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fjdemang
28-11-2005, 04:40 PM
I may be wrong here guys but it seems that the gomen DownUnder is practising double standard between Nguyen Tuong Van and Michelle Leslie's case.

You see, Nguyen was caught for transporting drugs and now the Ozzie gomen cannot plead the Singapore gomen to turn it from hanging into a life sentence.

On the other hand, Leslie was arrested in Bali after police found two ecstasy tablets in her handbag outside a Kuta dance party. She was convicted and sentenced to three months' jail but released because she had already served that time while awaiting trial.

So, what is strange about this picture?

Nguyen is stuck because he is not a Caucasian with no money.

Leslie was released because she has a figure to die for and has "bought" her freedom.

Maybe, the Ozzie gomen knew they cannot bribe the Sing Gomen unlike the Indon gomen. It's too obvious to me.

Different stroke for different folks.....

Ski
28-11-2005, 06:59 PM
The lesson here is you dont muck about with the laws of Singapore there is no way you can buy them over, so dont play play.

tupai
28-11-2005, 10:42 PM
The lesson here is you dont muck about with the laws of Singapore there is no way you can buy them over, so dont play play.

yes, don't play play. they are tough in spore, batam and some say JB too :p

I don't know about morality in cap punishment esp. death by hanging but i know that when i bodoh enufff to play with fire i get burn teruk...fact of life.
Still methink its a waste of a young life....wat2do?

Yang Amat Blur lato tupai

p/s in case u r not aware, allegedly vietnamese gangs in Oz are now in control of drugs in almost all metros, along side the middle-east & african folks. I have yet to see any g-string, scantily clad eye candies pushing any 'hot' items for sale. ;)

layman
29-11-2005, 03:35 PM
the aussies are true blue blooded hypocrites

on 1 hand condoned the death penatlty meted out to the indonesian terrorists which bombed bali

on the other hand its a gross violation of human dignity for an aussie who will face the death penalty penalised for drug trafficking

maybe the aussie should be the judge and jury and the hangman noose as well

Ski
29-11-2005, 05:12 PM
Bangkok Post reported this.


Australia begs Singapore for Nguyen to have a last cuddle

Death-row drug trafficker Nguyen Tuong Van should be allowed a last cuddle with his mother before being put to death on December 2 at Singapore's Changi prison, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said Tuesday.
"I would have thought it's not an unreasonable thing for a mother to hug her son before the son is executed,'' Downer said. ``I've made it clear to the (Australian) High Commissioner that he should tell the Singapore government that I am personally very exercised about this.''

Kim Nguyen, who is allowed daily visits before the execution at dawn on Friday, is separated by glass from her son.

The foreign minister also criticized Singaporean hangman Darshan Singh for boasting of his prowess in using the rope to take lives.

``I think the executioner should keep his thoughts and his ideas to himself,'' Downer said. ``It's a grisly job to be an executioner and I think executing people is wrong.''

Downer said all legal avenues to halt the execution had been exhausted and he fully expected the body of Nguyen to be delivered to his family on Friday for repatriation to Australia.

Sad indeed sad, thats Singapore for you a country that loves to cane also.

Voter
29-11-2005, 06:29 PM
May be the Aussies can invoke pre-emptive strike to rescue her citizen who has by her drug pushing action may indirectly cause many to be adicted and die a slow death. Hyprocrites, you aussies!

uchangeng
30-11-2005, 09:30 AM
the 400g of heroin found in possession with the Vietnamese OZ would have claimed more innocent lives than the OZ government could imagine. The damage inflicted upon humanity, as a whole, would be just as devastated as a terorist act, only bloodless! The S'porean government therefore, has the right to execute the perpetrator.

Not too long ago, another Chinese American youth was caned by a S'porean court, that ignited an uproar from among the American public.

While another pretty OZ Muslim could have bought her freedom from the Indon as claimed in the OZ press, not surprised a wee bit, the same is almost impossible in S'pore, the top among the Asian country as far as a clean government is concerned. Of course, her muslim faith outlook helps.

penangkia
30-11-2005, 10:03 AM
They send troops to Iraq when kena conned by the US that Iraq has WMD. Don't they reliase that dangerous street drugs are one of the worst kinds of WMD.

Go study the Boxer Rebellion of China, Mr. Downer.

yokeimm
30-11-2005, 10:19 AM
every person who travels into singapore (& malaysia) would have been warned abt the penalty for drug trafficking. regardless the reason behind the act in the fist place, if one is caught one has to pay the price. although i am ambivalent abt capital punishment, however in this instance, the man has been warned. Traffickers be warned and all that. there should not be double standards in punishing convicted drug traffickers.

Ski
30-11-2005, 10:26 AM
I dont know how far this true but the Vietnamese are the no 1 pusher of drugs and other vices in Oz and are found pushing in most railway stations.

Ski
02-12-2005, 12:58 PM
Thats it, Singapore kept to its word.

Nguyen Tuong Van, 25, of Vietnamese descent, was hanged at Changi prison despite repeated pleas for clemency from Canberra.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4487366.stm

gtl
02-12-2005, 01:33 PM
cheers to singapore for not backing down..........drug pushers are murderers. they shd be punish with death for their crime.

USJ27Resident
02-12-2005, 04:02 PM
I dont know how far this true but the Vietnamese are the no 1 pusher of drugs and other vices in Oz ..........

Thats generalising and not nice...

There are also hardworking Vietnamese all over the world too...

fedup
02-12-2005, 06:03 PM
if all those who post here had been to Australia they will know though they don't condone drug usage but they do care for human lives. What did the aust govt do wrong? what did our govt do when two young m'sians were detained in indonesia? spent their time in jail until their employers went to the press and only then did the dpm interfered. good luck to all those who condemn the aussie govt but have never visited the country. Malaysia Boleh diehard :p :p :p remeber Indonesia is another islamic country & if you convert ofcourse you can expect bias treatment. I salute the S'pore govt but then not necessary support them. All the drug couriers know the penalty for carry drugs yet they choose to take the risk so they must face the consequences of their action. Are you trrying to say that we should allow those caught with drugs to get scot free just b'cos their govt appeal . Remember the poor chinaman who was bashed up by the 4 Arabs just b'cos one of their kind mistaken him for the rapist. Fined 400 if i remeber well but the poor lorry driver was fined 2000 for showing bad sign to a policeman.don't expect fairness but don't throw stones when you are living in glass houses. MALAYSIA BOLEH MALAYSIA BOLEH MALAYSIA BOLEH :( :(

kwchang
02-12-2005, 07:55 PM
Just remember that if you are a foreigner, you have to fill in a disembarkation card on arrival to Malaysia or Singapore and boldly printed in RED is the statement that says the death penalty is given to those found in possession of illicit drugs. Hence fair warning is always given. Ignorance is not bliss.

I believe he carried enough drugs to sell to a lot of addicts. Hence he is a purveyor of death. Laws of the land must be respected. I do not agree to this death sentence but I believe we need to respect S'pore's decision.

layman
02-12-2005, 08:00 PM
if all those who post here had been to Australia they will know though they don't condone drug usage but they do care for human lives. What did the aust govt do wrong? what did our govt do when two young m'sians were detained in indonesia? spent their time in jail until their employers went to the press and only then did the dpm interfered. good luck to all those who condemn the aussie govt but have never visited the country. Malaysia Boleh diehard :p :p :p remeber Indonesia is another islamic country & if you convert ofcourse you can expect bias treatment. I salute the S'pore govt but then not necessary support them. All the drug couriers know the penalty for carry drugs yet they choose to take the risk so they must face the consequences of their action. Are you trrying to say that we should allow those caught with drugs to get scot free just b'cos their govt appeal . Remember the poor chinaman who was bashed up by the 4 Arabs just b'cos one of their kind mistaken him for the rapist. Fined 400 if i remeber well but the poor lorry driver was fined 2000 for showing bad sign to a policeman.don't expect fairness but don't throw stones when you are living in glass houses. MALAYSIA BOLEH MALAYSIA BOLEH MALAYSIA BOLEH :( :(


which country in this world does not frowned upon drug/substance abuse?

the issue is the hypocritical stand of the aussie government in condemning the execution of a criminal convicted by a court in singapore and the apparent 'approval' and stealth connivance in the death sentence of the indonesian terrorists.the PM openly mentioned that the rule of the land in which the heinous crime was committed should prevailed!!!

if the policy of the current aussie government is against the death penalty,perhaps they should be magnaminious in asking for a commution of the death sentence handed down to the perpertrators of the bali bombings and be consisitent in their vilification of any capital punishment in any land.

however this is not their stand and their selective crucification of countries who hang aussie citizens smacks of true hypocrisy

uchangeng
03-12-2005, 10:41 AM
The OZ government should instead give a thousand thanks to the S'porean for helping them get rid of the one pusher they have been incapable of putting away.

Let someone else do the dirty work and the OZ remain a dignified government, defender of the human right, nevermind millions die each year of drug abuse!

CS Chua
03-12-2005, 11:22 AM
I think a lot of you let your emotion take control. Just because the Aussie government pleaded for its citizen to be spared the death penalty, it does not mean that they are championing drug abuse and wanting to see others die. There is no relevance between these 2 points. Drug abuse is bad and all who contribute to it must be punished. Period. It is how they are punished that is the moot point here. Just because the Aussies have a different opinion on how they should be punished does not mean they are not against drug abuse. They are.

So stop condemning a government which is just trying to be humanitarian. Frankly speaking, if I am in trouble overseas, I will rather be an Aussie citizen than a Malaysian. Past episodes of other unfortunate Malaysians tell me that the calvary will not be coming in any forms.

BTW, I am against the death penalty because it has not proven to be effective and I am against taking human life. I will rather that they be sentenced to hard labour for life.

kotontech
05-12-2005, 10:20 PM
I would to add a few words to this topic. My views are similar to that of CS Chua and I think some of you guys are just bend on attacking the aussie gov which in my opinion is doing the job as required of any elected government, ie to protect it's citizens. In a democratic society like australia,anything less esp when one of it's own is about to be hanged would amount to political suicide of the gov in place. In fact until today they are calls that John Howard's gov has not done enough. Nobody over here denies the severity (equivalent to 26,000 shots) of the offence, it's the issue on whether capital punishment is justified in these modern time and day. Rightly as pointed out, the aussie gov is rather ambigious on this, death for amorosi while condemning Nguyen Tuong Van hanging. This issue continues to be criticized and debated here by the aussie media hence the beauty of a 'free' media / society. The media is here are not controlled by any political organisations unlike in Malaysia and I find the reporting unbaised and open. In this instance, a lot of issues were raised both by the supporters and opponents to Nguyen fate.

In regard to fdjemang (racial??) accusation of 'saving' michele leslie and not nguyen, what I gather from the daily news is more help was given to Nguyen than that of Michele. Even Michele's legal team accused the gov of not helping enough to secure her release. Hence the issue of asian vs white should not have been rasied. Would the Malaysian gov go to the distance to save one of it's own?

kotontech
05-12-2005, 10:40 PM
Thought you guys may find the following article interesting, as view from another perspective on how aussie see themselves.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/life-is-cheap-with-our-own-heroin-chic/2005/12/04/1133631143030.html

isarahim
06-12-2005, 10:24 PM
the issue is the hypocritical stand of the aussie government in condemning the execution of a criminal convicted by a court in singapore and the apparent 'approval' and stealth connivance in the death sentence of the indonesian terrorists.

I don't see any hypocrisy in this whatsoever.

You cannot equate drug abuse with mass murder.

chewps
07-12-2005, 10:05 AM
what i see, drug traffic = mass murder

fjdemang
07-12-2005, 10:08 AM
I would to add a few words to this topic. My views are similar to that of CS Chua and I think some of you guys are just bend on attacking the aussie gov which in my opinion is doing the job as required of any elected government, ie to protect it's citizens. In a democratic society like australia,anything less esp when one of it's own is about to be hanged would amount to political suicide of the gov in place. In fact until today they are calls that John Howard's gov has not done enough. Nobody over here denies the severity (equivalent to 26,000 shots) of the offence, it's the issue on whether capital punishment is justified in these modern time and day. Rightly as pointed out, the aussie gov is rather ambigious on this, death for amorosi while condemning Nguyen Tuong Van hanging. This issue continues to be criticized and debated here by the aussie media hence the beauty of a 'free' media / society. The media is here are not controlled by any political organisations unlike in Malaysia and I find the reporting unbaised and open. In this instance, a lot of issues were raised both by the supporters and opponents to Nguyen fate.

In regard to fdjemang (racial??) accusation of 'saving' michele leslie and not nguyen, what I gather from the daily news is more help was given to Nguyen than that of Michele. Even Michele's legal team accused the gov of not helping enough to secure her release. Hence the issue of asian vs white should not have been rasied. Would the Malaysian gov go to the distance to save one of it's own?

Mate, i understand if you are being agro over my comment. My point is the media from both sides of the continent is being airy fairy over the issue and it is bonzer you step forward and give a dinkum view from downunder.

'Is capital punishment is justified in these modern time and day?'

Singapore is one of the 74 other countries and territories retain and use the death penalty, but the number of countries which actually execute prisoners in any one year is much smaller. Other countries are Egypt, Iran, Japan, Jordan and Pakistan)

The death penalty is morally just. When a person commits murder (example here is drug possession), the only appropriate way for a criminal justice system to respond is to demonstrate the outrage of society. The sacredness of human life must be reinforced. If outrage for each murder is not conveyed, the value of life is cheapened. Maybe your view will be different if this Nguyen guy was punished for act of terrorism that caused civilian's death in Singapore.

Capital trials require a thorough and deliberative process. Capital trials are split into two distinct phases. In the first phase must decide that the accused is guilty. In the second phase the judge weigh mitigating (sympathetic arguments for the offender) and aggravating (unfavorable arguments about the crime and offender) circumstances, then pronounce the sentence they feel is best suited for the convict. Convicts have ample opportunities to argue for merciful sentences. Moreover, appeals are automatic.

Capital punishment eliminates the threat of the convict again. The death penalty permanently incapacitates the convict.

Would the Malaysian gov go to the distance to save one of it's own?

I am dead cert that the answer is Yes. The gomen will give it heaps to save its own.

Don't mean to bag the OZ gomen. Hooroo.

lilifjp
07-12-2005, 11:52 AM
Yes. I also agree. Drug pusher = mass murder. We should hang all these people. No point putting them in jail, tax payer's money wasted. Years later, after they are released from jail, they will push drugs again. In my opinion, all drug pusher regardless of which country they are from, should be punished via death sentence.

kotontech
07-12-2005, 12:52 PM
Quote :'Capital trials require a thorough and deliberative process. Capital trials are split into two distinct phases. In the first phase must decide that the accused is guilty. In the second phase the judge weigh mitigating (sympathetic arguments for the offender) and aggravating (unfavorable arguments about the crime and offender) circumstances, then pronounce the sentence they feel is best suited for the convict. Convicts have ample opportunities to argue for merciful sentences. Moreover, appeals are automatic.'

My understanding here is death penalty is mandatory once quilt is proven and the sentence gets carried out without looking into the mitigating circumstances of the case. The judge have no say whether the defendant goes to jail or to the gallows once guilt is proven or admitted. The key word is MANDATORY.No judge, no jury. This was the critical point that was highlighted out by those against capital punishment.

I am not here to say capital punishment is wrong nor a great supporter of aussie policies, but on the point you guys were driving at and getting emotional about ie the aussie gov doing its job trying to save one of it's own citizen following calls from the public. For heaven sake, what do you suppose John Howard to do? Keep mump and pretend nothing is happening. The fact that he may have appealed to Singapore even though he may personally susbcribed to the hanging to send a clear message to the aussie young is something we will never know. The poll here actually shows more australian support the hanging than against. Read

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/death-of-compassion/2005/12/02/1133422108767.html

There have been too much generalizing about australians are being lazy, racsist and now anti capital punishment. I am just trying to put the facts right. Things have changed over here, it's not the white supermacy country it once was. I am a Malaysian and proud to be one still, who happened to live here in Australia or could be anyway else. It just irks me when people do not see both sides of the story and start to rant and level accusations against an entire country.

layman
07-12-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't see any hypocrisy in this whatsoever.

You cannot equate drug abuse with mass murder.


well both are punishable by death in their respective jurisdiction

layman
07-12-2005, 03:45 PM
Quote :'Capital trials require a thorough and deliberative process. Capital trials are split into two distinct phases. In the first phase must decide that the accused is guilty. In the second phase the judge weigh mitigating (sympathetic arguments for the offender) and aggravating (unfavorable arguments about the crime and offender) circumstances, then pronounce the sentence they feel is best suited for the convict. Convicts have ample opportunities to argue for merciful sentences. Moreover, appeals are automatic.'

My understanding here is death penalty is mandatory once quilt is proven and the sentence gets carried out without looking into the mitigating circumstances of the case. The judge have no say whether the defendant goes to jail or to the gallows once guilt is proven or admitted. The key word is MANDATORY.No judge, no jury. This was the critical point that was highlighted out by those against capital punishment.

I am not here to say capital punishment is wrong nor a great supporter of aussie policies, but on the point you guys were driving at and getting emotional about ie the aussie gov doing its job trying to save one of it's own citizen following calls from the public. For heaven sake, what do you suppose John Howard to do? Keep mump and pretend nothing is happening. The fact that he may have appealed to Singapore even though he may personally susbcribed to the hanging to send a clear message to the aussie young is something we will never know. The poll here actually shows more australian support the hanging than against. Read

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/death-of-compassion/2005/12/02/1133422108767.html

There have been too much generalizing about australians are being lazy, racsist and now anti capital punishment. I am just trying to put the facts right. Things have changed over here, it's not the white supermacy country it once was. I am a Malaysian and proud to be one still, who happened to live here in Australia or could be anyway else. It just irks me when people do not see both sides of the story and start to rant and level accusations against an entire country.


the discussion is not about bashing the A government.its about her inconsistency in condemning/being critical of the death penalty.

well to plead for the life of a convicted criminal/change the course of a judicial decision is tantamount to interfering with the internal affairs of a country.

how would the A govrnment react if foreign government were to criticise her for the long sentences imposed on their citizens for drug trafficking?

of course she will rebuked and tell the government its their inherent/legal right to to so

racism is another issue altogether .another debate for another day

CS Chua
07-12-2005, 05:18 PM
the discussion is not about bashing the A government.its about her inconsistency in condemning/being critical of the death penalty.

Can anyone name one country which has been consistent? Even high mighty Singapore cannot be consistent in what they say or do. As for Malaysia...sigh. So let us not be quick to judge and condemn.

isarahim
07-12-2005, 07:05 PM
Drug pusher = mass murder.

I could also agree to this. But:

Drug abuser <> Drug pusher

Drug abuser <> Mass murder

'<>' herein meaning 'not equal to'

Drug abuse is self-inflicted damage and rather commensurate with suicide.