim burial site...are those true? :confused:

penangkia

29-12-2005, 01:56 PM

I think this case is not the first of it's kind. There were others before Moorthy if I remember correctly. The gormen and the judiciary better get this sorted out right, proper and fair asap, like the next sitting of parliament. As it is, this law ( if this really is the LAW) or any other laws that deny one grieved party any avenue to challenge or argue his/her case is in violation of the norms of civil fairness.

I shudder to think what would happen if this man was a multi-millionaire and left behind a dozen surviving family members to feed who are not muslims.

What now? Who gets the pension, his savings, his posessions, his.....

In a secular country, does'nt the highest court in the land rule supreme over all other courts, religious or otherwise? If not, why not? esp. in a case involving two different faiths.

Another international news for tak bolehland for another wrong reason.

bobkee

29-12-2005, 02:10 PM

OK .. my bad .. Article 121.1(a) doesn't specify that the High Court has no jurisdiction over Syariah.

What it does say is :

Subject to Clause (2) the judicial power of the Federation shall be vested into High Courts of co- ordinate jurisdiction and status, namely-
one of the States of Malaya, which shall be known as the High Court in Malaya and shall have its principle registry in Kuala Lumpur;Clause 2 defines the role and jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. So this was essentially an interpretation by the presiding judge, who chose the safe route and upheld a previous precedent that was made, if I am not mistaken, in the High Court too that the High Court has no jurisdiction over Syariah courts.

This wasn't always the case as I remember a High Court case in the past where the court declared a person who had converted out of Islam to be a Non-Muslim on the basis of a statutory declaration and the Syariah Court's jurisdiction over him was unconstitutional.

So, the blame goes back to the judge and his lack of wisdom and courage.

Nonetheless, I stand on my contention that the Constitution should be given back to the people.

I beg to differ Chang. If a law is a bad law, we have the moral obligation to speak up against it. I don't blame the High Court for this .. like you said, the law is the law .. and under the law, they have no jurisdiction. But I do feel very strongly that this is a very bad law and goes counter to all notions of natural justice and yes .. the basic dignity of all human beings to be treated with equality and fairness .. that IS universal .. local laws irregardless.

I'd like to hold those MPs who voted for the amendments in Art 121.1(a) of the Constitution accountable for this mess. The Federal Constitution is too important and fundamental a document to be left in the hands of politicians. We, as citizens, must regain sovereignty over this basic and fundamental law .. I'd like to see the day when NO AMENDMENTS can be made to the Constitution WITHOUT A REFERENDUM. If they want to amend it so much, they bloody better come down to the ground and tell us, the people, why the heck it's so important to amend and LET US DECIDE.

ksj_cool

29-12-2005, 02:15 PM

This case brings to my memory, the story a friend of mine told me. His father was a Muslim and his mother was a non-muslim (don't know whether she converted upon marriage) and they lived in the estate. The father was a estate manager and lived more like a non than one. They never went to a mosque but were brought up more like Hindus as the people in the estate were mostly Hindus. When the father passed away, the family was making preparation to bury him when the authorities came and took the body away. Since then one of the brothers has denounced his religion by going the court.

bobkee

29-12-2005, 02:37 PM

And of course it has come to my attention again that the copy of the Federal Constitution that I have is outdated :P .. so a clause might have been added to remove the jurisdiction of the civil courts from the Syariah legal system.

tempuadua

29-12-2005, 04:06 PM

orchipalar

29-12-2005, 04:28 PM

Orchi, in so far as i know, there is no such laws/regulations/customs prohibiting non-muslim to touch the body of a deceased muslim before the body is bathed. Once bathed and covered, only muslim family members are allowed to touch the face.Thank you dear Tempuadua:)...that gives a better awareness for Orchi n family...

So from now...while younger bro...n families are able to give consent to it...Orchi better offer them with double more of affections...hugs n kisses...:)

KH EE

29-12-2005, 04:45 PM

moorty's bro, per rtm1 news @ 130am this morn, is also a convert. so he may receive 75percent of moorty's estate. hope he'll pass it to moorty's wife.

pcyeoh

29-12-2005, 04:57 PM

Moorthy's Case: Family not giving up on legal redress
JOTHI JEYASINGAM and ADIE SURI ZULKEFLLI
The Malay Mail
KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 29:

Although Everest climber M. Moorthy was buried in a Muslim cemetery yesterday, his family has not given up hope of seeking legal redress.

The High Court ruled yesterday morning that the civil courts have no jurisdiction on the conversion of someone to Islam.

Following the ruling, Moorthy’s body was claimed by officials from the Federal Territory Religious Department (Jawi) at the Kuala Lumpur Hospital (KLH) mortuary where his body had been kept since he died last Tuesday.

After prayers, the former army commando was buried at the Taman Ibukota Muslim cemetery in Setapak.

Among the scores of people at the funeral was Moorthy’s eldest brother, Muhd Hussein Abdullah, 48, who converted to Islam in 1981. The resident of Sandakan, Sabah, was accompanied by a teenage son.

Muhd Hussein, who is the second child in the family of six children, said he hoped his brother’s family would accept the court’s decision.

“There is no point taking the case any further. It is the end of the story.”

Counsel M. Manoharan, who represented Moorthy’s widow, S. Kaliammal, said the issue would be pursued at the Appellate court.

He said if the court ruled in their favour, Moorthy’s body would be exhumed and cremated according to Hindu rites.

A notice of appeal was filed at the High Court registry yesterday afternoon.

In his decision, Justice Datuk Md Raus Sharif of the Appellate and Special Powers division of the High Court, said: “This court cannot review the decision of the Syariah Court and has no power to intervene.”

Last Thursday, the Syariah court ruled that Mohamad Abdullah @ M. Moorthy was a Muslim.

Yesterday morning, the courtroom was packed with Moorthy’s family members. As Md Raus delivered his decision, several female family members seated next to Kaliammal, 31, wept.

The widow, however, remained composed throughout proceedings and displayed no sign of emotion after it became clear that her husband’s body would not be given over to her.

The atmosphere was tensed when it became evident that Md Raus was not going to grant Manoharan’s application for an order preventing Jawi from claiming Moorthy’s body until after the appeal is heard.

In objecting to Manoharan’s application, Senior Federal Counsel Hassan Abdul Rahman said the High Court had no jurisdiction to grant an order of such nature.

Md Raus said the High Court had no status quo to grant such an order, but counsel could proceed with the appeal.

After the court was adjourned at 10.50am, Kaliammal was seen conferring with counsel A. Sivanesan and Manoharan.

Shortly after, Manoharan told the Press that Kaliammal had not given up yet.

“She has not lost the battle. We will appeal. As far as she is concerned, anybody can take the body, but her husband’s soul is still with her.”
Of all the declarations sought by Kaliammal yesterday, only one was granted — that she is the lawful wife of Moorthy.

Among the declarations sought by Kaliammal in her originating summons filed last Wednesday is that her husband was a Hindu, having practised the religion and followed its culture; that Moorthy was not a Muslim, and that all documents pertaining to his conversion were null and void.

Moorthy died at 11.10am on Dec 20 at KLH’s Intensive Care Unit after he was transferred there from the neuro ward when he had difficulty breathing.

He was paralysed after a fall while training at the Sungai Udang army camp in Malacca on Aug 14, 1998.

Moorthy was part of a 20-member team that helped M. Magendran and N. Mohanadas to plant the Malaysian flag for the first time on the world's highest peak on May 23, 1997. Moorthy was awarded the Ahli Darjah Kinabalu for his feat.

http://www.mmail.com.my/Current_News/MM/Thursday/National/20051229103344/Article/index_html

bugbear

29-12-2005, 05:00 PM

hi all, I would like to give you a poser here. It is a very real and very scary scenary. What happen when some people that you hurt want to kena you later on by registrating you as a muslim convert without your knowledge. :p

One day when you suddenly kick the bucket, your family will not be able to bury you!!!!!! :eek:

Murphy's law: If there is a chance for something to go wrong then it can go wrong.

pcyeoh

29-12-2005, 05:03 PM

If this is the only evidence that the Syariah Court relied on, then it is very frightening. They need not show any documentary proof. Goodness gracious. This can also happen to me.
This exactly what I was saying. I went into details but decided to self censureship before Big Brother comes after me for defamation.

The situation is worst than what you think. All your property will go up in smoke. Or you should be thankful to them if they give you back 50% of what in anycase was not theirs in the first place just like what they did to the Chinese woman and her family in a similar case just a couple of months back. This also they did it after a lot of hue and cry of unfairness. Where is justice?

KH EE

29-12-2005, 05:13 PM

since moorty's bro is also a convert, he'll get a big chunk with 25percent going to baitumal. like i posted earlier, hope he'll pass it to moorty's wife

bugbear

29-12-2005, 05:20 PM

since moorty's bro is also a convert, he'll get a big chunk with 25percent going to baitumal. like i posted earlier, hope he'll pass it to moorty's wife

That is a big IF my man. Knowing how some family matters are run, I am not surprise if he just pocket them for himself after all the syariah court said so. Who can challenge him? Moothy's wife? She won't have any money to pay any lawyer. Perhaps TV3 can run her plight on TV? She would need to fend for her family without any help unless MIC got any balls left.

uchangeng

29-12-2005, 05:21 PM

the zealot win one, but thousands upon thousands will be scared away!

KH EE

29-12-2005, 05:28 PM

Who can challenge him?

yes, there's NO remedy! wonder if his bro converted 1st or did moorty...???

bugbear

29-12-2005, 05:32 PM

yes, there's NO remedy! wonder if his bro converted 1st or did moorty...???

His bro converted in 1981. But he still stand to gain. That is why he makes a big show of showing up at the funeral all the way from Sandakan. ;)

dragonfly

29-12-2005, 07:24 PM

If I remember correctly, childrens of a muslim man who converts, who are under 18, automatically become muslims. As for the wife, she has the choice of converting or divorce.

orchipalar

29-12-2005, 08:20 PM

Orchi, in so far as i know, there is no such laws/regulations/customs prohibiting non-muslim to touch the body of a deceased muslim before the body is bathed. Once bathed and covered, only muslim family members are allowed to touch the face.Err...dear Tempuadua:)...how about non-Muslims wishing to visit or attend to the grave of loved ones at the Muslim burial sites...are those allowed? :)

orchipalar

29-12-2005, 08:23 PM

Err...a reader of Mack's Brand Malaysia blog...has an excellent write up to this issue... (http://www.brandmalaysia.com/movabletype/archives/2005/12/readers_point_o_1.html#more) :)

lvintan1

29-12-2005, 08:33 PM

The wife know him better and the court should respect the family.

Dr. J George

29-12-2005, 10:37 PM

SOME PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHEN TO SHUT UP!

Yes I am serious!

They talk and give their comments on everything as if they are the experts on all things and the rest of us are indeed fools or simply stupid?

Who am I taking about....?

I am seriously pissed off with the comments by a certain Suhakam commissioner today, advising rather insensitively, that the late M Moorthy’s family should cease legal action to challenge the controversial Syariah Court decision that the Mount Everest hero had died a Muslim!

This fella adds on saying –

“We must understand and respect the law of the nation. As far as religion is concerned, Islam is the official religion and the highest authority is the Syariah Court”.

Hello Mr. Commissioner - no one in his right mind will challenge that but that is not the issue, my man!

He carries on saying - “Since the matter has been decided, I think all parties should forget about this and to get together (instead) - all problems of Malaysians should be settled through negotiations”

What utter rubbish!

Negotiations?

Again, what rubbish is he talking!

Here we are not talking about some “collective agreement” Mr. Suhakam Commissioner!

It is about a simple fundamental right of a person or persons and their family to be shown evidence (if any) of claims made and in this case, that there was indeed a conversion!

If indeed there was and there was irrefutable evidence/proof, so be it – ‘habis cerita’ (end of story!)

It is about having a legal remedy and the rights of a Malaysian as enshrined in the country's Federal Constitution!

And for his advice to the family to bring the matter to the commission – only a fool or an absolute idiot will do so now after such comments from a member of the said outfit! :rolleyes:

Anyway - Malaysia is in the international news again - for the wrong reasons!

Just watch BBC! ;)

uchangeng

30-12-2005, 09:04 AM

Having a husband died in coma is painful enough, not having the right to his body is unbearable. However, under the glare of the public eyes, millions over the world will be turn off, scared and even develope phobia on a religion that has zero tolerance to even a widow's grief!

To those earthly men who have claimed to be God's proxy, acted in manners that have added to the grief of the widow, may I ask where is the mercy of God?

Rocky19

30-12-2005, 12:15 PM

I'd like to hold those MPs who voted for the amendments in Art 121.1(a) of the Constitution accountable for this mess. The Federal Constitution is too important and fundamental a document to be left in the hands of politicians. We, as citizens, must regain sovereignty over this basic and fundamental law .. I'd like to see the day when NO AMENDMENTS can be made to the Constitution WITHOUT A REFERENDUM. If they want to amend it so much, they bloody better come down to the ground and tell us, the people, why the heck it's so important to amend and LET US DECIDE.
Bobkee,

I think this is the best method. Our MPs can't be trusted to do the right thing as we can see what they did with the Family law which has a great impact to a muslim women.The best part as it is , mpost muslim men don't hold up to their responsibility after the divorce in terms of maintenance etc.I'm not sure what they do other than trample on people's rights. With 92% it gets even worse.And the referendum should require 80% approval to pass.

Our High courts need to be clear on the case in front of them. In this case, the proof of conversion needs to be admited as there are forms you must have signed and Perkim usually issues you a card saying you are a Muslim.You must also go for a test at JAWI if in KL and they will give you another card that is official.Change in ID is not compulsory as far as I know.

But the case of the lady whose husband converted and converted his children without her knowing. That was bad and the judgement passed by the High Court was fuzzy. She had to run. Why? the court was not fair to her, not cos the judgement was against her but it was not seen fair at all.

Chang,

There is reversal and it has been done before.I know of one person who has done it and it is best you do it quietly as mentioned by a PAS leader once in an interview sometime ago. It is easier if you are a convert. If you are a Malay, it is almost impossible although the constitution is very clear on the right of Malaysians on them making a choice as far as religion is concerned.

AllUrban

30-12-2005, 05:55 PM

This whole issue is very disappointing.

I am by no means a "progressive" Muslim...I'm just a muslim, brought up in Canada by "religious" muslim parents...maybe I've been influenced by being brought up in Canada...but I dont think that Islamic teachings should be interpreted in a way that is so rigid and uncaring. Why doensnt anyone try to compromise these days?

I remember that even 20 years ago in Canada, it was hard for a muslim woman to go to the masjid and pray, because there was no space allocated for women. Many men were not willing (or able) to accept a woman with independence and determination, and full awareness of her rights under Islamic law.

My mum quietly stood up for women's rights in our muslim community in Toronto, Canada. She dealt with ignorant men of all faiths with grace and stubborn determination, and helped educate hundreds of women about Islam and their role in their community. She is an educated woman and a teacher and she wears a hijab (tudung) covering her hair. For 20 years nothing has slowed her down except her arthritis.

I came to malaysia thinking that this country was a positive example among other muslim countries.

Was I mistaken? I cannot really answer that question...but I know one thing...they better not allow my mum to come to Malaysia, or there will be a revolution among the Muslim women :D

joker2107

30-12-2005, 10:59 PM

bravo, djg. cant agree more that some people park their brawns at d wrong place when "situations" (or is it sensitivities) favours them.

honestly, how many of u legal professionals agree with d hc ruling? i m of d opinion that d syariah court has no right to declare one's religion. yr religion and mine r fundamental civil rights guaranteed under our constitution. s a civil right, it must b a civil court which hears arguments on wat religion a person embraces. whether or not 1 embraces islam is not a religious issue n thus cannot b under d jurisdiction of d syariah court. d syariah court can only come in2 d pic after d civil courts conclude that d subject is indeed a muslim.

btw, theres also another thingy all u concerned souls here ought 2 b aware of. there's such a thing s teachings of islam and theres such another thing called practice of islam. d latter may b based on d former, but just as in other religions, christianity included (celebrate priests n rosaries r non existent in d bible), not all practices r decreed by d holy books. 4 eg i believe that there is (or was?) a premier of a middle east islamic nation marrying a non-muslim kwailo. my humble opinion says that excesses tend 2 b more prominent when politics hv a major role in d design.

isarahim

30-12-2005, 11:07 PM

If you are a Malay, it is almost impossible although the constitution is very clear on the right of Malaysians on them making a choice as far as religion is concerned.

In addition, Islam itself is perfectly clear on this point as well. Any compulsion in religion is unislamic.

isarahim

30-12-2005, 11:11 PM

I am by no means a "progressive" Muslim...I'm just a muslim, brought up in Canada by "religious" muslim parents...maybe I've been influenced by being brought up in Canada...but I dont think that Islamic teachings should be interpreted in a way that is so rigid and uncaring. Why doensnt anyone try to compromise these days?

You have my profound understanding.

Isn't it ironic that one often get this feeling that common law countries like Canada and the UK are more Muslim than Malaysia?

tupai

31-12-2005, 12:35 AM

y...a Syariah court order was issued to bar any entry by the non-Muslim family members...to the Muslim burial site...are those true? :confused:

Unless its related to this particular case, its not true.

When Hendon passed away, many non-muslims went to pay respect and they were at tent next to the grave site...TV channels covered the event live and i saw many bakuteh, beer drinking, casino addict, galavanting, immoral non-muslim yellow ivory, pinky white, midnight black, dark choc brown and polka dotted friends there. :p

Yang Amat Berkonfius tupai :confused:

bobkee

31-12-2005, 02:12 AM

Interestingly, the PAS hardliners came up with a pretty interesting and reconciliatory statement on this matter at :

http://www.harakahdaily.net/article.php?sid=17297

Rocky19

31-12-2005, 03:36 AM

In addition, Islam itself is perfectly clear on this point as well. Any compulsion in religion is unislamic.
True. But in Malaysia we try to outdo others in being more Islamic with many over-zealous officials who at times are not being fair to fellow muslims.They believe that by forcing it down the throat they are doing justice to a beautiful religion.

In this case the ex-parte case was uncalled for by JAWI. yes it is nice to hear what PAS has to say.But it not clear which they want to be supreme in this country, The syariah courts or the civil courts based on the harakah write up.They still stand by the hudud laws and only want one court in the country, syariah and have not heard that they have changed that stand. Have they?And the call for police to control the situation etc is that called for?has there been any trouble? They want the police to go after those who make fitnah.Wow. Our police really have a lot time while snatch thieves are killing people in the process of snatching the bags.Where are the police?

bobkee

31-12-2005, 04:44 AM

Hehe .. that's called "saying a lot about nothing" ;) .. a politician's prerogative LOL

isarahim

31-12-2005, 03:00 PM

True. But in Malaysia we try to outdo others in being more Islamic with many over-zealous officials who at times are not being fair to fellow muslims.
If it only was a matter of over-zealousness and outdoing, it would be relatively easy to deal with. It's about 'going astray from' rather than 'outdo'. The problem is, unfortunately, that Islam is, de facto, secondary to policial power games and often "moulded" to fit various agendas.

There are a number of elements in Malaysian law, constitution and enforcement which are outright unislamic. Some of them came into force before independence but have been kept. Others have been added after independence.

But the domestic ulama's are ignoring it, since they are political appointees as well, and often misleadingly telling people otherwise and hence confusing people's understanding of Islam.

Unfortunately Malays at large are very vulnerable to such machinations. We are told and inculcated from childhood that religious authorities have better understanding about Islam than normal people because they've studied the Qu'ran and the Hadith much more.

yes it is nice to hear what PAS has to say.But it not clear which they want to be supreme in this country, The syariah courts or the civil courts based on the harakah write up.They still stand by the hudud laws and only want one court in the country, syariah and have not heard that they have changed that stand.
The day we are allowed to grow a credible, moderate and ideology-based opposition in this country, may it be liberal or social-democrat, PAS will be reduced to insignificance. The problem is that since no such opposition movement are getting any air-play or media-play, the PAS is allowed significance completely out of proportion.

CS Chua

31-12-2005, 05:05 PM

The day we are allowed to grow a credible, moderate and ideology-based opposition in this country, may it be liberal or social-democrat, PAS will be reduced to insignificance. The problem is that since no such opposition movement are getting any air-play or media-play, the PAS is allowed significance completely out of proportion.

Isarahim, I agree with you. But what will it take before this can happen? I am dissapointed that Keadilan has not been able to fill that gap. I think they are the party with the right composition, values and system but they are not making headways with the non-Malays because they keep kow-towing to PAS. Why can't they form another front without PAS? It is time for a two-party system in Malaysia. The current situation is a result of a government being too long in power. They have lost touch with the people, grown arrogant and are too corrupted to carry out their own policies. So sad but true.