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idolfan
20-11-2005, 06:18 PM
Rather than further divert the tuition thread ,

What are your views regarding getting your kid to learn piano playing without having to go through the pressure of exams and grading..

I know of young adults who learned to play the piano when they were younger and after achieving grade 8. stopped playing and rather not see the piano again. So I guess they learned to play because of pressure from their parents who probably thought it would look good on their resume and succumbed to herd instincts.

My eight yr old has been taking lessons three years now and he plays popular pieces quite well.. ( wife and I are not musically trained but others have said he plays well). Unless he wants to pursue music as a career would it be necessary for him to sit for piano exams? I wouldn't want him to lose the joy of playing the piano by subjecting him to learn all those pieces necessary for exams.

msianidle
20-11-2005, 10:54 PM
i'm a form 5 student, started piano lessons in form 1 (2001-after finishing lick hung)
i enjoyed playing the piano, and advanced pretty quickly, but i was totally against taking exams.. (i told my piano teacher that i didnt want to take any exams, be it theory or pratical) but she taught me some of the theory stuff anyway..
and.. fast forward to form 3 (2003) where i changed my piano teacher, and my new teacher encouraged me to try sitting for the exam.. she didnt force me or anything.. but she did say it would help in applying for colleges etc.
so, i sat for the exam merely half-prepared.. (failed scales) but overall, i PASSED! an ABRSM Grade 5..
and in 2004, i took my theory Grade 5, (which again, last minute studying) ..and got a 97!
today, my 2 piano certs are the most precious and proudest of my certs!

conclusion : enjoying playing an instrument is the most important thing. music is a form of enjoyment, not a chore! but if you're ready for it, go ahead and take the exam!

mon
24-11-2005, 08:46 AM
What are your views regarding getting your kid to learn piano playing without having to go through the pressure of exams and grading..



Hi. I believe it's only right to let him play whatever he enjoys most at the moment. It is already difficult for some of my students to practise any kinda music at all nowadays with their loads of homework etc..

I would not discourage anyone from taking piano exams but, I would only suggest exams to those whom I really think could afford the time, like at least 1-2 hours of practise daily..

It's never easy to even pass a grade one practical, cos it involves so much more than just getting the notes and tempo right. I teach style and interpretation early to my young students so they could really start feeling for the music themselves and that, needs lotsa time and patience on teacher and student.

As you've already known, in exams, there are scales to be memorised, aural and sight-reading, besides playing the 3 exam pcs. One has to prepare for them early, like at least 6 months before the actual exam or as like what I normally do, I'd incorporate these into their lessons once in a while, even with those who has not signed up for any exams..so they would be more prepared, just in case, or at least know what's going on, to be a more knowledgable and well-informed musician.

However, some of the younger ones are just too cute, or shall I say, not ready for anything too serious, haha, and I would go easy on them, let them play whatever they want, but I'd reward them if they play something that I like! a short classical piece perhaps? even if it's only for 1 to 2 measures!..with lotsa mistakes allowed..for a start :)

Whatever your son is learning now is good..His keenness is the most important element..It's better that you do not even mention the word 'EXAMS' if his teacher hasn't..just continue allowing his teacher to do the job..Somehow she'll know when the right time comes; if your son is ready to take up a more challenging learning experience.

Hope that helps..

tupai
24-11-2005, 10:12 AM
for 1 mozart, there are 6,000,000,000 failures.

Music played in any forms, from hollow bamboo to ivory keys are meant to be enjoyed. Exams are put into place for commercial reasons. I really doubt, anyone has ever seen a certificate (heck! any certificate) from any of the world renowned musicians?

3 months ago, my 8yr old initiated the move to 'know' piano. So merrily I took her to yamaha sparade. At the counter, the receptionist pissed me off by talking about exams and buying a RM5-10k piano. :mad:

I gave her this: " Listen here young lady. My daughter is merely curious about playing piano. I do not think she will be another 1:6billions genius in piano. So don't talk to me about the future exams [& how she can be a piano teacher:confused: :eek: ] and investing in rm10k piano! By Jove!, I am not even sure she wants to play anything after a month!! :mad: "

...of course, the hard-sell backed off....my daughter signed up for a once a week 1 hour pop piano (whatever this mean) and she actually looks forward to every weekend session. yes, i bought a yam rm600 keyboard or something.

She is also taking simple cooking lessons (from all my sisters lah) and the BEST for last, she has sat on a pocket repsol-lookalike racing motobike and i spotted twinkles in her eyes :D :D

yang akan bermoto anak lato tupai :D

GreyShadow
24-11-2005, 10:54 AM
Eh? Mon you're a piano teacher ar? any class for a tone deaf adult like me? :D
Tone deaf in term of can't read the tau geh on the 5 lines, only know how to eat tau geh only, can read :p
and also very very bad left/right hand coordination :p My left hand simply is just too dump!! won't react to instruction from my brain! :p

Thinking of learning a tune or two to give my wifey a suprise :D

LXDGRT
24-11-2005, 11:27 AM
My 2 kupang's worth:

Ask yourself: What is your intention of sending your children to music lessons in the first place? (Focus and concentrate on the question please....) For that certificate? Or for the fun and enjoyment of music? Usually most people answer: "For the fun, enjoyment, as a form of relaxation, a hobby, etc.)

If that is the case, the 1st thing is to get them to revel in music first in the below ways:
1. Play songs that are close to their heart (not what the parents or teachers want).
2. Teach them the ART of MAKING music (as opposed to just playing music)
3. If they could play somewhat already, teach them how to get that X factor that can make them sound really, really musical.

Then only comes the question: Do you want a certificate as a testimony of your standard? (Other alternative is a Demo CD or Tape). If the answer is yes, then choose the appropriate exam body to caters to your needs.

You can get more info on the above at: www.trinitycollege.co.uk and www.abrsm.org

Alex

wAISEKMAo
24-11-2005, 01:44 PM
Rather than further divert the tuition thread ,

What are your views regarding getting your kid to learn piano playing without having to go through the pressure of exams and grading..

I know of young adults who learned to play the piano when they were younger and after achieving grade 8. stopped playing and rather not see the piano again. So I guess they learned to play because of pressure from their parents who probably thought it would look good on their resume and succumbed to herd instincts.

My eight yr old has been taking lessons three years now and he plays popular pieces quite well.. ( wife and I are not musically trained but others have said he plays well). Unless he wants to pursue music as a career would it be necessary for him to sit for piano exams? I wouldn't want him to lose the joy of playing the piano by subjecting him to learn all those pieces necessary for exams.

Aiyo....let your son play for fun lar....slow tak ape, but make sure he's having fun. he's only 8 yrs onli lar...what u expect? what happen when he fail the exam? u r making things worst onli.

Unless u really kiasu n kiasi, i do not see the need for a child to take any exam of any sorts. U mention it helps when he enter college ah? what college? Harvard? or inti college onli? all college see $$$ onli mar...see whether u got grade 5 in music or not meh? u gotta be kidding lar..

During my college yr overseas, I got to know a friend of mine is in Asia philharmonic orchestra (by the way he's not studying music lar). I ask him why he's not studying music...he say he's into music for fun onli.

bslee
24-11-2005, 01:47 PM
My parents put me through piano classes and I continued till Grade VI.
I had the talent, but no passion.
Neverthelss, because of my hifi hobby, I have loads of music I enjoy all the time.

LXDGRT
24-11-2005, 03:32 PM
Aiyo....let your son play for fun lar....slow tak ape, but make sure he's having fun. he's only 8 yrs onli lar...what u expect? what happen when he fail the exam? u r making things worst onli.

Unless u really kiasu n kiasi, i do not see the need for a child to take any exam of any sorts. U mention it helps when he enter college ah? what college? Harvard? or inti college onli? all college see $$$ onli mar...see whether u got grade 5 in music or not meh? u gotta be kidding lar..

During my college yr overseas, I got to know a friend of mine is in Asia philharmonic orchestra (by the way he's not studying music lar). I ask him why he's not studying music...he say he's into music for fun onli.

Easier said than done lah! Normally, most people have to read notes and apply the techniques written on the notation score. That is where most people stumble.

1. The songs you like (usually the latest hits) are not in the market in print (as songbooks) until months or a year later. By then, you would have starting loving other songs.
2. The process of reading the notes and interpreting the score is a chore to many people. You have try it to know what I mean.

So how? Like I mentioned about, do it "by ear" lah. Learn the art of "making music" yourself (DIY). The process of it is mentioned in ... . Check it out. Then it would be a lot easier.

Alex

kwchang
24-11-2005, 11:51 PM
LXDGRT / Alex Leow,
I still remember a long long time ago I had told you about advertising your play by ear classes on our Forum. Looks like you are doing it again.

This time I am editing off the mention of your website and I would like other readers to tell me if I should remove all future adverts by you.

wAISEKMAo
25-11-2005, 12:18 AM
Easier said than done lah! Normally, most people have to read notes and apply the techniques written on the notation score. That is where most people stumble.

1. The songs you like (usually the latest hits) are not in the market in print (as songbooks) until months or a year later. By then, you would have starting loving other songs.
2. The process of reading the notes and interpreting the score is a chore to many people. You have try it to know what I mean.

So how? Like I mentioned about, do it "by ear" lah. Learn the art of "making music" yourself (DIY). The process of it is mentioned in ... . Check it out. Then it would be a lot easier.

Alex

For your information, I do know how to play piano.

To learn the notes and to enjoy playing piano doesn't necessary means you need to take exams. As you proceed higher on the grade, you need to spend more time practising. Until certain grade then you need to perform on audiences.

Unless your kids really wish to take the exam himself or else I would not recommend. Let the kids enjoy instead. Let them have fun. Even if he's the best in the country but he's not having fun..no point then.

cactuc1
25-11-2005, 12:47 AM
i also a ex paino student until pass exams until grade 5...That time i lazy to practise and the piano teacher also i guess lazy to teach me..hence only play exams pieces..

Should take exams or not?...i think should..Take is part of investment in your children ex curiculum activies?..However , it depends on the student capability
( age?time? ) . I think all piano teacher will sure push for the exams..that how they measure improvement , they income increase and also made worthy the parents money. If no exams , when to stop piano lessons?..If got exams , should go as far as possible...

I guess parents have to observe they children see whether they like it or not..For my parents , because my sis got grade 8 , they want me too..But i failed on them.Too naught , too disobedience...Personally i blame the piano teacher..too boring..and myself being lazy.

Hope parents will choose piano teacher who are more fun and can motivate the students.

Learning and playing music is wonderful..Non destructive way to relaz ,development oneself and also give satisfactory to oneself that oneself actually can produce something nice.

Hehe..i after stop piano,few year later , i play the guitar...learn from frens..to amuse myself.
Guitar is more mobile and fun to play too:)

idolfan
25-11-2005, 11:24 AM
Thxs Mon and others for response. For now my son will continue to play for "fun".He is enjoying it too much to get him to start playing exam pieces. Maybe when he is older he will decide to do so.

Chermaine
25-11-2005, 01:12 PM
My personal experience!

I forced to go for piano class when I was in Std 6 when I moved back from JB to stay with my parents in Tampin. Dad bought a piano for my sister, and sent her to class, and dad was thinking since an effort to send her to class (a distance from my house) why not I join! I don't have interest at all, and never think of taking piano class since I grow up in kampung (with my grandma).

After we sat for Grade II exam, my sister decided to cabut/stop! And i was thinking kinda wasted to stop, so I continued! But definately is a pressure to me on top of all the school work and other activities (I love to go to the art class). I feel :( when the day I have to attend piano class after my morning school, have to drag myself there!

At home mother would keep reminding me to practice, practice and practice. Since it is not my passion and interest I really force myself to do so, because I know I can't afford to fail any of the theory and practical exam simply because the fees are very expensive! I am not from a rich family!

I was too scare to skip any grade (can if the student wants) so I took every grade of theory and practical exam till grade VI. Each year twice I have to go to Melaka to sit for both theory and pratical exam. Theory have to study hard pratical have to practice, practice make perfect ma :) .

I can't describe the feeling when I was outside waiting for my turn to come (normally the practical exam held in hotel's room). Already very scare, the moment the door open you would see the examiner (big size mat salleh) and I am so tiny to them! :o Stress stresss stress stress......luckily my effort never fail me and I got twice Distinction and 1 merit and twice pass for practical exam! Red colour writing in print on the cert for Distinction, Green for Merit and normal black colour for Pass!

Nightmare to me! Ever since I stopped at grade VI never once I open up the piano again! Please if your kids just want to play for fun because they love music or play to relax they mind, don't force them into the exam. Can be very stressful. Unless you don't mind the kid fail the exam and keep repeating the same grade and you keep paying for the exam fees in pound sterling!

I always discourage friends or colleague's kids to take piano exam. Sorry I sound so bad :o .

Just my own experience, didn't mean to offence anyone!

wAISEKMAo
25-11-2005, 04:14 PM
I can't describe the feeling when I was outside waiting for my turn to come (normally the practical exam held in hotel's room). Already very scare, the moment the door open you would see the examiner (big size mat salleh) and I am so tiny to them! :o Stress stresss stress stress......luckily my effort never fail me and I got twice Distinction and 1 merit and twice pass for practical exam! Red colour writing in print on the cert for Distinction, Green for Merit and normal black colour for Pass!

Nightmare to me! Ever since I stopped at grade VI never once I open up the piano again! Please if your kids just want to play for fun because they love music or play to relax they mind, don't force them into the exam. Can be very stressful. Unless you don't mind the kid fail the exam and keep repeating the same grade and you keep paying for the exam fees in pound sterling!

I always discourage friends or colleague's kids to take piano exam. Sorry I sound so bad :o .

Just my own experience, didn't mean to offence anyone!

Every kids are scared of waiting for his turn to take test. hahaha...including me too!!!

mon
25-11-2005, 07:19 PM
Every kids are scared of waiting for his turn to take test. hahaha...including me too!!!

And me ;) ...even now.. :p

cactuc1
26-11-2005, 11:31 PM
Can be a source of income also part time or full time in the future.
Got a fren who in sitiawan who study until grade 8..now teaching part time as piano teacher on weekends only..She earn around rm1500 per month!!!..I wonder how many students she can squess in 2 days?...

tupai
27-11-2005, 01:56 AM
i also know of someone in d.utama earning rm8k+ and had converted her hall into a music room...she is happy financially but a slave to this home grown profession... :p

yang akan belajar piano lato tupai

adriene
27-11-2005, 10:37 PM
exam! Red colour writing in print on the cert for Distinction, Green for Merit and normal black colour for Pass!



Ha, Chermaine, I didn't know about the colours, because in all my ten years, I only ever got Pass. Never got a Distinction or Merit, except for a theory exam once.

This brought to surface long-forgotten memories of my own piano-playing days.

Here's my personal sharing.

I took ABRSM piano lessons from age 7 to 16. It's been a decade since I stopped. Since then, I've hardly touched the piano. Partly because I moved away from home and didn't have a piano around, but mainly due to my personal lack of interest.

You see, the lessons were more my parents' will instead of my own. They believed that music is a useful skill to have. They spoke of how I could become a piano teacher as a backup career, what a easy job that is, how much money I could make. Perhaps they wanted to give me the opportunities that they didn't have themselves.

I think it was also said that music skills would look good on my CV when applying for college/uni/jobs. Ha, now I know no employer cares at all, unless if you're applying for a job with the Philharmonic.

I recall that I was never very good at the piano. I didn't enjoy the piano lessons and did not practise half enough. I think I gave my teachers many headaches. I was especially bad at sight reading. The only bit I was good at was viva voce and was specifically recommended for vocal lessons, but that was beyond our means considering the already hefty piano fees and exam fees.

I was all too conscious of how my parents made personal sacrifices to pay for my piano fees and the exam fees. Music lessons ain't cheap! I felt pressured to make good the "investment" in me. Perhaps my teachers were under pressure themselves because they spent most of the year drilling me in the exam pieces to give me a head start. Very exam-oriented.

And the practical exams, how I dreaded them. It was scary walking into the examination room and having to perform before the UK examiner. Somehow, I managed to scrape through the exams.

When I wanted to quit after Grade 6, my parents reminded me of how there are many other kids who want to learn but don't have the chance, so what a lucky girl am I. And after having come so far, what a shame to stop. So I trudged on with the lessons until Grade 8.

Now that I am older and hopefully more mature, I can see the past more clearly. I now realise that despite all the time and money spent, I didn't gain as much from my music lessons as I could have and should have, mainly through my own fault. It is a bit of a shame but that's in the past. I can't change it anymore but I have some thoughts about how the future can be better for my children and perhaps others.

Much as I would love for my children to be musically talented, I'm not willing to force it upon them. I believe that the most important thing is to encourage the child to have a genuine love for music, rather than drill them to pass exams. I would apply this for all fields of study. Childhood is too precious to be spent mugging for exams only to have a cold, dispassionate adult at the end of the day.

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 01:34 AM
Now that I am older and hopefully more mature, I can see the past more clearly. I now realise that despite all the time and money spent, I didn't gain as much from my music lessons as I could have and should have, mainly through my own fault. It is a bit of a shame but that's in the past. I can't change it anymore but I have some thoughts about how the future can be better for my children and perhaps others.

Much as I would love for my children to be musically talented, I'm not willing to force it upon them. I believe that the most important thing is to encourage the child to have a genuine love for music, rather than drill them to pass exams. I would apply this for all fields of study. Childhood is too precious to be spent mugging for exams only to have a cold, dispassionate adult at the end of the day.
There is such a thing as "approaching the subject wrongly" in the 1st place. Now that you are *scarred* for it, you viewed learning music as a tough subject. However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime. And enjoying themselves too.

Maybe you should let your children learn music the way these musicians learnt music. It's very interesting to know how they do it so effortlessly and effectively when many of you have to work so hard to achieve it. No self consciousness, had plenty of fun themselves while entertaining others, so confident, etc. vs. the self-conscious exam student, unwilling to play when relatives and friend come and tried to coax you to, etc. etc.

Ok, enough said, otherwise the moderator will think I am trying to advertise, blah blah blah. Suffice it to say the "learning music is extremely easy". Just do a bit of homework on this matter and you will find the answer for yourself and your children. "If the student is ready, the *right* teacher shall appear."

orchipalar
28-11-2005, 09:54 AM
Originally quoted by Alex: However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime. And enjoying themselves too.
Err...dear Alex:)...hoping you don't mind to be more specific here...by telling everyone also...how many of them n whom?...exactly were the world renowned musical genious or talents...that never had to go thru formal training...??...TQ:)

tupai
28-11-2005, 02:29 PM
Err...dear Alex:)...hoping you don't mind to be more specific here...by telling everyone also...how many of them n whom?...exactly were the world renowned musical genious or talents...that never had to go thru formal training...??...TQ:)

my era? got eric clapton, jimmy hendrik, rod steward, also got sex-pistols, and closer to home? can't tell u cos they will kill me...

my g-g-g-grand pa's era : got mozart, beethoven and a few more famous & infamous stiffs :D

But their marketing managers made equally as much $ outta thier talents lah. :D

Yang Amat Blur lato tupai

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 03:00 PM
my era? got eric clapton, jimmy hendrik, rod steward, also got sex-pistols, and closer to home? can't tell u cos they will kill me...

my g-g-g-grand pa's era : got mozart, beethoven and a few more famous & infamous stiffs :D

But their marketing managers made equally as much $ outta thier talents lah. :D

Yang Amat Blur lato tupai

Well, Orchi, Tupai has pre-empted me. Beatles never had formal training. Kavana can't read notes, Pavarotti just know something about notes but does not read them when singing. Obviously Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can't read notes so how to have formal training? But the made tons of money, right? And had fun too, right?

Managers are entitled to making money too because, without them to do lots of legwork and pulling strings, these artist would probably be sitting in their hole of misery. So I say that sharing of wealth between them is ok.

orchipalar
28-11-2005, 03:33 PM
Err...so Orchi takes it...there are only fewer or dozens of natural musical genius n talents around...yes?

Err...should one discount the facts that there are countless numbers of accredited musical colleges around the world also...n they are mainly there to churn out useless certs n degrees...right?

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 03:52 PM
Err...so Orchi takes it...there are only fewer or dozens of natural musical genius n talents around...yes?

Err...should one discount the facts that there are countless numbers of accredited musical colleges around the world also...n they are mainly there to churn out certs n degrees...right?

Aiyah, not so extreme lah. In terms of statistics, most people who took up music lessons through mainstream methods end up giving up and only a few made it to college lah. How to continue in a subject when you find "no fun" in it? I doubt anybody can be pushed for so many years in something they don't like and then make anything substantial out of it.

It is better to pursue something with passion. And I guess those who can make it to college will have more music sense in them than the hundreds of thousands of others who fell off.

So, that is to say that, the chances of you reaching stardom with mainstream music lessons is much narrower. Reason? This is what an acquaintance in US said when I wrote to him about this subject:

"....I studied music in college. I met many people who were very spontaneous and could play by ear, then they started to study "the rules" and were told they couldn't do what they had been doing for ages. Their spontaneity died.

I value the music education I received, but to me the goal of learning the rules is so that you can move beyond them. In my opinion, music comes from the heart and soul, not from rules in a book. The rules should help you find your voice, but, as you know, for many people that doesn't work.

Good luck in your efforts,

Don Kraig"

Hope that shed some light.

orchipalar
28-11-2005, 04:02 PM
Err...as a parent to two growing up children...Orchi too wonders...IF any of them...would have a taste or what it takes...to be a musical prodigy... (http://www.xtec.es/~cmiro12/intelmu/winnere.htm)

n Orchi believes that...without taking the first step to see them participating or encouraging them to musical classes or exams from young...err...the chances would likely be ZERO...:o

Ahem...the rest is up to the individual parents...n the students...whether they too would believe in polish diamonds or not...:)

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 04:10 PM
Err...as a parent to two growing up children...Orchi too wonders...IF any of them...would have a taste or what it takes...to be a musical prodigy... (http://www.xtec.es/~cmiro12/intelmu/winnere.htm)

n Orchi believes that...without taking the first step to see them participating or sending them to musical classes from young...err...the chances would likely be ZERO...:o

Ahem...the rest is up to the individual parents...n the students...whether they too would believe in polish diamonds or not...:)

Ahhh.....now you are getting warmer. The next question is: What type of music lessons?

For that you will have know what type of personality your child is.

1. If he/she is the creative type who can pull ideas out of his head, or tinkle a tune the moment he/she hears a melody, then he should be put into creative musical training - more towards the "play by ear" type.
2. If he/she has no clue, then go for a talent evaluation first to find out his/her aptitude.
3. If he/she can play already but need to strengthen his playing techniques, then he should go for lessons specific to the instrument he/she is inclined to.

That way, you won't waste money paying fees for a few years, invest in thousands of dollars for a piano and then find that he does not have any aptitute for it in the 1st place.

Ski
28-11-2005, 04:25 PM
Hi
I too learned piano lessons to grade 5 just for the exams...never had any passion, parents were ambitious,my teacher was also a terror that put me off too.

I guess many learn for exams to persue a career but I do envy musicians who can play by ear these ppl have a gift and a talent.

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 04:59 PM
Hi
I too learned piano lessons to grade 5 just for the exams...never had any passion, parents were ambitious,my teacher was also a terror that put me off too.

I guess many learn for exams to persue a career but I do envy musicians who can play by ear these ppl have a gift and a talent.

Well, not too late. I know of 70 & 80 yrs old people who took up and played for concerts and functions. Pretty nice music too. Even Tun Dr Siti Hasmah too up playing quite late in her 70's and did very well. I love the way she rendered Getaran Jiwa.

Go and try la. Never try, never know.

kwchang
28-11-2005, 05:45 PM
May I say that some people are gifted. Music is a talent, we cannot deny that. Anyone can be self-taught to achieve some level of mastery of any skill. However, we should not deny that some people learn a particular skill more easily.

For example, everyone can run but some can run faster than the rest. These people have specific physiological advantages that make them more capable. However, with guidance and training, these 'special' people can enhance their skill to excellent levels because they are taught methods to maximise their potentials. The methods used are also well tried and researched to achieve the best results.

Back to the piano, although anyone can hit the keys in specific order to produce a semblance of a music piece, one can achieve that faster with the correct guidance using the best researched methods. No doubt, a play-by-ear method is also a methodology. However, let us not put aside a world-wide system that carries with it accreditation (the exams) which will become useful for advancement to career levels.

The debate can now proceed to argue if the ABRSM method is better than the play-by-ear method. Let us not be encumbered by the cost of training because the cost is there to maintain the levels of professionalism. Let us talk results. Mind you, a piano lesson can be boring because the teacher is boring, not the music piece. I know, because I have seen my kids' interest wan due to poor teaching methods.

LXDGRT
28-11-2005, 06:18 PM
My 2 cents worth is that more people are gifted than they think they are. My estimate now is that 95% of people are talented; just that there are different degrees of talent.

And what I do know is that learning the musical instrument does not develop the talent; learning the "art of making music" is the way to go.

Like the analogy quoted above where some are more excellent runners, in music, there are excellent musicians but the rest of us just want to play for fun. Isn't that what parents want when they send their children for music lessons? However the methodology used tends to "kill" the fun. Some teachers are also to blame lah.

The point is: "How to learn to make music without killing the fun; but rather enhance the fun?" With this, a good methodology along with good teachers can make a huge world of difference.

And guess what? Even ABRSM in their recent seminars conducted are acknowledging that playing music with spontaniety and musicality (i.e. by ear) should be the end results. And reading notes tends to slow down that process. That's why they are introducing Jazz but the problem is that not many teachers can deal with it because the majority have been teaching with notes for umpteen years. How to teach real Jazz with notes? Very very difficult if not impossible.

My input is that if you really want to play music for fun, you have to go way above reading the music scores.

patrick
28-11-2005, 06:27 PM
Let me share a very interesting comment from someone in the US:

"I think this playing by ear is very valuable. I studied music in college. I met many people who were very spontaneous and could play by ear, then they started to study "the rules" and were told they couldn't do what they had been doing for ages. Their spontaneity died.

I value the music education I received, but to me the goal of learning the rules is so that you can move beyond them. In my opinion, music comes from the heart and soul, not from rules in a book. The rules should help you find your voice, but, as you know, for many people that doesn't work." - Don Kraig

Hence repeating what some have written. Exam is something one wants to do and not have to do. I do believe everything in hobbies and interest should be spontaneous. I believe that one shouldnt even force the child to perform if she doesnt want to or is not ready to. Everything should be spontaneous.

mon
28-11-2005, 10:20 PM
I would not discourage anyone from taking piano exams but, I would only suggest exams to those whom I really think could afford the time, like at least 1-2 hours of practise daily..

Whatever your son is learning now is good..His keenness is the most important element..It's better that you do not even mention the word 'EXAMS' if his teacher hasn't..just continue allowing his teacher to do the job..Somehow she/he will know when the right time comes; if your son is ready to take up a more challenging learning experience.


In addition to what I've said earlier...on a more serious note, for the more serious learner.

To a musician, of any instruments at all, W O R K..is the greatest sculptor. Only through work, do we become better musicians.

In my own development as a pianist, it has been made evident to me, time and time again, that success comes from the careful observance of 'details'. I have strived to estimate my own artistic ability very accurately.

If I had failed to attend to certain details many years ago, I would have stopped very far short of anything like..success. I have toiled many hours in a day, of grind,grind,grind and incessant study and endless of practice, practice, practice..for means to raise my artistic standing.

What is my most indispensable attribute? Sincerity..If I am not sincere in what I do, I am nothing more than a showman..everytime I touch the keys of the piano, I have a message to convey. If this spirit is not cultivated during my younger learning days, if my parents and teachers had not given me the proper training and opportunities, I wouldn't be who I am today..

To my mind, it is far better to be one live, active, helpful teacher to two struggling students than to be one who has tens of students who could just play and hit the keys of the piano mechanically.

Practice is demanding and time consuming..but it's just a small investment on success.

I speak only to those who are seriously thinking of making good music..the way the greatest composers had intended for their music to be conveyed..

adriene
29-11-2005, 12:48 AM
There is such a thing as "approaching the subject wrongly" in the 1st place. Now that you are *scarred* for it, you viewed learning music as a tough subject. However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime.

Alex,

I do not appreciate the label *scarred*. You don't know my past, present and you don't know my future. Please do not use me as an excuse to plug your personal business interests in this non-profit forum.

adriene

mon
29-11-2005, 01:11 AM
And guess what? Even ABRSM in their recent seminars conducted are acknowledging that playing music with spontaniety and musicality (i.e. by ear) should be the end results. And reading notes tends to slow down that process. That's why they are introducing Jazz but the problem is that not many teachers can deal with it because the majority have been teaching with notes for umpteen years. How to teach real Jazz with notes? Very very difficult if not impossible.

My input is that if you really want to play music for fun, you have to go way above reading the music scores.

Alex, learning to read notes from score is the basic essential to playing good piano pieces, accurately. If you already know the basics, then you could opt to bring your playing up to a better standard, with or without exams. Without a good basic foundation, one could never possibly excel..and only create difficulties in more professional learning or playing more difficult pieces..if ever they wish to later..

And ABRSM did not introduce Jazz to discourage students from reading from scores.
"Each jazz arrangement contains a fully notated Head and at least one section for improvisation..Great care has therefore been taken in developing this syllabus to make it suitable for all students of jazz, both those already playing or studying jazz, who have never before had access to performance assessment of this kind, and those who have gained their existing experience and knowledge from the study of classical music."

ABRSM did not spend years piloting their Jazz Piano Syllabus without understanding that reading techniques, as well as any good educational course is progressive..with basic knowledge and basic skills coming before the more advanced material.

Lastly, you mentioned that for one to really want to play music for fun, one must go way above reading the music scores. This, you couldn't possibly be referring to ABRSM exams again, could you? You should just refer that line for your 'Play By Ear' method, in which I have no comments or whatsoever from the start.

To train a good musician, reading notes and having a good ear are inseparable. To have good reading skills and good tone production, one has to? PRACTISE. Amateurs practise until they get something right, but professionals practise until they can't get it wrong.

p/s: FYI, I play by ear too, without scores. Because I know how to.. and suprisingly, it comes naturally for most of my 'classical' students as well..

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 01:33 AM
Err...lets see what the Americans have to say about Music Educations...:)

Music Education Facts and Figures...by MENC...The National Association of Music Education.

Success in Society

Perhaps the basic reason that every child must have an education in music is that music is a part of the fabric of our society. The intrinsic value of music for each individual is widely recognized in the many cultures that make up American life — indeed, every human culture uses music to carry forward its ideas and ideals. The importance of music to our economy is without doubt. And the value of music in shaping individual abilities and character are attested in a number of places:

* Secondary students who participated in band or orchestra reported the lowest lifetime and current use of all substances (alcohol, tobacco, illicit drugs). — Texas Commission on Drug and Alcohol Abuse Report. Reported in Houston Chronicle, January 1998
* “Music is a magical gift we must nourish and cultivate in our children, especially now as scientific evidence proves that an education in the arts makes better math and science students, enhances spatial intelligence in newborns, and let's not forget that the arts are a compelling solution to teen violence, certainly not the cause of it!”— Michael Greene, Recording Academy President and CEO at the 42nd Annual Grammy Awards, February 2000.
* The U.S. Department of Education lists the arts as subjects that college-bound middle and junior high school students should take, stating "Many colleges view participation in the arts and music as a valuable experience that broadens students’ understanding and appreciation of the world around them. It is also well known and widely recognized that the arts contribute significantly to children’s intellectual development." In addition, one year of Visual and Performing Arts is recommended for college-bound high school students. — Getting Ready for College Early: A Handbook for Parents of Students in the Middle and Junior High School Years, U.S. Department of Education, 1997
* The College Board identifies the arts as one of the six basic academic subject areas students should study in order to succeed in college. — Academic Preparation for College: What Students Need to Know and Be Able to Do, 1983 [still in use], The College Board, New York
* The arts create jobs, increase the local tax base, boost tourism, spur growth in related businesses (hotels, restaurants, printing, etc.) and improve the overall quality of life for our cities and towns. On a national level, nonprofit arts institutions and organizations generate an estimated $37 billion in economic activity and return $3.4 billion in federal income taxes to the U.S. Treasury each year. — American Arts Alliance Fact Sheet, October 1996
* The very best engineers and technical designers in the Silicon Valley industry are, nearly without exception, practicing musicians. — Grant Venerable, "The Paradox of the Silicon Savior," as reported in "The Case for Sequential Music Education in the Core Curriculum of the Public Schools," The Center for the Arts in the Basic Curriculum, New York, 1989

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 01:37 AM
Continuation from the earlier post...

Success in School

Success in society, of course, is predicated on success in school. Any music teacher or parent of a music student can call to mind anecdotes about effectiveness of music study in helping children become better students. Skills learned through the discipline of music, these stories commonly point out, transfer to study skills, communication skills, and cognitive skills useful in every part of the curriculum. Another common variety of story emphasizes the way that the discipline of music study — particularly through participation in ensembles — helps students learn to work effectively in the school environment without resorting to violent or inappropriate behavior. And there are a number of hard facts that we can report about the ways that music study is correlated with success in school:

* “The term ‘core academic subjects’ means English, reading or language arts, mathematics, science, foreign languages, civics and government, economics, arts, history, and geography.” — No Child Left Behind Act of 2002, Title IX, Part A, Sec. 9101 (11)
* A study of 237 second grade children used piano keyboard training and newly designed math software to demonstrate improvement in math skills. The group scored 27% higher on proportional math and fractions tests than children that used only the math software. — Graziano, Amy, Matthew Peterson, and Gordon Shaw, "Enhanced learning of proportional math through music training and spatial-temporal training." Neurological Research 21 (March 1999).
* In an analysis of U.S. Department of Education data on more than 25,000 secondary school students (NELS:88, National Education Longitudinal Survey), researchers found that students who report consistent high levels of involvement in instrumental music over the middle and high school years show “significantly higher levels of mathematics proficiency by grade 12.” This observation holds regardless of students’ socio-economic status, and differences in those who are involved with instrumental music vs. those who are not is more significant over time. — Catterall, James S., Richard Chapleau, and John Iwanaga. “Involvement in the Arts and Human Development: General Involvement and Intensive Involvement in Music and Theater Arts.” Los Angeles, CA: The Imagination Project at UCLA Graduate School of Education and Information Studies, 1999.
* Students with coursework/experience in music performance and music appreciation scored higher on the SAT: students in music performance scored 57 points higher on the verbal and 41 points higher on the math, and students in music appreciation scored 63 points higher on verbal and 44 points higher on the math, than did students with no arts participation. — College-Bound Seniors National Report: Profile of SAT Program Test Takers. Princeton, NJ: The College Entrance Examination Board, 2001.
* According to statistics compiled by the National Data Resource Center, students who can be classified as “disruptive” (based on factors such as frequent skipping of classes, times in trouble, in-school suspensions, disciplinary reasons given, arrests, and drop-outs) total 12.14 percent of the total school population. In contrast, only 8.08 percent of students involved in music classes meet the same criteria as “disruptive.” — Based on data from the NELS:88 (National Education Longitudinal Study), second follow-up, 1992.
* Data from the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988 showed that music participants received more academic honors and awards than non-music students, and that the percentage of music participants receiving As, As/Bs, and Bs was higher than the percentage of non- participants receiving those grades. — NELS:88 First Follow-up, 1990, National Center for Education Statistics, Washington DC
* Physician and biologist Lewis Thomas studied the undergraduate majors of medical school applicants. He found that 66% of music majors who applied to medical school were admitted, the highest percentage of any group. 44% of biochemistry majors were admitted. — As reported in "The Case for Music in the Schools," Phi Delta Kappan, February 1994
* A study of 811 high school students indicated that the proportion of minority students with a music teacher role-model was significantly larger than for any other discipline. 36% of these students identified music teachers as their role models, as opposed to 28% English teachers, 11% elementary teachers, 7% physical education/sports teachers, 1% principals. — D.L. Hamann and L.M. Walker, "Music teachers as role models for African-American students," Journal of Research in Music Education, 41, 1993
* Students who participated in arts programs in selected elementary and middle schools in New York City showed significant increases in self-esteem and thinking skills. — National Arts Education Research Center, New York University, 1990

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 01:38 AM
Continuation from the earlier posts...

Success in Developing Intelligence

Success in school and in society depends on an array of abilities. Without joining the intense ongoing debate about the nature of intelligence as a basic ability, we can demonstrate that some measures of a child’s intelligence are indeed increased with music instruction. Once again, this burgeoning range of data supports a long-established base of anecdotal knowledge to the effect that music education makes kids smarter. What is new and especially compelling, however, is a combination of tightly-controlled behavioral studies and groundbreaking neurological research that show how music study can actively contribute to brain development:

* In a study conducted by Dr. Timo Krings, pianists and non-musicians of the same age and sex were required to perform complex sequences of finger movements. Their brains were scanned using a technique called “functional magnetic resource imaging” (fMRI) which detects the activity levels of brain cells. The non-musicians were able to make the movements as correctly as the pianists, but less activity was detected in the pianists’ brains. Thus, compared to non-musicians, the brains of pianists are more efficient at making skilled movements. These findings show that musical training can enhance brain function. — Weinberger, Norm. “The Impact of Arts on Learning.” MuSICa Research Notes 7, no. 2 (Spring 2000). Reporting on Krings, Timo et al. “Cortical Activation Patterns during Complex Motor Tasks in Piano Players and Control Subjects. A Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Study.” Neuroscience Letters 278, no. 3 (2000): 189-93.
* “The musician is constantly adjusting decisions on tempo, tone, style, rhythm, phrasing, and feeling--training the brain to become incredibly good at organizing and conducting numerous activities at once. Dedicated practice of this orchestration can have a great payoff for lifelong attentional skills, intelligence, and an ability for self-knowledge and expression.” — Ratey John J., MD. A User’s Guide to the Brain. New York: Pantheon Books, 2001.
* A research team exploring the link between music and intelligence reported that music training is far superior to computer instruction in dramatically enhancing children's abstract reasoning skills, the skills necessary for learning math and science. — Shaw, Rauscher, Levine, Wright, Dennis and Newcomb, "Music training causes long-term enhancement of preschool children's spatial-temporal reasoning," Neurological Research, Vol. 19, February 1997
* Students in two Rhode Island elementary schools who were given an enriched, sequential, skill-building music program showed marked improvement in reading and math skills. Students in the enriched program who had started out behind the control group caught up to statistical equality in reading, and pulled ahead in math. — Gardiner, Fox, Jeffrey and Knowles, as reported in Nature, May 23, 1996
* Researchers at the University of Montreal used various brain imaging techniques to investigate brain activity during musical tasks and found that sight-reading musical scores and playing music both activate regions in all four of the cortex's lobes; and that parts of the cerebellum are also activated during those tasks. — Sergent, J., Zuck, E., Tenial, S., and MacDonall, B. (1992). Distributed neural network underlying musical sight reading and keyboard performance. Science, 257, 106-109.
* Researchers in Leipzig found that brain scans of musicians showed larger planum temporale (a brain region related to some reading skills) than those of non-musicians. They also found that the musicians had a thicker corpus callosum (the bundle of nerve fibers that connects the two halves of the brain) than those of non-musicians, especially for those who had begun their training before the age of seven. — Schlaug, G., Jancke, L., Huang, Y., and Steinmetz, H. (1994). In vivo morphometry of interhem ispheric assymetry and connectivity in musicians. In I. Deliege (Ed.), Proceedings of the 3d international conference for music perception and cognition (pp. 417-418). Liege, Belgium.
* A University of California (Irvine) study showed that after eight months of keyboard lessons, preschoolers showed a 46% boost in their spatial reasoning IQ. — Rauscher, Shaw, Levine, Ky and Wright, "Music and Spatial Task Performance: A Causal Relationship," University of California, Irvine, 1994
* Researchers found that children given piano lessons significantly improved in their spatial- temporal IQ scores (important for some types of mathematical reasoning) compared to children who received computer lessons, casual singing, or no lessons. — Rauscher, F.H., Shaw, G.L., Levine, L.J., Wright, E.L., Dennis, W.R., and Newcomb, R. (1997) Music training causes long-term enhancement of preschool children's spatial temporal reasoning. Neurological Research, 19, 1-8.
* A McGill University study found that pattern recognition and mental representation scores improved significantly for students given piano instruction over a three-year period. They also found that self-esteem and musical skills measures improved for the students given piano instruction. — Costa-Giomi, E. (1998, April). The McGill Piano Project: Effects of three years of piano instruction on children's cognitive abilities, academic achievement, and self-esteem. Paper presented at the meeting of the Music Educators National Conference, Phoenix, AZ.
* Researchers found that lessons on songbells (a standard classroom instrument) led to significant improvement of spatial-temporal scores for three- and four-year-olds. — Gromko, J.E., and Poorman, A.S. (1998) The effect of music training on preschooler's spatial-temporal task performance. Journal of Research in Music Education, 46, 173-181.
* In the Kindergarten classes of the school district of Kettle Moraine, Wisconsin, children who were given music instruction scored 48 percent higher on spatial-temporal skill tests than those who did not receive music training. — Rauscher, F.H., and Zupan, M.A. (1999). Classroom keyboard instruction improves kindergarten children's spatial-temporal performance: A field study. Manuscript in press, Early Childhood Research Quarterly.
* An Auburn University study found significant increases in overall self-concept of at-risk children participating in an arts program that included music, movement, dramatics and art, as measured by the Piers-Harris Children’s Self-Concept Scale. — N.H. Barry, Project ARISE: Meeting the needs of disadvantaged students through the arts, Auburn University, 1992

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 01:41 AM
Err...n finally...Orchi shall say this last piece in here..."ahem...the rest is up to you...to experience n come up with your own conclusions..."...TQ:)

http://www.menc.org/information/advocate/facts.html

Success in Life

Each of us wants our children — and the children of all those around us — to achieve success in school, success in employment, and success in the social structures through which we move. But we also want our children to experience “success” on a broader scale. Participation in music, often as not based on a grounding in music education during the formative school years, brings countless benefits to each individual throughout life. The benefits may be psychological or spiritual, and they may be physical as well:

* “Studying music encourages self-discipline and diligence, traits that carry over into intellectual pursuits and that lead to effective study and work habits. An association of music and math has, in fact, long been noted. Creating and performing music promotes self-expression and provides self-gratification while giving pleasure to others. In medicine, increasing published reports demonstrate that music has a healing effect on patients. For all these reasons, it deserves strong support in our educational system, along with the other arts, the sciences, and athletics.” — Michael E. DeBakey, M.D., Leading Heart Surgeon, Baylor College of Music.
* “Music has a great power for bringing people together. With so many forces in this world acting to drive wedges between people, it’s important to preserve those things that help us experience our common humanity.” — Ted Turner, Turner Broadcasting System.
* “Music is one way for young people to connect with themselves, but it is also a bridge for connecting with others. Through music, we can introduce children to the richness and diversity of the human family and to the myriad rhythms of life.” — Daniel A. Carp, Eastman Kodak Company Chairman and CEO.
* “Casals says music fills him with the wonder of life and the ‘incredible marvel’ of being a human. Ives says it expands his mind and challenges him to be a true individual. Bernstein says it is enriching and ennobling. To me, that sounds like a good cause for making music and the arts an integral part of every child’s education. Studying music and the arts elevates children’s education, expands students’ horizons, and teaches them to appreciate the wonder of life.” — U.S. Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley, July 1999.
* “The nation’s top business executives agree that arts education programs can help repair weaknesses in American education and better prepare workers for the 21st century.”— “The Changing Workplace is Changing Our View of Education.” Business Week, October 1996.
* “Music making makes the elderly healthier.... There were significant decreases in anxiety, depression, and loneliness following keyboard lessons. These are factors that are critical in coping with stress, stimulating the immune system, and in improved health. Results also show significant increases in human growth hormones following the same group keyboard lessons. (Human growth hormone is implicated in aches and pains.)” — Dr. Frederick Tims, reported in AMC Music News, June 2, 1999
* “Music education opens doors that help children pass from school into the world around them — a world of work, culture, intellectual activity, and human involvement. The future of our nation depends on providing our children with a complete education that includes music.” — Gerald Ford, former President, United States of America
* “During the Gulf War, the few opportunities I had for relaxation I always listened to music, and it brought to me great peace of mind. I have shared my love of music with people throughout this world, while listening to the drums and special instruments of the Far East, Middle East, Africa, the Caribbean, and the Far North — and all of this started with the music appreciation course that I was taught in a third-grade elementary class in Princeton, New Jersey. What a tragedy it would be if we lived in a world where music was not taught to children.” — H. Norman Schwarzkopf, General, U.S. Army, retired
* “Music is about communication, creativity, and cooperation, and, by studying music in school, students have the opportunity to build on these skills, enrich their lives, and experience the world from a new perspective.” — Bill Clinton, former President, United States of America

mon
29-11-2005, 01:54 AM
Let me share a very interesting comment from someone in the US:

"I think this playing by ear is very valuable. I studied music in college. I met many people who were very spontaneous and could play by ear, then they started to study "the rules" and were told they couldn't do what they had been doing for ages. Their spontaneity died.



Pat, my experience is the other way around :) I learned and studied by 'rules' first and played by ear, to contemporary music and songs a while later..err..I'm still alive & kickin' :p

mon
29-11-2005, 02:23 AM
Now that you are *scarred* for it, you viewed learning music as a tough subject. However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime.



Please..don't assume this. Thank you.

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 02:48 AM
Err...kinda missed these rationales...in the previous postings...so Orchi wishes to add in here...ahem...WITHOUT education/studies...trainings...courses...practices... rehearsals... recitals... thesis...theories...auditions...researches...trial s...tests n EXAMS...do ask the following questions to begin with...

~ what a doctor would be...?
~ what a lawyer would be...?
~ what a chemist would be...?
~ what a dentist would be...?
~ what a biologist would be...?
~ what a mathematician would be...?
~ what a scientist would be...?
~ what a pilot or an astronauts would be...?
~ what a commander would be...?
~ what an accountant would be...?
~ what an architect would be...?
~ what a student woud be...?
~ what a teacher would be...?
~ what a lecturer would be...?
~ what a professor would be...?
~ what an engineer would be...?
~ what a technician would be...?
~ what a singer would be...?
~ what a composer would be...?
~ what a musician would be...?
Etc.

n WITHOUT discipline...hardwork...determination...n skill...what would SUCCESS be expected of...to be...?

Ahem...n what would it be?...Difficulties n Hardships?...YES...Plenty:o

Err...n what would it be?...EASY?...NO...Hardly ever:)

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 09:31 AM
This is getting off track somewhat. Let's get back on track: The original question was: "Is (Music) examination necessary?". And of course, it is the general assumption that the 2 main examination bodies are the ones in question; and the effect is has on the majority of the candidates partaking in it.

To my understanding, the one who posted the question wanted to understand if it is really necessary at all.

And that led to the questions:
1. What is the purpose of taking music lessons; for fun or for qualification? (answered)
2. If for qualifications: What are the benefits of taking the examination? (answered)
3. and what are the down point of taking the examination? (answered)
4. What causes the problems? (answered)
5. If for fun, what are the alternatives? (answered)
6. How does one make the bucks you pay for music lessons worth its value. (answered)
7. What the authorities have to say (answered in detail)

With that, the *big* questions have been answered. Except that I wish to clarify some *small* by very significant points:

From the thread of conversation, I believe many assumed that alternatives lacked disciplines, determinations, etc. And also that the alternative method is considered "not the proper" method. I also believe that it is assumed that taking music lessons anywhere, anyhow will do to develop the person.

To this end, I hoped to clarify (with all due respect to those who preferred the mainstream method). I also hoped to go down to the specific part as to how music developed a person:
1. Musicians, no matter which stream they come from, practiced "like crazy" with all the discipline and determinations they can muster when it comes to delivery especially for public performances. It is their ricebowl. It is only those who want to play "for fun" who will just let their music be "imperfect". Hence this is where I believe it is assumed that alternative methods are considered lacking in such disciplinary details. The truth is more suprising. We are just deluded that since they delivered it soooooo easily & effortlessly, they probably did not have to practice much or work as hard.
2. One of the world's largest examination & education body will allow performance by notation up to Level 5. Above that, this body will fail anyone who does not display the "musicality" and "the articulations" required of a true musician. It does not matter how much discipline, determination, blood, sweat and tears you put in; if you don't show that musicality, you fail. Period. In that respect, this tells me (at least me) that playing by ear and feel is *more important* than playing accurately by the notes.
3. A statement was made that music developed the overall well being of the participants. True but I think that needs to be qualified and not just applied to music education wholesale. The scientific part of music helps a lot in the logical and sequential development of our psyche. The artistic part of music develops the artistic, aesthetic, creative and social part of our psyche. It is also a fact that mostly those who major in social studies fare better than those who major in non-social studies. So it looks like the scale tips better for those one the artistic and social side. In the US, social and creative education methods are prevalent. However, not so in Malaysia - still a long way to go. Even England (where our examination board comes from) falls short compared to US....but at least they are changing their perspective gradually. It may just take some time to trickle down to Malaysians.

It is with the above points that I (at least I) stand by the fact that learning the creative and social side of music will take one farther and "way above the music score" to achieve that "musicality".

And I also believe that this "musicality" can be developed right from the start instead of waiting for some years. This is akin to the "mother tongue method: speak & articulate first, learn the grammar later". Can you imagine telling your child: "Don't speak a word until I teach you to read the alphabets and the words"?

I hope that clarifies a lot of things.

Ski
29-11-2005, 09:39 AM
Hello
Its being a long time since I listened to some piano recitals..last was in an hotel lounge and this pianist was playing by request without notes very enjoyable evening.

Does anyone know where I could find live band performance including of course a painist... a liitle devation from listening to my vinyl every night.

How about Madame Mon inviting us to listen to her play some classical overtures/tunes ;)

Tq

libra
29-11-2005, 09:55 AM
Both my 2 kids started their piano lessons when they were 4 years old. They took the Yamaha Course. The girl finished her Student Grade ( appro 8 years). When she was Std 1 she took the ABRSM . Both the courses complement each other. I noticed Yamaha trained her hearing and ABRSM trained her note reading and her technique in playing. Yamaha trained her to play in a group.As she is in her teen now she is able to "jammed" with her friends. My boy was not interested in group playing hence he stopped after 2 years with Yamaha and switch to ABRSM.

Music learning is a journey not a destination. If the child are ready to take an exam by all means go ahead. The teacher and the student are the best candidates to decide on this. Exam should be viewed as an encouragement to go further and not as an competition to finished the course earlier.

mon
29-11-2005, 10:00 AM
Every kids are scared of waiting for his turn to take test. hahaha...including me too!!!

Hi..sometimes all the pressure and rushing leads to nervousness before one enters the exam hall..I've experienced this first-hand..tho as perfectly prepared as possible, ..but then still, I would play some wrong notes or forget something!

And then I realised, that I'm human, afterall.. and thank goodness!

No mind can work like a computer and there has to be a moment when it could just turn off for a second..Who can say they had never played a wrong note, and it's always a spotless, perfect performance on the piano..

There's always somebody who's had some bad and embarrasing experience at one point or another..confusion and frustration could grow if parents themselves are not supportive...supportive in the sense of being sympathetic over a messy performance or even failures at piano exams. Or parents who could not understand when the teacher says 'no, not yet' to piano exams..not for that year, next year maybe..and let the young one play and learn without the pressures of exams. Teachers, they do know best.

Like it or not, we would seldom find another Bach, Mozart or Beethoven just to name a few..or even Maksim, Vanessa Mae, Richard Clayderman? or Kenny G perhaps? these great composers and performers, have spent hours upon hours polishing up their skills and technique..and tho they were the real talents and geniuses in their own rights, they too, have worked hard in a most disciplined way. Each has his/her own unique style in learning, whatever method one uses, practise do, makes perfect.

mon
29-11-2005, 10:07 AM
Hello

How about Madame Mon inviting us to listen to her play some classical overtures/tunes ;)

Tq

Haha..you ready for some 'action' from me? I could play you something over the phone..err..if I can't invite you over for some reasons..

And, I believe Alex and the rest can play just as well too..each would have a different style and intepretation to a piece..music is afterall, a freedom in expression.

Thanks Ski, and keep in touch. :)

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 10:20 AM
Both my 2 kids started their piano lessons when they were 4 years old. They took the Yamaha Course. The girl finished her Student Grade ( appro 8 years). When she was Std 1 she took the ABRSM . Both the courses complement each other. I noticed Yamaha trained her hearing and ABRSM trained her note reading and her technique in playing. Yamaha trained her to play in a group.As she is in her teen now she is able to "jammed" with her friends. My boy was not interested in group playing hence he stopped after 2 years with Yamaha and switch to ABRSM.

Music learning is a journey not a destination. If the child are ready to take an exam by all means go ahead. The teacher and the student are the best candidates to decide on this. Exam should be viewed as an encouragement to go further and not as an competition to finished the course earlier.

Bingo! - especially for the word: "complement". It was never my intention to mean that one method is better than the other. Just that which is more suited to the person involved. It is just my belief is that most people want to play music for social reasons, the piece of paper is just by the way. That is why I have been saying: Learn for fun first with the skill of the *art of making music*; the "grammar" and "details" can come once one learns to appreciate and love music with all its intricacies.

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 10:25 AM
Haha..you ready for some 'action' from me? I could play you something over the phone..err..if I can't invite you over for some reasons..

And, I believe Alex and the rest can play just as well too..each would have a different style and intepretation to a piece..music is afterall, a freedom in expression.

Thanks Ski, and keep in touch. :)

You want to hear me play? No problem. Just donate RM125 to Charity for Blind and Visually Impaired Children and I will personally play you 2 songs: 1. A medley of 2 popular songs 2. An original composition in tribute to a popular singer who passed away 10 years ago. I will also treat you to a 8 course dinner. And after that I will treat you to at least 20 other songs played solo and orchestral style by my students.

Game for it?

mon
29-11-2005, 10:30 AM
You want to hear me play? etc..

Game for it?

Who says I wanna hear you play? Or vice versa??

And NO. I'm not game for it. And please..do not involve me in any of your business promotions. Full stop from me.

And God bless you for all the charity works you are doing, Alex.

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 11:50 AM
And, I believe Alex and the rest can play just as well too..

Ahh... you quoted the above mah. So this is the best reference point for those who asked for performance to pick up the thread of conversation lor. Anybody interested can come lor.

No offence meant (not for you to answer but a question posted to the forum) but why is it that whenever a piano teacher or piano student is asked to perform off the cuff, most of them will decline ah? Whereas, a musician off the street or at the lounge will just play you almost anything you want? Even if they can't do it there and then, they will tell you to come back in a few days time to hear it?

Considering the level of education, the former should have more resources and capabilities than the latter, isn't it?

idolfan
29-11-2005, 11:54 AM
Relax lah people..

This thread was initiated for couple of reasons.. to reassure myself that I do not need to compel my son to exams coz I feel it is too much pressure at young age and it will not be pleasure anymore. If he likes to do it when he is maybe 12 its up to him..

I also wanted other parents to realize that heh.. you don't need to get your kids to do exams too early in their musical journey., Alex introduced the playbyear discussion and I think its great that there are such options available. Yes Orchi. thxs for those references., I too personally believe and have seen it with my son's development that intro to music is very important for child's overall development...

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 12:12 PM
Relax lah people..

This thread was initiated for couple of reasons.. to reassure myself that I do not need to compel my son to exams coz I feel it is too much pressure at young age and it will not be pleasure anymore. If he likes to do it when he is maybe 12 its up to him..

I also wanted other parents to realize that heh.. you don't need to get your kids to do exams too early in their musical journey., Alex introduced the playbyear discussion and I think its great that there are such options available. Yes Orchi. thxs for those references., I too personally believe and have seen it with my son's development that intro to music is very important for child's overall development...

Oh, I am very relaxed. And having fun too. Being able to perform gives a 'fantastic high' that no drugs can ever match!

Anyway, an interesting and important point for those who are learning music: Beside the education you receive, you will also pick up the habits of your mentor.

So choose your mentor carefully. When your mentor plays for you to show you how a song should be played, you will pick up very, very much faster. My estimate currently is 12 times faster than if the student is just asked to play from the score alone.

And if your mentor has showmanship, the student will also tend to follow suit.

There are the little, little intangibles and articulations that are not easily preceived on the written page. It has to be heard and felt. Listening from a CD or tape helps a lot but there is nothing like having some performing the passage to give you that 'extra' inspiration.

orchipalar
29-11-2005, 12:49 PM
Originally quoted by Mon: And, I believe Alex and the rest can play just as well too..each would have a different style and intepretation to a piece..music is afterall, a freedom in expression.Err...Orchi sees the above being a complimentary remarks...ahem...n nothing more than that...:)

Originally quoted by Alex: Ahh... you quoted the above mah. So this is the best reference point for those who asked for performance to pick up the thread of conversation lor. Anybody interested can come lor.

No offence meant (not for you to answer but a question posted to the forum) but why is it that whenever a piano teacher or piano student is asked to perform off the cuff, most of them will decline ah? Whereas, a musician off the street or at the lounge will just play you almost anything you want? Even if they can't do it there and then, they will tell you to come back in a few days time to hear it?

Considering the level of education, the former should have more resources and capabilities than the latter, isn't it?
Err...Orchi believes...between a musical educator and a musical performer...the good educator may not be a better performer...n a better performer may not necessarily be a good educator... :)

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 01:08 PM
Err...Orchi believes...between a musical educator and a musical performer...the good educator may not be a better performer...n a better performer may not necessarily be a good educator... :)

Vely, vely correct, Orchi. No need to be the best performer to be a good educator. But to be a good educator, it is good to lead by example lah. Not necessary to be another Liszt or an outstanding performer but must know know to impart the idea across and personally show the student how to play lah. When you lead by example, the impression becomes very deeply ingrained in the mentee's mind; more than words alone can do. Correct or not?

fatslab
29-11-2005, 02:28 PM
No offence meant (not for you to answer but a question posted to the forum) but why is it that whenever a piano teacher or piano student is asked to perform off the cuff, most of them will decline ah? Whereas, a musician off the street or at the lounge will just play you almost anything you want? Even if they can't do it there and then, they will tell you to come back in a few days time to hear it?

Considering the level of education, the former should have more resources and capabilities than the latter, isn't it?

Alex, afterall, I don't think your are modest at all. After reading all your posting, and this really tell me that you are very self-moderation with your speeches, quite subtle and not very provocative but arrogant. Personally, a better topic to discuss this will be "How To Overcome Your Fear For Practical Exam". Don't you think so? Your are implying that you are a better teacher and you are challenging others (in a very subtle manner)? By the way, no offence.

LXDGRT
29-11-2005, 02:51 PM
Alex, afterall, I don't think your are modest at all. After reading all your posting, and this really tell me that you are very self-moderation with your speeches, quite subtle and not very provocative but arrogant. Personally, a better topic to discuss this will be "How To Overcome Your Fear For Practical Exam". Don't you think so? Your are implying that you are a better teacher and you are challenging others (in a very subtle manner)? By the way, no offence.

Thanks for the analysis, fren. Looks like we are the same kind, right? Anyway this is out of topic for this forum. Let's discuss via PM so as not to disturb this thread.

mon
29-11-2005, 05:45 PM
When you lead by example, the impression becomes very deeply ingrained in the mentee's mind; more than words alone can do. Correct or not?

Err..correct wor...U are ok Alex. I'm actually quite happy you mentioned this. :)

mon
29-11-2005, 05:46 PM
Err...Orchi sees the above being a complimentary remarks...ahem...n nothing more than that...:)



Thank you Orchi..:)

mon
29-11-2005, 05:48 PM
but why is it that whenever a piano teacher or piano student is asked to perform off the cuff, most of them will decline ah?

Considering the level of education, the former should have more resources and capabilities than the latter, isn't it?

But this, I believe, you were just quoting from your own experience as a teacher and of your own students huh.
Are you very sure most teachers meaning including your kind self, don't play for your students? Funny.
Unless you were quoting me, which I believe I would only share with you more on how I teach, perhaps 'show' you, play for you... if I had liked your style of writing in the first place.

It's only wise we do not put ourselves high & mighty above the rest..just to prove a point. And no one can say they have learnt it all..not even my current professor..if someone could, really know it all, have my salutes.

Err..did you imply that you could play just about anything at all? Or were my eyes blurry...Or something like you could teach someone, to be like a musician off the street or at the lounge who would just play you almost anything you want? Err..Ok, no comments. Well, will see, perhaps I would have time to listen to you afterall. :)

You could pm me if you wish to continue.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 12:04 AM
But this, I believe, you were just quoting from your own experience as a teacher and of your own students huh.
Are you very sure most teachers meaning including your kind self, don't play for your students? Funny.
Unless you were quoting me, which I believe I would only share with you more on how I teach, perhaps 'show' you, play for you... if I had liked your style of writing in the first place.

It's only wise we do not put ourselves high & mighty above the rest..just to prove a point. And no one can say they have learnt it all..not even my current professor..if someone could, really know it all, have my salutes.

Err..did you imply that you could play just about anything at all? Or were my eyes blurry...Or something like you could teach someone, to be like a musician off the street or at the lounge who would just play you almost anything you want? Err..Ok, no comments. Well, will see, perhaps I would have time to listen to you afterall. :)

You could pm me if you wish to continue.

I could PM you but I think some points here are useful for aspiring students and also for parents to be wiser in choosing teachers for their children:

1. Not implying you as mentioned before. Having worked at one of the world's largest music establishment for a number of years, I have noticed this disturbing trend among the music teachers and students - many always declining to play in public with the common excuse: "no book" and also the big emphasis on passing examinations. So the only "public" performance is 3 exam songs a year. How to enjoy music lessons like this?

And even if they do perform, there is little or no musicality. And I find this detrimental to the quality of students produced. It is also the reason why students find lessons boring. That is also one of the reason why I quit the establishment to find a better way to do things.

And let's just say that the layman is not stupid. I met a customer in his house many years ago who bought something from me. Along the course of conversation, he mentioned that he did not want to send his children to the neighbouring teacher because although he hears her student play, he has never heard her playing at all throughout the years he has been there. I take it that he believes that a person who does not practice his/her craft in performance will be hard put to impart the skill to his/her underlings. And I tend to agree with him. I have one teacher who was always reluctant to perform and as a result, her students always end up at the bottom of quality scale when I do spot checks and assessments.

I therefore made it a point that all teachers under my wings and myself perform to keep ourselves in shape, no matter how initially insecure they are. They are also to create groove tracks for the students to enhance their musicality. And guess what: quality of students rose dramatically too. Students who learnt for less than a year could articulate well enough to make the piano or keyboard "sing" and also play ensemble.

2. And yep, nobody has learnt everything yet. I am still researching ways to make people learn faster and better. Currently my record is 12 times faster and I am close to a breakthrough to make the quality even better.

About the "high and mighty" part: there is always the tendency for a newbie who throws in ideas controversial to mainstream ideas to be branded arrogant. The same thing happened to Galileo when he questioned his professor on the professor's assumption that heavy objects fall faster than light objects. Even after proving the theory wrong, he is still branded an upstart. But then, so what: the world benefitted from his discovery. So that is the stand I too adopt as long as it is the truth.

3. And lastly, it is possible to teach most people to teach themselves to work out songs themselves (unless he is plain lazy or falls into the 5% tone-deaf category). The ability depends on the amount and level of training given after assessing their talent level.

Lots of facts here to digest already so shall stop here.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 12:28 AM
Aiyah, not so extreme lah. In terms of statistics, most people who took up music lessons through mainstream methods end up giving up and only a few made it to college lah. How to continue in a subject when you find "no fun" in it? I doubt anybody can be pushed for so many years in something they don't like and then make anything substantial out of it.
Err...Alex:)...what kind of statistics have ya got on this...Please share?

It is better to pursue something with passion. And I guess those who can make it to college will have more music sense in them than the hundreds of thousands of others who fell off.
Err...OK...would you know then...how many 'beginners' would pick up a musical instrument...without much formal training...n later drop it in their shelves...collecting dust?

n BTW...would ya know how many school...college or Unis... dropouts were there everyday...in any disciplines?

So, that is to say that, the chances of you reaching stardom with mainstream music lessons is much narrower. Reason? This is what an acquaintance in US said when I wrote to him about this subject:
Err...again here...how many law students dropout before reaching their goals...like never becoming lawyers or legal advisers...ahem...same could be said about many dropouts of other disciplines too...isn't it...like doctors...engineers...accountants...etc. etc.?

"....I studied music in college. I met many people who were very spontaneous and could play by ear, then they started to study "the rules" and were told they couldn't do what they had been doing for ages. Their spontaneity died.

I value the music education I received, but to me the goal of learning the rules is so that you can move beyond them. In my opinion, music comes from the heart and soul, not from rules in a book. The rules should help you find your voice, but, as you know, for many people that doesn't work.

Good luck in your efforts, Don Kraig"
Err...IF ya don't mind Orchi asking here...of whom Don Kraig...were you referring to...?

Hope that shed some light.Err...by all means...Please SHED more...TQ:)

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 01:05 AM
There is such a thing as "approaching the subject wrongly" in the 1st place. Now that you are *scarred* for it, you viewed learning music as a tough subject. However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime. And enjoying themselves too.
Err...Alex:)...IF ya don't mind...Orchi recalls you naming a couple of 'famous' musicians previously when asked about the same question by Orchi...were there MORE?

Secondly...ahem...little Orchis hate maths in school n kindie...n even dislike the tutors there...n at times they fear taking tests too...so how? would you suggest Orchi goes about handling this education problems...?

Maybe you should let your children learn music the way these musicians learnt music. It's very interesting to know how they do it so effortlessly and effectively when many of you have to work so hard to achieve it. No self consciousness, had plenty of fun themselves while entertaining others, so confident, etc. vs. the self-conscious exam student, unwilling to play when relatives and friend come and tried to coax you to, etc. etc.
Err...please help Orchi more here...Orchi thought...confidence is the result of skills obtain thru vigorous training...n close guidance...?

Ok, enough said, otherwise the moderator will think I am trying to advertise, blah blah blah. Suffice it to say the "learning music is extremely easy". Just do a bit of homework on this matter and you will find the answer for yourself and your children. "If the student is ready, the *right* teacher shall appear."
Err...for the life of Orchi...youngest of Orchis are a bit curious n keen to learn music...n sing...ahem...the eldest's eyes were said to sparkle...whenever..he is in music class at school...ahem...how is Orchi to know...when they are ready or not...n how is Orchi to know...when would the right teacher comes along...???

Ahem...thought the saying is right..."seek n one shall find"...?:)

BTW...IF ya don't mind again Orchi asking this...otherthan you...who else or which other experts...would agree n say that learning music...is as easy as you have claim it to be...???

Err...when there is so few of your musical talents around...how are parents from all over the country...going to seek...the *right* teachers to teach their offsprings...??? :)

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:12 AM
Wah! Quite a mouthful to shed light on lah.

1. The dropout statistics came from a music magazine I subscribed to some years back. Never thought that I would make refence to it so I never kept the records.

2. For your 2nd question, this one came from an Australian University that many who took formal lessons tend to close their instrument forever once they completed their grade whereas those who play "by ear" tends to continue for the rest of their lives. Again, because I never thought that I will refer to it again, I chucked the document under a huge pile in my storeroom. So dunno where to find it now.

3. You see ah: This is akin to what a Datuk just told me 2 days ago. He said that because he is loaded, he never took a lot of things seriously because he could afford it. And therefore he never pursued playing the piano with gusto like how a poorer person would "die" for it. The analogy is: When something is easily available (through a college, university, etc.) many tends not to complete it or they just drag their feet just enough to get that "piece of paper". And 1 music college in Klang Valley is doing just that: teach almost nothing but issuing the piece of paper which is what the student really wanted. At the same time, my MBA staff who is a former lecturer speaks of horror stories how he has to "pass" those who don't even deserve a pass. So if the majority of students are "mediocre", how to be outstanding?

When when a person of lesser means but with passion for music picks up the instrument and loved it so much, you think it he will drop it on the shelf to collect dust so easily? Nah....

4. Don Kraig is a career musician in the US whom I discovered while searching for articles on music for my research. Found his email and wrote to him. Long time ago.

Hope this is enough for you. Some of your statements (or rather questions) were not really that clear.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 01:35 AM
Originally quoted by Alex: Wah! Quite a mouthful to shed light on lah.....
Hope this is enough for you. Some of your statements (or rather questions) were not really that clear.
Err...dear Alex:)...Orchi takes any forms of education very seriously...n especially when it comes to children educations...it is therefore...NOT supposed to be taken any lightly...

And you...being a master of your field of music education...should know what 'discouragement' means to your students...OR...to those that are learning from other tutors in the same discipline...

Err...Orchi may be dead wrong in here...but Orchi sees MOST of your comments(in plenty of mouthfuls obviously)...come in a very 'discouraging' manner...when it comes to topics of mainstream methods...

At the same time...Orchi for one...sees that some of your sweeping comments could be seen as 'misleading'...n without solid grounds...:o

BUT...please allow Orchi to ask you this...n Orchi would try very best to ask it clearly this time...so as Orchi could get a STRAIGHT answers from you...

IF ya don't mind Orchi asking...in your expertice in the field of musical 'training' or if ya prefer to call it as musical 'discovery'...err...have you ever experienced...any of your students...wanting to quit or has even given up on your 'training' or 'discovery' methods...???

IF so...why? :)

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:49 AM
1. Plenty more. Search the internet and check their background. Tupai has already given a handful besides me. Unless you want to see the newspaper clippings of some I have at my office but that's limited.

2. Maths is not my forte. Music is. Check with those who have "turned" their children around.

3. True but if you want faster results, invest in a bit of time to do some research for faster more, effective methods which I am sure you are very capable of doing, judging by your postings.

4. Do a talent evaluation. Once talent is quantified, then the next question will be the level of desire to use it. That one, only your little Orchi can decide, or rather Big Orchi can "feel". After all, Big Orchi knows the character of "Little Orchi".

4a. Famous person said: "By the fruits, you shall know....". When Little Orchi is showing results happily, then the right teacher has come

4b. Ever had the experience: When you are ready to buy a Honda, suddenly the whole town is full of Honda's? Same analogy.

4b I am not going to answer for others but I know that I can make learning music a lot lot easier. I am a NLP practitioner and I used some of the techniques to cut right through the filters the human mind puts up to achieve the results. If my NLP technique is more well developed, I believe I can get even better results. However the subject must be willing to trust me completely.

4c I am in the process of imparting this skill to the "right" people around the country. If I can't find the right people for the desired area, too bad lah for the parents. Next alternative is for them to come to Klang Valley for a period of time lor. And this is what some parents/clients from Hong Kong, England and Australia did.

Whew! Another mouthful. Hope that is sufficient. PM me lah unless you feel the questions you intend to pose is important for the forum.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 02:03 AM
Err...dear Alex:)...Orchi takes any forms of education very seriously...n especially when it comes to children educations...it is therefore...NOT supposed to be taken any lightly...

And you...being a master of your field of music education...should know what 'discouragement' means to your students...OR...to those that are learning from other tutors in the same discipline...

Err...Orchi may be dead wrong in here...but Orchi sees MOST of your comments(in plenty of mouthfuls obviously)...come in a very 'discouraging' manner...when it comes to topics of mainstream methods...

At the same time...Orchi for one...sees that some of your sweeping comments could be seen as 'misleading'...n without solid grounds...:o

BUT...please allow Orchi to ask you this...n Orchi would try very best to ask it clearly this time...so as Orchi could get a STRAIGHT answers from you...

IF ya don't mind Orchi asking...in your expertice in the field of musical 'training' or if ya prefer to call it as musical 'discovery'...err...have you ever experienced...any of your students...wanting to quit or has even given up on your 'training' or 'discovery' methods...???

IF so...why? :)

In any field, there will be always be those who drop out. In my case it is usually for 2 reasons:

1. They overcommitted themselves and therefore did not make the time needed (even though not very much) to doing what was required and therefore faded away.

2. They are very resistant to being taught by my method. They want me to teach them using "their method". Very hard to deliver results this way.

Oh yes: 1 more reason: The talent assessment was faulty (No system is 100% foolproof) and the student was accepted for training. However, by the 4th lesson, if nothing is forthcoming and the case is unsalvagable, I or the teacher will terminate the case and refund the full amount despite 4 lessons of time spent. So far only 2 cases like that.

As for the "discouraging statements", well, again: famous man has said "By the fruits, you shall know..." IMHO, I see too many potential 'fruits' unable to bloom. That is why I decided I wanted to try to make a difference.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 04:07 AM
Originally quoted by Alex: In any field, there will be always be those who drop out. In my case it is usually for 2 reasons:
Err...TQ Alex:) at least now...Orchi gets some straight answers from you...so can Orchi concludes that...in your field of expertice in musical 'training' n 'discovery'...you yourself has somewhat faced rejections n failures...?

1. They overcommitted themselves and therefore did not make the time needed (even though not very much) to doing what was required and therefore faded away.
OK...with this straight answer from you...one...n including yourself would also realize then...that in the mainstream methods...'students' would fail for the same or similar reason also...right?

2. They are very resistant to being taught by my method. They want me to teach them using "their method". Very hard to deliver results this way.
Err...so the same can be understood n applied from here also...n PERHAPS...there may never be ONE set of sure or EASY methods to be 'trained' n 'discovered' to be musical talents...BUT judging from all available 'resources'...as compared with your mastery in particular(however revolutionary it may be)...the long history of the mainstream methods to 'learn' n be 'disciplined'...could offer a better n time tested 'option'...open to MORE 'potentials' candidates....right?

Oh yes: 1 more reason: The talent assessment was faulty (No system is 100% foolproof) and the student was accepted for training. However, by the 4th lesson, if nothing is forthcoming and the case is unsalvagable, I or the teacher will terminate the case and refund the full amount despite 4 lessons of time spent. So far only 2 cases like that.[/B]
Err...Orchi had earlier assumed by your previous persistence that...'learning' music...should be about having fun...ahem...BUT only now...Orchi realises from your additional re-assuring reason in here that...the 'potential' candidates were somewhat required to undergo some strict selection processes(tests?) too...n despite the so called 'only' 2 cases like that so far...Orchi believes...as you n your mastery progress further...err...there would be MORE cases like that...to come.

As for the "discouraging statements", well, again: famous man has said "By the fruits, you shall know..."
Err...TQ for your honesty...but Orchi believes you may have misinterpreted the 'famous' man's saying...

Ahem...IF allowed to...the way Orchi would have interpreted it...would be MORE simpler instead..."By the fruits, you shall know...n realize that...there is NO Short Cuts to planting a fruit tree...IF one EXPECTs to gain a Better HARVEST."

Quoted by Alex:): "IMHO, I see too many potential 'fruits' unable to bloom. That is why I decided I wanted to try to make a difference."

Err...again Orchi sincerely wishes to suggest...that you should look back again...n look back farther you should...on your philosophy...critically.

Ahem...there AIN'T NEVER be FRUITS(being success story) without flowers(accreditions or qualifications)...which AIN'T NEVER gonna be blooming...without FIRST...being subjected to:...PROPER Planting Methods(coaching...determination n hardwork)...Timely Weather(Fate or as in 'discovery')...Suitable Soils(Parents' initiative...nurturing n encouragement)...n LAST but NOT least...Good Seeds(the Child...or 'Candidates')...:)

BTW...who is Orchi to know about ALL this...err...so please don't take Orchi words for all of it...

However...this PERHAPS...would say it ALL..."You Shall Reap What You Sow" :)

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 09:25 AM
1. Ahhh.... the question would be numbers. 2468 successful completions out of 4076 attendance (with more moving towards completion) is definitely a better ratio than current numbers. And 2 refunds out of 4076 students is better proof that people are more talented than what is currently assumed. I have never professed that I will not face rejections/failures but I know that I can give more hope and more success stories where it matters. (People may assume I am sounding arrogant here already....*shrug*)

2a. I never said my *discovery* is the only way to go. However, I did say that if your intention is to have fun and enjoy music, it is better to learn 'the art of making music first'; If you want to strengthen your skills, then go for your studies specific to the instrument desired; And that both are complementary(Check the thread)....If all your *five fingers* can be all different, how can it be possible to be 1 size fit all? Cannot be so naive lah.

2b. And I am not purposely rejecting people. It should be more positively worded as "How to maximize success for the aspirants in my field?". Any professional will do that. And to that end, I have at least developed a better qualifying process to minimize the dashing of aspirant's hopes. Of course, in the education world, one can easily get away with the excuse "Well, you didn't practice enough" but where is the satisfaction of taking people's money and then being unable to deliver what they wanted? So better to do a "reality test" to size them up first and then tell them what they are up against before they part with their money. Simply put at another angle: You worked real hard for the money you earned? right. Surely you want to ensure better success should your "little Orchi" wants to take up music lessons, right? Must get good value for money, mah. If it is tested and proven that "Little Orchi" has better talent for other things than music, would you still want to pay premium price for music lessons and then invest in at least 3K for a piano? You would think very hard, right?

2c. And BTW, my area here has its own set of disciplines. Difference is that, there is *more rewarding fun* happening here.

2d. Talking about time tested systems, well: Mainstream music has a 500 yrs history dating back to the Renaissance. Playing music "by ear" however, has existed since man discovered music which is easily 6000+ years back. And guess what, how do composers like Bach, Mozart or Beethoven make music in the 1st place? Did they write down all the notes first before playing or did they use their ears and feelings to get that "song" swimming in their head which only when perfected to what they want, then penned it down into musical notes. Velly important question here loh.

3a. I believe you made an assumption that the alternative method is a "short cut". It is not. Effectively delivering what people wanted would be the better word. Delivering the specific things that would make people who wanted to play for fun and enjoyment does not dilute quality. If it takes a person 1 years 9 months to play and understand music like a lounge pianist, would you rather still sign up for a 10 years course to achieve the same results? And possibly learn things that are getting archiaic to fill up the gaps? Let's see, how many of you want to learn 4 part harmony for fun and enjoyment?; how many of you want to learn the Gregorian and Latin terms which when you open a song book nowadays, are hardly used in your everyday life? Times are changing. Systems should change to suit the times.

3b. Discipline? Discipline is great but what like of life is it that you spend 2-3 hours a day practising when there are homework to be done, extracurricular activities to be attended, family functions to attend, etc. Even Peter Erskine's teacher has more wisdom:

"John Erskine learned the most valuable lesson of his life, when he was only fourteen years old. His piano teacher, asked him, "How many times a week do you practice, and how long do you practice each time?" He told her that he tried to practice once a day for an hour or more. "Don't do that," she responded. "When you grow up, time won't come in long stretches. Practice in minutes, whenever you can find them-five or ten before school, after lunch, between chores. Spread your practice throughout the day, and music will become a part of your life." Her advice obviously worked. Erskine became a concert pianist who performed with the New York Philharmonic, and he later served as president of the Juilliard School of Music and director of the Metropolitan Opera Association. He also went on to teach literature at Columbia University and wrote more than forty-five books. His most famous work, "The Private Life of Helen of Troy", was written as he commuted to Columbia."

....obviously Peter Erskine got his BIG HARVEST despite the "haphazard" time spent. The keyword is is "being effective" aka "quality, not quantity". That's a great and better discipline to learn than mugging at the instrument for a long time.

4. As to the strict entry test, answer is as above. You can say that "We are serious about helping you to have fun." Think about it. It is not a paradox.

5. Accreditations? Let's backtrack a bit ah. To get accreditation, there must be prototypes and working papers done to prove that you have a system that works. To have a system that works, you need to test it out to get the statistics to back you up before the Queen of England or any authorative bodies will award you the word "royal" to attach to your system. (Queen not stupid mah). So before any system become accredited, it was non-accreditated first with lots of believers and later they got the recognition. Unless of course, the accreditation was bought with "Kopi-o" and "strings" lah. That one I got no comments.

5b. Hard work? And who says my system requires no hard work? The perk here on my side is "enjoyable, rewarding hard work".

There's just too many assumptions and prejudices lah regarding alternatives. But that's a fact of life. Analogy: "Today's mainstream religious bodies were once branded cults with lots of prejudices against them." So, no problem, like the "cults", I will let time elapse....to let the alternative methods become mainstream. In the US, this method has already taken root.

fatslab
30-11-2005, 10:29 AM
Wah brother! You really have so much to talk and full of praises (for your type of course) Play By Ear! I'm now wondering if you only play pop music or all types of music, with feelings and etc..Let's say the Beethoven Sonatas or any of the Liszt works? Or any of the Chopin Ballades and Etudes? Scriabin Etudes? What else ah. Debussy, Rachmaninov, Bach etc. (Got all these names from the internet!) Sure you say you know but you sure you can also play all these accurately with feelings, expression, style and etc. Or you just improvise on them or sight read them as best as you can? We as stupid fellows won't know a thing. You tell us.
If I were to look for a teacher, I prefer someone who can play the classicals too.
No offence.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 10:42 AM
Originally quoted by Alex: "John Erskine learned the most valuable lesson of his life, when he was only fourteen years old. His piano teacher, asked him, "How many times a week do you practice, and how long do you practice each time?" He told her that he tried to practice once a day for an hour or more. "Don't do that," she responded. "When you grow up, time won't come in long stretches. Practice in minutes, whenever you can find them-five or ten before school, after lunch, between chores. Spread your practice throughout the day, and music will become a part of your life." Her advice obviously worked.
John Erskine
born Oct. 5, 1879, New York City
died June 2, 1951, New York City

U.S. educator, musician, and novelist noted for energetic, skilled work in several different fields.

Erskine received his Ph.D. from Columbia University in 1903 and taught there from 1909 to 1937, earning a reputation as a learned, witty teacher and lecturer specializing in Elizabethan literature.

In 1925, when Erskine was in his 40s, his first novel was published. Soon after that, he appeared as a piano soloist for the New York Philharmonic, beginning a distinguished career as a concert pianist. He also served as president of the Juilliard School of Music, director of the Juilliard Musical Foundation, and director of the Metropolitan Opera Association.

Erskine wrote more than 45 books. He was particularly successful with his early satirical novels, which are legends retold with updated views on morality and society. These works include The Private Life of Helen of Troy (1925) and Adam and Eve (1927), the story of how Adam adjusts to his newfound social life with two women. Erskine also co-edited the Cambridge History of American Literature, 3 vol. (1917–19). He described various facets of his life in The Memory of Certain Persons (1947), My Life as a Teacher (1948), and My Life in Music (1950).

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9032948

Peter Erskine is best known for his versatility and ardent love of working in various musical settings. He began his career at the age of 18 with the Stan Kenton Orchestra, and has since played with such groups as Weather Report and Steps Ahead; the big bands of Maynard Ferguson, Bob Mintzer and Kenny Wheeler; ensembles such as the BBC Symphony Orchestra, Ensemble Modern London Symphony and L.A. Philharmonic; Steely Dan, Joni Mitchell, the Yellowjackets, Diana Krall, plus many other musicians, recording over 400 albums. He leads his own trio which records for ECM and his own record label FUZZY MUSIC; he tours and teaches extensively, and has won numerous awards for his work, including a "Grammy," the Modern Drummer Reader Poll/Mainstream Jazz Drummer category (6 times), and an Honorary Doctor of Music degree from the Berklee School of Music. His latest book is Vol. 1 of "Drumset Essentials," a book and CD trilogy being published by Alfred Music. Hudson Music has released his performance video "Peter Erskine Trio, Live at JazzBaltica" and Hal Leonard has published his acclaimed book "The Drum Perspective." Peter was the soloist along with Evelyn Glennie at the world premiere of a new Double Concerto for Percussion composed by Mark-Anthony Turnage in London at the Proms, 2000 with Sir Andrew Davis conducting. Peter·s website is petererskine.com, and his newest recording is "Badlands" with Alan Pasqua & Dave Carpenter.

Erskine is a graduate of the Interlochen Arts Academy in Michigan, and studied percussion with George Gaber at Indiana University.

Peter Erskine began playing the drums at the age of four.

http://www.petererskine.com/biographyindex.htm

Err...Alex:)...would appreciate you could provide additional references...to your source of independent informations...n for the benefits of others...it would save them a lot of time n effort to understand which or what n whom you were using...when you cross reference with in support of your opinions or comments...ahem...for an example here...
Originally quoted by Alex: ....obviously Peter Erskine got his BIG HARVEST despite the "haphazard" time spent. The keyword is is "being effective" aka "quality, not quantity". That's a great and better discipline to learn than mugging at the instrument for a long time.
Err...as for the rest of your responses...Orchi shall get back to them...at an appropriate time later...TQ :)

fatslab
30-11-2005, 10:44 AM
2. They are very resistant to being taught by my method. They want me to teach them using "their method". Very hard to deliver results this way.



If you say your method is fun and so enjoyable, your students sure don't drop out one right? They should know what to expect before paying you the money but why would they want you to teach them 'their methods' anyhow? Very contradicting la you. You also said it's too bad for the parents if they waste money sending their kid to the 'other kind' of teacher. So you sure if I send my kid to you, I would never ever regret it? You totally sound like me doing sales and marketing for my products. By the way, no offence again.

fatslab
30-11-2005, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally quoted by Alex: ....obviously Peter Erskine got his BIG HARVEST despite the "haphazard" time spent. The keyword is is "being effective" aka "quality, not quantity". That's a great and better discipline to learn than mugging at the instrument for a long time.

Brother Orchi, thanks for the quote. Now I remember the word I wanted to ask Alex too.

Quality Your teachers and you can play up to what kind of standard. Don't tell me only easy sonatinas and short piano pieces only ah! AIyo, of course not right or not??

At the end of the day, if my kid wants to learn the proper way, not for fun anymore, disaster la. Isn't it better to learn the 'proper way' and then at the same time the teacher can teach some fun songs in the class? I as a parent would want my teacher to be more flexible, not only play for fun la.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 11:37 AM
Wah brother! You really have so much to talk and full of praises (for your type of course) Play By Ear! I'm now wondering if you only play pop music or all types of music, with feelings and etc..Let's say the Beethoven Sonatas or any of the Liszt works? Or any of the Chopin Ballades and Etudes? Scriabin Etudes? What else ah. Debussy, Rachmaninov, Bach etc. (Got all these names from the internet!) Sure you say you know but you sure you can also play all these accurately with feelings, expression, style and etc. Or you just improvise on them or sight read them as best as you can? We as stupid fellows won't know a thing. You tell us.
If I were to look for a teacher, I prefer someone who can play the classicals too.
No offence.

Aisayman! Read in detail lah. I am not praising my course lah. I am defending and presenting this methodology lah which I believe is truly bona-fide and useful for people who want to learn music for social reasons. And you can see the statements are mostly backed with facts, figures and references. Why? You still doubt me ah?

I perceive you have the notion the above said methodology is for pop and modern music. So I shall clarify: The Art of Making Music is practised by all composers lah all the way back to classical times. Mozart, Bach, Beethoven all had to use their ears and feelings to work out their compositions first before the penning it down on paper. I believe you can agree that this is a fact? Very seldom you get a musician who writes down all the notes first before playing. And FYI, Mozart is a fantastic improviser. Improvisation is not just for modern age.

And oh, yes! I love classical too. Last time, when I played on the organ, I even turn a couple of them it into an orchestral arrangement - 1 western classical and 1 chinese classical. Now, no more organ, so too bad lor. Just that I chose not to teach in this area as there are enough teachers in the market serving that need. Mon is a great teacher in this area already. Better I cover other areas lah. So too bad, you probably won't choose me as your teacher lah. Anyway, I got no more room for any more students personally.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Quality Your teachers and you can play up to what kind of standard. Don't tell me only easy sonatinas and short piano pieces only ah! AIyo, of course not right or not??

At the end of the day, if my kid wants to learn the proper way, not for fun anymore, disaster la. Isn't it better to learn the 'proper way' and then at the same time the teacher can teach some fun songs in the class? I as a parent would want my teacher to be more flexible, not only play for fun la.

Quality to me is about making your listeners gel with you in your expression of music (whether classical or pop) and enjoy them; not about how many classical tunes you can tuck under your belt (no offence to classical music lovers). Of course you are entitled to your own definition of quality.

Anyway, end of the day, after all the facts discussed and presented, you can choose any methodology you deem fit for your circle of people. After all, your money mah and also the subjects in question are your children mah.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 12:00 PM
If you say your method is fun and so enjoyable, your students sure don't drop out one right? They should know what to expect before paying you the money but why would they want you to teach them 'their methods' anyhow? Very contradicting la you. You also said it's too bad for the parents if they waste money sending their kid to the 'other kind' of teacher. So you sure if I send my kid to you, I would never ever regret it? You totally sound like me doing sales and marketing for my products. By the way, no offence again.

Fren, you being in sales and marketing know human beings better than I do lah. If I say that nobody will drop out, I will make me sound so naive. Human being where got so simple? Everybody comes with their baggages. And you think you can fathom every single one of them? What I can tell you is that there are people who come to me without trust that my method will work for them and they feel more secure if I teach them using methods they are familiar with. And they can't let go. So how? I am sure you being so experienced have encountered situations like this.

Don't take me out of context lah. I said that you should do as much research as possible on the course you intend to take to guage its suitablity for you or your child (in this case by an aptitude test). If this is not done, send to me also waste money lor if I discover much later you or your child has no affinity to music. Just like going to eye doctor when you got stomach problem.

Come on lah. Please don't quote me out of context. Don't just say something for the sake of saying. Next time, I will just stay silent when I get exasperating messages and you should know why.

fatslab
30-11-2005, 12:03 PM
Quality to me is about making your listeners gel with you in your expression of music (whether classical or pop) and enjoy them; not about how many classical tunes you can tuck under your belt (no offence to classical music lovers). Of course you are entitled to your own definition of quality.

Anyway, end of the day, after all the facts discussed and presented, you can choose any methodology you deem fit for your circle of people. After all, your money mah and also the subjects in question are your children mah.

Ahh..you never know how much one can learn from playing a certain composer. The more you play the better but of course must practise and it takes time la. Better for my kid to play me a lovely classical piece of music rather than playing hundreds of pop songs you know. Each composer has a different style and whatever they have composed for us is good enough man. Why would one want to improvise some more? Unless he or she can't read so many taugehs la! Not saying you ah!
Brother, you are the boss la. Me know nothing much. But I will appreciate any teacher by profession not to challenge anyone, not a big show off, be humble and the word will travel, if you are REALLY VERY GOOD. But thanks la for all your information.

fatslab
30-11-2005, 12:08 PM
Next time, I will just stay silent when I get exasperating messages and you should know why.

LOL!!:D No wonder we don't see Mon here liao!

Ok la, full stop and God Bless you too (Mon's style) :D

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 12:16 PM
Ahh..you never know how much one can learn from playing a certain composer. The more you play the better but of course must practise and it takes time la. Better for my kid to play me a lovely classical piece of music rather than playing hundreds of pop songs you know. Each composer has a different style and whatever they have composed for us is good enough man. Why would one want to improvise some more? Unless he or she can't read so many taugehs la! Not saying you ah!
Brother, you are the boss la. Me know nothing much. But I will appreciate any teacher by profession not to challenge anyone, not a big show off, be humble and the word will travel, if you are REALLY VERY GOOD. But thanks la for all your information.

I shall not answer points quoted out of context.

But I can answer some valid points for edification:

Learning other people's style is OK and good but end of the day what happened?
If like Japanese - copy and them improve on it with better quality, then it's fantastic. If they developed their own style, better still.
If like China - copy and produce mostly crap quality products, then waste of time.

And BTW, ever heard of the saying: "What you see in others is actually a mirror of yourself"?

fatslab
30-11-2005, 12:23 PM
I shall not answer points quoted out of context.

But I can answer some valid points for edification:

Learning other people's style is OK and good but end of the day what happened?
If like Japanese - copy and them improve on it with better quality, then it's fantastic. If they developed their own style, better still.
If like China - copy and produce mostly crap quality products, then waste of time.

And BTW, ever heard of the saying: "What you see in others is actually a mirror of yourself"?

Aiyo, luckily I'm still here to give you one more reply. :D
I didn't say my kid must copy exactly, I was saying that she should learn to appreciate what has been composed and feel for the music in her playing thru a certain composer, then later she would anyway, play without the scores (with enough practise) and express freely , in her own style la. But if the other way around, aiyo. From a mozart piece becomes a richard clayderman piece then terrible la. Some more cannot read properly worst!

I actually don't mind if my kid sees herself as the next mozart or something, in the mirror! :D

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 12:24 PM
Originally quoted by Alex:) 3a. I believe you made an assumption that the alternative method is a "short cut". It is not. Effectively delivering what people wanted would be the better word. Delivering the specific things that would make people who wanted to play for fun and enjoyment does not dilute quality. If it takes a person 1 years 9 months to play and understand music like a lounge pianist, would you rather still sign up for a 10 years course to achieve the same results? And possibly learn things that are getting archiaic to fill up the gaps? Times are changing. Systems should change to suit the times.

Originally quoted by Alex: ....obviously Peter Erskine got his BIG HARVEST despite the "haphazard" time spent. The keyword is is "being effective" aka "quality, not quantity". That's a great and better discipline to learn than mugging at the instrument for a long time.
Err...Alex:)...again here...you are being inconsistent n contradicting your own prior persistence n arguments...when you chose...err...Peter or was it John Erskine...as your 'wisdom' as an 'educator'...

5b. Hard work? And who says my system requires no hard work? The perk here on my side is "enjoyable, rewarding hard work".
Err...Orchi recalls few instances in your previous postings...that learning with you...could be EASY...n more effective...thus better success rate...or as you put it simply..."making more money than anyone else..."...??

However, on the other side of the coin, practically all the world's best musicians never went through what you went through and they are making tons more money than you or the exam orientated teachers could ever earn in your lifetime. And enjoying themselves too.

Suffice it to say the "learning music is extremely easy". Just do a bit of homework on this matter and you will find the answer for yourself and your children.
http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=98853&postcount=20

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Err...Orchi recalls few instances in your previous postings...that learning with you...could be EASY...n more effective...thus better success rate...or as you put it simply..."making more money than anyone else..."...??

http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=98853&postcount=20

Ever heard the saying: "If you enjoy what you do, you don't have to work a single day of your life"?

The fact here is that if you look at how we practice our craft, it looks like really hard work to the outsider but among ourselves, we are getting a high that people who are not in the circle will not be able to fathom. And it is not work to us. It is fun. Fun and Easy tends to go together (even though hard work is involved).

I said these "self-taught" musicians made more money.... If you are good in music and want to make the kind of money they make, there are other kinds of work involved.....

GreyShadow
30-11-2005, 12:56 PM
Learning other people's style is OK and good but end of the day what happened?
If like Japanese - copy and them improve on it with better quality, then it's fantastic. If they developed their own style, better still.
If like China - copy and produce mostly crap quality products, then waste of time.


Errr.... OT a bit....
China now is just like post-war Japan, post-war Japan also copy and produce crap quality products... it is thru trial & error, refinement, & innovation (not to forget hardwork also :D) thats gets Japan into something we sees today.... btw... Japan now still copy anything meh?? any example??
Anyway~ Even thou china is doing copy & paste job now.... I foresees in future 10 or 20 years, China will become something like Japan :D

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:00 PM
I didn't say my kid must copy exactly, I was saying that she should learn to appreciate what has been composed and feel for the music in her playing thru a certain composer, then later she would anyway, play without the scores (with enough practise) and express freely , in her own style la. But if the other way around, aiyo. From a mozart piece becomes a richard clayderman piece then terrible la. Some more cannot read properly worst!

I actually don't mind if my kid sees herself as the next mozart or something, in the mirror! :D

At least some things you say here are relevant.

1. You implied earlier must express like what the composer wanted mah. Own style seems to be a no-no. (Or I perceived wrongly?)

2. And who said reading will not be taught? Those who have taken it will know. Again another assumption. Would like to provide you link to check up on the facts but moderator wont allow lah. So if you want the link, then PM me (if you are seriously interested and open minded to know more).

3. You have heard how Richard Clayderman played Mozart or Beethoven yet, have you? Check it out and see. Is it terrible?

I think it would be nice that your child be recognized a Miss "Little Fatslab" (no offence intended - just using your nickname) in her own right and uniqueness than to be branded a Mozart clone. Up to you lah but I would prefer the former.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:03 PM
Errr.... OT a bit....
China now is just like post-war Japan, post-war Japan also copy and produce crap quality products... it is thru trial & error, refinement, & innovation (not to forget hardwork also :D) thats gets Japan into something we sees today.... btw... Japan now still copy anything meh?? any example??
Anyway~ Even thou china is doing copy & paste job now.... I foresees in future 10 or 20 years, China will become something like Japan :D

I guess so. Let's see. Thailand and Taiwan has caught up a bit but still not as fantastic as Japan. Just an analogy lah.

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:15 PM
Ahh..you never know how much one can learn from playing a certain composer. .

What an assumption. You never checked to know that I have gone through such music appreciation training in the Music Production courses I took and just blasted like you know everything. You never even know how much classical materials there are and was in my library or reference materials. And there you are lecturing me.... Please lah, do your homework. *Sigh*

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 01:27 PM
What an assumption. You never checked to know that I have gone through such music appreciation training in the Music Production courses I took and just blasted like you know everything. You never even know how much classical materials there are and was in my library or reference materials. And there you are lecturing me.... Please lah, do your homework. *Sigh*
Err...Alex:)...a quick one here...since ignorant Orchi...is totally unaware of your past endeavors n accomplishments...n then perhaps others may find it useful to know...exactly how long of a distance have you 'travelled' to have 'reached' to your current level of expertice...???

n by all means...Orchi wishes another straight answer from you here...were your 'basic' knowledge or materials that you have studied n kept...helpful to your present 'discovery' of your own limitations or boundaries...???

Ahem...at which time...as gifted as you could have been...how many hours of 'fun n enjoyable work or training' that you had to put up with back then...??

n Lastly here...would you consider yourself to be 'self taught'...?

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 01:50 PM
Not nice to discuss the :distance travelled" here. Moderator may not like it. Will sound like advertising myself. Don't want another encounter. You know where to find me. Just do some Googling at the worst case scenario. My profile is also an open book. Or PM me.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 01:55 PM
What an assumption. You never checked to know that I have gone through such music appreciation training in the Music Production courses I took and just blasted like you know everything. You never even know how much classical materials there are and was in my library or reference materials. And there you are lecturing me.... Please lah, do your homework. *Sigh*

Err...Alex:)...a quick one here...since ignorant Orchi...is totally unaware of your past...

n by all means...Orchi wishes another straight answer from you here...were your 'basic' knowledge or materials that you have studied n kept...helpful to your present 'discovery' of your own limitations or boundaries...???

Ahem...at which time...as gifted as you could have been...how many hours of 'fun n enjoyable work or training' that you had to put up with back then...??

n Lastly here...would you consider yourself to be 'self taught'...?
Err...again Alex:)...it should be save now...since Orchi wouldn't wanna insist that you publish any of your past here...:)

BUT then again...it should be SAVE for you to offer Orchi further knowledge...by answering Orchi's previous questions...TQ:)

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 02:19 PM
Err...again Alex:)...it should be save now...since Orchi wouldn't wanna insist that you publish any of your past here...:)

BUT then again...it should be SAVE for you to offer Orchi further knowledge...by answering Orchi's previous questions...TQ:)

Nope. You want the facts about my accomplishments and distance travelled, see me privately. Those questions are no longer relevant to the group and has nothing edifying to the group. I will just and have put up facts about what I have learnt and discovered which are edifying to the group and nothing else.

Nothing wrong with seeing me personally, isn't it? Then you won't be viewing me through a colored glass.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 03:05 PM
Nope. You want the facts about my accomplishments and distance travelled, see me privately. Those questions are no longer relevant to the group and has nothing edifying to the group. I will just and have put up facts about what I have learnt and discovered which are edifying to the group and nothing else.

Nothing wrong with seeing me personally, isn't it? Then you won't be viewing me through a coloured glass.
Err...Alex:)...you are again seen as evading many of Orchi's questions...which Orchi feels are very relevant matters to this group...

n sorry to say...IIOHO(in ignorant Orchi's honest opinions)...Orchi for one...has NOT been impressed or convinced...from your so called 'facts'...inconsistency...n contradictions...:o

Err...You were the one putting on a pair of tinted glasses...when you came into this thread with your own biased opinions(vested interest) n hidden private agenda(s) to begin with...OPENLY...on matters relating to musical 'training' n 'accreditation' of mainstream methods...from you own committed n LONG lifetime 'learning' n 'discovery'...:o

n also...you may be seen as being a 'discouragement'...to countless of would be 'potentials' n parents...or those whom may be 'jointly pursuing' the musical 'learning' thru conventional n mainstream methods...n whom are also keen forumers of this community website... :)

LXDGRT
30-11-2005, 06:42 PM
Err...Alex:)...you are again seen as evading many of Orchi's questions...which Orchi feels are very relevant matters to this group...

n sorry to say...IIOHO(in ignorant Orchi's honest opinions)...Orchi for one...has NOT been impressed or convinced...from your so called 'facts'...inconsistency...n contradictions...:o

Err...You were the one putting on a pair of tinted glasses...when you came into this thread with your own biased opinions(vested interest) n hidden private agenda(s) to begin with...OPENLY...on matters relating to musical 'training' n 'accreditation' of mainstream methods...from you own committed n LONG lifetime 'learning' n 'discovery'...:o

n also...you may be seen as being a 'discouragement'...to countless of 'potentials' n parents...whom may be 'jointly pursuing' the musical 'learning' thru conventional n mainstream methods...n whom are also be keen forumers of this community website... :)

Ahhh... now the real colors come out.

Facts given are up to you to accept or discard. If you think they are insufficient or not good enough, do your own research lah. Plenty of such info on the web. If you think all the facts I have presented are discouraging and not beneficial, better I stop here.

If you want to know more about my journey and discoveries, just go to my website lah. You know where to find it.

If you think there is vested interest, better I stop here too. I shouldn't influence you any further.

If this is perceived as discouragement, too bad. I see it as opening the eyes of many to see more clearly how to make informed decision.....unless you choose to ignore the plain facts I have stated.

Anyway Galileo and Copernicus and others went through exactly the same situation when new ideas were thrown up that seems to go "head on" with traditional ideas (different subject matter only). Actually it is complementary but dunno why you want to see it as a conflict. So no problem lah. I can live with it. Let time tell.

Points have laid out over 6+ pages. You decide. You are a great researcher and thinker. I am sure you know how to find what you want.

End of discussion for me. I have a concert to run now till 11th December. Any more input, if you want any (maybe not welcome), will be after that.

Bye.

Ski
30-11-2005, 07:08 PM
Hi Alex
Where is your concert, is it open to public and what kind of music? i am game to listen.
Tq

girl2
30-11-2005, 07:12 PM
Points have laid out over 6+ pages. You decide. You are a great researcher and thinker. I am sure you know how to find what you want.

End of discussion for me. I have a concert to run now till 11th December. Any more input, if you want any (maybe not welcome), will be after that.

Bye.

Another abnoscious fellow. Alex Leow is it? Be humble is the best way to go about any profession in life. People will somehow know of your credibility if you are really that fantastic a music instructor. Why other music teachers of this forum chose to be silent? Not because they're not up to your standard, you should think, but they could choose to stay low-profiled, and enjoy the beauty of it all, with a handful of keen students and appreciative parents, mainstream or not.

I may be wrong, but these music teachers have my utmost respect, for they know, but do not boast. Where do they get their students? By recommendations. My neighbour, who works from home, is the best example.

It was a wrong move for you to advertise yourself in the first place. Others, as how I've perceived from their postings, just wanted to share. And no one has made any remark that one method worked better than the other. Only you.

orchipalar
30-11-2005, 08:01 PM
Ahhh... now the real colors come out.
Ahem...Alex:)...there you go again coming to unnecessary conclusions as you have been seen doing before ...setting another example of...that you could NOT even handle questionaires or criticisms on your so called 'training' or 'discovery' n now 'contemplary?' methods of educating approaches...?

Facts given are up to you to accept or discard. If you think they are insufficient or not good enough, do your own research lah. Plenty of such info on the web. If you think all the facts I have presented are discouraging and not beneficial, better I stop here.[/UNQUOTE]
Err...yes that would be seen as a better alternative for you to consider...to stop...or cease to claim your so called 'wisdom' or your so called 'teaching' methods as a 'better' alternatives...which has so far been seen as merely weak sweeping statements... in this thread...unless you be more transparent about the whole thing...
[QUOTE]If you want to know more about my journey and discoveries, just go to my website lah. You know where to find it.
Err...why should there be a need for Orchi or others...to visit your website to gain 'expected' infos which could merely be filled with 'self advertisements or promotions'...ahem...have ya heard of the Canton saying..."mai far charn far hiong"...?

If you think there is vested interest, better I stop here too. I shouldn't influence you any further.
Err...what sorts of influence would you expected Orchi to get from you...when your claims are clearly seen to be repeatly weak...biased... contradictory...n inconsistent...?

If this is perceived as discouragement, too bad. I see it as opening the eyes of many to see more clearly how to make informed decision.....unless you choose to ignore the plain facts I have stated.
Err...again Alex:)...where would those facts be?...weak references?...or biased opinions?...ahem...please track back to all of your own postings in here...which Orchi has amply hightlighted n questioned you for...or would you rather choose NOT to accept criticisms...n still be ignoring or evading questionaires...repeatedly...as professionally as a musical educator?

Anyway Galileo and Copernicus and others went through exactly the same situation when new ideas were thrown up that seems to go "head on" with traditional ideas (different subject matter only). Actually it is complementary but dunno why you want to see it as a conflict. So no problem lah. I can live with it. Let time tell.
Err...now this is not fair of you at all...whilst knowing very well that Orchi(parent)...are totally ignorant about what you may be referring to again here...

BUT please let Orchi try to understand about your musical 'learning' n 'discovery' methods...for an example...when infants first learn how to express(play) themselves n communicate...they see...hear(ear)...n then mimic...from what their parents do(googoo n gaagaa)...

n from the parents also they begin to learn n express in the mother tongue...n lets say in this case it would be English...err...much earlier before...they begin to recognise or learn...to express themselves n communicate...the nouns...verbs...grammar...etc.etc...later when they are first expose to 'theory(formal educations)...

Ahem...should this be applied similarly with your so called 'playbyear' methods...?...n IF SO...as you had once noted...it began even simultaneously with the creation n evolution of mankind...why is it 'contemplary' then???

Points have laid out over 6+ pages. You decide. You are a great researcher and thinker. I am sure you know how to find what you want.
So...from ALL that you have said n provided in here...you would actually expect it to be 'sufficient' n 'justifiable'...n would expect Orchi(parents) to stroll casually n confidently into your musical 'training' n 'discovery' centres...???

End of discussion for me. I have a concert to run now till 11th December. Any more input, if you want any (maybe not welcome), will be after that.
Err...with another attitude of yours like that...Orchi(parents) would NOT even consider for a minute that you would be 'educating' encouragingly...enough.

Good Luck!:)

Disclaimer n Caveat: Ahem...Orchi knows nothing about musical educations...but please do NOT even consider to interprete or take ALL of Orchi's words for it seriously...in here...as well as any of those found...in HERE... (http://www.usj.com.my/bulletin/upload/showthread.php?threadid=10322)

kwchang
30-11-2005, 11:52 PM
This thread is becoming obnoxious, at least to my eyes.
It should have been stopped much earlier - when I deleted the advert.

However, I think it served a purpose.

If I had deleted it earlier, it would look like I am biased to the 'boring' method currently in the mainstream music education syllabus which "forces" children and music students to take Piano exams (the topic of this thread, if you all remember?). Taking exams equates to reading music. LXDGRT says reading music kills the fun of music education. I am very sure a lot of musically educated people will disagree with you on that one stand that you have.

Letting LXDGRT have this stage is like giving him free advert space, you might say. Nay, I'd say he had tried too hard to stand his ground, and in the process, dug a big hole for himself. You see, sometimes this is like giving someone enough rope to hang himself. I think I have just seen a public lynching, and LXDGRT did it himself.

LXDGRT, I think you should reread this thread and see how it progressed. It did you more harm than good. In the end, I see no one supporting your stand. In fact, I see people becoming sceptical and falling back to the old methods.

Like you said, innovators like all the famous people in the past were ostracised for their new ideas. I shall let you feel all secure and warm with your opinion on that.

LXDGRT, I wish you success in your business venture. Really, and I am saying that sincerely because I do believe you do have valid points in your arguements. The only problem is the public prefers the ABRSM. Anyway, it is a free world. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It isn't any different here. I thank you for your tireless efforts to put your point across. Perhaps you need to polish up your arguements. Find out where it did put people off and correct that. You may still be able to improve your sales pitch. At this point, I think your arguements did more harm than good to yourself. I may be wrong but that is my observation.

Suddenly I realised that all the "fun" had gone. Mon had gone back to other threads which are more fun (am I right, Mon?). Maybe it is time for me to close this thread. What say the others?

mon
01-12-2005, 12:30 AM
Suddenly I realised that all the "fun" had gone. Mon had gone back to other threads which are more fun (am I right, Mon?). Maybe it is time for me to close this thread. What say the others?

:p Chang, I'm here..Err..Aye?

LXDGRT
01-12-2005, 08:00 AM
Any more input, if you want any (maybe not welcome), will be after that.

Bye.

Guys.... when I said the above, I mean about myself lah....meaning that since what I presented looked very controversial, any more input from me is not welcome. Did not expect that you took it the other way.

I reply this thread to explain what I know about enhancing the music learning experience but it looks like I am advertising myself. Maybe if I am not in that field, then it would be a different matter but then again, if I am not from this field, how to tell the details from experience and knowledge?

Like KW Chang has said, the fun is gone, even for me when I get questions that sounds so naive and assumptions made that even the earlier thread reveals otherwise. And coupled with the statement that what I said has been "discouraging" and "negative" when the actual intention is to show that there are better processes to enable your child to enjoy the learning experience better. If what I have to offer is not acceptable, and I have other things that require my time, better I spend the time elsewhere and come back when I am more available.

Yes, Orchi likes details and to supply her need, it takes time. No problem on that but have to wait till Dec 12 like I indicated. I also perceive that details of "my musical jouney" requested by her will make it sounds like I am advertising myself. So I preferred not to disccuss it here no matter how "safe" she indicated it is. After all, she is not the moderator.

OK lah. Chang, I am very zealous in what I do and yes, I believe this has rubbed off in this thread. Sorry that I have offended many of you.

Oh yes, Ski: All the seats have been taken up and allocated already. Sorry about that. Never expected so much support from the audience. Maybe next year if you are still interested. Next year's one may be more interesting for you where we will present "Tapestry Music" where modern music is woven in classical style to give you an interesting musical experience. But I can get an opening to slot you in, how do I contact you?

And yes folks, I will work on my argument style. Meantime, hope you can find the heart to cool off.

If you all still want to discuss facts and reference on this topic, am I still welcome to present it but only after 12th December?

fedup
01-12-2005, 08:13 AM
Taking piano exams is to raise the prestige of the parents & not in the interest of the child. Look at the number of times these good for nothing ladies brag about high grade their children are in their piano lessons,. Take a drive tru the east cost & see for yourselves how many parents can't afford even listen to music not about sending children for piano lessons. Yes all of you who are better off likes to brag about their children's achivement & that is the only reason why you tortue your childen by insisting they get higher grades for their piano exams. To all those stupid ladies who like to brag keep on the good piano grads & drive around with your expensive limos with the"boss" sitting at the back when you will refuse to let your husband to sit at the back seat though he had just came back from a tiring business trip from overseas. You are just a good driver to our "pendatangs" who is sitting behind you.the day will come when your children will look at you with hatred & spite when they realise how you got your riches & how you treat your fellow human beings.ask your "maid" what they think of you better if you ask the "maid" next door.They are not maids but servants. "Maids" are suppose to be trained & had gone to vocational colleges and not the "indon " sitting at the back if your limo who your husband will rather spend time with then with you. :rolleyes: :p

Ski
01-12-2005, 08:19 AM
Oh yes, Ski: All the seats have been taken up and allocated already. Sorry about that. Never expected so much support from the audience. Maybe next year if you are still interested. Next year's one may be more interesting for you where we will present "Tapestry Music" where modern music is woven in classical style to give you an interesting musical experience. But I can get an opening to slot you in, how do I contact you?




Hi,
No problem you could PM me for the next year's show, if i am still around.
Thanks for your contribution to this thread i found it very interesting it was very challenging and valid points to ponder.
I appreciate ppl who can play instruments and love to hear life music..so all the best to you for your concert.

Tq

idolfan
01-12-2005, 05:55 PM
Suddenly I realised that all the "fun" had gone. Mon had gone back to other threads which are more fun (am I right, Mon?). Maybe it is time for me to close this thread. What say the others?

why close? anyone been offended?

hmm I would think that forummers here are mature enough to decide what they want to read and not need the kind moderator to decide for them. from what i gather playbyear is not meant to be a replacement for "orthodox" piano lessons.. but as a complement...

SunwayKid
01-12-2005, 06:44 PM
If we chose to close all the threads where there are difference in opinions between forummers, obnoxious or otherwise, there might not be much left. Beside, Mon acknowledged her presence today to the statement. :)

Rather than killing it, shouldn't we just let it fade away.

adriene
01-12-2005, 06:52 PM
in my opinion, i think this thread can just be left as is to revive itself/die off naturally. it's not like it's hate speech.

i like to live and let live :o

kwchang
02-12-2005, 01:41 AM
Actually the decision to close is because I thought one person got too much "free advert" space. That's all. If some of you want it to remain, so be it. Thanks for your comments.

LXDGRT
06-12-2005, 06:23 PM
why close? anyone been offended?

hmm I would think that forummers here are mature enough to decide what they want to read and not need the kind moderator to decide for them. from what i gather playbyear is not meant to be a replacement for "orthodox" piano lessons.. but as a complement...

Ummm....that's a possiblity but not for me lar. I learnt how to take this a long time ago from the book "Selling The Wheel" by Jeff Cox and Steven Howards.


Actually the decision to close is because I thought one person got too much "free advert" space. That's all. If some of you want it to remain, so be it. Thanks for your comments.

Aisayman, in that case, better close it lah rather than let it be a thorn in the side. No problem for me. It's just history taking its course.

Anyway, for those interested, this thread is a living example of the story in the abovesaid book which is actually about the life cycle of ideas and products and the people around it. In this case, the pulse and sentiments of the various groups of people in this thread surfaced with at least 2 products: The Traditional Music Education system and the "Contemporary" Music Education System: One because it has been around for a long time and the other because it is relatively new.

In this highly entertaining book about how ideas and products go through the various stages of its life cycle, the author educates us with a very interesting story: Max, an Egyptian inventor created the wheel because he saw how unproductive it was to drag the huge stones via elephants to build the Pyramids. He thought that the world would jumped at his idea because it is so extremely useful. Wrong! He met with huge resistance and rejections when he showed the product to the powers that be. And Of course he was puzzled how something that could revolutionalize the industry could be rejected by all these people who need them!

You may say "This is ridiculous! How can those people be so stupid to reject the wheel?" but this happens almost ALL the time. If you trace back through history, you will find that the majority of life-changing inventions and the people behind it almost always met with ostracization. Even Marconi, the inventor of the radio, was accused of working with witchcraft and demons. However, eventually they went through the cycle illustrated and became famous for their inventions. Today we take all these "luxuries" for granted, thanks to their persistence and sacrifices of these people despite all the opposition. Your handphone, for example, uses the radio waves Marconi discovered. Ever appreciated how much he sacrificed to get this into your hands? Imagine how you can be affected if he had succumbed and hid his invention forever just because of some hecklers?

Anyway, continuing with the story, the author illustrated how Max, the wheel inventor, dealt with the 4 types of people in the life cycle of the product accordingly: the "early risk-takers", the "wait and see", the "follow the crowd" and the "die-hards" who will hang on to the "good old ways" no matter what. In this thread, we are the "pawns" acting out the same thing above in this Music Education cycle. There are inexorable forces that will move the music education industry back and forth like waves and the people in this forum are playing their roles accordingly. And history will take its course.

Anyway, Max took the rejections and ostracization in stride and practiced Donald Trump's philosophy: "Billionaires don't care what the odds are. We don't listen to common sense or do what's conventional or expected. We follow our vision, no matter how crazy or idiotic people think it is...." Eventually, Max owned an Egyptian public listed company selling all models of wheels plus other side inventions. Read the book and see how this thread weaves into the story. It was fun anyway.

adriene
06-12-2005, 08:25 PM
Max.... what a cool name for an ancient Egyption. Wheee! :D

LXDGRT
06-12-2005, 09:03 PM
Max.... what a cool name for an ancient Egyption. Wheee! :D

Just a name for the sake of the story lah. But when you read the book and understand how the story unfolds, you will know that it was there for a reason.

idolfan
07-12-2005, 11:50 AM
I have a concern about playbyear.. dunno much about it since I am musically pretty much ignorant.. If a child learns to play the piano from the beginning without learning how to sight read is he not at a disadvantage.. he still needs to know music theory so both methods are probably complementary.. my concern might be irrelevant coz I have to admit I didn't read in detail much of earlier threads ;)

LXDGRT
07-12-2005, 03:21 PM
I have a concern about playbyear.. dunno much about it since I am musically pretty much ignorant.. If a child learns to play the piano from the beginning without learning how to sight read is he not at a disadvantage.. he still needs to know music theory so both methods are probably complementary.. my concern might be irrelevant coz I have to admit I didn't read in detail much of earlier threads ;)

I hope this is not seen as "advertising" but more to clarify idolfan's concern.

To be very exact, both are complementary - much like the spoken languange and the written language are very important for complete literacy.

The playbyear part is very suitable for the practical everyday usage. The mainstream method is just like going to school to learn the spelling, grammar and sentence constructions and other linguistic skills. (However, for your information, in the later stages, the literacy part is also covered in playing music by ear. I dunno about other places but over here, I do cover the pertinent details.)

If you want the best for your child, give them both. One is good for creativity and spontaniety; the other is good for discipline and logic. If you have to choose one, then answer the question: "What is your purpose of sending the child for music lessons?" Then you will have a better idea how to think this through.

If you can't afford both or do not have time for both simultaneously, these can be covered one after another.

Does that help?

idolfan
09-12-2005, 04:50 PM
Thxs LX,, I think you answered in very clear terms. Will probably get in touch with you sometime in the near future.

LXDGRT
24-12-2005, 02:57 AM
Ladies & Gentlemen: I'm back!! Concert is over and am now planning for next year.

Since we are on this thread and since there are mixed opinions about "Is Exams Necessary", I would like to ask the participants here for their opinions about what they would like to see themselves or their children achieve when they take up music lessons.

Questions that I have in mind are as below. You can answer/discuss all or some as you feel you are in the capacity to answer/contribute. With your opinions, I hope that the next performance will be even more meaningful to as many people as possible:

1. If you invest on music education, what would you like to see as the end result?
2. Would you like to see yourself/your child on stage playing?
3. If yes, what kind of songs/tunes would you like yourself/your child like to play?
4. Would you like yourself/your child to play solo or ensemble?
5. Would you prefer to attend a concert to listen to
a. pure instrumental concert or
b. pure vocal performances or
c. singers playing their own accompaniment to back themselves up
d. orchestra performers (amatuers of course) accompanying the singer/choir
e. others (name your choices, of course: e.g. comedy, drama, dance, or a mix of everything)
6. How many performances in a night would you think is optimum for you in a night? 10 songs, 15 songs, 20 songs?
7. Should it be a pure recital or a sit-down dinner performance?

Hoping for your responses.

DreamChaser85
06-11-2008, 07:25 AM
During the years of Mozart and many famous composers there is no such thing as exams and gradings...This system had restrained many musical geniuses by pressure learning just for the sake of passing the exams, the system forces them to learn a piece, expression, tempo as an obligation, therefore, killing their passion and and natural talents...Music comes from the heart and not the metronome or the counts...Many Virtuoso pianists nowadays plays a piece differently in aspect of tempo and expression by individual so i guess ABRSM have to fail them? I have grade 8 friends whom admitted hating to play the piano and they would never touch it unless necessary...And there are grade 8's who played piano like piece of dung...(no offence) :p
Conclusion, is let your heart bring u to music ..there is no level for it and let the music teacher worry bout your techniques :D

LMei
07-11-2008, 10:52 AM
Just discover this thread when hubby told me bout it.

Personally I took exams till Grade 7. I had a great teacher and I enjoyed playing. But I play by the book only. :rolleyes: That means I could read notes.

Until I met hubby, who could play anything and could tell what key the music is being played, etc but he couldn't read so well. Seriously, he could just sit at the piano and played like a maestro. He could just listen to a new song, and play by ear. Whereas I need a book, else I can't play unless I memorise the piece by heart.

I admit I was put off and disappointed with myself that I couldn't play like him. So I slowly stopped playing and got him to play for me instead. :p

DreamChaser85
07-11-2008, 12:51 PM
:) what does your hubby plays? pop songs?

patrick
07-11-2008, 04:16 PM
I just know that when I try to play the piano reading notes, I play like a real idiot!! ;-)

lady-o-leisure
08-11-2008, 04:04 AM
When i was a kid, my mom forced me to go for piano lessons. So ok, here i am playing, and everything was fine until they figured i wasnt really reading the notes. I played by ear. I look blindly at the book lah.. and pretend i am looking at the notes. hahah..
After all that fussing about learning notes, another bomb was thrown. Exams!! Forget it! I'm outta here. So that was the end of the piano lessons.

My kids had guitar lessons coz they wanted it. Very very good teacher they had too. (I wonder how he's coping with fatherhood now)

Mat Bruce
12-11-2008, 12:23 AM
My children are taking piano lessons,I have taken them to KLCC PMO for Music appreciation and also a piano concerto.
It seems to sustain their interest so far. Is it advisable to let them jam in a band to have more fun? And where in Subang Jaya, can they find like-minded individuals?

jmbeh
12-11-2008, 06:36 PM
Just to share my experience like others here...

I finished Grade 8 both theory and practical. From Grade 1 - 6 ( before form 3) i was practically forced to learn...and i mean FORCED to learn. I hated piano and the piano teacher. I have to practice and play "stupid" master pieces. When not enough practice, it become obvious during the weekly lesson. My piano teacher will then use pencil and beat my fingers...damn painful & embarassing. Sometimes, i get teary. Even worse, my parents believe that the piano teacher was right....ya, she was famous, well known author. Wrote good books on how to pass ABRSM etc etc etc....at that age, I couldn't give a d*mn. But somehow, I pass all the exams (barely pass la)

After Grade 6, even though I still hate playing piano, I convinced my parents that i want to change piano teacher....also I think i became more mature (late bloomer :P) and started appreciating the skill and knowledge. The new piano teacher was young at heart...nice person and I got motivated to practice. She is flexible and not so famous. But she was understanding and knows what teenagers go through and how these baroque and classical pieces just don't gel with Nirvana and Green Day.

Well.... I passed with merit...quite close to distinction. I am not musically talented. I practice everyday diligently and finish it off proudly. I started taking up Guitar (self learned) and formed a rock band too for fun....So i guess, in someways, today i appreciate why it was important to be disciplined and strict. also why it was important to be patient and nurture, and let time do the work. Apply just the right amount of pressure.

You can bring your guitar/violin with you wherever u go....but not the piano. So because of that.....yes, today I no longer play it anymore. But I appreciated the knowledge and skill. One day if I am free and have the chance, I will definitely try it out again.